[351 WINCHESTER]

I don't have much experience with shotguns, but my 18 year old son wants to go duck hunting with my oldest son. As always money is a factor, but I want to get him a good gun.

Any sugguestions?

[Kansas Bound]

I do not know if you could do any better than an remington 870 wingmaster. I would shy away from any 3 1/2 gun as I feel they are unnecessary.

[Zip7]

The cheapest model Remington 870 (Express?) will serve you well for years and years. I have one that has been a workhorse, and has ridden home from a hunt disassembled in a bucket in the back of the truck a number of times - has never let me down.

If he's going in salt/brackish water marsh, no matter what you get it's going to look the worse for wear after a season, so don't spend extra just for that.

I would agree that the 3.5" models are unnecessary.

[chas08]

IMHO buy a Remington Express Super-Mag Synthetic. While I agree that the 3.5's are not needed in most cases. It's nice to have the capability if the need ever arises. The cost difference is minimal between the super-mag and the standard magnum. And since it's a pump, you don't have the feed issues that sometimes come with semi-autos. My wife and I each have one for our "Duck" gun. Both have performed flawlesly, mine for ten years hers for about four. We mostly shoot 2 3/4" steel shot ammo at duck. But Its nice when hunting where geese are known to roam to have a few 3.5 T-shot shotshells in your bag. It makes it almost a 10 ga. Not quite, but almost. ;) :)

[Zip7]

where geese are known to roam...

I was going to say that the 3 1/2 should only be considered when you specifically go after geese a lot.

I've hunted ducks & geese most all of my life in the lower MS flyway - in the delta and in farm country, on big water, and in the woods. Most of the hunting I have done has been for puddle ducks (Mallards, Pintails, Gadwall, Teal etc.) over decoys with calls, and amongst the people I've hunted with the most, pass shooting ducks is about as sporting as running down armadillos with a sportscar. There are some species of ducks and some locations where pass shooting is all there will ever be, but most of my cronies would usually pass on those in favor of hunting over decoys for proper decoying ducks that respond to the call. As such, almost all of our shooting is at closer ranges, and the only long range shots ever taken are to try and bring down an obviously wounded duck.

We use mostly 2 3/4 shells, and it's common to load a pump gun with 2 x 2 3/4 and a 3" for the third shot, because shooting a flaring mallard in the hind end requires a little more oomph. When there are two load weights in shell length - e.g. 1 1/4 oz vs. 1 3/8 oz loads in 3", we always shoot the lighter weight load on the assumption that it might be faster and knock down better. No scientific proof. Typically we shoot #2s or even BB's at ducks, depending on what kind of place we are going to.

As to geese, in some of the places I have hunted it's not uncommon to see far more geese in a day than ducks. Very common to see geese in the tens of thousands in a day of hunting. Most geese are out of shotgun range no matter what gun you have, and stay that way, although depending on the weather or good luck, you may get some decent shots at them some days. We've killed as many as 25 to 35 in one morning, although toting that many geese any distance isn't fun - and neither is plucking them. Most of the people who opt for the 3.5" 12 or the 10 ga. down here hunt in the Delta where they commonly see thousands of geese every day, and have shot at many geese out of range with no success. I guess the 3.5 extends your range somewhat, but it has never seemed worth it to me. Geese can be pretty hard to bring down with steel shot, even if they are in range, and in the old days, people sometimes shot at them with 3" mag #4 lead buckshot. I've seen my best friend pop one that I wouldn't have shot at with a 870 with a cut down 20' barrel and 3" #2 shot - so it's partly a matter of good shooting and partly hitting them in the head.

Anyway, in many years of duck hunting, I've never really felt much need for the 3.5, and they never even had it for most of my years... It has a longer receiver, and a longer stroke, and I guess is a bit heavier too, all of which are undesirable to me. So unless I was a dedicated full time goose hunter, I would pass on it.

As for type of shotgun, whatever you get will require a lot of care and cleaning, because proper duck hunting is hard on a gun. Plenty of water and mud. Mine has been underwater numerous times, and covered in mud, dirt, etc... cleaned with a waterhose on occasion. Most of my hunting has been done with an 870 Express that I paid $175 new for, and my best buddy has the same gun, although he paid $50 bucks for his because it had a blown up barrel which he cut to 20" and had the chokes reinstalled. They have served us well. Some of the guys I hunt with are Browning Auto-5 ists (that's a religion), and they spend more time cleaning and tinkering with theirs than you would with a cheap pump gun, naturally. One of my friends has a BPS, which I dearly love to shoot, but it malfunctions more often than the 870's. Another of my friends has a well used Beretta Auto - which is absolutely a Cadillac of a gun and has proven itself time and again, is a joy to shoot and easy to hit with, but also costs lots of $$. I know people that have the Benelli as well, but don't have personal experience with them. I have an older field grade Citori which I carry occasionally on fair weather days, and I like it, but they are even more $$ now.

[cota]

For a new gun Baikal mp153 /remington 453 spartan :)

[chas08]

Anyway, in many years of duck hunting, I've never really felt much need for the 3.5, and they never even had it for most of my years... It has a longer receiver, and a longer stroke, and I guess is a bit heavier too, all of which are undesirable to me. So unless I was a dedicated full time goose hunter, I would pass on it.

The 870 Magnum and the Super-Magnum weigh the same in respective barrel lengths and have the same pump stroke length, for a mere $47 more on the MSRP (even less in the stores). As you said money was somewhat of an issue, perhaps a Mossberg 500 synthetic would be in order. They are even lower in price and accomodate 3" shells and have a top tang safety which is really nice if your a lefty.:)

[younganddumb]

I got a moss 535 ATS no problems with it at all picked it up for 275 new great gun even use it for some trap now and then super light to recoil in my opinion is less then a 870

[adam_oz]

I would have to say my choice would be the benili Nova. I have one and have had it for about 5 years and i have never had a prob. I wish i could say that about my 870. Not to say an 870 wont work just fine.

