Why a revolver.


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Carl Levitian
July 25, 2008, 04:01 PM
Most people who know me, also know I have a very strong bias toward the revolver. At the present time, the only auto pistol I have is an old Ruger standard model I bought new for 39'95. That tells you haow long ago it was bought new by me.

I wasn't always this way. At one time I was a fan of the 1911, and owned a nice Colt series 70, with the Colt manufactured .22 conversion unit for it with the floating chamber. I sold it off in 1977.

The year 1977 was a pivotal year for my gun preffernces. I had just joined the Trinidad Colorado police department, under Chief Denis Demsey. In Colorado back then, a police officer could use any gun of his choice, as long as it held at least 6 shots, was of at least .38 caliber, and had at least a 4 inch barrel. Since I had served in the U.S. Army, the 1911A1 and I were old friends. When I went off to the C.L.E.T.A. (Colorado Law Enforcement Training Acadamy) I took my .45 with me. I was planning on qualitfying with it as my service weapon.

Plans change.

In the thrird week of the acadamy, the range instructor was a Sgt. Tom Crowe, and our head training officer was Sgt. Ralph Smith, with a Captian Stewart as commanding officer. Sgt. Crowe remarked that he saw some of us had plans on using an auto pistol for our service weapon. Okay, he said, but first he wanted us to listen from somebody. Sgt Crowe was a die hard revolver man, Smith and Wesson being his God. He must have been good, as he was a champian PPC competitor.

This morning in question, he went over and opened the side door to the classroom we were in, and a young guy in his 20's wheeled himself in. He was in a wheelchair. He addressed the class.

He had been a Pueblo police officer, and had been carrying a Smith and Wesson model 39. One day he had stopped a car for blowing a stop sign, and unknown ot him, the guy had just robbed a gas and go. It had not gone out on the air yet. They guy jumps out with an old M1 carbine, and opens fire on the officer. The officer returns fire, or tries to, but this model 39 jams on the first shot, with a smokestack. While the officer is trying to do the tap rack bang drill, the guy with the carbine runs up to him and shoots him three times. Two of the bullets do little damage while going through the second chance vest he has on, but one of them severs his spine at the waist.

He sat there telling us of the incident, and how he would never walk again, go anyplace without that wheel chair, never make love with his wife again, never get to play ball with his young sone again. It was a very thought provocking afternoon. He told us if he had the chance to do it over again, he'd be carrying a revolver.

They let us go early that day, and I went out and sat in my jeep for a while. I did some thinking, and I knew what I was going to do. I traded in my old .45 auto and .22 conversion kit on a new Smith and Wesson model 64, and the gunshop tossed in a set of pachmier grips and some HKS speed loeaders. I shot that 64 for many years, and I still have it. Over the last 31 years I've not had a single malfunction from it, or the model 60 with the bobbed hammer that was my duty back up and off duty gun. I loved my 1911, but like most auto's, it would bobble once in a great while. I deceided not to gamble, and went with a gun that would not let me down. To this day, niether revolver has yet to malfunction, no matter what type of bullet or load goes through it.

I remember Sgt. Smith telling us that the averige gunfight is a couple yards, a couple shots, in a couple seconds. Close, fast, and its all over one way or the other.

I love my revolvers.

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19-3Ben
July 25, 2008, 04:44 PM
Well, had you posted this in the non-specific handguns subforum, you'd have the auto guys up in arms (:o) about how a malf with an auto is easier and faster to clear than a malf with a wheelgun, and about how one example of how poor training ended up getting a guy crippled shouldn't mean much.

But you're in the revolver subforum, where you get guys who use wheelguns and are willing to bet their lives on them.

My bedside gun is a wheelgun, and my most carried CCW is also a wheelgun.

The only auto I really carry now that isn't is my pocket gun.

Edit to add:
I just shoot and like wheelguns better. Personal preference.

Phil DeGraves
July 25, 2008, 05:00 PM
The officer returns fire, or tries to, but this model 39 jams on the first shot, with a smokestack.

Well, I like both, but this guy's story is ridiculous. No auto pistol will jam into a stovepipe before firing one shot. If he didn't have anything chambered, then, he didn't know how to operate the gun or the agency policy got him injured. If the agency didn't let him carry a backup, shame on his agency. Everybody blames the gun; the antis do the same thing. We know better.

crebralfix
July 25, 2008, 05:06 PM
All that story shows is that the victim had no idea how to quickly clear a jam. There was no information regarding maintenance or training.

It is NOT proof that revolvers are more reliable than semi-automatic handguns. It's a trade-off in malfunction types and drills, that is all.

If you shoot revolvers well and know how to operate them well, then I see no reason to change. At least you're carrying a gun!

elChupacabra!
July 25, 2008, 05:16 PM
I tend to agree with the dissent.

Modern autoloaders have come along way since 1977 - guns made by the big players like HK, SIG, even GLOCK rarely ever suffer a stoppage of any sort, when fired by a properly trained operator, and clearing them is usually faster and easier than reloading a 6-shot wheelgun from a speedloader. The ease and rapidity with which an autoloader can be operated, to me, make them more viable than a revolver as a defensive weapon.

Somebody always has to lose in a gunfight. The bad guy, with a carbine, had the upper hand over the officer from the start. The jam didn't help anything, but there's no guarantee that a revolver would have saved him from being paralyzed.

To me, to pick one fight and the cause of the outcome and say THIS EXAMPLE EXCLUSIVELY defines my choice for firearms is a little narrow-sighted. I would rather look at the big picture, since a million things can go wrong. I'd take a look at the big picture and try to determine as best I could the probabilities of different things going wrong.

As they say, you pays your nickel and you takes your chances.

But, still, at least you are armed, and comfortable with your choice. That's the REALLY important thing. :)

Reddbecca
July 25, 2008, 05:18 PM
Why a revolver.

