[Cypress]

Have a real life African Safari coming up next month and was planning on bagging me a nice Cape Buffalo wallhanger. I have a good .270 that I'm pretty good with. I know I'll have to bump the bullet weight up to at least 150 grainers to get enough penetration. I'm thinking head or spine shot. I'm sure my PH will think I didn't bring enough gun but wait till he sees me shoot. I've read about a lot of Buff being killed with smaller rounds with good shot placement. Some of those native folks used to use spears. So what do ya'll think. What's your minimum caliber for Cape Buffalo?

Sorry, just absolutely could not resist.

[freakshow10mm]

The .375 H&H I'm building.

[Shawnee]

Rifle - NEF Handi-Rifle in .243 w/Simmons 18x36x50

Handgun - Uberti 1861 Navy .36 cal.


:rolleyes:


P.S. Tree stand. TALL tree.

[ArmedBear]

I'm sure a few very well placed shots from a .270 could kill it from a hundred yards on open ground, with a steep ravine between you and the buffalo.

That's really not the most common scenario I've read about, though.

"Kill" and "stop" are two different things, of course.

[Eric F]

I was thinking that Cape buffalo are on the 41 caliber minimum list. I could be wrong but I seem to remember reading this before. So I say pick a 416 of some sort and run with it.

As always check the rules for where you are going.

[Gaiudo]

I'm pretty sure the .375H&H is the smallest legal caliber on the African continent for use against dangerous game (the .41 cal minimum was for Kenya, I believe, in which all hunting is now illegal anyways). Could be wrong, but that's what my memory serves.

[Grumulkin]

Capstick writes about a Cape Buffalo taken with one shot just behind the ear with a 22 Hornet. So, if you put the bullet right behind the ear you should be OK with a 270 Winchester.

A 375 caliber firearm is legal for Buffalo everywhere they're hunted. Except for some metric cartridges (.366 caliber if my memory serves me correctly), it's also the minimum bore diameter you can legally use. It doesn't have to be a 375 H&H Magnum though at least some places also list a minimum muzzle energy which would probably eliminate some offerings like the 375 Winchester.

[Cypress]

This didn't work out as I had planned. LMAO!!!! What if I were to come across a good elephant? A well placed shot to the heart should fold him up pretty good. Don't you think??

[T-Ray]

What if I were to come across a good elephant? A well placed shot to the heart should fold him up pretty good. Don't you think??
I'm not sure if this is 100% accurate, and it's not directly an answer to what you asked, but i've heard the only way to stop a charging elephant is with a shot to the brain head on. I'd be a lot more comfortable with a 45/70 or around there.

[Gaiudo]

Um..... are you serious? Or just trolling? A 270 would perhaps kill a calm elephant, but in a charge.....? Killing and stopping aren't the same thing. Again, I believe .375 is the smallest you are going to be able to use for danger game (elephants included). So from a legal standpoint, you're going to have to find a different gun anyways.

How much are you spending on this hunt? Wouldn't it be worth it to have an appropriate gun?

[one-shot-one]

i think (hope) that Cypres has his tounge in his cheek.;)
that said back in the day Jack O'conners wife use to shoot buf's with a 30-06 and soilds.....
:neener:

[Cypress]

Ah one-shot-one caught me!!! I was just messing around since the minimum caliber thread got so much dander up. I was simply equating that .223 against deer may be like .270 against buffalo. Seems the main difference is that most thought it would do the job but since the buffalo poses a little more health risk then I should use the appropriate caliber. I,however,believe that the far from aggressive whitetail deserves the same respect that the buffalo demands. It's not about my life being in danger but about me doing everything I can to make a quick kill. After all, we are all sportsman here.....Aren't we??? Hmmmm. Pretty sure I just opened up the old Can-O-Worms.

[Gaiudo]

It most certainly is about your life being in danger, when it comes to caliber choice in Africa. Sorry.

[rcmodel]

Doesn't matter what the guide thinks, or how well you can shoot a .270, or what a bunch of us on the internet thinks.

What matters is the .270 is more then likely not a legal caliber for the big five anywhere you go in Africa.

Have you not reviewed the hunting regulations of the country you plan to hunt, like you should have already done months ago?

