[T-Ray]

Quick search showed no results, so here it is: Not sure if i could buy one any time soo, but what are some good inexpensive o/u's, say $400 or less? Can be 20,16,or12. Would be used for dove and some clays. Preferably a single selective trigger.

Also open to sxs. Just considering a double cause if i don't hit it in 2 shots, no reason to take a third, plus i've always loved the looks

[lions]

My brother just bought a Stoeger Condor, I think it was under your price range. He hasn't used it yet so I couldn't tell you much about it but now you have something to research.:D

[Snarlingiron]

Yildiz.

Academy (http://www.academy.com/index.php?page=content&target=products/outdoors/hunting/firearms/shotguns&start=30&selectedSKU=0350-04706-1228)

I love mine. Will it last forever at 150 - 200 rounds per week? I'll let you know. Probably not, but it is a lot of gun for the money.

[T-Ray]

Yildiz.

Ya, i've seen those, liked the looks and what not, but since it's an academy exclusive, i thought i'd try to hear some first hand experience with them.

[Dave McCracken]

When talking about O/Us, good and inexpensive do not often dwell together.

Getting both barrels to shoot to the same point takes better machining and skills than the market allows.

Old and onery as I am, I'd look around for a used SKB,Winchester 101, Miroku, etc and pay the extra.

[romeo212000]

The Yildiz does exactly that Dave. I bought a Yildiz and have been absolutely thrilled with it. For the money it is the best on the market. If you go with a 12 gauge I recommend 1 oz loads though.

[ArmedBear]

How many rounds do you have through it, romeo?

[Cougfan2]

+1 on the Miroku. They are a very well made Japanese gun and built like the old Browning Superposed shotguns. A few hundred over your price range for a used one, but you won't he disappointed.

[Zip7]

They built a new Bass Pro Shops in my area recently, and when I went there to check it out, they had dozens of used O/U shotguns on open racks where you could check them out.

MOST of them felt sloppy and cheap to me (the only O/U I own is a Jap made Citori) but they hade a couple of Miroku that looked and felt decent. Lots of Huglu that didn't, really. I didn't recognize any of the foreign brands, so I don't remember them all. The used brownings weren't cheap. But they did have a Win. 101 for 800 or so. I don't know much about that model, but it looked like the better deal there.

[T-Ray]

When talking about O/Us, good and inexpensive do not often dwell together.

I agree, but i was pretty much meaning good for an inexpensive one. I realize that generally you get more when you pay more. I wouldn't be using it all that often. 1nce every other month would be more than i currently shoot. Normally, we get out some clays and those little red handles and shoot for about a day, normally a week or so before opening dove weekend. I don't go hunting that often and so I really don't need, or want to spend $800+ on a double barrel, since i already have an 870. It would just be a new fun gun to enjoy. It would also turn heads with my family, as we all have 870's, aside from my cousin who has a maverick and his younger brother who's on his dad's old 20ga single.

[Ash]

You can get a really good o/u for $500. It will be used, but you can. I have a Savage 333, which was made by Valmet as their model 312, and it is as good as any O/U that costs a grand.

Ash

[Zip7]

It would just be a new fun gun to enjoy

T-Ray - I would sure go take a look at the Yildiz mentioned above then... it's a good looking gun. Put your hands on the field grade Browning and note how it seems to fit and function, and use that to compare to. It doesn't have to be as nice as a browning, but it shouldn't feel loose and sloppy either.

I have an old Spanish made Zephyr SxS that my Father bought in the 1950's for a little more than $50. In those days, it was a cheap imported alternative to the ultra expensive English guns. I still take that gun into the field a few times every year - Dove hunts, and shooting clays, and it has never failed me. Everyone oohs and aahs over it - it's very pretty. Great wood, and fancy engraving - shoots well - I love that gun. And most shotgun snobs would have poo-pooed it back in it's day. We have a big dove hunt every year and always throw some clays, and everyone there lines up to shoot that gun - probably shot ten boxes or more through it last Labor Day weekend.

[T-Ray]

T-Ray - I would sure go take a look at the Yildiz mentioned above then... it's a good looking gun. Put your hands on the field grade Browning and note how it seems to fit and function, and use that to compare to. It doesn't have to be as nice as a browning, but it shouldn't feel loose and sloppy either.