The simple answers include: Why not, nobody's going to care the difference for the first six shots, nobody makes a compact semi-automatic .357 Magnum, they don't jam, etc.

elChupacabra!
July 25, 2008, 05:26 PM
The simple answers include: Why not, nobody's going to care the difference for the first six shots, nobody makes a compact semi-automatic .357 Magnum, they don't jam, etc.

True, if you like it, are comfortable with it, etc. - go for it! But to answer your points, some counter points:

1) most fights end in 6 shots. Not all do. If you want a compact .357 Magnum, make that 5 shots.

2) .40S&W, .45ACP, .357SIG are very potent rounds as well, and available in a slew of compact autoloaders. Remember the officer who shot a bg 5 times with a .357Mag to be killed with a .22lr through the heart? Strange things happen, there's no "magic bullet..."

3) Many, if not most, people shoot an autoloader better than a revolver, especially a compact 357 revolver, due to the self-reciprocating recoil management mechanism built into every semi-automatic firearm, the potential for a nice, light, single-action trigger, etc.

Again, not trying to start a huge flame war, just some counter points... but you're right, if you want one, go for it :)

Ed4032
July 25, 2008, 05:30 PM
I had a revolver jam on me before. The primer backed out just enough that the gun was jamed. I had to send it in to S&W loaded for them to repair it.

FerFAL
July 25, 2008, 05:44 PM
People got killed because their autos FTF and other died because they shot their revolvers empty and where left a round too short to survive.

For me there’s no doubt, pistol all the way. Pistol and backup.

The only autos I carry are the ones that NEVER failed me. Not once in thousands of rounds.

FerFAL

critter
July 25, 2008, 05:44 PM
What happened to his FIRST shot?

FerFAL
July 25, 2008, 05:49 PM
Lets see what Carl Levitian says, but bad guy brings out a rifle, officer draws and shoots in a hurry…
Pretty sure he missed.

FerFAL

mbt2001
July 25, 2008, 06:21 PM
by a properly trained operator

That is bunk... Some guns don't like HP's or other ammo, mags get worn, feed ramps need polishing, extractors break. Saying the quoted remark pushes it off onto the "user". Remind me of my IT Department, NOTHING is their fault.

Anyway, revolvers are great guns, require less maintence, are durable, accurate, have never ever had a failure to feed, or failure to eject, can be reloaded as fast as an auto come in versatile rounds.

I can leave a revolver fully loaded in a box for 50 years and then fire the booger... Do that with an auto.... You can't.

RevolvingCylinder
July 25, 2008, 07:26 PM
I can leave a revolver fully loaded in a box for 50 years and then fire the booger... Do that with an auto.... You can't.
Actually you can and it's been done.

Revolvers have the upper hand in mechanical reliability in that they're manually fed and cartridges are manually ejected. There is no feeding/extracting/ejecting mechanism to fail. The most common failure with DA revolvers involves people who don't know how to properly operate a revolver that get rims stuck under the ejector with improper technique. Revolvers require training for proficiency too. I would say that they require more training. Good DA trigger manipulation and speedloads skills are important for the DA revolver.

Not that automatics aren't reliable. Revolvers just have the upper hand. Granted someone could use the weak and illogical argument that revolvers can break parts and become unusable while an automatic can not or will not when I've witnessed autos doing just that.

A fact that a lot of anti-revolver people can't grasp is that a skilled revolver shooter is no worse armed than someone with a pistol.

I prefer revolvers for their combination of accuracy, reliabilty, and comparatively powerful cartridges. My prime reason would be the feel of the action.

MMCSRET
July 25, 2008, 07:30 PM
I'm on the revolver side for all the reasons stated and!!!!!!!!!! with a revolver their is or should be the inherent sense of marksmanship instead of the current(last 20 years) rage for firepower and larger magazines.

LA Rondo
July 25, 2008, 07:44 PM
I can't believe any officer being out there without a backup gun somewhere on his body.

I had a revolver jam on me before. The primer backed out just enough that the gun was jamed. I had to send it in to S&W loaded for them to repair it.No kidding. Yet, this an ammo issue causing the revolver to malfunction.

TallPine
July 25, 2008, 08:38 PM
I just like revolvers better. Just like some guys prefer blondes and some prefer brunettes or redheads.

Why buy and carry something that I don't particularly like?

SAWBONES
July 25, 2008, 09:05 PM
Another old saw, and more "straw man" arguments.

Can't people discuss things intelligently and honestly?

Why am I even reading this thread? :barf:

RickH
July 25, 2008, 09:43 PM
I'll admit I have a little more faith in revolvers than I do in autos. I own more autos though, they are great fun at the range.
The officer mentioned went up against a guy with a rifle with a hand gun. He was at a serious disadvantage to begin with.

Mongrel
July 26, 2008, 01:19 AM
Ok...let's take a breath...

Carl stated that the pistol jammed "on the first shot". Let's repeat that-"ON THE FIRST SHOT". Obviously, the first shot fired either missed or failed to incapacitate the bad guy. It then stovepiped...

Secondly, did we miss the fact that this is 1977? I may be wrong but I believe this was a period of transition from revolvers to autos and I feel confident to say that the focus on training and with pistols may not have been as comprehensive as it is today. That's why I'm not comfortable armchair quarterbacking the officer who was shot or his department in this regard. I simply don't believe that it's fair to judge someone's reaction to an individual coming at them with a carbine from thirty feet away. That's hardly enough time to do much of anything even if you are trained. Other issues to this scenario may never be known such as why he didn't fall back when the BG advanced. Also, I personally know many LEOs who never carry a backup gun-never. Many of them don't bother carrying off duty either (take into account that I live in a pretty affluent area with admittedly little violent crime), and for them qualifying is a once a year or maybe every six month experience and is the only time their duty weapon leaves the holster. Contrast that with the average poster here who shoots on a weekly basis and you can understand why someone may not be as prepared for such an encounter as *we* think they should be.

