If you could make a wildcat cartridge ;)


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Auburn1992
July 22, 2008, 06:53 PM
I was thinking today, how cool would it be to make a wildcat cartridge? Not only this, but have it become a regualr, mass-produced cartridge by some ammo manufacturer (like federal).

If I were to make a wildcat cartridge, I would either make a .243 necked down to .22 (essentially a 22-250 but with a slightly larger case), or a 30-30 necked down to .243 (probably wouldn't be too good, but for curiousity's sake I'd like to see how well it performed. I would like those and a .308 necked up to 8mm (may have been done?).

Any input on 'my' wildcat cartridges?

Please feel free to add your own ;).

Auburn

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HB
July 22, 2008, 07:07 PM
Neck .50 BMG down to .17 or .223. Put about a 3' barrel on it... I assume the bullets would be ripped apart :evil:

I honestly don't see a need for many wildcats aside from building something unique, which is the draw. Most commercial loads cover the bases very well, although many popular calibers started as wildcats
HB

Diamondback6
July 22, 2008, 07:10 PM
Already got one, but I didn't develop it. It's called the .450SMC, same overall dimmensions as ACP but much hotter load and uses specially-made brass. (Not the same as .45Super, though, SMC uses a smaller primer IIRC.)

paintballdude902
July 22, 2008, 07:10 PM
i would neck down a .45-70 to .30 say like a 150 gr

that baby would fly i be with the propper rifling it would be like a lazer too

bogie
July 22, 2008, 07:18 PM
You know, a .30-30 necked down to 6mm or 7mm could be kind of interesting - Only problem I'd really see standing in the way would be finding flatnose bullets... Conversely, I wonder if a .35 caliber .30-30 would work...

Auburn1992
July 22, 2008, 07:22 PM
/\ .35 Rem?

mpmarty
July 22, 2008, 07:22 PM
Sorry fellas, they've all been done before, each and every one of them. Even the 50BMG necked down to .22 caliber, it was called the eargesplittenloudenboomer. See P.O. Ackleys books and learn all about it.

jerkface11
July 22, 2008, 07:28 PM
Yup there aren't many wildcats you can think of that haven't been done already. There are several .22/.243's out there. 7mm Waters is .30-30 necked down.
So how about oddball pistol wildcats. I want .32acp necked down to .25 cal!!

JesseL
July 22, 2008, 07:29 PM
You know, a .30-30 necked down to 6mm or 7mm could be kind of interesting - Only problem I'd really see standing in the way would be finding flatnose bullets... Conversely, I wonder if a .35 caliber .30-30 would work...

7-30 Waters. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7-30_Waters)

Speer 130 gr, .284", flat nose, bullets. (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=220936)

CBS220
July 22, 2008, 07:31 PM
I want .32acp necked down to .25 cal!!

Already made. I think NAA made it.

JesseL
July 22, 2008, 07:35 PM
I don't know if it's been done but I'd like to see a 10mm Auto necked to .17.

mpmarty
July 22, 2008, 07:37 PM
I don't know if it's been done but I'd like to see a 10mm Auto necked to .17.
Today 03:31 PM

Por Que?

Auburn1992
July 22, 2008, 07:40 PM
Por Que?

Porque el cartouche es magnifico!

I think my spanish may be a little off but not sure.

Aaryq
July 22, 2008, 10:57 PM
I'd like to see something like a .50 AE necked down to .30 (7.62x25 bullets). I'd also like to see something completely insane. I'm thinking taking the 30mm Brass from an A-10 Warthog necked down to .17 caliber.

spyder1911
July 22, 2008, 10:59 PM
I would like to see some type of captive piston cartridge. Where the cartridge contains all of the expanding gasses from the propellant and allows the gun to be completely silent without using a suppressor:D

EHCRain10
July 22, 2008, 11:11 PM
i agree with the 30-30 necked to 243 even if its been done before

yesit'sloaded
July 22, 2008, 11:12 PM
There is a company that is working on a 7.62x25 necked down to a .22. So you can buy a CZ52, install the new barrel, and have a poor man's FN 5.7.I didn't say I would do it, but a .22 bullet in a solid copper projectile would probably be very much so armor piercing considering that the 7.62x25 already will punch through a lot.

