I tried Buffalo Bore's 158-gr LSWCHP .38 spl+P


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Arrogant Bastard
July 23, 2008, 05:16 PM
I fired 5 rounds of the Buffalo Bore interspersed with my normal range ammo, Remington UMC 130-gr .38 spl with my S&W 640...

Holy cow! It packs rather a whallop. I could DEFINITELY tell which rounds were BB.

I tried firing .38 spl+P Golden Saber with my normal range ammo, and honestly, I couldn't tell which was which. Not a problem with BB -- it was quite obvious when I touched off one of those.

I am considering getting a box of cheap .357 mag ammo and touch off a few of those on each range trip, interspersed with normal .38 spl, just to get used to the extra recoil.

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doc540
July 23, 2008, 05:31 PM
Agreed.....read here (http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=376237)

Quoheleth
July 23, 2008, 05:37 PM
I am considering getting a box of cheap .357 mag ammo and touch off a few of those on each range trip, interspersed with normal .38 spl, just to get used to the extra recoil.

I like Blazer aluminum and Monarch (available at one of many fine Houston Academy stores) for "cheap" maggie loads. If you reload, or if you do a brass swap with one of the on-line commercial reloaders, the Monarch is reloadable. If not, the Blazer is a buck or two less and shoots very well for me out of my 6" GP100 and 3" SP101.

Q

The_Shootist
July 27, 2008, 11:04 PM
Funny you should mention that about Blazer .357 ammo. I was still dialing in my new 642 today, but brought along my SP 101 (3 1/3" bbl) as well with 50 rds of Blazer 158g JHP .357 ammo.

I was stunned at how easy it was to shoot out of my SP 101 - easy recoil, good groups at 7 yds of 3-4 in just a pleasant wxperience.

Don't get me wrong, I could tell I was firing .357 ammo out of my Ruger, it just wasn't the usual head banging/hand wringing experience I had had in the past. Or maybe putting 150 rds through my 642 in the same session sort of innoculated me :D.

If this ammo was any good on the street (and I'm not sure of any specs for how its hollow point performs in actual SD situations or in ballistic gellatin) I might end up falling in love with SP 101 all over again. $ 20 / 50 at Academy , good/accurate weight, easy and accurate on the follow up shots - whats not too like?

Gary A
July 28, 2008, 10:54 AM
I believe the nominal velocity for Blazer 158 grain JHP .357 is 1150 fps from a 4 inch barrel versus a nominal 1235 fps for many 158 loadings. That would account for the better manners. I like shooting the Blazer. They used to put a pretty decent hollowpoint in it but more recently the HP seems like more of a dimple. The only thing I don't like about Blazer is the very light case weight and less-smooth aluminum makes for stickier extraction.

Jim March
July 28, 2008, 04:13 PM
The ONLY drawback to those BB 158+P monsters...well OK, there's two:

1) I personally won't shoot them in "strength marginal" guns. That includes my vintage Charter Undercover, most early-model S&W and Colt snubbies, for SURE the first generation S&W stainless snubs or early S&W stainless K-frame 38s, any pre-WW2 S&W (except of course the "Heavy Duty"!), any aluminum-framed gun (lacking Scandium) period, any vintage 38Spl Taurus or Rossi. Again: this is my personal policy. Some will no doubt disagree with a few of these and that's cool. None should "blow up" but they might wear out a LOT faster.

2) They're also not for use in ultra-light guns even if the gun is strong enough. If the gun is too light, recoil could be extreme enough to yank the bullets out of the shells on rounds not yet fired, lengthening the rounds and possibly tying up the guns. I'm not 100% sure of the cutoff point. At 19oz for a steel S&W snubby you should be OK but I'd still load five, shoot four, carefully examine the last unfired round to make sure it hasn't stretched.

A Charter Undercover (17oz) might be too light. Taurus has made Titanium snubs down around 15oz, and S&W has the infamous 12.5oz 357 and 10.5oz 38. I guarantee you'll have problems with at the 12.5oz level and below!!! Anything above that, test thoroughly (at least two or three runs of "shoot four, examine #5").

Note that S&W makes some larger-frame Scandium snubbies now, including (I think?) an 8-shot built on an N-frame. That latter should be heavy enough to cope with a BB +P load.