I didn't read Carl's piece as a dogmatic assertion of why YOU should sell your pistols and buy revolvers. I read it for what it is-a personal account based on personal experience leading to a personal decision that Carl made. Anything can fail-and I think we all know that.

I'm not saying we shouldn't argue the point, as such discussions are ultimately helpful to those faced with such decisions, only that it needn't devolve into something nasty and personal....

Elvishead
July 26, 2008, 04:30 AM
I converted with no help or coercion from anybody, but if I was a Cop the only revolver I would have would be a small J-frame bodyguard for back-up.

Defensory
July 26, 2008, 05:34 AM
Ruger SP101 Malfunction:

"This is a brand new Ruger SP101 357 Magnum. I took it out to the range twice and it malfunctioned like this about every 50 rounds. Pull the trigger and it hangs up. If I needed this to defend myself, I'd be dead. I returned the revolver to Cabela's for a refund. Too bad, because it did shoot nicely but what good is a wheelgun that you can't depend on?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsgd5fZJCjU


Revolver Malfunction at a Cowboy Shoot:

"Another stage with a slight revolver malfunction"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Xl92P_mVDM

pinkymingeo
July 26, 2008, 06:13 AM
Gotta wonder how many BGs the Illinois State Police shoot in a year. Did the number skyrocket from 7 to 12?

woad_yurt
July 26, 2008, 08:37 AM
I own revolvers and semis but there are only two handguns I own with which I am confident in low-light point shooting, both of them revolvers. One is an H&R 676 convertible DA .22. The other is an old S&W K frame .38 SPL, which is now my nightstand gun. I have some killer semi-autos (a few 7.62x25 pistols, a 15 round 9MM, etc) and I'd go with one of these during the day when I'm alert. But, if I was sleepy and in the dark, nothing would be as effective for me as a S&W revolver. Love that K frame.

Stainz
July 26, 2008, 09:09 AM
Nothing is as simple or as natural for me to operate in an emergency than a revolver. I don't expect to ever need more than 2-3 rounds - hope to never need one - but I am a civilian. If I were a LEO or back in the service (I carried a 1911 on SP/POOW in the USN.), I'd want a semi-auto.

Of course, a semi-auto in my world - at the range - is an evil-bottom-feeder - a rude-case-tosser. Revolvers are polite - well trained - they'll dunp their empties in your hand, if you want. Oh, I've owned the flat guns (Hmmm, like a 'round gun', I'm 'round' in the middle...hmmmm?), my G21 saying bye-bye ten years ago - and my wife's CZ-75B following suit some years later. I did get her that Seecamp she wanted since then... and, gads, I still have a MKII .22... unclean!!

I think the compressed mag springs becoming ineffectual due to the extreme 'set' they take being constantly depressed, generally not good for anyone, is a myth. Sure - if left in a glovebox to experience temperature extremes, it may lose some - but a well designed/sprung mag should last. My experience with jams - admittedly only in the AMT DAO .45 Backups I owned - was due to lint. As a part-time RO, I've seen corrosion problems, too - even on the ammo - evidence of serious damp storage. Even Lewis Seecamp states that 'working the spring', ie, loading/unloading, shortens it's useful life. So, long term bottom feeder storage with loaded mags, if in a controlled temp/humidity environment, shouldn't be any more problematic than such revolver use. Barf, I can't believe I wrote that!

Still, I'll take revolvers. Okay, I have been looking at a S&W .45 M&P... free mags... Help, I feel dirty!

Stainz

greener
July 26, 2008, 09:39 AM
I think you carry what you are comfortable with. If I were an LEO or thought I had a high probability of getting into serious gun fights, I'd probably carry my M&P9 with 3 extra mags. As for "reliability" I can find anecdotal evidence for just about every handgun made failing. Most almost never fail. My son is an LEO. His duty weapon is a Glock. His BUG is an S&W 442.

Defensory's post didn't include the reason for failure of the SP101, any attempts to correct the problem, so, in my view, it doesn't condemn that handgun or the class. The reputation of the SP101 is darned accurate and darned reliable.

My opinion of revolver reliability is

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/greener6/DSC02290.jpg

My father bought it used in 1932. I'd guess it is about 80 years old. I've been shooting it for over 40 years. No mechanical repairs. ZERO failures. Still, that's just anecdotal evidence.

My primary carry is an S&W 442.

Kilted Cossack
July 26, 2008, 10:18 AM
Why a revolver? (In my case, why "sometimes" the revolver?)

Lots of reasons! I'll freely admit to a little Walter-Mitty-ism. I like handguns that have "associational links" for me. The 1911---that's the Texas Ranger pistol, the Iwo Jima pistol, the Hue pistol. The Colt Official Police---that's a fine revolving pistol with tons of American police history behind it. (I think it's what Clint Smith's father packed on the beat.) The Single Action Army---John Wayne, 'nuff said?

I like revolvers, too, because I shoot them well in double action. With a slick S&W, Colt or Ruger revolver, I can stroke through the trigger and punch out decent-ish groups pretty easily.

I like revolvers because of their wonderful Victorian look and technology. Let's face it, we don't do things that way any more. I've got an ex-NYPD 4" Official Police round butt .38 Special, and it is a delight.

I like revolvers because with an autopistol I have a tendency to keep saying "just a little more"---more rounds, bigger rounds, blah blah blah. I'll start looking at a Kahr 9mm and end up thinking about a Glock 21. That, too, doesn't happen with revolvers (at least not for me).

And I like revolvers because a few years back, when I was shooting a couple hundred rounds of .38 Special, double action, every week, I beat a guy in a falling plates match. He was shooting a USP .40, and I was shooting a 2" Colt Cobra.

Now, this has been "why the revolver?" It's not a slam at autopistols. I have, and like, autopistols as well (HK P7, Springfield 1911, a hard fit Colt 1911 put together by a former AMU gunsmith, and a few others), and I like them too, for different reasons.

But I don't patrol Fallujah or Compton or Nuevo Laredo, and there are times when it just feels right to slip a Colt Cobra, or Official Police, into the holster.