This seems like a question you should have sorted out with your outfitter way before 6 weeks or less from the trip!

rcmodel

[ArmedBear]

It most certainly is about your life being in danger, when it comes to caliber choice in Africa. Sorry.

Ever read "The Short Happy Life of Francis Macomber" by Hemingway?

http://www.geocities.com/cyber_explorer99/hemingwaymacomber.html

Most certainly, Gaiudo, you're right. And if the story is anything to go by, I'd want nothing more powerful than a Red Ryder!:D

[JERRY]

thats easy, its the 10mm, it will do anything......just ask some of the guys at glocktalk.com

[Kosh75287]

I've never hunted off of this continent, so keep this in mind when I offer the following. Even so, I'm CERTAIN that I'll invite voluminous controversy with these comments, but here goes....

For a Cape Buffalo/Elephant rifle, I would want the following:

1.) Bore diameter no smaller than .400".
2.) Bullet weight no lighter than 350 grains.
3.) Muzzle velocity no less than 2300 f/s.
4.) Barrel length no more than 22".
5.) Sight radius no less than 16".
6.) "Express" style rear or "Ghost Ring" rear sight, broad post front sight.
7.) At least one repeat shot (i.e. double rifle or bolt action, NO SINGLE SHOTS).
8.) Three sling swivels. Two located in the customary places, one located forward of the trigger guard, for use with a "CW" sling.

Okay, let the rabid reprobates have their way with all that is wrong with MY requirements, but that's what I'D want.

[mbt2001]

I myself would use a .416 rigby... Big bullet, excellent dangerous game round.

[BattleChimp Potemkin]

Funny thing is, I inherited my grandfather's Weatherby in .460 Weatherby Mag. Thing is immaculate and handmade (no Vanguard or Mark here).

Now I want to go to Africa and take a Prarie Tank!:D

[ArmedBear]

There's just one question. Which end of the .460 Weatherby would you rather be on when it fires?

[Kosh75287]

I kept hearing that the .460 launched its bullets too fast to stay together when it hit heavy game. It seems the PHs liked the round much better when it was loaded down a little, say 500 grains at 2400 to 2500. I'm reaching WAY back on what I was reading, so feel free to correct this.

[ArmedBear]

http://www.barnesbullets.com/images/NewProductsBandedSolids.jpg

You can now get solid Copper/Zinc alloy bullets from Barnes, and you can buy .460 W loaded with the 500 grain bullets -- for over a hundred bucks a box.:)

They're not supposed to disintegrate, come hell or high water. "Hell" is probably an apt description of how it feels to sight in said rifle from the bench.

[Gaiudo]

Kosh, you'll get no complaints from me.

[Kosh75287]

Thanks, Gaiudo. I don't presume to have all the answers, but I can USUALLY come up with a direction in which to go looking. I thought for certain that I was inviting fire from the .375 H&H crowd for my "no smaller than .400" criterion. I know that plenty of Capes have been taken with one. I just have a lot more faith in bigger, fatter bullets.

[Gaiudo]

I'm personally planning on taking a .375H&H next summer for Buff, so yep, I guess I'm one of that crowd. I do think the .375 has stopping capability in MOST circumstances. That being said, everyone I've talked to with PH or Safari experience would agree the stopping power of the .470NE or the .458Lott is to be lauded. The smaller calibers just can't compete with that kind of energy.

[Gun Slinger]

During my last safari in Tanzania (August 2002), I took two Cape Buffalo.

I took the first Cape Buffalo (38") with a Winchester Model 70 Stainless Classic calibered in .375 H&H (the legal minimum for dangerous game in Tanzania) at an initial range of ~80 meters, which required a total of seven shots (all hits) in order to bring the resultant and uexpected charge to an end within 15' of where I stood.

The second Cape Buffalo (43") was taken at ~70 meters with a Winchester Model 70 Stainless Classic calibered in .30-06 and only required three shots (all of which connected) before the Buff went down. Ammunition used was the now discontinued 180 gr. Winchester FailSafe.

Cape Buffalo can be taken with just about any centerfire rifle caliber of reasonable power (non-magnum long and medium length cartridges like the .30-06, .270 Win., .280 Rem., .308 Win., etc. using bullets of more durable construction) so long as one takes the time to "engineer the shot" for the animal's anatomy and position and puts the bullet where it needs to go.

[T.R.]