230RN
July 22, 2008, 11:19 PM
bogie said,

You know, a .30-30 necked down to 6mm or 7mm could be kind of interesting - Only problem I'd really see standing in the way would be finding flatnose bullets... Conversely, I wonder if a .35 caliber .30-30 would work...

I've long suspected that rimmed cartridges are/would be inherently more accurate than rimless cartridges because of the better headspace control.

In a bolt rifle built for target or varmint shooting, something with larger case capacity than a .22 Hornet might be my snowy winter night's dream, and something in .22 or 6 mm based on the rimmed .30-30 case would fulfill my fantasies. (If you could get lightly-jacketed, say, 60-70 gr. BTHPs for the 6mm with a slow twist, say 1-12 or 1-14, rifling.)

And when I turn over in this winter night's dream, I wouldn't mind seeing a .257 or 270 diameter bullet come out of a case based on the .303 British rimmed cartridge for longer range hunting.

bogie
July 22, 2008, 11:26 PM
I can get you J4-jacketed 62 grain flatbase 6mms...

Much lighter, and they don't work all that well, accuracy wise, at least out of the PPC...

And inside 500 or so yards, a boattail isn't going to add much, and in fact takes away from intrinsic accuracy.

230RN
July 22, 2008, 11:35 PM
"...and in fact takes away from intrinsic accuracy..."

I won't argue that too forcefully, but I believe differences in accuracy might well be due to whether they are hollow point boat tails or "FMJ" boat tails. Hollow points, I am told, can be more uniformly produced than "FMJs."

It would seem the major effect on accuracy come from uniformity of the bullets' bases rather than their noses.

Or so I'm told. But I wouldn't argue that forcefully. OK, so I give up, let's make the 6mm .30-30 or .22 .30-30 with your preferred bullets, flat based hollow points.

See? I'm easy to get along with.

R.W.Dale
July 22, 2008, 11:41 PM
I would like to see some type of captive piston cartridge. Where the cartridge contains all of the expanding gasses from the propellant and allows the gun to be completely silent without using a suppressor

Even that's been done by the russians

http://world.guns.ru/ammo/sp-e.htm

And apparently now there is a .32acp necked down to .25 caliber a .25 NAA

http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/BrowseProducts.aspx?t=82579&pageNum=0&tabId=3&categoryId=19037&categoryString=653***691***

there isn't a wildcat you could come up with that someone hasn't beaten you to. Me I would like to see 6.5-06 standardized

Deer Hunter
July 22, 2008, 11:44 PM
What about pushing out the 5.56x45mm case to 9mm. Make it completely straight-walled. It'd be an interesting round. Russians did something like that with the 5.45 round.

MD_Willington
July 22, 2008, 11:46 PM
10mm x 40mm in an AK

Drgong
July 22, 2008, 11:46 PM
I actually would want to see new guns in the Makarov or 7.62x25 existing types more then another wildcat.

A revolver in one of those rounds would be a lot of fun.

R.W.Dale
July 22, 2008, 11:48 PM
What about pushing out the 5.56x45mm case to 9mm.

.223/338 straight is the straight walled wildcat based on .223/5.56x45mm

TallPine
July 23, 2008, 12:19 AM
How about a 9mm necked up to .45 ??? :p

Of course you could only shoot it in double action revolvers - loading from the front of the cylinder :uhoh:

mljdeckard
July 23, 2008, 12:32 AM
I have a friend back home who specializes in .22 Cheetahs built on Mauser actions. it's a .243/.308 necked down to a .22. He's getting 41-4300 feet per second out of them. Turns pot-guts and prairie dogs into a fine pink mist. :)

Nolo
July 23, 2008, 12:34 AM
A rimless 20 gauge, then a Saiga shotgun to fit!

mljdeckard
July 23, 2008, 12:41 AM
Also, I did once inquire in here, if one can neck a .308 down to a .22, why not an -06 casing? I was informed that this has also been done. But I'm trying to get my head around the idea, if a Cheetah gets up to 4300 fps, and the gas leaves the barrel at about 5400 fps, how much further can you push it?