And there is no fighting handgun that quite speaks to me in the same way as a skinny barrel 4" N frame in .45 ACP. (Of which, sadly, I don't have an example, although I have a custom 1955 Target with a 5" barrel, a 1917/1937 Brazilian contract 5.5" and a 625 3", so I'm in the general vicinity.)

highlander 5
July 26, 2008, 10:48 AM
I have several pistols and revolvers in calibers from 32 auto to
45 acp and have to admit I shoot my 625 the most and one of my Ruger MK II second most. Don't know why it's just me.

Pat Cannon
July 26, 2008, 11:17 AM
My SP101 jammed once because of a malformed rim on a case. My GP100 'jammed', if that's the right word, once because it was really dirty and I failed to push the ammo all the way into a couple of the cylinders. Another time I couldn't pull the trigger because I was shooting with gloves on and hadn't let the trigger reset fully. So revolvers do malfunction -- but these things happen to me about once a year, and they pretty much only happen once.

I too have ditched my 1911s, though I was afraid to do it until Jeff Cooper was dead. ;)

The only downside I've found is at IDPA matches I feel kinda left out of the conversations about how the slide won't lock back with this or that brand of mag, or how the extra .01" overall length on a guy's reloads makes them stovepipe, or how somebody's thumb is hitting the slide release, or how to clear a double feed, or whether the recoil spring weight is right for this ammo, or 'limp-wristing', or why this mag won't drop free, or ... etc. etc. etc.

pinkymingeo
July 26, 2008, 05:26 PM
I believe it's a matter of personal preference. A trained individual can shoot a revolver, accurately, just as fast as a semi. The semi, depending on caliber, might have an advantage in shots before reloading, and a slight advantage in reload speed, but the revolver is generally a little more reliable, less ammo sensitive, and a whole lot more convenient for the handloader. Six of one, half-dozen of the other.

pps
July 26, 2008, 05:53 PM
I don't know how anyone can say one tool is superior to another. To me, it's like asking if a hammer is superior to a screwdriver.

I prefer revolvers simply because. I enjoy shooting 1911's, my brother in laws XD and my father's glock. I just prefer revolvers. That doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with semi-auto's.

FCFC
July 26, 2008, 08:13 PM
Why a revolver? Well, one thing that no one's mentioned yet...

Revolvers are prettier.

Gawd, they look so fine...especially the Smiths.

skoro
July 26, 2008, 09:55 PM
I like autos and I own several that I shoot on a regular basis. They're fine, accurate, reliable pistols. But I keep a pair of S&W revolvers loaded and stashed at home. I figure the rounds can stay in the cylinders for a few years without any detrioration, if need be.

Leaving a modern auto with good magazines loaded for extended periods is probably OK, too. But I have complete confidence that the revolvers will each spit out 6 rounds with no hesitation. With the autos, I have these teensy little doubts in the back of my mind... stovepipe, FTF, FTE.

But I DO keep a 9mm auto in my truck, ready to roll.

And I have to go along with the "prettier" comment, too. Some autos in SS look very high-tech and cool. But a blued revolver witn walnut grips just does it for me.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Image230.jpg

tinygnat219
July 27, 2008, 12:05 AM
While there's nothing wrong with a revolver for carry, modern autos have come such a long way, I will put them against any revolver for reliability any day of the week.

I think the choice of auto vs. revolver is yours and yours alone to make. I don't ridicule someone's choice in a .38 SPL, or someone's choice in a 9MM. Either one has been proven to be lethal many many times over.

However, if someone carries the non-reliable rimfire .22 LR, or Mag in either, especially those little NAA single action revolvers, I question how much they value their lives when there are so many better choices out there in both genres.

Phil DeGraves
July 31, 2008, 03:04 PM
Carl stated that the pistol jammed "on the first shot". Let's repeat that-"ON THE FIRST SHOT". Obviously, the first shot fired either missed or failed to incapacitate the bad guy. It then stovepiped...


That is not what he said. What he said was this.

The officer returns fire, or tries to, but this model 39 jams on the first shot,

Anyway, if he did get the first shot off and missed, what makes you think he would perform better with the subsequent 5 if a revolver, or the 7 in the magazine now that he is being shot at? It's way too easy to blame the equipment.

Phil DeGraves
July 31, 2008, 03:11 PM
Anyway, if he in fact got the first round off and missed, what makes you think he would have performed any better with the next 5 if he had a revolver, now that he is being shot at with a rifle? If he had been armed with a revolver and failed to terminate the guy and ran out of ammo, he would have come to the class in a wheelchair to talk about the advantages of the extra capacity you get with an auto pistol.

It's way to easy to blame the equipment.

DuncanSA
July 31, 2008, 04:03 PM
One can argue this forever, same as the .45 vs 9mm disagreement.

I love revolvers but for PD I carry a 9mm auto. There are simply less parts in an auto that can go wrong or break and one can usually clear a jam easily.

If a revolver jams its normally a bench job to get it working again.

JesseL
July 31, 2008, 05:53 PM
Any auto I could find in .41 Magnum, I wouldn't be able to afford.

tblt
July 31, 2008, 06:16 PM
I have a RG 38 cal revolver that will fire about 4 out of six times due to light primer strikes.I have replaced the mainspring it was good for about 20 rounds than back to the same thing.This revolver will get you killed.I do trust my other 4 revolvers more than my auto's.I don't have any high dollar auto.If I was a cop I would carry at least 2 guns at all times and my main gun would be an auto do to firepower.I carry a sbuby 38 now but plan on getting a LCP soon and will carry both sometimes.

Defensory
July 31, 2008, 06:54 PM
I remember reading in the news about an LEO who was involved in a shootout with a perpetrator in the basement of a house. The LEO had a revolver and the perp had a high capacity semi-auto.

When the LEO had to stop and reload, the perp promptly closed distance and shot the LEO several times at near-point blank range, killing him immediately.