Other than these issues, the BB 158+P is the ABSOLUTE king of the 38 snubbie loads, period, end of discussion. Tromps anything in terms of energy, runs right up there with 9mm from a 4" barrel for cryin' out loud. Just an awesome load :).

skoro
July 28, 2008, 05:18 PM
In my 4" Model 10, that Buffalo Bore load is juuust right. I wouldn't even think of trying it in my 642 snubbie, though. :eek:

I'm gonna need the use of my right hand for years to come. ;)

Arrogant Bastard
July 28, 2008, 05:24 PM
I wouldn't shoot 'em from a 642, either. Mine's a 640, rated for .357 mag.

doc540
July 28, 2008, 05:43 PM
"Other than these issues, the BB 158+P is the ABSOLUTE king of the 38 snubbie loads, period, end of discussion."

whooah....that's one of the last things I'd say on a public discussion board.:D

cherryriver
July 28, 2008, 07:10 PM
At a buck a round, I wasn't too keen on lots of Buffalo Bore experimenting. But as someone who was raised on Elmer Keith and his cohorts extolling the virtues of heavy semiwadcutter loads, this BB +P loads look just like what Elmer'd want.
Well, if they were hardcast and didn't have hollow points. But still.
I bought a 20-box and touched off two of them in my Detective Special, while aiming through my chrono.
I got right at 1000fps, for goodness' sake. The recoil was on the stiff side but far from scary. And 1000fps in a snub just knocks me out; that's right on the edge of making major power factor for USPSA. In two inches!
The empties fell right out when I opened the gun. The primers looked good and there were no ill effects noted.
These are what are in my .38s. Wowee.

Arrogant Bastard
July 28, 2008, 07:56 PM
"Other than these issues, the BB 158+P is the ABSOLUTE king of the 38 snubbie loads, period, end of discussion."

whooah....that's one of the last things I'd say on a public discussion board.


For defensive loads in a .38 snubnose, it really is a safe assertion to make.

And for those worried about the cost per round, it's not like you're practicing regularly with them. I shot 5 mixed in with 100 Magtech .38 spl rounds, and now that I know how they feel, I don't feel a need to fire more in practice. Perhaps I will obtain a box of .357, and shoot a few of those interspersed with my regular practice ammo. Is there such a thing as a mild .357 load that would better approximate the recoil from the BB 158-gr +P loads?

Quoheleth
July 28, 2008, 09:13 PM
How does Buffalo Bore stack up (in real-world shooting) to Cor-Bon and DoubleTap, in both .38+P and .357 Magnum?

I know it's a bit of a false comparison, as they use different bullet weights (in their .357 load, for example, BB uses a 125 grain where CB & DT use a 158).

Realizing all three are real wrist-wrenchers, which is king of the pile?

Q

Jim March
July 29, 2008, 02:40 AM
The BB 158+P lead semi-wadcutter hollowpoint is absolutely unmatched in snubby 38 energy levels. Period, end of discussion.

Cor-Bon USED to make an equivelent load, and every once in a while you find them at gun shows or the like. They might be cheaper than BB. But the likely reason the Cor-Bons were canceled was that with no gascheck there was massive barrel lead buildup. Also, Cor-Bon's pressure levels with the 110gr and 125gr 38+Ps were noticeably high and as these rounds pre-date the modern powders BB is using to get these energies, I'm not sure I'd trust the Cor-Bons not to pressure spike into the "red zone" some.

Note the experiences reported in this thread of "shells dropping free cleanly". That's a good thing, it means pressures in the BB aren't all that psycho :).

Doubletap isn't loading a plain lead 158gr slug. That's what's needed for peak performance in a 38snubbie. Lead is slicker than copper. If you ran a 125gr lead slug it would likely come unglued on impact. If you run jacketed 125s you can't match the energy levels of the 158 lead slug.

It really is the snub king.

pps
July 29, 2008, 03:13 AM
If the gun is too light, recoil could be extreme enough to yank the bullets out of the shells on rounds not yet fired, lengthening the rounds and possibly tying up the guns.

I have not had any issues with BB 158gr 38+p tying up my 340pd, but the .357mag chamber is a good 1/10" longer than in a 38 special.

I have had some .357 loadings tie up the cylinder. Wallyworld wwb were the worst offenders.

TAB
July 29, 2008, 03:15 AM
BB is good stuff. I've found that thier numbers are spot on and in some cases low balled.