Some African nations require 375 as minimum bore. Best advise is follow the lead of your PH.

I saw these water buffalo at Brady Ranch in Florida. They're actually larger (weight) than Cape Buffalo. Frank Brady told me has witnessed a big bull soak up 5 or more well placed 30-06 bullets. He strongly recommends a larger rifle than 30-06. This sort of eye witness report should not be ignored.

TR

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c146/rushmoreman/asianwaterbuffalo.jpg

[Bartkowski]

Wasn't there a story in some gun rag last month about a hunter shooting a cape buffalo with 220gr. bullet from a .30-06? Went down in one shot if I recall correctly.

However, I would not want less than a .375 H&H.

[Geno]

Doc shrieks, pauses and reflects:

Oh my word! The one second-from-the-left looks like my 5th grade teacher! :eek: She always raised her head like that, and gave me that disapproving look like she was going to stomp me into the floor. One day she did too...seriously!

Some countries require .375 or larger, others require .416 or larger. In some cases the guide sets the standard. Unfortuante for me, the closest I have come to a cape buffalo was that 5th grade teacher. Then again, the real cape buff might be a little more stable. I think that H&H Hunter has faced down many an African beast, as have many others around these THR parts. Hopefully some will stop by to post some of his work. :cool:

<<Doc looks back at that picture and flees>>

[JShirley]

I took the first Cape Buffalo (38") with a Winchester Model 70 Stainless Classic calibered in .375 H&H (the legal minimum for dangerous game in Tanzania) at an initial range of ~80 meters, which required a total of seven shots (all hits) in order to bring the resultant and uexpected charge to an end within 15' of where I stood.

The second Cape Buffalo (43") was taken at ~70 meters with a Winchester Model 70 Stainless Classic calibered in .30-06 and only required three shots (all of which connected) before the Buff went down. Ammunition used was the now discontinued 180 gr. Winchester FailSafe.

So...are you really telling us that you went all the way to Africa, paying thousands of dollars, to break the law, even after almost dying while using more gun?

John

[Cypress]

This went horribly wrong!!!!

[koja48]

I have no desire to fire something that "kills at one end & maims at the other," but if it were me I'd be inclined to seek the counsel of someone like H&H.

[moojpg2]

c'mon guys, I just took a huge buff with my .22 short :rolleyes:

[Gun Slinger]

So...are you really telling us that you went all the way to Africa, paying thousands of dollars, to break the law, even after almost dying while using more gun?

John

No.

I am telling you that I went to S.E. Africa on a Safari and had the unparalleled opportunity of a lifetime to take two Cape Buffalo with the .375 H&H and the .30-06 and the unanticipated performance that I bore witness to while employing both of these venerable calibers was an exciting and unpredictable surprise to me. It serves as proof that no one can anticipate the reaction of or the determination displayed by such a brave and purely noble adversary and that (within reason) shot placement and cool, deliberate performance can trump horsepower when the situation demands.

In addition to being an excellent demonstration of non sequitir, the intention implied in your question above that my purpose for traveling to Africa was simply and solely to engage in an illegal activity is based upon the flawed and terribly misinformed assumption that I broke the law in the first place.

In fact, I obtained written permission for the legal deviation from that hunting regulation from the Tanzanian Game Officer (they have that abilty) assigned to me throughout the duration of my Safari and did so not only with his "Official Governmental Blessing" but, also with a full understanding of both the shooting skills that I was bringing to the table in this endeavor as well as a comprehension of the fate that could possibly await me should I fail to perform adequately, the task that I had chosen to undertake.

Incorrectly you assert, that I "almost died" during the charge of my first Cape Buffalo in which the .375 H&H was employed. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Instead, I emerged from that experience unharmed and more alive than I have ever been, confident in the possession of the knowledge that should I ever face unexpected adversity and uncertainty in the presence of such an unquestionably lethal threat, I can rise to the challenge and meet my fate, whatever it may be, without fear.

I also have the pictures to prove that I have done as I said I have, so if you are questioning my veracity (as you seem to be), I'd be pleased to back them up with solid photographic proof.

[Gaiudo]

um, sure, pictures are always great!

:-)

[cjanak]

"There's just one question. Which end of the .460 Weatherby would you rather be on when it fires?"

That made me laugh at loud here at work!