DougDubya
July 31, 2008, 07:05 PM
Loads of hearsay evidence against revolvers abound, especially with minimal detail.

Especially from folks who call certain people liars, then use their very words as their signatures... Defensory.

Defensory
July 31, 2008, 07:39 PM
Posted by DougDubya:
Loads of hearsay evidence against revolvers abound, especially with minimal detail.

Especially from folks who call certain people liars, then use their very words as their signatures... Defensory.

Doug just can't help himself--he always has to make personal attacks and ends up getting threads locked.

That's the same Doug who smeared Edmundo Mireles and Gordon McNeil, two of the legendary FBI heroes who survived the infamous FBI/Miami shootout---by clearly insinuating that they took money "under the table", when they gave their full written and signed endorsements of Dr. W. French Anderson's forensic medical investigation of the tragic event.

I've never questioned Massad Ayoob's reputation and knowledge when it comes to the use of handguns for law enforcement duties and civilian personal/home defense.

However, when Mr. Ayoob makes blatantly erroneous statements about things he clearly isn't qualified to speak on, such as forensic medical investigations etc.---then I will call him on it, regardless of whether his fanboys like it or not.

Now let's get back on topic without your usual personal attacks, Mr. Dubya! :rolleyes:

Defensory
July 31, 2008, 07:53 PM
Cold, hard video evidence of revolver malfunctions:

Ruger SP101 Malfunction:

"This is a brand new Ruger SP101 357 Magnum. I took it out to the range twice and it malfunctioned like this about every 50 rounds. Pull the trigger and it hangs up. If I needed this to defend myself, I'd be dead. I returned the revolver to Cabela's for a refund. Too bad, because it did shoot nicely but what good is a wheelgun that you can't depend on?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsgd5fZJCjU


Revolver Malfunction at a Cowboy Shoot:

"Another stage with a slight revolver malfunction"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Xl92P_mVDM

loneviking
July 31, 2008, 09:23 PM
Defensory, that Ruger was defective! That was not a case of a 'normal' properly operating revolver suddenly jamming and then being cleared as is the case with a semi-auto. The only way I've seen a revolver jam is if the extractor rod comes loose, which is easily fixed with a bit of blue loc-tite.

Ditto for the highly reworked pistol that is used for Cowboy action. The video proves nothing as many of these guns have had their triggers 'pinned' for fanning or other work done to the actions. They are not stock guns.

Semi-auto's specifically have a 'tap-rack-bang' drill, and any gun that has to have that as part of the instruction is nothing I want anything to do with.

DougDubya
July 31, 2008, 10:11 PM
Yes, because single action revolvers are SO often used in combat and self defense these days...

As to personal attacks that get threads closed, I have only been spoken to once, and it was in no relation to your particular brand of duplicitous "fact presentation."

That's the same Doug who smeared Edmundo Mireles and Gordon McNeil, two of the legendary FBI heroes who survived the infamous FBI/Miami shootout---by clearly insinuating that they took money "under the table", when they gave their full written and signed endorsements of Dr. W. French Anderson's forensic medical investigation of the tragic event.

You mean the book that one of the agents said, at length, was AT VARIANCE WITH THE EVENTS AS HE REMEMBERED THEM? That particular book, where the man said "uh, no, that's not what happened?"

bleachcola
July 31, 2008, 10:46 PM
Carl Levitian, that story sound very familiar to my second day of training. On the first day some of us were complaining about our service weapon being an autoloader. Many of us grew up wanting to be lawmen bc of characters like Wyatt Earp with their revolvers. So the next day we were sitting there when a man comes rolling in on his wheelchair. He told us all how it happened. A voice came over the radio while he was cruising one day, telling him about a major disturbance at a local hardware store. A gang was in the process of engaging in armed robbery and a clerk was able to sneak off to the back office and call 911. So the guy shows up just as 7 guys were coming out of the place. He draws his weapon and orders them on the ground. They refused and began to draw their weapons. As fast as Doc Holliday would have floored them, the man put down the first six with .357 Magnum six shot revolver. But oh crap, there was a seventh guy. As he fumbled to reload the guy came up with a shovel (it was a hardware store remember) and smashed him in the face. It knocked loose a cerebral cortex or two and the guy was paralyzed ever since. Ever since that day our department has been using autoloaders with high capacity mags. The moral of this story that I just made up is that you can't make important decisions based on a single case scenario. You have to factor everything into account. Besides, a smart cop always has a backup weapon just in case.

pps
July 31, 2008, 10:50 PM
Besides, a smart cop always has a backup weapon just in case.

That should be the case with a revolver or semi-auto.

bleachcola
July 31, 2008, 11:11 PM
That should be the case with a revolver or semi-auto.

True. But the combined ammo in the primary and secondary piece when using revolvers is only equal to just the ammo in a primary piece when using autoloaders. In the end, a person should just carry what they are comfortable with. I feel more comfortable knowing that I have lots of immediately available firepower without reloading. In the event that I do have to reload, doing so with an autoloader magazine is much easier under adrenaline pumped scenarios. Lining up that magazine to the well is so much easier than lining up bullets into a cylinder when your heart is beating into your throat.

Defensory
August 1, 2008, 12:04 AM
Poor Doug just can't get his facts straight. :p

"The [W. French Anderson] report will serve as a model for all of law enforcement in the area of crime scene reconstruction and will finally set the record straight on one of the most significant and tragic events in FBI history."

FBI Special Agent Gordon McNeill
Decorated for valor for his actions during the FBI Miami Shootout


"I would like the reader to know that to the extent that was humanly possible, Dr. W. French Anderson’s research and conclusions are correct. There might be some slight variation in the sequence of some of the events as we know them, but to the extent possible, the events documented are, to my knowledge, correct. The reader needs to bear in mind that this event was reconstructed by Dr. Anderson ten years after the fact. Four out of the ten participants are dead. We will probably never really know exactly what all their actions were, but I agree with Dr. Anderson’s forensic analysis."