Then again they actually use guns for testing, not test barrels.

some of thier "heavy" and "+P+" stuff is pretty damn crazy when it comes to power levels.

Quoheleth
July 29, 2008, 08:09 AM
Didn't I read somewhere that BB uses a Ruger GP100 to test its .357 ammo? Maybe its .38+P, too...

If so, that says something about their trust in Ruger, and Ruger's inherent toughness.

Q

cocojo
July 29, 2008, 08:53 AM
Hey Doc540, Did you get your wife squared away after shooting those BB loads? What did she finally settle on? Hornaday & Fiocchi make 125 JHPXTP standard velocity round also.

whichfinger
July 29, 2008, 11:48 AM
I'm still in learning mode. As I understand it, SAAMI specifications are just that: specifications. A manufacturer either meets them or doesn't. If SAAMI specs for .38+p state pressure must be 10% over standard pressure (I don't know what the spec actually says, but for the sake of argument I've picked 10%), and if a manufacturer's ammo clocks in at a consistent 11%, it does not meet SAAMI specs, and is over-powered for a +p rated firearm. OTOH, if the ammo approaches, but doesn't exceed, 9%, it too does not meet SAAMI specs, and is underpowered for a +p load.

So: If every manufacturer produces .38+p to SAAMI specs, why would one brand produce more felt recoil from the same gun than any other, given equal bullet weights?

Jim March
July 29, 2008, 06:27 PM
SAAMI is about peak pressure. A given round will have a "pressure curve" - the pressure will build, peak and then taper off. What kills the gun is the "high spot" in the curve.

BUT: if you "broaden the curve", if you get the pressure to rise quickly but then STAY at a high level for a while before tapering off, you can do what seems to be impossible: produce more actual bullet energy (which affects felt recoil) while not being any harder on the gun than a load with less overall energy yet a HIGHER pressure spike.

That's what Buffalo Bore, Doubletap and Grizzly Ammo are doing: broadening the curve with very specialized powder and extensive testing.

Of the three, Buffalo Bore appears to be the very best by a smidge. Well...wait, Grizzly might be as good but they're doing hardcast-only, no jacketed stuff last I checked. Oh, and there's Garrett also specializing in hardcast, that dude knows what he's doing too!

Without the pressure test gear available to those guys, it's almost impossible to match their performance doing home hand-loading. The only way you can match those guys on your own loading bench is to use "overstrength" guns that are abnormally strong for a given caliber, and even then it's risky. As you hit the edge of the envelope and then add fractionally more powder, you run the risk of a kaboom as tiny additional charge amounts can cause pressure to spike wildly. When you're in a realm where a 2% charge increase causes a 25% or more pressure rise, whoa, you're dancing on a knife's edge.

The "hot ammo houses" are starting with special test setups that are as close to unbreakable as possible, as they measure what's going on at this "edge". Only then do they test candidate products in real guns.

They don't explore the edge in real guns.

whichfinger
July 29, 2008, 06:45 PM
Ah ... thanks so much for the concise and logical explanation. The fog clears a bit. :) But I would guess barrel length plays a major role in the equation. If a round is optimized for, say, a 4" barrel, wouldn't most of that pressure surge get turned into flash and bang in a snubby instead of penetration and expansion? IOW, BB, et al, +p in a 2" barrel is pretty much a waste of money?

cherryriver
July 29, 2008, 07:48 PM
I wouldn't fret too much about the four-inch. I ran the same Buffalo Bore 158 +P and got about 1060 in a four-inch Python, sixty more feet per than the snub.
Another point I'd make about the Buffalo Bore is that while stiff, the recoil impulse is nothing outrageous.
While it doesn't hold as much for sixguns, I spent a bunch of time working out what major-power load kicked the least in a 1911. Changing powder makes some huge differences, and the fastest burner kicked the least.
I'll have to spend some time experimenting for the .38, but I do know that at the +P threshold with 158gr Berry's, VV320, relatively fast for the caliber and case size, makes a nice push-like load compared to VV350 or Unique.
Buffalo Bore obviously hit on a special combination.

Jim March
July 29, 2008, 09:39 PM
The BB 38Spl and 38+P loads are ALL tuned for 2" barrels. In fact with a gain of only 60fps going to a 4" barrel, that would indicate that the powder charge is getting mostly burned up in the first 2" - normally I'd expect more boost out of a 4" over a 2" (closer to 100fps difference).