A nova will shoot 3 1\2 in shells and is a synthetic material that i think is more durable then the 870. In the gun store i work in, we have sold about 1,000 of the novas over the years and we have only had to return 2, one the guy ran over it with his ATV and the other melted in a fire. They are about the same price as a 870 maybe just a lil more. They also have a button that alows you to cycle the shell out of the barrel and not put a shell from the mag. back into the barrel, a handy feature that i have used a few times. And they are a lot easyer the clean and take apart. Now that i have my nova, i havent shot my 870 once.

[T-Ray]

Go with a rem. 870 Express if you can't spend the extra on the wingmaster. Get synthetic since he's going duck hunting. Benelli novas are good too, but for more money than an 870 express. The expresses aren't quite as, i don't want to say good, but smooth as the wingmasters, but either will last many many years

[627PCFan]

+1 on the Nova, reliable and takes any 12 gauge ammo made.

You don't always need a 3 1/2 inch chamber, but just in case you would you have it.

[ArmedBear]

a synthetic material that i think is more durable then the 870

LOL

No doubt a plastic receiver doesn't rust as easily as steel, but it's probably not more durable.

WRT the Super Magnum, you do sacrifice some of the bulletproof simplicity of the standard 870 AFAIK. I don't think that it's necessarily the best idea to get a 3.5" gun unless you plan to use it with 3.5" shells.

Frankly, if someone has little experience with shotguns, he will probably be just wasting really expensive ammo, trying to hit faraway geese. 3" will work fine for now, and Hevi-Shot or similar 3" will work for an occasional long shot. Throwing more steel shot into the air doesn't help much with range; throwing heavier-than-lead shot can -- if and only if the shooter has built and practiced the skills necessary to hit a faraway, fast-moving target.

Personally, I'd get the cheapest serviceable pump gun that fits the shooter and works with steel shot.

I have a few shotguns, but the 870 Express shoots as well as any of them and it's not a horrible tragedy if it gets covered in mud.:)

[240SX]

Dude Remington 870, I have 2 - 1 for bird hunting and 1 for duck hunting! I LOVE TO DUCK HUNT, and I just happen to live in one of the best duck hunting areas in Alabama (SHIBBY). I have the Remington 870 Express Super Magum Waterfoul Camo (with duck blind Mossy Oak finish). I've out shot guys with their fancy Benelli's with that gun. I've even dropped it in the mud, swhished in through the water in the blind and it kept shooting the rest of the day, like a CHAMP! That's my suggestion. Can't go wrong with the Remington 870. If you don't want the camo finsih...the 870 Express is a great gun too, if your want something that looks more traditional.

(I use the 870 Express Super Magnum Camo (Mossy Oak finish) for bird hunting.)

[ctgmi]

This is what I think are the most important criteria for your son’s needs.
The gun should fit him. If price is an issue stick with a pump action.
Don’t purchase anything that either you or you son will be afraid to scratch/get dirty; duck hunting is hard on guns. If you take a look at our camp during duck opener you would see some nice doubles along with some beat up Rem 870’s, Winchester 12, and Browning A5’s. The pretty one’s are for grouse in the afternoon and of course the eyesore’s make the mourning trip to the swamp for the ducks. Also I have never found a need for the 3 ½” shells.

[cjanak]

I have a Beretta Xtrema2. Even with the optional "kick-off" recoil reducer and the advantages of a semi-auto with respect to felt recoil, you can still feel those 3.5" turkey loads. Granted, the 3.5" duck loads do feel pretty light with my gun. But I can only imagine big 3.5" loads would pack quite a wallop in a standard pump. You're more man than I (or more something in any case :)) if you're willing to deal with that.

So for somebody like me that's not a big fan of recoil I might not bother to have a 3.5" capability unless I was going go with a semi-auto. And heck, I shot more ducks using my grandfather's 20 gauge Remington 1100 two years ago than I did last year using my Xtrema2. Then again, if it's only an extra $40 or so than maybe it's worth it to have the 3.5" option just in case.

I think it's tough to argue against the Rem 870, as I feel it has an excellent rep of being a reliable, affordable duck gun. Mossberg makes some solid guns, the Browning BPS is solid, and I'm sure there are plenty of other reasonable options. Must buddy bought a Charles Daily pump for $250 and shot better last season that he ever did with his 870. I suppose the shooter does most of the work eh, so as long he takes good care of it your son will probably be just fine with most of the pumps produced by major manufacturers these days.

And ctgmi is right on... probably fit is the most important thing anyway... don't stress too much about brand... if it fits well and it's a company you've heard of, probably you'll be fine (if you're looking at pumps, anyway).

[chas08]

WRT the Super Magnum, you do sacrifice some of the bulletproof simplicity of the standard 870

How is simplicity sacrificed? I'm curious to know. I've owned both and don't see the sacrifice. For the record I'm not that big a fan of 3.5 12's. If I'm going to use that much gun I'd rather use a 10. :confused:

[ArmedBear]

Isn't the bolt of the Super Magnum more complex, instead of being a simple block of metal, so that it can cycle 3.5" shells in the same action length?

[chas08]

It's essentially the same. I don't know if the inner parts will interchange. But with the exception of a little extra machine work to accomodate the dust shield on the back of the bolt they look the same to me. I like the way Remington integrated the 3.5 in chambering into the 870 because they didn't add any weight, receiver length, or pump stroke length. I rarely shoot a 3.5 in. shell but I like knowing my duck gun will digest anything I feed it.