FBI Special Agent Edmundo Mireles
Decorated for valor for his actions during the FBI Miami Shootout

Defensory
August 1, 2008, 02:48 AM
I hate to disappoint some folks here, but that's NOT a single action revolver being used in that Youtube cowboy shoot malfunction I linked to.

Turn up the sound and you can clearly tell it's a double action, and it REPEATEDLY fails to fire.

There's NO evidence that it was a "highly reworked" pistol, nor that it was "pinned for fanning". It was CLEARLY a double action pistol, and the shooter was CLEARLY firing it by pulling the trigger.

Posted by loneviking:
Semi-auto's specifically have a 'tap-rack-bang' drill, and any gun that has to have that as part of the instruction is nothing I want anything to do with.

Semi-automatic pistols are the official sidearms of:

1. All five branches of the U.S. military. (Army, Marines, Navy, Air Force and Coast Guard)

2. All the Special Operations units of all five branches of the U.S. military. (Delta Force, Green Berets, Rangers, Recons, SEALS etc.)

3. All the elite federal law enforcement agencies and units. (FBI; FBI Hostage Rescue Team, Federal Air Marshalls, BATFE, Department of Homeland Security etc.)

3. The State Police of all 50 U.S. states.

4. Every major city police department in the U.S., the vast majority of the medium sized departments, and a growing number of small departments.

5. Virtually every single military branch/unit and law enforcement agency of every country in Europe.


I'm quite sorry, but I'm going to have to give their combined expertise, training and judgement more credence than the dubious opinions of the revolver apologists. :p

loneviking
August 1, 2008, 03:15 AM
Semi-automatic pistols are the official sidearms of:

1. All five branches of the U.S. military. (Army, Marines, Navy, Air Force and Coast Guard)

2. All the Special Operations units of all five branches of the U.S. military. (Delta Force, Green Berets, Rangers, Recons, SEALS etc.)

3. All the elite federal law enforcement agencies and units. (FBI; FBI Hostage Rescue Team, Federal Air Marshalls, BATFE, Department of Homeland Security etc.)

3. The State Police of all 50 U.S. states.

4. Every major city police department in the U.S., the vast majority of the medium sized departments, and a growing number of small departments.

5. Virtually every single military branch/unit and law enforcement agency of every country in Europe.




And the point is? I'm not a cop, not a soldier. Cops and soldiers have backup, they also have rifles and shotguns close by. They also go in harms way everyday.

I carry a reliable revolver for that once in a lifetime encounter where three rounds usually settles the argument. Carry what you want, my friend, but don't tell me I don't have a fighting chance with a revolver. I cannot, I will not carry a firearm that is not absolutely reliable. I have never had a revolver fail on me, not once. I have had every semi-auto fail, at one time or another, that I have ever owned. That is 'case-closed' for me.

Defensory
August 1, 2008, 03:53 AM
No, not all police officers have backup. In THOUSANDS of shooting situations, they are by themselves. And the weapon used by the OVERWHELMING majority of police officers is their SIDEARM---which just happens to be a semi-automatic pistol in virtually every significant police department and law enforcement agency in the country.

Funny, but the police haven't found semi-autos to be unreliable at all. The overwhelming majority of street officers with NYPD, LAPD and other major police departments around the country---have a STRONG PREFERENCE for the semi-auto.

It was the officers in the street who fought "city hall" for years, over the right to carry semi-autos. They were just plain outgunned while carrying revolvers, and officers were dying in shootouts with criminals packing semi-autos.

pinkymingeo
August 1, 2008, 06:29 AM
Police departments (notice I didn't say rocket science labs) are interested in combat weapons. I'm interested in personal defense. There are significant differences in our needs. Combat guys care about "firepower", sending as much lead downrange as possible, in the least amount of time. Collateral damage is part of the nature of combat, so acceptable. Weapons malfunctions will occur in a percentage of encounters, but can be tolerated because most engagements aren't fought solo. We will, almost inevitably, have casualties. In personal defense firepower is second to accuracy, collateral damage is unacceptable, malfunctions are often fatal, and you sure don't want to be a casualty. They have their needs, I have mine.

pps
August 1, 2008, 11:55 AM
I remember reading in the news about an LEO who was involved in a shootout with a perpetrator in the basement of a house. The LEO had a revolver and the perp had a high capacity semi-auto.

When the LEO had to stop and reload, the perp promptly closed distance and shot the LEO several times at near-point blank range, killing him immediately.

This officer could have been equally dead with a malfunctioning semi-auto. There an infinite number of variables that can come into play in a gunfight. To bad he didn't have or use a backup.

If I were a cop, I'd undoubtedly go with a semi-auto. If no departmental restrictions were precluding me, make mine a 10mm with hot rodded DT ammo please. But you can be assured that I'd have something like a 340pd as a BUG somewhere on my person...hell, I'd probably have an LCP or Kahr tucked inside my vest as well.

The reality of MY situation is that I am NOT law enforcement or military. My use is for self defense and handgun hunting. The only semi-auto caliber I'd feel comfortable hunting with would be a 10mm. For handgun hunting I use .357 for game up to and including deer and boar.

For me, and MY general use of a firearms, I like revolvers simply BECAUSE. An affinity for using revolvers does NOT constitute a knock on semi-autos or those who use them.

Scoutsout2645
August 1, 2008, 12:26 PM
I'm LEO, prior Army. Learned to shoot handgun on a 1911 then the Beretta 9mm, I started my Dept. with a S&W .40 and we now carry Glocks in .40. I have put lots of rounds through lots of tubes with lots of guys and 99% of the malfs I've seen are either operator or maintenance issues. Example: I had one LT who I was trying to get through qualifications who was convinced his Beretta was "broken" because it stovepiped every other round. After watching him shoot, then putting 50 rounds through the same gun myself with no problem, we ace bandaged the hell out of his wrists so he would stop limp-wristing it and the action could work properly!