I have, back when i was in the market for my 870. I wanted to stay away from 870 cause that's what my dad had, and i wanted our family to have more of a variety. I was gonna get a moss. 500, but academy and bass pro didn't have them in stock:confused:. Anyway, at academy, i handled a yildiz and was impressed, but didn't want to spend that much. Bass pro had synthetic 870's on sale for after rebates & such, i paid $220 before tax, although the tax was based on the $250 paid in store before mail in rebate. It was different enough for me. I love it, but the more the merrier, right:D:D
I've always been in awe of doubles.

[ripcurl]

I have a yildiz but nothing to compare it too. I paid 399 and I really like it.

plain jane 12ga model.

I would def check them out. I wanted a gun gun but the classic "look" of an o/u.

[Zip7]

I've always been in awe of doubles.

I have too - the Zephyr was the first 12 gauge gun I ever fired. Later on I got a field grade Citori, and I like it too. The Browning seems to fit me better, but I shoot better with the SxS. It's not easy to hit doves with either of mine, as they both have 30" full/modified barrels - no screw in chokes. With the SxS you either miss, or vaporize the clays, but I can smoke clays with it all day. And they are just a ton of fun to shoot - makes me feel like an English Gentleman, even though I'm just an old redneck from the sticks...:neener:

[younganddumb]

I got a stoger condor I like it for 3 main reason's kinda weird ones though

1) made in maryland where I live

2) shots bottom first

3) cheap

[ArmedBear]

Stoegers (currently) are made in Brazil.

[T-Ray]

If i get one, i'd probably go with a 12 or a 20, unless ya'll can point me to a place that sells 16 ga ammo (cheap dove stuff) for less than $5 a box. Any places that sell it that cheap? If not, should i go with a 20 or 12 (considering i get one, which probably won't happen this year, but, chance it does)

[Shawnee]

As another poster pointed out - good, durable doubles, either SxS or O/U are never - as in NEVER - inexpensive. A $400 version might well last you for several years of hunting at maybe a couple hundred rounds per year.

But if you speak with any experienced trap, skeet or clays competitor they'll assure you a $400 dollar double has a whole lot in common with a $400 Cadillac.


:cool:

[T-Ray]

But if you speak with any experienced trap, skeet or clays competitor they'll assure you a $400 dollar double has a whole lot in common with a $400 Cadillac.

Not interested in competing, like i said, maybe about 100 rds through it at clays that are hand thrown and about 150rds for hunting each year. I don't go shooting that often, and it would take turns with my 870

[rbernie]

As another poster pointed out - good, durable doubles, either SxS or O/U are never - as in NEVER - inexpensive. For serious competitive shooters, the break-even point between a $400 Yildiz that only lasts 10K rounds and a 'good, durable double' probably comes mighty early. For a casual shooter who practices once a month and hunts twice a year - that Yildiz may last a LONG time.

While it's certainly honest to point out the difference to the OP, I would not suggest that there is no place for an inexpensive O/U. Some folk just want a casual 'occasional' gun, and there's no harm in that.

[ArmedBear]

I still wonder how many rounds people have through their Yildiz guns.

Stoegers actually hold up pretty well, generally. They're unrefined, but they don't seem to have parts that break in a short time. Some other guns (e.g. Mossberg Khans) have had problems with parts breakage long before the 10K mark.

Something to think about, though...

If you're a casual shooter, and you go to the range and shoot 4 boxes every 2 weekends for practice, that's 2600 rounds per year. Add in some hunting, casual shooting with a hand thrower, a Sunday at the range when you just want to keep shooting, and you're over 3000 rounds easily.

10K doesn't sound like much, when you consider that.

Also, if you shoot, say, 100 rounds of skeet or trap, total, in a year, that will cost you upwards of $1000 in tickets and cheap ammo. Maybe $1500.

Spending a few hundred bucks more on a gun you won't have to repair or replace soon, in the grand scheme of things, makes sense. (Think SKB :) )

And if you aren't going to shoot the gun, hell, just don't buy it. Buy something else with your hard-earned money. I own a few things I don't use, and I'd rather have the money back.

[T-Ray]

If you're a casual shooter, and you go to the range and shoot 4 boxes every 2 weekends for practice, that's 2600 rounds per year. Add in some hunting, casual shooting with a hand thrower, a Sunday at the range when you just want to keep shooting, and you're over 3000 rounds easily.

Well, i don't shoot near that much, 300 rds a year maybe. I probably won't get one any time soon, just inquisitive as to what's out there. If i did end up getting one, it would take turns with my 870, like previously stated.