Of course, as an armor crewman in the armor, I fired 120mm smoothbore sabot armor piercing rounds that went 5000 fps, out of what is proportionally a very short barrel. It uses a shell with combustible cardboard case. All that comes out is the end piece, like the brass piece of a shotshell, and they cost $2500 a round.

Anteater1717
July 23, 2008, 12:42 AM
.45acp necked down to 9mm the best of both worlds, though it's probably been done.
Or, a rimless centerfire .22lr.

Bartkowski
July 23, 2008, 12:49 AM
All been done huh?

How about this, a .50 bmg trimmed to 2.00" and then necked down to .308".

myrockfight
July 23, 2008, 12:58 AM
I'm thinking taking the 30mm Brass from an A-10 Warthog necked down to .17 caliber.


I would think the main problem with something like that would be that you would only burn 1/25th of the powder before the bullet left the barrel. I would think you would need a REALLY long barrel to accomodate the slow burn of the powder out of a very small diameter barrel.

Use a faster burning powder to compensate for how fast the bullet leaves a normal length barrel and you would create a bomb.

However, I just started reloading. I don't know a whole lot about the chemistry and physics behind a great round.

JesseL
July 23, 2008, 01:04 AM
All been done huh?

How about this, a .50 bmg trimmed to 2.00" and then necked down to .308".

I saw that is an article about short magnums by Bob Forker a few years ago. He called it .3 US.

Ah, here it is:

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/techside/myth_0903/index.html
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/techside/GAmyth_0903A.jpg

macadore
July 23, 2008, 01:18 AM
Sorry fellas, they've all been done before, each and every one of them. Even the 50BMG necked down to .22 caliber, it was called the eargesplittenloudenboomer. See P.O. Ackleys books and learn all about it.

It was a necked down 378 Weatherby. http://www.gswagner.com/bigreloading/refmaterial/ackley.html

There is a company that is working on a 7.62x25 necked down to a .22. So you can buy a CZ52, install the new barrel, and have a poor man's FN 5.7.I didn't say I would do it, but a .22 bullet in a solid copper projectile would probably be very much so armor piercing considering that the 7.62x25 already will punch through a lot.

Itís the .22 Reed Express from Reed's Ammunition & Research. I think it would be an excellent round in a 10 inch Contender. http://shop.reedsammo.com/category.sc?categoryId=50


.45acp necked down to 9mm the best of both worlds, though it's probably been done.

The 38-45 is pretty close. http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/w3845auto.html

roscoe
July 23, 2008, 01:34 AM
A .260 based on the 30-30, with the new Hornady tip, for lever guns. With the 30-30 case capacity, you could have bolt-gun performance in a handy lever gun (unlike the new Marlin .308).

JesseL
July 23, 2008, 01:37 AM
A .260 based on the .307 Winchester30-30, with the new Hornady tip, for lever guns. It would give you bolt-gun performance in a handy lever gun (unlike the new Marlin .308).

Fixed that for you. :D

Anteater1717
July 23, 2008, 01:48 AM
.22lr necked down to .20cal.
A higher presure 30-30, kinda like the 450 marlin.
7.62x45 necked up to 8mm or down to 6.5mm.
7.62x39 necked down to 6mm with a straightened case.
Rimless centerfire 5mm Rem.

MD_Willington
July 23, 2008, 01:58 AM
"7.62x39 necked to 6mm"

How about .220 Russian, Izhmash chambers the Saiga in 5.6x39 for Europe.

zxcvbob
July 23, 2008, 02:03 AM
.30-06 trimmed to 2" (just long enough to prevent chambering in a .30-06 or a 8mm) and then blown back out to .43 or .44 caliber. Like a much longer version of a .44AMP. Load it to about 50000 psi.