[publiuss]

Any iteration of the Remington 870 you wish. The 870 fits most people well and is unbeleivebly tough. Those that have heard my 870 story before, please bear with me. 10 years ago or so a buddy of mine and me were hunting in the floodwaters of the MS. river in Washington Co. MS. The river was 23ft. above floodstage. We shot our limit quickly, nothingm but Wigeons, I mean they were pouring in. We had my little 14' jon boat tied to a tree w/absolutely no camo and maybe 2 dozen dekes. When we got ready to leave, I reached back to pull the burlap off the outboard (okay I lied about the camo, but the only camo was over the motor). Sorry, I digress, I reached back to pull the burlap off and I heard a plop of something hitting the water. Yep, the old 870 was sitting on the burlap. So we tied a decoy to the tree so we could go back and get it when the river fell. (Yeah right). Three weeks later we decided we would go look for it since the river had fallen some. Got to the spot and the deke was way up in the tree so I got out and started feeling around in the 2.5 ft. water. Found it. No rust, parkerizing appeared to have worn in spots. Took it back to the shop, removed the wood and put it in the oven on low and sprayed diesel all on the metal. Wiped away exces diesel and reinstalled wood after dry. Hunted w/it that afyternoon and still hunt w/it till this day. Sorry for the bandwidth usage but I love that story about the most useful hunting shotgun made.

[Zip7]

Publiuss - I do a lot of hunting just south of there in Issaquena County.

[Frog48]

For the money, both the Remington 870 Express and Mossberg 500 are good choices.

My duck gun is a Mossberg 835... its a great gun, but I've never needed the 3.5" capability. My backup is a Mossberg Maverick, and its a good gun, and I replaced the synthetic with wood, essentially making it very similar to the 500.

[MCgunner]

I do not know if you could do any better than an remington 870 wingmaster. I would shy away from any 3 1/2 gun as I feel they are unnecessary.

Prefer my Mossberg. I've hunted ducks for 41 years now and had an 870, sold it. I don't like the crossbolt safety, awkward as I have to reach under the trigger guard to turn it off. I put up with that on my Winchester 1400 cause I like the gun, but I'm not in love with 870s. Too, the expresses will rust before your eyes in the salt marsh, junk. My camo mossberg resists rust a lot better and even after 20 years in the salt marsh, it's a little scared up, but not rusty.

I am thinkin' about getting a 3.5" capable gas gun for geese, though. Hevishot is getting ridiculous and T shot is best out of a 3.5" gun. If I get a 3.5" gun, it'll be a gas gun, probably a 935 Mossberg cause of the tang safety and in camo for the rust resistance. It'll also shoot 3" steel on ducks. This year for geese (don't hunt geese as much as ducks), I think I'll try some 3" Remington hevi steel in BB. It's more affordable. If I like the way it patterns and brings 'em down, I might just stick with the old Mossy for a while longer.

A 2 3/4" or 3" gun is all you'll need on ducks, but if geese are on the menu, you might think about an 835 Ultimag or something. I mean, it'll still shoot 2 3/4 and 3" loads and has the versatility. It's heavy and the skeet snobs wouldn't like it, but hey, it's a WATERFOWL gun, right? You don't need a 6 lb gun in the duck marsh. In fact, your shoulder doesn't WANT a 6 lb gun in the duck marsh!

[Ash]

My duck gun is a Mossberg 500. It replaced a perfectly good Remington 870 express (the 500 has the same safety as my Savage 333, so it's easier to use them both). They both make great duck guns.

Ash

[EHCRain10]

if your going to be near salt the mossberg would be my suggestion, the aluminum receiver will resist the salt much better
never hunted with anything more than 3inch and it works for me

[romeo212000]

A 3.5 inch shell is completely unnecessary for waterfowl hunting. The physics of efficiency involving shot size and pattern show a 2 3/4 inch shell or even a 3 inch shell will throw a much better pattern than a 3.5 inch shell

[627PCFan]

"A 3.5 inch shell is completely unnecessary for waterfowl hunting. The physics of efficiency involving shot size and pattern show a 2 3/4 inch shell or even a 3 inch shell will throw a much better pattern than a 3.5 inch shell"

Sometimes sheer volume trumps pattern-

[chas08]

A 3.5 inch shell is completely unnecessary for waterfowl hunting.

Romeo, I couldn't possibly disagree more. And I'm not that big a fan of 3.5's but they do have their niche.

Sometimes sheer volume trumps pattern-

JRS, I couldn't agree more. Especially wth BBB or T-shot.

[MCgunner]

Quote:
Sometimes sheer volume trumps pattern-


JRS, I couldn't agree more. Especially wth BBB or T-shot.



Yep, geese NEED that big stuff and 3" just don't hold enough. 10 gauges are better, but not as versatile, sorta goose or turkey specialty guns.

[ArmedBear]

Yep, geese NEED that big stuff

Even with heavier-than-lead shot?

I know that stuff is expensive, but if it will only be used occasionally for geese, that's not such an issue.

Of course, someone who hunts geese a few times a week for the whole season will want the cheaper option of steel. But do you need a 3 1/2" chamber if you only plan to shoot 20 rounds of the stuff a year, and therefore can use the expensive, dense stuff?

[MCgunner]

That's what I've been doing up until now, but have you checked the price of ANYTHING with tungsten in it lately????? Sheesh, I ain't rich! I'm going to try Remington hevi steel on geese this season and see if it's worth anything. Federal Tungsten Iron and hevi shot is awesome, but there ain't enough gold left in Fort Knox to buy a 10 round box of the crap. :D I'm lookin' at it from a long term expense angle here. I don't intend to quit hunting waterfowl just because I'm in a wheelchair or somethin'. :D Besides, I need a reason to buy another shotgun. Don't mess with my head here. ROFL!