I wish i shot that much, and if i did, i'd spend more and get a beretta or somethin else nice

[ArmedBear]

If you're not in a hurry, start saving money and looking around. Sometimes a deal comes up if you're not in a hurry.

(A deal would be a used gun, not a cheap new one. Also, CDNN has some interesting stuff, like Winchesters for $899. Those are legitimate good deals.)

[T-Ray]

If you're not in a hurry, start saving money and looking around. Sometimes a deal comes up if you're not in a hurry.

That's what i'm doin

[Zip7]

I don't do any sort of competition shooting, and if I did, obviously I may have a different view.

Look at .22 pistols - I have a bunch of them, including a couple of very nice Colt Match Targets. I shoot them fairly often too, but if I am going out coon hunting in the swamp at night I carry a Ruger Single Six that was bought new in 1958. It's seen much more hard use (for 50 years now, and counting...) than my Colts and stands up to it much better too, despite being much cheaper. My best friend carries his H&R Double Nine - same story - not a top shelf gun, but has been reliable and used hard for many years.

So there are affordable guns that will last your whole life. If you can buy parts for them, I wouldn't worry much about it. I looked at .22 rifles last year, and was appalled at how cheap the more popular ones felt. I ended up with a CZ452. Not the most expensive rifle available, but I guarantee my kids and grandkids will be shooting it long after I'm gone - much like the Old Zephyr Double my dad bought for $50 bucks new 50 years ago - that I will be shooting doves with this year

[ArmedBear]

So there are affordable guns that will last your whole life.

Yes. And today's cheap O/U's are generally not those guns. They're surely not Ruger Single Sixes when it comes to longevity.

Ruger builds O/U's using a lot of the same techniques as the Single Six. The same expenses, skilled labor costs, overhead, etc. are involved in building a Red Label and a Super Single Six.

The Red Label costs about 4 times as much as the revolver -- which is exactly what people have said. If you want an O/U that can be used like a Single Six, don't be shocked that it costs $1500 new.

(An SKB can be had for a bit less, and is also this good.)

Note that a higher-end O/U costs a LOT more than 1500 bucks. A good $1500 gun is an inexpensive, quality O/U, and wishing doesn't make it not so. Skilled labor has gone up; truly massed produced items are cheaper, shotguns that require a lot of hand work are more expensive, than they were 50 years ago. C'est la vie.

Now I did pick up an old SxS for $237 recently, a pretty nice shooter. It's very old, built in 1926. That sort of thing is worth looking for.:)

[Ash]

Again, I have a Valmet that cost me $500 and it will hang with any shotgun at $1,000.

Ash

[NCsmitty]

I have posted before on similar threads to say that I am extremely pleased with my Stoeger Condor 410 O&U. I ordered the youth model because of the 22" barrels with fixed chokes and built up the pad area a little with spacers but my arms are short anyways and it is a fast handling, reliable, but a little plain and heavier than some more expensive O&U 410s. I have a lot of fun with it and do reload. Shooting a little over a half ounce of shot makes a bag of expensive shot last that much longer. I think it is a great value for the money. In my younger days, I thought 410s were kids guns but now I realize your skill level jumps a notch trying to master the 410.

NCsmitty

[romeo212000]

"How many rounds do you have through it, romeo?"

Sorry for the delay armed bear. I have put around 3000+ rounds through it. I use it quite a bit for skeet during the summer.

[SN13]

Chinese O/U JLN-12 I think...

It works. $100. Barely Used. 30" fixed choke full/mod 2 3/4" cyls.

I shoot trap at 22+ all day with it.

[Snarlingiron]

Skilled labor has gone up; truly massed produced items are cheaper, shotguns that require a lot of hand work are more expensive, than they were 50 years ago. C'est la vie.

This is very true.

However, modern automated machining and assembly techniques remove the need for a great deal of hand fitting and finishing. For example, I know that regulating barrels used to be a long tedious operation. Modern laser measurement equipment reduces this to a few minutes.

I am not naive enough to think for one minute that the Yildiz approaches the quality of a nice Beretta O/U, or an SKB either. However, I know that there are lots of very satisfied Yildiz and Condor owners.

Most average shotgun owners won't put 10,000 rounds through a shotgun in a lifetime. Most of the folks on this board are aficionados and will shoot much more than the pedestrian owner.