BUT: while Pythons are accurate, they're not known for being "fast spitters" like the newer S&W tubes and most Rugers. So the test out of a 4" Python may not mean that much...

What really matters is "how fast is the slug going, and what speed does it need to expand?"

We know that 158gr all-lead hollowpoints by Remington expand well at 850fps, which they usually get in a snub when loaded by Remington at +P. Assuming the Buffalo Bore is ballpark similar a slug, then the 850-870 range it gets in standard pressure should be fine, and the 1,000fps they get in +P and a snubby will be great :).

OK, so what if you have a 6" barrel 38Spl gun? Not a common setup but they do exist...they tend to be older models like the Colt Officer's Match 38 (the Python's ancestor) or various old S&Ws. If you shoot BuffBore +P in these, first, you're accelerating the wear of a classic gun and second, you might have been better off shooting the BuffBore standard pressure version.

Any hollowpoint can be "overdriven" - move it too fast on impact and the nose will expand but then "shred" and you're left with a shortened wadcutter that's maybe 30% lighter than the original slug and only slightly fatter than original if at all. This isn't optimum, although it'll still hurt :).

The BuffBore +P variant might end up overdriven out of a 6". The standard pressure load (starting out 150fps or so slower) is more likely to work from a long tube.

As a bonus you put less wear on a vintage gun.

Another point:

It's easier to get this "long mild pressure spike" effect with a large-case-capacity shell. A lot of people successfully drive 44magnum energy levels with the same weight and speed of bullet in 45LC from a strong gun (Ruger full-size single action, or Redhawk, SuperRedhawk, Colt Anaconda, etc.). When you do, the 45LC+P setup will get that work done with as much as 10,000psi less peak pressure versus 44Maggie because the 45LC's case capacity is bigger. Firing these bigger-shell recipes gives you as much recoil as on an equivelent 44Mag load, but the 45LC's "recoil profile" feels "mellower". It's like the difference between your hand getting pushed on versus slapped - the total energy delivered to your hand might be the same, but the way you feel it is radically different.

We're seeing some of that effect with the BuffBore 158+P. Yeah, the energy is really there but because it's tuned to issue that power over a broader area of time (even if we're only talking tiny fractions of a second), the power delivery isn't as horrid as the raw numbers might suggest :).

doc540
July 29, 2008, 10:07 PM
"Hey Doc540, Did you get your wife squared away after shooting those BB loads? What did she finally settle on? Hornaday & Fiocchi make 125 JHPXTP standard velocity round also."

Thanks for asking, Cjo.

We now have 500 rnds of Master Cast 100gn wadcutters, but we haven't been able to get back to the range to shoot. Hope to go one evening this week.

I'll post a report.

whichfinger
July 29, 2008, 10:46 PM
This has been a very informative thread. Keep it up, guys - my head ain't nowhere near exploding yet. ;)

mtngunr
July 30, 2008, 01:20 AM
For a real knuckle duster from Speer blow-up manual days, we used to shoot the Keith 160grSWC over 12-12.5grs/2400 in .38Spl brass out of the then-new M60's...this is an exciting load in a Ruger Blackhawk old model, and I DON'T recommend anyone try it in anything less.

P. Plainsman
August 4, 2008, 03:26 AM
The Buffalo Bore gas checked 158 gr .38+P LSWCHP being discussed is excellent for the Ruger SP101. Good power but controllable in strings of fire.

It's the regular load for my 2.25" DAO Ruger -- which is sitting next to me right now, filled with BB ammo.

Also:

Funny you should mention that about Blazer .357 ammo. ... I was stunned at how easy it was to shoot out of my SP 101 - easy recoil, good groups

I agree, Blazer .357 JHP is a fine ".357 Lite" practice load. It's the most consistently accurate round in my SP101. Unfortunately, I don't trust its "old tech" jacketed hollowpoint for social purposes.