I think, for the OP, getting a gun that is capable of 3 1/2" right off the bat might we wise. I like the Remington Spartan SPR453 which can shoot 2 3/4 to 3 1/2". But, I have a 2 3/4" gun already, so I'm thinking Mossberg 935 (3 or 3.5").

[ArmedBear]

I wonder what the fine would be is you just said "screw it" and used lead?:evil:

[cjanak]

This Delta Waterfowl (http://www.deltawaterfowl.org/magazine/2005_01/01_shooting.php) report examines the lethality of various shotgun cartridges. By their chosen criteria, you do get an advantage with 3.5" shells, especially Hevi-shot and the like. But this advantage is mostly at longer range and is fairly marginal. And the study shows that plenty of 3" and 2.75" shells do the job quite well.

I use 3.5 inch Hevi-Shot shells for duck hunting because I only get out a few times a year and I want to maximize my limited opportunity. In this case, I'm willing to pay some extra cash on ammo for even a relatively small advantage.

That being said, the first year I duck hunted I used a 20 gauge 3" and I performed about the same. For the most part, I tend to think that being a good shot (and having a little luck) is probably more important than your gear... granted the gun needs to fit you well of course and their are limits to how far one should take this logic (I'm not advocating using .410 for goose and .22 short for Moose!). My hunting buddies use only 3" and 2.75" shells yet they usually do better than I... because they are better shots of course.

[MCgunner]

I wonder what the fine would be is you just said "screw it" and used lead?

Um, I'll let YOU find out. :D I've been checked by FEDERAL wardens before where I hunt. You never know, and they just materialize like they have a star trek transporter or something. LOL

I don't use hevi shot on ducks over decoys. I generally take my shots a lot closer than I can most times on geese and the birds ain't that hard to kill with number 3 steel from either 2 3/4" or 3". The new fasteel from Kent or even Winchster Xpert high speed (which doesn't extract 100 percent in my Mossy) works fantastic. It shoots a lighter charge at higher velocity and patterns nice. I also use 3" 20 from time to time, especially in early teal season. But, 12s are best for ducks and mandatory on geese.

[ImARugerFan]

I use a mossberg 835. It comes camo, which is a nice bonus for waterfowl hunting, plus it takes 3.5" in case you ever feel the need to use them on goose or turkey.

[Zip7]

I wonder what the fine would be is you just said "screw it" and used lead?

Least they would do is take your first born child here. At a minimum, you would have to go to federal court, and down here on the Gulf Coast the fines for being unfair to a duck are high.

I use steel shot, and most big duck hunters I know have a separate shell bag so they will never get any lead shotshells near their duck hunting stuff. They will check you, and if you get caught, you don't send money in - you go to court, and get yours along with the rest of the duck persecutors.

It wouldn't surprise me if there was a team of Federal duck cops checking into your background right now just because you said that. NSA probably sniffs web traffic and reports to them. Be careful...

[Ash]

And you can loose your shotgun, your boat, the truck that brought you...

Ash

[auschip]

Most of my Duck & Goose hunting is done with a Mossberg Maverick. I haven't found the need for 3.5 inch shells, but some folks like them.

On a side note, I really like the Black Cloud ammo by Federal. Last time I bought some it was cheaper then the heavier stuff, and performed similar. I haven't checked prices on it lately, but will buy some more this year I think.

I didn't have the state stamp one year (My fault, I went into Academy and asked for everything I needed for duck hunting. I didn't verify that they did include everything). Not having a $5 stamp cost me $375. The warden said he was taking it easy on me. I imagine a Federal violation would be a magnitude worse.

[ArmedBear]

And you can loose your shotgun, your boat, the truck that brought you...

http://www.remington.com/images/products/firearms/shotgun/870_exp_syn%5B1%5D.jpg
http://diaryofa1l.mikeshecket.com/oldtruck.jpghttp://www.toysplash.com/images/products/101508_L.jpg

I think one could get all those things for less than the price of some of the high-end non-toxic shot...:D

[Zip7]

Armedbear... I'll grant you that boat is pretty cheap, but you could buy a hundred high end doubles for the price of that outboard motor.

I've never seen anyone use the expensive non-tox shot down here. Most big duck hunters buy steel by the case every season. If you use big enough steel shot, it works fine. A guy who is a great shot can use #4 steel - me I use #2 or even BB shot on decoying ducks. For the most part, people aren't pass shooting ducks in this part of the country.

[big_bang]

Beretta Xtrema II...awesome

[auschip]

Beretta Xtrema II...awesome

Might be a bit spendy considering the original post. Cheapest I have seen those is $1300.

[publiuss]

Many good opinions have been offered, but I need to defend some of the comments on the 870 Express. It is what it is, a bargain priced version of one of, if not the most reliable repeaters ever made. Yes the finish is not wonderful. That is why you can buy the Express for hundreds less than the mechanically identical Wingmaster. Metel finishing, especially blueing is expensive. If the finish is really a sticking point go w/the SP version if they still make it. It had real parkerizing and is very rust resistant, see my post above about dropping it in the water. Or buy the Express and send it to someone like Birdsong and have it teflon finished, that's where mine went after it's bath 10 years ago. The finish has held up very well, requires no oiling or lube. I expect the finish, and the gun to last my lifetime. I stick by my recommendation to get the 870.

[351 WINCHESTER]

Thank's for everyone's input. Looks like it's going to be an 870.