I know a couple of folks that bought pistols after 9-11, and have never fired them. :eek:

I suspect most shotgun owners are much the same. They will fire a box of rounds when the gun is first purchased, and a couple more boxes during dove, quail, pheasant, whatever season, and the gun goes back to the bedroom closet for the rest of the year.

If someone is not a high volume shooter, then these guns will be perfectly serviceable for a long long time.

[ArmedBear]

I have a Valmet that cost me $500 and it will hang with any shotgun at $1,000.

The Valmet hasn't been made for a good long while. I have an old Ithaca SKB that cost me $500, too, and it will hang with the new SKB's at $1250 -- but the OP was asking about cheap, NIB O/U's.

However, modern automated machining and assembly techniques remove the need for a great deal of hand fitting and finishing. For example, I know that regulating barrels used to be a long tedious operation. Modern laser measurement equipment reduces this to a few minutes.


Would that this were true, or at least that it would make a significant dent in the price.

Ruger thought exactly this, when they promised their Gold Label with an under-$2K list price. This quickly rose to well over $3K, then they quit making the gun at all because they couldn't make money at it -- and Ruger is renowned for using manufacturing techniques to keep their production costs lower their competitors'.


I suspect most shotgun owners are much the same. They will fire a box of rounds when the gun is first purchased, and a couple more boxes during dove, quail, pheasant, whatever season, and the gun goes back to the bedroom closet for the rest of the year.

Yeah. It's always fun to watch them at the dove opener. Until you get blasted with shot, that is.

Honestly, I don't see the point in buying an O/U and not shooting it, and a "pedestrian owner" is really better off with something else.

Most average shotgun owners won't put 10,000 rounds through a shotgun in a lifetime.

Yeah, but most average shotgun shooters do, a lot faster than they realize. It doesn't take an aficionado to do that, as I detailed above. It just takes someone who will use the gun.

If you buy it with the intent of leaving it sitting in a corner, I really can't comment on what to buy, since there are no good criteria for the decision. Hell, if you're not going to shoot the gun, it really doesn't matter. It doesn't have to fit you, it doesn't have to last more than 50 rounds; it doesn't really even need firing pins.:)

I mean, do whatever floats your boat. But if someone showed up in the handgun or rifle forums and said, "I want to buy a really cool gun and I probably won't ever shoot it, what should I buy?" how could one really answer this question? There's no good answer, and there's no bad answer. Shotguns are no different.

[Oldnamvet]

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/SPR_models/SPR310_over_&_under.asp

The remington is made by Baikal in Russia and seem pretty rugged. Mine has gone through several thousand rounds in the last few months without any problems. If it isn't going to be used extensively, it should last longer than you will. I paid $475 NIB when I got it.

[Snarlingiron]

Honestly, I don't see the point in buying an O/U and not shooting it, and a "pedestrian owner" is really better off with something else.

I agree completely.

Yeah, but most average shotgun shooters do, a lot faster than they realize. It doesn't take an aficionado to do that, as I detailed above. It just takes someone who will use the gun.

Yeah, I gotta agree with that one too. When I begin tallying round counts, I am always surprised. I have a Glock 19 that will be 3 years old in October...11,000+ rounds. I have only been shotgunning seriously since December, and even at that I have shot about 3000 rounds through various shotguns (been experimenting with what I like best).

The OP:

Quick search showed no results, so here it is: Not sure if i could buy one any time soon, but what are some good inexpensive o/u's, say $400 or less? Can be 20,16,or12. Would be used for dove and some clays. Preferably a single selective trigger.

I still think the Yildiz fits the criteria, given that "good" is a highly subjective concept. Some folks think Chevy's are good, others can't live without a Mercedes. (substitute 1911, and Glock for Chevy and Mercedes if you like).:D

Sooooo...T-Ray, is it all clear now??:evil:

[T-Ray]

but the OP was asking about cheap, NIB O/U's.

Nowhere does it say nib. I didn't even say i AM going to get one, just said i was interested.
Yes, i realize a ferarri is better than a chevy, but when they break, the chevy is affordable to fix. Yes, you're going to say the ferarri isn't going to break when the chevy does, but things happen.
I wasn't really asking the $3k o/u owners, more pointing it towards yildiz and condor type owners. If i was going to shoot 3k rounds a year, i'd buy a beretta or somethin really good, but like i said, it'd just be somethin fun to play with. I'm going to shoot it, that's inevitable, but CAN'T shoot as much as i like.