Moral of the story, know YOUR abilities and training before using/choosing a weapon. Personally, I am very comfortable with carrying semi-auto and I prefer the hi-cap and faster reload times it offers. My wife, on the other hand, has a .38/.357 revolver for HD and target shooting for the same reason the LT above should have one. I have 20 yrs of training with random forced malfs using dummy rounds - clearing a failure becomes fast and 2nd nature. She doesn't. I have to be prepared for a protracted firefight against multiple BGs while on the move. She doesn't. For HER, the revolver is the best option for a HD gun.

Then again, HER backup gun is a 12ga pump...

loneviking
August 1, 2008, 02:23 PM
Moral of the story, know YOUR abilities and training before using/choosing a weapon.

And that really says it all! Don't buy a gun on how it looks, or the fancy gadgets that it may include (decocker levers, rails, etc.), buy it because you can use it reliably and accurately. How does that old movie saying go?

A man has got to know his limitations.....:)

DougDubya
August 1, 2008, 02:33 PM
And with lies and misrepresentations, people wonder why some THR threads are avoided. Why does Defensory even post in the revolver section?

mbt2001
August 1, 2008, 02:50 PM
They were just plain outgunned while carrying revolvers, and officers were dying in shootouts with criminals packing semi-autos.

That is a myth. The whole idea of the police being "outgunned" was a sales campaign to increase their funding. Today, they are a paramilitary organization. With automatic weapons and all kinds of armored carriers. Most of the gun fights are still fought with handguns... So nothing what changed???

If you have the newest coolest, biggest, best toy you when all the gun fights. AS if life were so easy...

doc2rn
August 1, 2008, 04:01 PM
I own several pistols, but only one revolver. My S&W 10-4 just keeps coming back. Even though I may shoot the FNP-9 better, the Smith is just as dependable.

I dont think one is better than the other. They both serve different functions which make them valued members of my tool chest.

DougDubya
August 1, 2008, 05:42 PM
That is a myth. The whole idea of the police being "outgunned" was a sales campaign to increase their funding. Today, they are a paramilitary organization. With automatic weapons and all kinds of armored carriers. Most of the gun fights are still fought with handguns... So nothing what changed???

If you have the newest coolest, biggest, best toy you when all the gun fights. AS if life were so easy...

Colonel Cooper had a saying for this:

"A hardware solution to a software problem."

Defensory
August 2, 2008, 06:39 AM
Posted by Doug:
Colonel Cooper had a saying for this:

"A hardware solution to a software problem."

And anybody who knows anything about Colonel Jeff Cooper, knows that the Colonel was a lifelong staunch advocate of semi-automatic pistols, especially the 1911A1, and the .45 ACP cartridge. Colonel Cooper soundly rejected revolvers for handgun self-defense, as well as law enforcement and military use. :neener:

JesseL
August 2, 2008, 12:11 PM
And anybody who knows anything about Colonel Jeff Cooper, knows that the Colonel was a lifelong staunch advocate of semi-automatic pistols, especially the 1911A1, and the .45 ACP cartridge. Colonel Cooper soundly rejected revolvers for handgun self-defense, as well as law enforcement and military use.

Toward the beginning of the handgun revolution, in which we bore a hand, we professed that the optimum personal defensive sidearm was a major caliber self−loading pistol. The second choice was a major caliber revolver; the third a minor caliber self−loader, and in last place the minor caliber revolver.

That doesn't really come across as "soundly rejected" to me.:scrutiny:

Stainz
August 2, 2008, 12:37 PM
Wow. The late Col. must have been a bit older than I thought, if he 'bore a hand in the handgun revolution'. If memory serves me, from reading, definitely not from 'being there', the 1896 'Broomhandle' Mauser was one of the first military/LE-use bottom-feeders - and then the 1911, of course. Of course, the military had left the by then down-sized .45 Colt (40 to ~32 gr fff) for the .38 Colt DA, a step down in power, to be sure, as evidenced in the Phillipines. Wasn't that the 'revolution'? The Brits held on through the first WW, preferring our 1917 S&Ws (and Colts) as a means of launching the .45 ACP, a decidedly better round than their .455 Webley. The revolution continues.

I'll opt for second choice - a revolver with a medium power (plus) round. Hey, but what did you expect, this is a revolver forum, duh!

Interesting... the Broomhandle, the S&W .38 Special M&P, and, for giggles, the infamous 1895 Nagant all came into being from 1895-1898 - and the two revolvers were still being 'issued' to LE & some military fifty-odd years ago - the .38s hung on longer - until today, even. That Mauser design held on through the thirties - if you count lesser copies. Find one in use now. I had to get my Nagants in the frey.

Stainz

jad0110
August 2, 2008, 03:51 PM
Cold, hard video evidence of revolver malfunctions:

Ruger SP101 Malfunction:

"This is a brand new Ruger SP101 357 Magnum. I took it out to the range twice and it malfunctioned like this about every 50 rounds. Pull the trigger and it hangs up. If I needed this to defend myself, I'd be dead. I returned the revolver to Cabela's for a refund. Too bad, because it did shoot nicely but what good is a wheelgun that you can't depend on?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsgd5fZJCjU


Revolver Malfunction at a Cowboy Shoot:

"Another stage with a slight revolver malfunction"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Xl92P_mVDM

Okay. Doesn't change my small arsenal choices at all. Yes, revolver do break. So do semi autos. Overall, my revolvers have been a bit more reliable, on the whole.

I'm not sure what the two videos are supposed to prove. That revolvers can break? Most of us understand that (and some have experienced breakages), though I acknowledge that some people erroneously believe revolvers can't fail. Or are you inferring that all revolvers are unreliable? About 8 years ago, I knew two different guys while in college, one (a poor broke college student) drove a Chevy Citation (don't remember the model year) and the other a late 90s Toyota Camry. The Citation had been virtually trouble free (he bought it with 100k miles a few years earlier) with about 200k on the odo at the time. The other guy (returning to school to "retool") purchased the Camry new; it blew it's engine a year or so after he bought it with 25k on the odo.