[cota]

The 870 will be a good choice to be fair, in the express version they are good value.
One point regards the chamber legnth you chose, i shoot a fair few geese on foreshores and i use 3.5 inch cases very rare. Mostly using fast 2 3/4 1 oz loads of steel and 3 inch 1 1/4 oz loads of steel. or a wide variety of Bismuth reloads.
So i agree with the coments that you can get by and you dont need a 3.5 inch to a point, but remember you dont need to load a 3.5 inch in a 3.5 inch gun, but you do have the option if you want to for whatever reason.
And more importantly you have in a 3.5 inch gun a higher proof preasure to load to higher limits of performance whatever the case legnth you chose to shoot. :) You do need that option in a waterfowling gun esspecialy if it is to be a dedicated waterfowl weopon;)

[45crittergitter]

870 is always a good choice, but check out the Benelli Nova and SuperNova also.

[Radical120]

Can't argue about the 870 but an option might be a Franchi I-12 - bought one last year - will hold 3 inch shells - intertia driven - for the most part made by Benelli but significanty less expensive.

[Zip7]

Thank's for everyone's input. Looks like it's going to be an 870.

Congrats - the Remington 870 is without a doubt the finest shotgun I've ever paddled a boat with.

[chas08]

Congrats - the Remington 870 is without a doubt the finest shotgun I've ever paddled a boat with.

(LOL) They make a darn fine "Mud Crutch" too. :D

[romeo212000]

"Quote:
A 3.5 inch shell is completely unnecessary for waterfowl hunting.

Romeo, I couldn't possibly disagree more. And I'm not that big a fan of 3.5's but they do have their niche.


Quote:
Sometimes sheer volume trumps pattern-

JRS, I couldn't agree more. Especially wth BBB or T-shot."

Not if your throwing flyers right out of the muzzle. You clearly do not have an understanding of the physics of a shotgun load. When all of that shot is stacked on top of each other it reqires a great deal more force to throw it at an acceptable speed. This in turn puts a great deal more pressure on the shot cylinder (shape of how the shot is packed in the shell) which will in turn not only throw a less efficeint pattern but you will likely get less shot on target because there are more flyers that never even come close to the target. So of your large amount of shot that is stacked in that 3.5" shell you might be getting the same amount on target as a 3" shell and with a much poorer pattern. Volum doesnt do you any good if it flies off as soon as it leaves the barrell.

[chas08]

You clearly do not have an understanding of the physics of a shotgun load.

Well you are correct, I am no physics major, But I can read a pattern board and mine works fine with a pattern master choke. And if your against spending a $100 to test a choke, screw an I/C choke into it and shoot it at 50yds and get back to me. Most folks "Over Choke" large steel and then come up with all kinds of scientific reasons why it isn't any good. The long shot string is inherent to the 12 ga. 3.5, the pattern master minimizes this to an extent the I/C is a close second choice. As for me, I prefer a 10 ga. with large steel shot. The pattern is more square, I use an I/C choke in it with T-Shot and one pellet will pass through a Snow Goose at 100 yds and one pellet is all it takes. ;):)

[romeo212000]

THe pattern board does not reflect what I am talking about. There is an excellent article on this very subject in the latest issue of Shooting Sportsman I believe where someone using a very very high speed camera captures a shot of a load similar to what we are talking about right out of the muzzle of a barrel which reveals flyers developing at the very beginning of the shot.

[chas08]

As previously stated. What choke is being used? Flyers can be minimized with proper choking for a given shot size. And I agree the pattern board doesn't tell the whole story, because it doesn't move. A 12 ga.three inch Winchester T-shot shot shell has 65 pellets. A 3.5 has 82. What percentage of the pattern is lost? you will most certainly have more pellets working for you, If you've done your homework on the pattern board. If a flock of Geese flies over and the one you are pulling lead on falls when fired on. And the one two birds over and three birds back folds also. Are you going to complain that the physical properties of your pattern aren't up to snuff? :D I don't read a lot of technical data anymore because it's all filtered to play out to prove the writers opinion, is the only correct one. And to say that the 3.5 has no place in waterfowling because of an article you read, seems terribly "closed minded". And all I'm doing is simply exercising my right to disagree. :)

[romeo212000]

That is not why I formed that opinion. I had that opinion long before this article was released. The article just proves my point. I am not saying 3.5 inch shells can kill birds but based on the physics and ballistics are really no more effective than a 3 inch shell, so why pay the extra price? You can do what ever you want and justify it however you want as this is in fact a mostly free country. I just don't see the value in it. Just excercising my right to disagree.

[MCgunner]

I've shot at a LOT of geese with BB steel at 40 yards and had a LOT of frustration. Hevishot helped solve my headaches until the last couple of years when it more'n doubled in price. It was high, anyway, at about $1.40- $2.00 a shot. Well, got me a 10 gauge comin'. I ain't messin' around anymore, dangit! :D 10 gauge T shot is just under a dollar a shot. 12 gauge 3" BB hevi shot is somewhere from $2.60 to 3 dollars a shot, now, and bismuth is about $3.60 a shot. I've given 3" steel plenty of chances. I'm through screwin' around.

[Zip7]

MCGunner - you're not letting them get close enough...

Ten or so years ago me and a friend of mine got lucky - laid down in some weeds on a low ditch bank for about an hour and had a big flock of snows get on both sides of us - real close. Popped up and shot 6 times with 3" T shot... killed 27.

But we about ran out of ammo shooting cripples.

[romeo212000]

LOL. Im goin 2 3/4". There is a Remington load that is Zinc coated that is supposed to be a heavy non-toxic shot that is pretty reasonablly priced. I will try that this year.

[chas08]

Popped up and shot 6 times with 3" T shot... killed 27.