I know it would be similar to a .444 or .450 Marlin, but this would be for a Mauser action rifle.

yenchisks
July 23, 2008, 02:10 AM
i've got one but hard to explain , A 223 rem thats incased, or swallowed and neck up to 6mm and 3/16 longer.You could go from 60 gr to 100gr in this .243.plus more powder something like a 223 rem mag.

PercyShelley
July 23, 2008, 02:15 AM
I don't know if it's been done but I'd like to see a 10mm Auto necked to .17.


Been done!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/17-357_RG

yenchisks
July 23, 2008, 02:17 AM
??????????

Bartkowski
July 23, 2008, 02:23 AM
Fine then, neck it down to 6.5mm. I always like 6.5mm anyway.

waverace
July 23, 2008, 02:37 AM
Something that Ive thought of and apparently has been done is a .303 british on a 308 barrel so that you get the better choice of bullets not much of a wildcat but enough to make a difference .
would give me something to do with the 4 spare DP p14 actions that I have , although one is already earmarked for 45/70 , cause I already have the right bolt for it :)

akodo
July 23, 2008, 02:46 AM
243 necked down to .22
been done a half-dozen times, 22-08 is a prime example (remember, 243 is a necked down 308)

30-30 necked down to .243 (probably wouldn't be too good, but for curiousity's sake I'd like to see how well it performed.
6mm/30-30 and 6mm/30-30 improved with a sharper shoulder

308 necked up to 8mm (may have been done?)
it probably has, but if so it isn't nearly as common as the other two. Thee was an 8mm-06 due to people having bring-home 8mm mausers, but no 8mm mauser ammo, so they switched to 8mm-06. The 338 federal is a 308 necked up to 338, I can't see the 8mm being different enough than the 30 or the 338 to be noteworthy, but sometimes wildcatters seem to make sometning just to have somethign different

You know, a .30-30 necked down to 6mm or 7mm could be kind of interesting 6mm/30-30 mentioned above, and I believe the 7-30 waters is a commercial 30-30 necked down

Conversely, I wonder if a .35 caliber .30-30 would work
35-30/30, old wildcat originally invented to be used in worn out 32-40 and 32 specials that were recut, but needed short cartridges (remember this is pre 308) at relatively low pressures. Matches the 35 remington ballistically

i would neck down a .45-70 to .30 say like a 150 gr
I've never heard of that, but it is following a common tradition of taking a very large parent case (be it a 404 jefferies like the 300 dakota or 300 Rem ultra mag, or the 416 rigby like the 30-378 weatherby ) so sure, why not.

So how about oddball pistol wildcats. I want .32acp necked down to .25 cal
25 NAA

I don't know if it's been done but I'd like to see a 10mm Auto necked to .17. been done as well

Seems to me that what is left it the world of wildcatting is doing crazy stuff just to do crazy stuff, with the exception of possibly expanding the offerings of bullet diameters that are just recently being discovered/rediscovered, like the 20 and the 17...or bullet diameters that fall right between two existing calibers. I suppose there is plenty of unique wildcats you can churn out if you decide that 30 caliber is too small and 32 caliber is too big, so 31 caliber is the answer, or decide that there is a gap between 416 and 458, and that everyone who goes to africa needs a 437!

tuck2
July 23, 2008, 02:50 AM
The Handloaders Manual Of Cartridge Conversions is a 608 page book in which 11 pages list various standard and wild cat cartridges. One that is not in the book is the 25-6.8 Rem. I started reloading in 1952 and whenever a new or different size case come out it wasent long before some one made a wild cat out of it . The 222 Remington started a whole family of new cases, 221 Fireball, 223 Rem, 222 Rem Mag, 17 Rem, 17 Fireball. All have the same diameter base and small flash hole . Good luck with comming out with a wild cat that is an improvment over what has tried .

bogie
July 23, 2008, 02:55 AM
"7.62x39 necked to 6mm"

Sigh... I probably own a dozen 6PPC barrels...

