[elChupacabra!]

Here's a question that's probably pretty much the opposite of what most people ask - what is the safe limit to how LOW I load a round?

I'm working on getting some .45ACP handloads worked up using WW231 and Rainier 200gr copper plated RN bullets. Based on what I've gleaned, a max charge would probably be around 5.3 or 5.4gr for this combination, so I've worked up loads from 4.8-5.1gr to see what works.

The thing is, I'm not interested in supreme accuracy OR hard-hitting hunting ammunition, as this will almost never be used past 15 yards, and usually within 10 for practical shooting drills and only on paper targets. I just want an easy shooting practice .45ACP round.

I've got a Lee Auto Disk to use once I decide what charge I want to go with, and I see that, for WW231, it jumps up in .3 (or so) grain increments as you go through the disks. Although I haven't yet had a chance to shoot the workups I've already made through the gun, I'm now thinking that my best choice will be somewhere between 4.3gr, 4.6gr, 4.9gr, and 5.3gr, and, for a light load, I don't see why I'd want to go up to 5.3gr, so I may just stay down in the low-mid 4.x grain weights.

So here's the question - as long as it cycles my gun, is there any reason I shouldn't use the lower end of the spectrum? If accuracy is acceptable, is cycling the action the ONLY thing I need to be concerned about?

Also, if anyone has any experience with LOW powered rounds for 1911s using similar components (200gr lead / copper plated bullets, WW231), could you share how low yours can go and still work so I can have a ballpark idea?

Thanks everybody.

[TX1911fan]

I've read that if the load is too light the bullet may not exit soon enough, meaning you'd end up building up too much pressure, but I don't know if that is correct. I'm interested in this topic as well.

[Blakenzy]

I have loaded my .45acp rounds low enough to turn my pistol into a single shot (no case ejection and almost no slide movement), but with different components than yours- 230gr lead over 2.8gr of F.M.'s A2(an Argentinian powder). That's the lowest I went. I didn't measure velocity for it though. To put things in perspective 5.0gr of this powder gives me roughly 750fps with a 230gr bullet.

I don't think much wrong can come from extremely light loads so long as your bullets have enough power to always leave the barrel. A squib load that leaves a bullet in the barrel could be disastrous on your next shot.

[Steve C]

If you load too light your semi auto will not cycle. This can normally be corrected to a point with a lighter spring. As you reduce your charge you will likely see more powder residue and soot down the outside of your case from the low pressure.

Go way light and your bullet may not exit the barrel leaving a bore obstruction. If you jack another round in after that you could get a KB in the worst situation or a rung barrel (bulged) or just another bullet stuck behind the one already there. A stuck bullet usually happens when the powder is left out as the primer by itself can push the bullet a couple inches into the barrel.

[rcmodel]

As long as it will cycle the action on a 1911 with a standard 16 1/2 pound recoil spring, there is no danger of a stuck bullet or squib load. Auto pistols are more forgiving then revolvers in this regard, because the barrel & chamber are tightly sealed, with no barrel / cylinder gap for reduced load pressure to leak out.

No truth to the "too slow bullet building up too much pressure" in handgun calibers, or most standard rifle calibers.

The reduced load Kabooms are universally related to over-bore Magnum rifles using reduced loads of very slow-burning powder.

One theory, which I believe to be the cause, it that the primer and initial burn across the top of the powder charge laying in the huge case produces enough pressure to boot the bullet out of the case and into the rifling, where friction stops it.
Then the rest of the powder lights off a split-milisecond later, and you basically have yourself a pipe bomb.

The other theory is powder "detonation" of the reduced load.
The problem with that one is, no one has ever been successful in getting it to happen in a ballistics lab.

Smokeless powder simply cannot support a detonation pressure wave in small quantities.

If it could, you could stick a blasting cap & fuse in a 1 pound can or 8 pound keg of rifle powder and make yourself a very powerful bomb.

But you can't, because it simply will not detonate in small quanities like a high explosive, no matter how badly you mistreat it!!

rcmodel

[MutinousDoug]

Peak pressure in a 45ACP probably occurs before the round has entirely left the chamber, so a light load that functions in your gun is safe to use as far as pressure is concerned. You need only worry about a round loaded so lightly that it fails to exit the bore so it's unwise to download much below the lowest published load you can find for your bullet/powder combination.
I've loaded a 200gr lead bullet over 4.2gr of W231 for a velocity of 668 fps (ave) in my SA Gov't model although 4.5-4.8grs is a much more accurate load for Bullseye at 25yds. Lyman Cast Bullet handbook lists 4.0gr of W231 as a minimum for a 200 gr lead bullet. That should be safe with plated 200gr bullets in your gun.
HTH,

Doug

[elChupacabra!]

Thanks everybody for the input.

Based on what everybody's told me, I might try to load up a 4.3gr charge and see what happens. Since I'm just a fledgling reloader, I'm a big fan of staying way away from any extremes, whether they be max charges or under charges. I think 4.3gr should be pretty safe, but I'll still check the barrel after each round for the first 5 or so shots to make sure they're all making it out the end ;)

[jfh]

In my SA 1911 with a BarSto barrel, 4.8 gr. of 231 under a 200 LSWC runs almost exactly at 800 fps with very low ES and SDs and is extremely accurate. Like you, I want an easy-shooting target load--and at about 820 fps, one can easily have a PF 160+, which works around here for club competition. You will need to tweak the load slightly based on LOA needs for reliable function in your 1911.

Typically, I load about 4.9 to 5.1. With this load, a standard recoil spring works just fine with a clean gun. Unless you want to set up a bullseye 1911, I would not recommend dropping below 4.8 grains of 231.