In general Blazer is good for revolvers, esp. if you don't reload. Some of my autoloaders balk on the ammo's aluminum cases -- I won't buy Blazer 9mm anymore, even when steeply discounted -- but I've never had a problem in wheelguns. The Blazer .44 Special, tipped with a modern, wide-mouth 200 grain Gold Dot hollowpoint, is a strong option for a carry load in .44 Spl.

imabballer
August 4, 2008, 06:04 PM
So is the concensus that you should not shoot the BB+p out of a s&w 642? I have been considering getting a box and just shooting a cylinder full or so to test it and then use it as my carry ammo, so I would just be using it VERY sparingly. Do you all think that just a few rounds of this could damage the 642?

P. Plainsman
August 4, 2008, 08:19 PM
Do you all think that just a few rounds of this could damage the 642?

Don't know the answer or have much to add to the thoughts of others above.

Me, I think they'd just be too hard to control in a 15 oz Airweight, even if the gun held up. Remington's "regular-strength +P" 158 grain lead hollowpoint load is my upper limit in a 642. But that's not what you asked.

Jim March
August 5, 2008, 10:34 AM
Why do you want to force us to go to the S&W website to look up the weight of the 642 before answering?

Seriously: what does it weigh?

I suspect the cutoff on the BB 158+P load is somewhere around 19oz. Below that, certainly somewhere below 17oz, you're going to have trouble.

P. Plainsman
August 5, 2008, 03:53 PM
642s weigh 15 oz empty. Happen to have the figure committed to memory.

Jim March
August 5, 2008, 05:29 PM
OK, so it's probably a bad combination.

But you know, it puzzles me why somebody would ask for advice while demanding that we memorize the weight of every gun made. I sure can't.

Ben Shepherd
August 5, 2008, 07:19 PM
In reference to Jims earlier post:

Powder, the camshaft of cartridges.:D

Anyway, I'm agree with the 19ish ounce thing for the cut-off. As noted, under that, momentum wreaks havoc on the slick(relatively) lead.

MCgunner
August 5, 2008, 07:34 PM
No chronograph data? There's advertised velocity and then there's real world velocity from most manufacturers. I'm too cheap to buy any BB to test. It might be 50 fps faster out of a 2" gun than my handloads, but I can't justify paying that much for it, frankly. 275 ft lbs is plenty if it's put in the right place. If I want a magnum, I'll carry one. My 3" Taurus 66 is easier to carry than my 4" M10 and shoots a whole heck of a lot harder and just as accurate. I carry a ultralite .38 for the size and weight convenience. I'm into what the ammo can do out of a 2" barrel. If I carry more gun, I can carry a magnum.

P. Plainsman
August 5, 2008, 07:55 PM
Fair enough. I'll note, though, that (1) the BB stuff we're talking about was evidently designed with snubby barrels in mind. It's labeled "Heavy 38 Special +P Short Barrel":

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#38spl

And (2) the manufacturer does provide specific chrono data (same link):

S&W mod. 60, 2 inch—1040 fps (379 ft. lbs.)
S&W mod. 66, 2.5 inch—1059 fps (393 ft. lbs.)
Ruger SP101, 3 inch—1143 fps (458 ft. lbs.)
S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch—1162 fps (474 ft. lbs.)

Arrogant Bastard
August 5, 2008, 08:04 PM
Buddy of mine showed me a S&W 340 he just bought last night. It was rated for .357 mag.

It is also only 12 oz unloaded -- the thing felt like a toy.

BB's 158-gr LSWCHP +P kicks pretty hard in my 25-oz S&W 640 -- I cannot imagine shooting .357 mag out of a 12 oz gun.

I advised him to try the BB 158-gr LSWCHP standard pressure rounds in his gun.

Jim March
August 5, 2008, 08:54 PM
I advised him to try the BB 158-gr LSWCHP standard pressure rounds in his gun.

Ummm...that MIGHT work, or it might not.

The recoil is still pretty solid with this round. Lead is slick; it's liable to yank out of the shell under recoil. The bullet weight doesn't help either - 158gr means more momentum and a resistance to moving backwards under recoil. Again: I don't know for sure, OK? But the Remmie 158+P lead hollowpoint isn't working in the ultralight guns very well. Recoil will be similar, maybe a *hair* milder in the BB standard pressure but not much.

The Speer Gold Dot 135gr 38+P was designed to resist being yanked in ultralight guns. It's a good round, about on par in wounding with the Remmie 158+P or the BB 158 standard pressure. You might be able to run the very slightly hotter "357" flavor of the Speer 135gr round (which is REAL mild by 357 standards and is marked "short barrel"). I think the BB 158+P will still kick it's butt and send it running home to mama :).