Sombody's gotta say it. (LOL) If you were using 3.5"s you would'a killed 47. :neener::D

[MCgunner]

LOL. Im goin 2 3/4". There is a Remington load that is Zinc coated that is supposed to be a heavy non-toxic shot that is pretty reasonablly priced. I will try that this year.

I think you're talkin' about hevi steel. It's supposed to be "22 percent more effective than steel", whatever that means. It's a compromise to the hevi shot stuff, not as heavy as lead, but heavier than steel. I may try some, but now I got a 10 to play with. :D

Geese don't always come on down, especially late season. They get pretty decoy shy and know just how far down they can come and get away with it. I've called 'em, had 'em circle several times and just wouldn't get closer than 40 yards. Sure, at 30 yards, BB steel, even my duck loads, will bring down a goose. I've called 'em over, before, without goose decoys when I was duck hunting and been able to get a bird within 30 yards. Usually speckle belly, they're stupider than snows. And, it's usually a lonely loner.

I've been to more than one goose rodeo. Trust me, by the time those snows get down here, they can be tough to get in closer than 40 yards. With hevi shot, I could cleanly take 'em at 50 yards, usually just don't shoot past 50 at all. See, I don't ask much, just a few more yards. BB steel loses it's reliability at around 35. Beyond that, you're more apt to cripple than kill and that's REALLY miffs me off.

[romeo212000]

So do you think it's worth a shot. I just want to try something before going to $19 for 10 rounds.

[MCgunner]

So do you think it's worth a shot. I just want to try something before going to $19 for 10 rounds.

Oh, yeah, I was all set to pick up a few boxes of hevi steel until I got this itch for a 10 I had to scratch. LOL By all means they're worth trying. I don't know that they'll work as good as hevi shot, but couldn't be WORSE than steel. Some of the hevi shot I've seen lately is more like $26 a box of 10. Our Wallyworld hasn't stocked their non-toxic for the season, yet, so I'm wondering what they're going to run it for. Only place I've found hevi steel on the shelf is Bass Pro in Katy, about 2 hours from me. I'd have to order it. Last I looked it was about 25 bucks a box of 25, about what 10 gauge T shot runs.

What would solve this dilemma is to make lead legal again. <sigh> I'm not sure how there can be more deaths from lead poisoning in birds than from steel crippling with steel shot, frankly. Six of one, half dozen of the other way I look at it. And, I'm not sure why when hunting over a sorghum field or corn field, I should have to use steel? This is normally where I'm hunting geese, not in the marsh. The studies I've seen were on hevily hunted public marshes. Corn fields get plowed.

[MCgunner]

Here are the prices that have driven me to 10 gauge steel. I was getting Federal Tungsten-Iron for 13 and change a box of 10 from Mack's just a few years ago.

http://www.mackspw.com/Item--i-ENVGOOSES

[romeo212000]

This is what I am thinking of trying. About $20.00 a box of 25. Less than a dollar a shot.

http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10151_-1_10001_26003_400004004_400000000_400004000_400-4-4

[chas08]

This is what I am thinking of trying. About $20.00 a box of 25. Less than a dollar a shot.

Nitro Steel is Remingtons version of a Quality steel shot comparable to Winchester Drylok. It's just steel, nothing special, like Hevi- Steel is supposed to be. It's good ammo, burns a little dirtier than the Winchester. The zinc coating is to impeed corosion. The Duck load I favor the most in steel is a 2 3/4 in. 1 1/4 oz. load of #2 at 1350 fps. My wife and daughter favor the Kent 1 1/16 oz loading at 1550 fps. I tend to overlead with that fast a shell so I stick to what works for me. #3 steel is my second choice. Works great over decoys, wind affects it a little more than the #2. Hevi-Shot still reigns supreme in my mind for todays non-toxic. It's more like lead, maybe even a little better, but I just can't make myself spend $300-$400 for the equivalent of four boxes of shells. I'd trade 'em all to be able to use #4 or 5 lead again. :)

[Virginian]

The game wardens have a problem. There is no easy way to check the new non-lead non-steel shotshells other than to read the shells. I was talking to one the other day and he said that's all they can do, and with $4 plus shells they cannot reasonably expect someone to donate one to be chopped up. I asked about reloads and he said they just ask the shooter questions and see if he acts nervous. I told him I was sure I'd make them suspicious because I get nervous with legal factory loads. He laughed and said I am not alone.

[romeo212000]

chas08

What would you recommend I buy for a gun that only shoots 2 3/4 12 gauge shells that won't absolutely rob my checkbook? Kent Fasteel Or will I really need to break down and buy the expensive stuff.

[macadore]

+1 on the Nova. It handles well and the composite stock absorbs a lot of recoil. The 870 was my favorite shotgun for several decades until I discovered the Nova.

[chas08]

Hey MC,
Check out the rebate Remington is offering on their Wingmaster HD. It says up to $150 back on a ten box purchase. With proof of purchase barcode and sales reciept. That might put it back in the $15-$16 price range, depending which one you buy.

[chas08]

What would you recommend I buy for a gun that only shoots 2 3/4 12 gauge shells that won't absolutely rob my checkbook?

I'm assuming we are talking about Duck loads as Goose loads in 2 3/4" is very limited. My Wife and Daughter love the Kent Fasteel 1 1/16 oz loading at 1550 fps. We prefer #2 but #3 is good also. The pellets are polished to a high luster to impeed corrosion (not coated) and they are round. Not hourglass shaped or oval, like you find in Winchester X-pert or Remington Sportsman. I can't help it I like my pellets round. the Nitro-Steel, Winchester Drylok, or the Kent are all excellent choices in steel IMO. Check out the Macks Prairie Wings or Able Ammo websites. Those are the best two I've ordered from in recent years. And no you don't have to break your bank account with the High end stuff, It is superior but not necessary. Happy waterfowling. :)

[romeo212000]

Do you Recommend the #6 or #4's in the Remington Wingmaster HD loads for 2 3/4"? Can't go wrong with that Rebate. I may have to buy a case.