[Pete409]

T-Ray,

Here is a good example of why "cheap" shotguns may not be such a good deal..... assuming you want to shoot it occasionally.

At the range today, one of my buddies who has a Franchi O/U finally got his gun back. He didn't shoot it a lot, but I would guess he has put perhaps 2000 to 3000 rounds through it since he bought it new.

Anyway, it needed new firing pins and hammer springs. He sent the gun off and had to wait about 6 months because they didn't have any firing pins and couldn't get any. Finally, he said that the repair facility agreed to MAKE some firing pins that would fit. It seemed to work OK today.

If my buddy had had a Browning citori O/U, he could have bought new firing pins and hammer springs for a few bucks almost anywhere.

So, it's the old story of having your gun broke down and unable to use it because you can't get some $5 part. If you stick with the more popular brands of O/U such as Beretta, Browning, or SKB...... that should never be a problem. I'm not saying that they never break down, but in the occasional instance when they do, parts are always available. With some of the "cheaper" makes of O/U, that's not always true.

[rbernie]

I mean, do whatever floats your boat. But if someone showed up in the handgun or rifle forums and said, "I want to buy a really cool gun and I probably won't ever shoot it, what should I buy?" how could one really answer this question? There's no good answer, and there's no bad answer. Shotguns are no different.
You're making this a binary scenario, in which either the gun gets used for thousands of rounds per year or gets used not at all. The point that people are trying to make is that most folk are somewhere between those two extremes, and sit somewhere in the '500 rounds a year' neighborhood. For those folks, a Yildiz *may* do just fine.

Dunno. I don't know crap about shotguns.

But I do understand the desire for real economy, and I understand the concern about false economy.

[ArmedBear]

T-Ray, I don't own any $3000 guns, though I do have one Beretta O/U. I own a few shotguns at this point, but 2/3 of them cost me between 50 and 250 bucks each.

If I were to answer an open question like: "I have an 870 and 400 bucks. What should I buy to have fun with a shotgun?" this is what I'd recommend.

Spend the 400 bucks on ammo, clay targets and/or range tickets and shoot the 870.

870s balance and shoot very well, and they're fun to shoot. You may find that, if you buy something else, you end up liking the 870 better. Or not. But this has most certainly happened to a good number of shooters, even very seasoned shooters.

[younganddumb]

I have a conndor and Its a great gun but I honastly would trade it for an 870 quicker then you would think b/c thr 870 is more versitile don't get me wrong the condor is great and I love it its just you can use the 870 more then the condor but if you really want an O/U then by all means get one

The condor won't let you down and you can have it for cheap and it will searve your purpose but I agree with ArmedBear just spend it on other stuff get a longer bareal if it makes you feel better but I see more pump guns at my local trap range then O/U's

[younganddumb]

"I shoot clays with my 870 and i can cycle it just about as fast as a semi auto can, or rather as fast as you're going to shoot a semi auto"


I belive you said this T-Ray so why not just stick with the 870?

Had to post this after seeing it while reading another thread

sorry

[ArmedBear]

The fact is, Remington hit on a design that made for guns that fit lots of people, point and swing very well, and that can be made for relatively low prices.

The 870, 1100, and similar shotguns tend to work very well for people -- I know a guy, a very good shooter, who got well into 5 figures on a custom trap gun before his scores got better than what he got with his old 1100.

If I were going to, say, shoot trap on a bet with a borrowed field gun, and I could choose between the cheapest 870 Express and any O/U that goes for under $1000, I'd pick the 870, hands down, end of story. And I know I'm not alone.

That's the real issue here as I see it. That 870 you already have is a wonderful shooter; it will be hard to beat it.

[T-Ray]

i'm not going to replace my 870, i just think it'd be cool to have an o/u just because they're cool and probably fun to shoot. It'd be fun to put the 870 down for an hour or so while dove hunting and shoot with an o/u. I'll still use my 870, i'm not sayin its not durable or fun, i'm sayin o/u's look like fun and it'd be fun to be able to put down my 870 for a bit just to have fun with a different gun.

[Geno]

T-Ray:

Chocolate ice cream tastes awesome, but sometimes a person wants Butter Pecan, right?

Doc2005

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

But if you speak with any experienced trap, skeet or clays competitor they'll assure you a $400 dollar double has a whole lot in common with a $400 Cadillac.