Ben Shepherd
August 5, 2008, 11:17 PM
Jim, the standard pressure BB stuff has worked in at least 1 340 I know of. At least for the 4 cylinderfuls I saw put through it doing a shoot-n-mic test. Just an FYI.

As for the remington stuff? I firmly believe it's thier brass. I've had nothing but grief out of thier pistol brass. The stuff has almost NO neck tension if you try a kinetic puller after seating a slug.(or a collet puller for that matter) Finally gave up on it and got rid of it all a few years back.

Jim March
August 6, 2008, 01:40 AM
Ah. OK, good.

Wait: what's a 340 weigh? I don't keep up with S&W numbers...

pps
August 6, 2008, 01:53 AM
Jim March. Ah. OK, good.

Wait: what's a 340 weigh? I don't keep up with S&W numbers...

12 ounces empty. The cylinders are long enough that bullet pull in the 38+p loading for Buffalo Bore hasn't been an issue for me. I've measured the most pull at .011" on the last round. I think the fillings in my teeth backed out a little further than that.

BB 158gr 38+P lswchp averaged 998 fps
The .357 135gr GDHPSB were 987 fps out of my gun

rdrancher
August 6, 2008, 12:56 PM
I did a little behind the barn comparison using BB's standard and +P rounds out of my 642-1. The entire post can be found here http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/695107034/m/7471076872/p/1
The +P is discussed on page 3.

rd

gwillis6
August 10, 2008, 11:50 AM
imabballer

So is the concensus that you should not shoot the BB+p out of a s&w 642? I have been considering getting a box and just shooting a cylinder full or so to test it and then use it as my carry ammo, so I would just be using it VERY sparingly. Do you all think that just a few rounds of this could damage the 642?

Does your 642 have +P on the barrel? Is the ammunition in question +P?
You have answered your own question. If you have a problem with +P ammo in your +P rated S&W revolver send it to S&W and take advantage of their lifetime warranty.

DawgFvr
August 10, 2008, 12:19 PM
For me...the 110 grain Corbon DPX + P is the perfect round for my 642.

I am accurate with it...it feeds well...has reliable expansion and penetrates.

Recoil is light enough that I can get back on target quickly for follow up shots.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e61/DawgFvr/642/LG2.jpg

SAWBONES
August 10, 2008, 12:35 PM
For me...the 110 grain Corbon DPX + P is the perfect round for my 642.

I too like being assured of adequate penetration, but I've not generally believed that the typically lighter weight bullets used in all the DPX cartridges will shoot to point of aim (POA).
IME, lighter bulleted loads always shoot lower than heavier bulleted loads, even in spite of higher powder charges; since we all know that small snubbies are traditionally sighted to match POA and POI with the 158gr LSWCHP (and this has definitely been my experience with every .38 Special snubby I've shot since 1985, whether from S&W, Taurus or Ruger), where does the CorBon DPX 110gr load hit relative to the 158gr LSWCHP+P?

My first concern in a snubby load (after reliability) is accuracy and precision before penetration, and while I like the DPX concept, I'm unwilling to carry a load which always hits low relative to POA.

hoochburn
August 10, 2008, 01:53 PM
I have an S&W-36 made in 1967. Would that be too old for BB 158 +p? It's in good shape,I dought it's had more than 5 box's of ammo fired through it.

Jim March
August 10, 2008, 06:16 PM
I have an S&W-36 made in 1967. Would that be too old for BB 158 +p?

If that gun was mine, I'd shoot the BB standard pressure 158 in it (best choice) or if I couldn't get those quickly, I'd run small amounts of the Remington 158 lead hollowpoint +P. Your gun is "strength marginal" for +P much like my late '70s era Charter Arms Undercover is.

DawgFvr
August 10, 2008, 11:06 PM
Sawbones...not sure where you heard that the lighter/faster bullets hit lower than POA. This certainly has not been my experience. In fact...the 110 grain Barnes bullet at + P is the most accurate bullet that I have fired in my 642.

Of course...that is my experience. As I said earlier...one should use bullets that measure up to "what can you fire accurately...what expands and penetrates reliably...etc.

DPX is my carry cuz it meets my standards for my weapon.

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