[hignhappy00]

+1 on the Nova.

[chas08]

Do you Recommend the #6 or #4's in the Remington Wingmaster HD loads for 2 3/4"

I have about 200 rounds of the the old Remington hevishot 2 3/4" 1 1/4 oz loads Both in #4 & #6. They were about a $140 per case when I bought them. I use them sparingly these days. I prefer the #4s on the Texas coast where wind is always a factor. The #6s work really well over decoys on the more protected waters I hunt. Either would be an excellent choice, assuming the wingmaster HD is the Hevi-Shots equal. I too, plan on taking advantage of the rebate. :)

[MCgunner]

This is hevi steel. You'll note it is also sold in boxes of 25. It is offered in BB shot, though not in this link. I have never found hevi steel in 2 3/4", however. It's a 3" load only.

http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10151_-1_10001_89791____SearchResults

My duck load of choice is Kent Fasteel OR Winchester Xpert Hi Velocity 1550 fps number 3 in 12 gauge either 2 3/4" or 3". I am going to buy 2 3/4" only this season so I can use it in my Winchester as well as my Mossy. It's quite effective and 3 shot will bring down a 30 yard goose in the fast steel stuff. It has less shot, but patterns well and hits hard. I've shot any number of steel loads in 3" from number one to 4s over the years, never shot 6 on ducks. It all works okay in 3", but seems to lack a bit on high big ducks in 2 3/4, but fast steel loads, the 1550 fps stuff, hit hard even at 40 yards. I'm pretty impressed with it. Leads are shorter, as Chas says, you have to get used to that.

[chas08]

MC,
I don't think Hevi-Steel is offered in 2 3/4" length. Or am I misunderstanding your post? I agree Kent Fasteel is good stuff, for steel.:)

[MCgunner]

I edited to reflect that, too late. LOL

[chas08]

I realize we hi-jacked a semi-dead thread here to discuss all manor of things not related to it, but since we are; MC hows things going with your 10 gauge order? Any new developements?:confused:

[MCgunner]

I called the guy a few days later (Victoria All Sports in Victoria) and he said he was having problems finding one in stock. Says they don't sell too many 10s. Well, I'm just in wait mode, haven't called him back. Don't wanna act like a PITA. LOL Plenty of time until goose season. Once he gets it ordered, only supposed to take a week. When I get it in and try it out, I'll give a pattern test report on it and report on whether my shoulder has to be reset or not.

I think I'll get that 24" turkey barrel for it, too. Would like to have that extra full choke anyway for lead if I ever get to go on another turkey hunt. The choke alone is 30 bucks and I can get the barrel for 75 choke included. LOL Main thing, though, is that the 24" barrel just will fit in the top box of my GoldWing if I take the bike goose hunting, LOL. I mean, you never know, if gas gets to 5 bucks a gallon, I'm going to shoot my van and bury it. I take the MC to dove hunts a lot, have a little Spartan 20 gauge coach gun, just break it down and lock it in the bags. Sweet. I'm slowly converting to using the bike for hunting perposes. Even have a flat bed trailer to haul my hogs and deer on. LOL Don't have a break down rifle, but do have a .30-30 Contender. But, this is another good thing about that gun for me over getting a BPS, can carry it on the bike locked up once I get that 24" barrel. Of course, I have a 40 mpg Toyota Echo, but the wife won't always let me take it. :rolleyes:

[MCgunner]

Oh, BTW, last season Wallyworld had 20 gauge 3" Winchester Xpert 1450 or something fps stuff stocked in number 4. I'm thinkin' that stuff might be a little better on big ducks. I was shooting some ordinary cheap steel in that gun last season, teal hunted with it. Worked pretty decent on teal. Figure the high speed stuff might be almost as good as a 12. Okay, probably a little wishful thinking, but I might try it a few times. That little gun is super handy, light, and not that hard at recoil. I like hunting dove and teal with it, especially on the WMAs I hunt were I have to walk in and I ain't gettin' any younger.

I now have a small kayak to take, too, just drag it behind me so I don't get stuck in the mud in boggy potholes anymore. I got stuck down at Mad Island last year and had to practice that swim out of the quick sand technique you see Les Stroud and Bear Grylles demonstrate now and then. LOL Ruined my damned cell phone which really pissed me off. I normally don't carry it out there, but forgot my watch and needed to know when it was shooting time. There's also a few boggy pot holes down at the Hinze Bay unit of GDWMA where I will be using that yak. They ain't just for fun and fishin'. LOL That yak will let me get off my feet now and then, sit down, help out my old knees, too, if I'm knee deep in water hunting like I usually am.

[SwampWolf]

MCgunner: Where does your retriever pal sit in that kayak? :confused::)

[atblis]

As always money is a factor, but I want to get him a good gun.

Any sugguestions?

Find a Bakail MP153
or the same gun now imported by Remington (with price jacked up!)
Spartan SPR453 (Dicks or Walmart has them now)

Here's a review
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geu.PMIbRIXn0A3NpXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTByMTNuNTZzBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMgRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkAw--/SIG=11tn4kpd9/EXP=1219851084/**http%3a//www.huntohio.net/pdf.php%3fth=6%26

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/SPR_models/SPR453_autoloader.asp

http://www.remington.com/images/products/firearms/spr/smsil_spr453.jpg

[MCgunner]

MCgunner: Where does your retriever pal sit in that kayak?