Idea... A double-neck-down? A neck, and then a neck?

Of course, given that the primer's gonna start to flow about 65K...

macadore
July 23, 2008, 11:14 AM
There seems to be a lot of interest in the 30-30. What about a 30-30 with the bullet seated entirely in the case like the Nagant pistol round? This would allow the use of Spitzer bullets.

redneckdan
July 23, 2008, 11:25 AM
I would like to see some type of captive piston cartridge. Where the cartridge contains all of the expanding gasses from the propellant and allows the gun to be completely silent without using a suppressor

Already been done by the russians.




I'm working on a belt less version of the .458 2"

230RN
July 23, 2008, 11:44 AM
Has anyone screwed around with wildcats based on the 7.62 X 39 cartridge? With that short little neck, seems to me it would be good to neck it down and set the shoulder back 0.10 or 0.15 inches. Just curious about that one.

I still like my idea of a .243 or .22 based on the rimmed .30-30 case in an accurate bolt rifle for varminting and long-range medium game.

kludge
July 23, 2008, 12:07 PM
Has anyone screwed around with wildcats based on the 7.62 X 39 cartridge? With that short little neck, seems to me it would be good to neck it down and set the shoulder back 0.10 or 0.15 inches. Just curious about that one.



You mean like a 22 PPC and 6mm PPC?



I want a 7.62x39 necked up to 35 cal (.358 bullets) for Indiana deer hunting.

I recently saw a 10mm Mag necked down to 35 ca, so that's got my interest too.

Old Grump
July 23, 2008, 12:12 PM
Had several ideas for a custom gun with a wildcat 8, did some research, they were all available commercially, anything I could have done to tweak it would have been minimal. Decided I'm not a wildcatter and am happy with what I have. On the other hand..................................

jerkface11
July 23, 2008, 12:16 PM
I want a 7.62x39 necked up to 35 cal (.358 bullets) for Indiana deer hunting.

The Russians already have 9x39 for suppressed assault and sniper rifles.

HB
July 23, 2008, 12:24 PM
There seems to be a lot of interest in the 30-30. What about a 30-30 with the bullet seated entirely in the case like the Nagant pistol round? This would allow the use of Spitzer bullets.

As in lengthen the case to the tip if the bullet? That actually sounds cool, although feeding could be a problem

Eric F
July 23, 2008, 12:29 PM
I want to make a 35-500 S&W mag. Likely to equal out to a 35 remington or slightly better but so what. I just want to have unusual stuff.

Atleast the 500 mag is almost too new for any one to say

already been done

macadore
July 23, 2008, 02:15 PM
Has anyone screwed around with wildcats based on the 7.62 X 39 cartridge? With that short little neck, seems to me it would be good to neck it down and set the shoulder back 0.10 or 0.15 inches. Just curious about that one.

6 mm PPC and .220 Russian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6mm_PPC

kludge
July 23, 2008, 02:31 PM
The Russians already have 9x39 for suppressed assault and sniper rifles.


I wonder what diameter the bullet is? 0.357" is the minimum legal diameter. The people I found previously that make a Mini-35 out of a Mini-30 don't do it anymore.

jerkface11
July 23, 2008, 02:41 PM
I think it's Makarov diameter whatever that is.

Clean97GTI
July 23, 2008, 02:51 PM
the 9x18 Makarov is actually 9.2mm or .362~

I don't know what the actual diameter of the Russian 9x39 is.

MD_Willington
July 23, 2008, 04:35 PM
9x39 info at hcpookies site

.358

http://pookieweb.dyndns.org:61129/Groza/9x39/9x39_caliber.htm

rxraptor02
July 23, 2008, 09:36 PM
I was at a local gun shop today here in Indiana.

They had a funny looking bullet sitting on a shelf. I had to ask..It was a .35rem bullet on a custom reworked case. It was designed to meet the legal rifle cal/size... for deer hunting. The case was bottled necked to fit the .35rem slug. I am not sure what case it was using.

They guy said the person who make it got a deer out to 225 yards with the round.