I load on Lee gear--and if you do not have an Adjustable Charge Bar, get one. Using one really the only way to fine-tune your load--and much more convenient, IMO. 231 meters just fine in it.

Jim H.

[Shoney]

You need enough pressure to obturate the case.
OBTURATION
The momentary expansion of a cartridge case against chamber walls which minimizes the rearward flow of gases between the case and the chamber wall when the cartridge is fired. Some also include the expansion of lead bullets to seal the gas in the barrel as part of this definition.

If you are shooting lead, the bullet must be of sufficient diameter to or must expand to seal the gases from escaping down the barrel. Otherwise the bullet is basically wabbling down the barrel! That never helps accuracy.

I have always fournd medium to medium high loads most accurate with lead, a few at max, but never at the low end.

[Walkalong]

Shoney makes a really good point that many don't think about in pistols. The case is all that protects us from hot, high pressure gases from shooting. We seem to be very well aware of it in rifles, but we tend to overlook it in revolvers and autos pistols.

It also makes a sooty mess when there is not enough pressure to expand the case enough to seal the chamber well. :)

[Dave R]

FWIW, Speer No. 13 says that for semi-auto pistols, often the most accurate load is one that will just cycle the action.

So they apparently think its fine to go low enough to just cycle the action.

[SlamFire1]

As long as the load cycles the pistol, you can go very low. I have talked to Bullseye shooters who claimed that occasionally they could see the bullets on the way to the target. That is slow! Anyway, with a 200 LSWC, I got reliable function with a target load at 740 fps, and with a 230 experimental load, 650 fps.


Kimber Custom Classic M1911

200 LSWC 4.0 grs Bullseye Mixed cases CCI300
11-Sep-05 T = 88 °F
Ave Vel = 738.9
Std Dev = 10.34
ES = 37.98
High = = 755.8
Low = 717.8
N = 32


230 LFN Bull-X 3.5 grs Bullseye Mixed Brass WLP
8-Jan-06 T = 61 °F
OAL 1.20" taper crimp .469"

Ave Vel = 643.6
Std Dev = 14.07
ES = 63.63
High = 679.9
Low = 616.3
N = 32
shot a little high Pistol cycled each shot

[Walkalong]

600 FPS with a 230 Gr pill from a 5" 1911 will cycle the action and exit the barrel with no problems. I was trying Zip and started low. I got an average of 609 FPS with a Berrys 230 Gr RN. It was very accurate as well (http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=50297&d=1167697005). Very light though. :)

[ForneyRider]

I would not suggest doing this.

Few weeks ago, I shot some 200gr lead out of my 1911 with WLP primer and no powder.

Went Ploop! Some of the bullets didn't make the length of the target. We found them on the ground.

I would not suggest doing this.

[Walkalong]

Wow, 42 FPS maybe? :D

[rcmodel]

I woulda bet they would have stuck in the barrel!

I tried a .380 ACP with a jacketed bullet and no powder as a test not too long ago.

The primer would only drive the bullet deep enough for another round to chamber behind it.

rcmodel

[jfh]

I'm with you, rcmodel. You have to wonder just how many rounds had been through the barrel in ForneyRider's 1911.

Maybe he loaded 200-gr .358s--

Jim H.

[fireflyfather]

I've read that if the load is too light the bullet may not exit soon enough, meaning you'd end up building up too much pressure, but I don't know if that is correct. I'm interested in this topic as well.

Nope. Only real problems here safety wise have already been covered: Bullet gets lodged in barrel, then next round blows up the gun (usually a problem where you forget to charge case, but next round is full-house...if you load them all low, it will be a LESS powerful explosion, but probably still dangerous).

Other problem is very slow powders with low charge density (powder vs empty air in case) in a big case. This just isn't going to happen with fast burning pistol/shotgun powders. That's one reason that a lot of people use pistol powders for reduced rifle loads using cast bullets. Odds are the gun would stop cycling LONG before you could lodge a bullet in the barrel, assuming you didn't have an empty case in there. This is much more of a problem in revolvers or bolt action rifles when down-loading cartridges.

Some people have experimented with using very low charges of very fast powders in rifles to get subsonic, or even "suppressed"-equivalent ammo. That's where you can really get into some trouble. If you go that route, never use jacketed bullets, and keep a brass rod handy to poke out the stuck bullets. Also, whenever you are doing load development on a reduced load, it's a good idea to fire the rounds one at a time, and VISUALLY INSPECT THE BORE to determine the bullet left the muzzle for each shot that you cannot confirm hit the target. Once a load is proven safe under similar conditions (same components, same weapon, same air temperature, etc), then you can load it just a hair higher, and feel confident shooting more than one at a time.

[fireflyfather]

I'm with you, rcmodel. You have to wonder just how many rounds had been through the barrel in ForneyRider's 1911.

Maybe he loaded 200-gr .358s--


Probably a bit hard to seat those bullets j/k. Still, undersized soft lead bullets MIGHT do that in an oversize/worn out barrel. I'm with RCmodel on them sticking, though, jacketed or not.

[Walkalong]

Primer only in a revolver will absolutely not propel them out of the barrel. I am not sure about an auto, but it seems like it would not. Like I said. 42 FPS, maybe? From a smooth bore! :uhoh:

Heck, primers and squib loads will often stick a bullet.

[Kosh75287]

I don't know how much time for experimentation you have, but I tried this:

1.) Reduce the powder charge using a 200 grain bullet, until it will NOT reliably cycle.

2.) Replace the 200 grain bullet with a 230 grain bullet and try for function. The heavier bullet will likely create enough more pressure to operate your slide.

Since you're already starting out with 200s, you might try tapering the charge with 185s, then going to the 200s.