Yeah, but aren't those the same guys who will assure you that there's no need for civilians to own handguns or "assault weapons", and that the politicians would never try to ban hunting rifles or shotguns? I don't put a lot of stock in what gun snobs say, my own self. They may be right, but I certainly won't believe it because they say it - I'll find out for myself whether my Baikal (Rem Spartan) and Huglu (CZ) are gonna stand the test of time. It's gonna take me a few years to a couple decades, but I'll eventually post whether the gun snobs were right someday. :)

Agree that the 870 or other pump or semi-auto will likely shoot just as well in your hands. The O/Us and S/Ss are mostly about impressing your friends/girlfriends, and as a conversation piece. If I'm gonna hunt dove or quail by myself, no need to take anything but the 1400 winchester. But if hunting with friends, espec. the white collar types, I'd take along the CZ, which is an impressive color case-hardened & engraved machine of beauty.

[younganddumb]

So if you are only looking for a fun gun then buy what YOU think looks cool b/c that is the reason you are buying one b/c it looks like fun and it looks cool

[ArmedBear]

If I'm gonna hunt dove or quail by myself, no need to take anything but the 1400 winchester. But if hunting with friends, espec. the white collar types, I'd take along the CZ, which is an impressive color case-hardened & engraved machine of beauty.

I'm exactly the opposite. I don't want to impress anyone; I just love the way my SKB 20 Gauge shoots. Got it for 500 bucks. The 1100 hasn't been out much since I got the little O/U.

People seem to have "issues" about shotguns that they don't have about rifles or handguns.

If someone asks about whether a really cheap rifle or pistol is a good purchase in the other forums here, and people say, "No, save your money and get something better. I've seen a lot of those break down in a short time and they shoot terrible groups." the answer is generally, "Oh. Thanks for saving me the money and hassle. Guess I'll wait a bit and get something I'll like."

The same scenario in the shotgun forum results in all sorts of personal issues coming up, see PremiumSauces above, where someone who believes a Jap Browning is a much better purchase than a Huglu must be a snob and someone who opposes RKBA, but the poster still feels the need to impress "white collar" hunters.

That kind of response in the rifle or revolver forum would be seen as utterly ridiculous, and reflecting on the personal issues of the poster, not the guns. Why is that any different when the gun in question is a shotgun?

I mean, really, it's nothing personal if someone posts the truth about shotguns. Buy what you want. If you don't care to learn from the mistakes of others, go ahead and make your own. It's your life, your money, and your business.

Don't expect people to lie to you and tell you a cheap O/U is a good gun, if their experience tells them otherwise. Why would you WANT them to lie to you?

[ScottsGT]

Want a Boito? They are built in Brazil, were made for K-mart and sell for almost nothing. I'll ship you one for $200 to an FFL. Interested, I'll get you photos.
Has K-Mart stamped on the barrel!

[Dave McCracken]

Premium Sauces, that stereotype is as mistaken as the one about "Natural Rhythm".....

If I showed up at PGC with a Tromixed Saiga, the guys would set down their Parkers, Model 12s etc, and line up to try it out.

Some of them own black rifles, all of them handguns. NRA Life memberships are as common to them as old, faded straight patches on old faded shooting vests.

And a more passionately committed group for YOUR right to own guns, cheap or upscale, would be very hard to find.

And, these guys are more typical that you might think.

And re O/Us, at Casa McC the O/U is outnumbered by the 870s 5 to 1. And both are outnumbered by the handguns.

It's a Beretta, and a target crunching death ray when I hold up my end.

So are the 870s that I use for hunting, defense and fun.

With the O/U, I don't have to bend down and pick up the empties when shooting doubles. At my age, that's a nice bennie.

It's steady but quick, while the 870s are a bit better on stuff that changes speed and direction at will.

The two chokes are nice. I may pick up a bird or two with the O/U at SC that I couldn't with a pump, but it's close.

Am I a snob? Red neck, blue collar and rural outlook......

[T-Ray]

does anybody have any experience with the stevens 512 or the mossberg silver reserve?

[cjanak]

I managed to get a used Franchi Alcione Field (http://www.gunsreview.com/shotguns/franchi/alcione.html) 12 guage for $450. Only a few years old with normal hunting wear... bascially the guy had 7 guns but his wife thought he only had 4 so he needed to unload it fast. That was a lucky find, but if you're not in a hurry you may find a similar deal to if you look hard enough.