[MCgunner]

I've been told a good shot can kill anything with a .223, so I'm sellin' all my rifles and getting a .223. It's the greatest caliber ever designed for hunting, so they tell me.:D

[Gaiudo]

oh boy, MCgunner mentioned .223. Now we can just wait for the tactical crowd, and this thread will be complete.

[JShirley]

Gun Slinger,

Okay. Just think about how what you wrote the first time may have looked to those who aren't you.

flawed and terribly misinformed assumption that I broke the law in the first place

Yet you accuse me of non sequitur?

You stated .375 was the minimum legal caliber. How are we to magically know you "obtained written permission"? Should you really be upset at us for believing what you've written?

You then mentioned stopping the charge only 15' away. That seems close to me. If it's close, then it would seem that your life was indeed in danger.

Anyway, thanks for the clarification, and I'm glad you're still here.

John

[JShirley]

Alright guys, let's stay somewhat on-topic. Ninjas and elephant scrotum shots ain't.

J

[Jim Watson]

I don't remember which of the gunzine writers it was, but he had a bit of experience in Africa, and he had an interesting line.

Hunter: "Took me and the guide 7 shots to down that buffalo."
Writer: "What were you shooting, .375 H&H?"
Hunter: "Well, yes, but how did you know?

[Gun Slinger]

Gun Slinger,

Okay. Just think about how what you wrote the first time may have looked to those who aren't you.



flawed and terribly misinformed assumption that I broke the law in the first place

Yet you accuse me of non sequitur?

You stated .375 was the minimum legal caliber. How are we to magically know you "obtained written permission"? Should you really be upset at us for believing what you've written?

You then mentioned stopping the charge only 15' away. That seems close to me. If it's close, then it would seem that your life was indeed in danger.

Anyway, thanks for the clarification, and I'm glad you're still here.

John


If one engages in non sequitur and I point it out, then I am guilty of nothing except for stating that which is obvious. I am saddened that you saw fit only to engage in snide innuendo rather than ask a simple question of me. I suppose that such behavior is just a sign of the times.

My post was simply in response to the OP's question asking those of us who care to respond what we would consider to be the "minimum caliber" for Cape Buffalo.

In the spirit of sharing those experiences that have enriched me so, I presented two salient examples from my personal base of experience in which two different calibers were used against two animals of the same species with differing and unexpected results only to have you make the insinuation that the only reason that I spent thousands of dollars in order to travel to S.E. Africa was for the sole purpose of violating the law by stating,

"So...are you really telling us that you went all the way to Africa, paying thousands of dollars, to break the law, even after almost dying while using more gun?"

and implying that I am both of dubious ethical standing and apparently stupid for engaging an animal with a "lesser" caliber/gun. I survived both encounters in fine fashion as is evidenced by the fact that here I sit typing this post and that, in and of itself, should serve as evidence enough that I was skilled enough to do what needed doing. The OP had nothing to do with the various legalities of the employment of a minimum caliber and I didn't see fit to address that aspect since no information had been requested in that regard by the OP and it was not the point of the posted response to begin with. I am unaware of any requirement that compels me to post a disclaimer within each post that I make on THR.

In the future, you might consider asking a question if you are unsure of, or lack the specific topical knowledge regarding such an issue, rather than making a snide insinuation regarding someone's ethics. Such a question would have been a much kinder way of addressing the issue/concern and would've drawn a less terse and more friendly answer than provided above. You may be the Site Administrator, but I have done nothing to deserve the innuendo implied in your statement above and would encourage you to treat those members on your forum with a little more dignity than that which you've displayed towards me.

If you feel that you must lock or deactivate my account as a reprisal to my speaking my mind in this post there is precious little that I can do about it and I'll accept it with the same dignity that I have accepted every condition that I have no control over and continue to move onward and forward as I have had my say and am grateful for that opportunity.

Best to you, yours and all,

:)

[Gaiudo]

^
^
^

Um... chill....

Actually, we had been discussing the legalities of African dangerous game cartridges throughout the thread, and how anything less than a .375 was illegal. So it sure seemed that you were implying use of an illegal gun.

However, JShirley isn't getting on your case, just analyzing what you said (I had the same questions come to mind). Seemed like a pretty good question he asked, actually, and glad you could clarify post facto.