Hk91-762mm
July 23, 2008, 09:42 PM
A -50BMG necked to 9 or 10 mm Or maby 49cal Just to screww with the ANTI 50cal Barrett Bunch.
That and Take a 416 rigby and drop it to 8 or 9 mm

Waddison
July 23, 2008, 11:34 PM
but sometimes wildcatters seem to make sometning just to have somethign differentAbsolutely true!

My wildcat of preference is a 6.5-300WSM. Not a whole lot different performance wise than the 6.5-.284 Norma, but it sure is a blast to load for and play with! :D
Besides, it ain't just everybody that has one! :D :D

Waddison

Bartkowski
July 23, 2008, 11:42 PM
I bet these have been done, but would like more information...Has anyone necked down 7.62x54r or 8x57 to 6.5mm? Or even a 7.62x57?

TehK1w1
July 24, 2008, 12:12 AM
Hey, why don't we take the 'ole 30-06 and try necking it up instead of down? say, 338, 35, 375, and 40 caliber?












oh wait, Col. Whelen and others have already done that.

bogie
July 24, 2008, 12:54 AM
Just had a thought...

May not be the most accurate, but it won't cause random kabooms...

Load boattails backwards in a .30-30... I wonder how well a 220 grain round would work...

86thecat
July 24, 2008, 01:00 AM
A 250 Savage improved (so it won't chamber in a Model 99) at modern pressure, and sell it to the military as the "NEW" and BEST" thing since sliced bread crossover between urban and long range work. .257 dia 100 grain spitzer boat tail at 3000+fps. The original has worked well on 150-250 pound targets since 1915.

jerkface11
July 24, 2008, 02:29 AM
Whoa whoa whoa you can't use anything smaller than .358 to hunt deer with in Indiana? .30-06 isn't good enough for Indiana whitetail? .338 Winmag isn't good enough? That's just silly.

PercyShelley
July 24, 2008, 02:32 AM
.338 Lapua Magnum was deemed "a little bit light"

plainsbilly
July 24, 2008, 03:33 AM
just a thought a .30 M1 necked down to .25. just thinkin of something that might actually work and havent heard of

kludge
July 24, 2008, 01:44 PM
Whoa whoa whoa you can't use anything smaller than .358 to hunt deer with in Indiana? .30-06 isn't good enough for Indiana whitetail? .338 Winmag isn't good enough? That's just silly.


Rifles, up until last year, have been illegal for deer hunting during the "firearms" season. Shotguns, Muzzloaders, and Handguns with bullets 0.243" diameter that meet minimum case restrictions are and have been legal.

Last year we got a new law that allows rifles using "pistol" cartridges. The law does not actually say "pistol" cartridge, but lists minimum and maximum case length and minimum bullet diameter. Without looking, the min and max lengths are 1.16" and 1.60" 7.62x39 fits right in the middle, but the bullet is too small. 10mm magnum would be legal, but 10mm would not. .454 Casull is legal but .460 S&W is too long. .500 S&W is legal, so is .458 SOCOM (and this one is specifically listed in the DNR hunting guide).

I'm wanting an autoloader so the rimmed cartridges like 357 Mag., .44 Mag, 45 Colt don't do so well.

The funny thing is, it's not specifically illegal to hunt any other critter with any caliber rifle that suits your fancy.

I'm also looking at a "10mm Auto" that is 10mm Mag brass resized with a .357 SIG die.

kludge
July 24, 2008, 01:47 PM
I was at a local gun shop today here in Indiana.

They had a funny looking bullet sitting on a shelf. I had to ask..It was a .35rem bullet on a custom reworked case. It was designed to meet the legal rifle cal/size... for deer hunting. The case was bottled necked to fit the .35rem slug. I am not sure what case it was using.

They guy said the person who make it got a deer out to 225 yards with the round.

Which shop?

zxcvbob
July 24, 2008, 01:47 PM
just a thought a .30 M1 necked down to .25. just thinkin of something that might actually work and havent heard of


I thought that was the "5.7 Johnson"

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