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Premium Sauces, that stereotype is as mistaken as the one about "Natural Rhythm".....

If I showed up at PGC with a Tromixed Saiga, the guys would set down their Parkers, Model 12s etc, and line up to try it out.

Some of them own black rifles, all of them handguns. NRA Life memberships are as common to them as old, faded straight patches on old faded shooting vests.

And a more passionately committed group for YOUR right to own guns, cheap or upscale, would be very hard to find.

And, these guys are more typical that you might think.

Well then perhaps mea culpa; perhaps I need to get out more. But that's been my admittedly *very limited* experience with the guys I know who own very very expensive shotguns. Maybe in varies it different regions of the country. Thank you for opening my eyes to this, as I would never have guessed it.

I shall endeavor henceforth to not be so hasty to judge & generalize the "nice shotgun" owners. :)

Wait a sec - that "natural rhythm" method had better work! (If you mean what I think you mean). :)

Armed Bear, your point is well taken also. No, I would NOT want them to lie - definitely. It's just that I frankly don't believe them. I've heard LOTS of gun snobs explain to me how Savage rifles and CZ pistols are JUNK, and only pre-64 Winchesters, Remingtons, and Brownings are worth owning. So I naturally assume that those who tell me any shotgun under $1,000 is junk are in the same mold.

I don't think there's anything that weird about taking nicer guns when shooting with friends, and for me at least, there's nothing different about shotguns there, relative to rifles. I'd do the same thing with rifles. I normally hunt by myself, and as such, I might deer hunt with anything from the butt-ugly Savage with my homemade camo job to a nice looking rifle. But if I were to deer hunt with friends, it wouldn't be with the Savage. Just like I put on nice clothes and shoes and take a bath first when going out socially. :dunno:

Random Tangent Question for the shotgunners: As I am more of a rifle type of guy, I don't know -- if I were inclined to pick one of the clays sports to get involved with, and my sole goal is to get better at hitting quail, pheasant and doves (notsomuch waterfowl), which one would help me the most - skeet, trap, or SCs?

[Ash]

That's not hard to understand. I have heard the same thing in the past about CZ pistols and Savage rifles, or Mosin's. Lots of things like that, so it is real easy to assume snobbery when O/U's are bandied about. I can afford the more expensive ones, but I really like the Valmet (the 333 can take the replacement rifle barrels to make a double rifle). The new Turks don't hold as well, but there are great O/U's out there in new condition for cheap - and they are not even hard to find.

Ash

[45auto]

Skeet would be the best 'all-around' clay target sport for a beginner and to learn about hitting "birds" IMO.
After your "comfortable" with skeet, then sporting and trap.

An "inexpensive" O/U is directly related to how many targets you shoot and how seriously you take the "sport". If you shoot 10,000-25,000 targets per year, your "inexpensive" O/U will run from $1700-$2500 minimum and then up to about $9,000 for a plain grade "expensive" shotgun, depending on what you want. That's a gun that's reliable, durable, probably shoots to point of aim, the rib stays on, ejects shells, doesn't break, potential correct stock dimensions, chokes, etc. And, a company that can back up their products.

If you hunt a bit, shoot clay targets a bit, maybe have 2-5,000 rounds in the gun within 20 years, that's a "different" ballgame. I'd probably look at the Spartan by Remington, at least you will have a company that can back it up.

But, overall, for that kind of money, your best bet is the 1100 IMO.

[Dave McCracken]

PS, you shoulda been with me today at PGC. Among the Usual Suspects, there were the following shotguns....

One Parker 20 gauge.

One Bespoke Grulla. Bespoke means it was made to order for that shooter.

One Perazzi O/U.

My Beretta O/U, the entry level White Onyx 686.

A Winchester SX1.

A BT 99.

An off brand SXS made someplace in eastern Europe.

A Parker Repro in 20 gauge.

An 870 Express. This was a 28 gauge toted and used by a young man, son of one of our members.

Some of these guns have "Snob" appeal. Some, like the SX1, have some cult following.

All are right good shooters.

Chinese trap is challenging, which is why we shoot it. Some scores were over 20/25. Mine among them.

I bought the B gun not because of any style points I'd get. I got it after some research because I wanted.....

An O/U suitable for clays than would hold up to a high round count.

That would have commonly available choke tubes.

That would handle similar to my beloved 870s.

And was within my budget.

I went a long time waiting to make this happen. It was worth it.