Don't have one, part of the problem. I can't keep a dog in town without building a kennel I don't wanna build. I got stuck at Mad Island going after a bird. :rolleyes: Son-in-law just got a pup and we're starting him, so I may have a dog in the future, just have to stand in the water like my last dog, or there are potholes where you're on dry land when hunting. Buddy of mine has a neoprene camo coat for his lab. LOL, it helps, though. It don't get icy cold down here, though, well, rarely.

Academy has the camo Remington Spartan 453 now for about 450 I think, in that neighborhood. Tis tempting, but ain't they all. :rolleyes:

[JonB]

So I'd thought I'd add my 2 cents here as well. I hunt duck, pheasant, and goose. I went with the Benelli Nova as it will take up to 3.5" shells. I see a lot of 'you don't need 3.5 ", blah blah blah.' But I like the thought of the extra punch for a goose without going to a 10ga. We use steel shot which basically sucks compared to lead so again, I like the extra. For ducks I use 3" #1 or #2 shot.

Anyway, a good 870 Express, Benelli Nova, Mossberg will all do the job and are about the same price. Pick the one that fits the best and go for it.

[chas08]

Wallyworld had 20 gauge 3" Winchester Xpert 1450 or something fps stuff stocked in number 4.

I tried some #4 steel a few years back. It seemed a little short on knockdown power for the larger species to me. I like to stick to #2 & #3 with steel. #4 might be a good Teal shot. I used to use #7 1/2 lead on them when it was legal, worked great.I don't hunt Teal much anymore since we don't seem to get the fronts to move them through till after the early season closes. The damn snakes and gators are still way to active in mid September too. :what:

[MCgunner]

I've had to chase the gators off my deeks before. Side stepped a moccasin last year, too. Gotta watch your step. Yeah, I've tried 4 in 12 gauge and didn't like it. In 20 gauge, back in the day, I used an 870 Wingmaster in 20, was a 2 3/4" gun, shot number 5 lead. Out of a 20, that was the stuff. Ah, the good ol' lead days. That was 68/69 time frame. In 71, freshman at A&M, spent hard earned tuition money on a 12 gauge side by side they had on a sell out for 100 bucks at a local discount store. I still have that gun and it's still quite the shooter. But, steel shot retired it. Traded a guy out of an old Revelation 310, which is just a rebadged mossberg. Put a screw in choke raised rib mossy barrel on it. Then, I just had to have this camo 500, so I sold that gun (shot fine) and bought the camo mossy. Mossbergs are effective and affordable. I like the tang safety. Autos sure soak up the hurt on the recoil end, though. I've got a 2 3/4" Winchester 1400 that shoots sweet and fits me like a glove. For ducks, it's all I really need, don't even need the 3" gun. But, I'd get at least a 3" gun if I didn't have one already and if I was buying my first, that camo Spartan 453 at Academy would be very versatile. I've heard it's a might heavy, but that was probably from a skeet type guy. Lighter guns are nice on fast moving teal, but most waterfowling, a heavier gun really isn't a big deal, especially on geese, and the weight helps soak up those magnum loads.

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

There's about as many good answers as there are shotguns, which is to say, hundreds of good choices.

I'll just add that in 12 ga, I prefer a semi just for the lighter recoil - if the action is fast & furious, your shoulder may thank you later. Even with a 16 or 20 gauge, semi is preferred if there's gonna be a lot of shooting, unless you just like pain.

A repeater is nice (pump, semi) if you get into them. But a single shot or double gun will work fine too. Reliability is important, but not nearly as important as it is for say, a home defense gun.

Patterning your gun at the right distance is the most important factor of all - you want a good even consistent pattern.

If you're not on a real tight budget, then of course look at Beretta, Benelli, Browning, Remington, Winchester, Franchi, etc. If you're on a bit of a budget then one pretty good semi-auto is the NEF Excel Auto 5 (made at Sarsimalz in Turkey).

[MCgunner]

There's not too many autos any better at waterfowling than the 930 or 935 Mossberg and it's made in the USA. The 935 would be my choice, especially since I have a 2 3/4" auto in my Winchester already. The 930 is 2 3/4 and 3" capable and the 935 is 3" and 3.5" capable. I, personally, don't get too banged up from duck hunting with my Mossberg, even 3" loads. I mean, the limit is only 5 birds and on my WORST day, I can do that in under 15 rounds. Usually takes less than a dozen. Now, for dove hunting, I went through 4 boxes of 20 gauge AA 7.5s in 3 days last year and had no sore shoulder. I would have if I'd shot 3" loads that much. The auto REALLY is nice on dove hunts in 12 gauge, about like shooting a 20 gauge pump. Funny thing, when I stick steel magnum 2 3/4" loads in it, it seems no worse. I do love that thing. :D

I don't know why no one's mentioned the Winchester super X yet, or maybe they have and I missed it? One of the more reliable gas guns around and popular for waterfowl around these parts.

[chas08]

Ah, the good ol' lead days.,


Yeah Mc. It don't make sense to me why we can shoot Dove or even Sandhill Crane with lead, over the same ground and water that we hunt Ducks and Geese over. My dad started me in '66 at the age of ten and I've persued waterfowl with a passion ever since. We used #4 back then. I didn't discover #5 till I was driving age, (14 or 15) It is a great shot size. Wish we could still use it. I suspect someday the tree huggers and whale savers will force lead out all together. Last year at Mad Island the young biologist aked me if he could take th gizzards from my birds, I said sure, but why? He said, "that even after all these years they are still finding lead" in them. My quick reply was, "Well... Duhhh... They are the only birds we can't hunt with lead" :D