Is this one example enough to call all Citations dependable and all Camry's junk? I sure hope not.

TallPine
August 2, 2008, 05:59 PM
I just wonder how many folks think they need to shoot 4 boxes of ammo through their 6-gun before considering it reliable with that particular ammo only ????

JCMAG
August 2, 2008, 06:06 PM
There are a lot of reasons to shoot one type of gun over another.

But revolvers have sex appeal. :)

papajohn
August 2, 2008, 07:43 PM
Why a revolver? Simplicity. Reduced likelihood of malfunction. No clearance drills.....you just pull the trigger again. Easy to learn, easy to teach.

Are there down sides? Of Course. There are downsides to EVERYTHING. But I'll not be selling my revolvers anytime soon.

PJ

Hawk
August 2, 2008, 09:12 PM
I just wonder how many folks think they need to shoot 4 boxes of ammo through their 6-gun before considering it reliable with that particular ammo only ????

From the department of oddball exceptions comes the tale of a lot of .44 Mag that refused to extract without resorting to wooden dowels and hammers. It was definitely the ammo - the Anaconda in question had no issues with other ammo.

Admittedly rare but anything that happens to me once may well happen again so I tend to try out a new brand in revolvers as well. FWIW, it was funky brass, per PMC, not overpressure and PMC showed more than the usual interest when it happened - paid frieght to get the remaining ammo back and replaced it with good stuff. It was the regular line - not the Starfire.

To further strain the odds, I've never had my semi seize up while putting my mind at ease with carry ammo.

What're the odds of that? I should've bought a powerball ticket when that happened.

At least the first six went through without a hitch. It was only the reload that could be timed with a sundial.

DougDubya
August 3, 2008, 07:51 PM
Oh... quick note to Defensory.

The video that you allege is about a DA revolver failing at a Cowboy shoot is a single action revolver.

No one is allowed to compete in those matches with a self-cocker.

And yes, people can thumbbust a Peacemaker that quickly, especially with two hands on the gun.

Stainz
August 3, 2008, 09:22 PM
I have had revolver problems. Ruger SRH and early .454 ammo - even Hornady - was in soft brass - it would take on the RMS roughness of the chambers - required knocking them out singly. My .45 Colt Ruger Redhawk's extractor would jump the small .45 Colt rims, making reloading a two-handed/time-consuming affair. My Ruger .32 H&RM SP101 required a lot of effort to empty the spent cases - the chamber ID was at the max extreme - and even mild loads would expand the brass, causing drag.

Of course, a .454 Casull is a true elephant gun - and I never was accosted by one... it did work, even if it is a poor choice for personal or home defense. Same with the hefty .45 Colts & the RH. Actually, the .32 SP101 isn't the best choice for a home defender either - unless you are under attack by Zombie ferrets. I did find the best solution to my revolver faults - I got rid of the Rugers - and became S&W territory. I have two 625MGs in .45 Colt that have never had the ejector jump rims. My solution to my revolver problems worked for me.

Stainz

V1K1NG0
August 3, 2008, 10:28 PM
I agree with most of you all. I have hashed this debate out before and for me the answer is simple: carry what you would stake your life and those around you on because if your wrong then you or them could be dead. If it's a revolver great. If it's a auto great. Learn all you can about it but most of all learn what you can do with it because in the end that is all that matters. Nobody can answer for you.

My primary carry piece is a SP-101 w/3 inch barrel (carried in coat pocket). I do my best to stay out of harm's way and carry this as my last resort. Never had to use it for social work and pray I never do.

Yet, to ease my mind from thinking that one day I'll use it and run out of lead when the chips are down I have my Glock 19 w/2 spare mags as my backup gun (carried on belt under coat). Friends always ask me why I dont carry the 19 in the pocket and the 101 on the belt. I always tell them , If your life depended on it, you would want me to shoot the 101 first. Not because it is nostalgic, or because some say the cartridge in it is so powerful or even that it looks nice but because I am that good with it.

When the time comes we arent playing for fun, we play for keeps.

So if another person feels the same way about their 1911 or XD etc etc. I wont hold it against them because in the end they are the only one that will have to answer for their choice and the results of it.

Practice, practice, practice. Then practice some more.

Evyl Robot
August 4, 2008, 12:16 AM
Hmmm...

I hate to say it but I'm actually more accurate a shot with a high-quality bottom-feeder than I am a revolver. In fact, out of seven guns I shot at my last range session, my carry gun was my worst. But, darn it - the revolver is just so hot! My solution? I'm going to focus the next several range sessions to the one gun to see how that makes me improve.

--Michael

johnnylaw53
August 8, 2008, 07:39 AM
Been carrying for 30 something years began as an M.P. for 4 years and been a deputy for 28 never really had any problems with the old 45 early in my deputy job we carried revolvers only. then went to issued weapons and began with the beretta now carry a sig. For open carry a good semi auto is hard to beat same is true for a night stand gun. What I have found when it come to smaller concealed type weapons the small auto just seem to have a few more problem then a small frame revolver. Have tried quite a few small autos and seem to always go back to the snub took it lot of time and money for me to firger this outbut i'm back to the 642 now which is where i will stay

be safe

Phil DeGraves
August 8, 2008, 10:27 AM
I own, carry and love both. Can't we all get along?

Fishman777
August 8, 2008, 03:00 PM
The guy the posted this thread mentioned in his story that the gun "jammed" on the first shot. It probably didn't "jam", he probably had a FTF. If this is the case, the ammo was more to blame than the gun or the operator, but the fact remains, that with a revolver, the cop wouldn't have had to do much to "chamber" a new round. He could have pulled the trigger and shot the bad guy. Don't disregard this story because the wrong technical term was used. The bottom line was the gun did not fire and he was shot while chambering a new round into the autoloader.

No gun is going to work 100% of the time, revolvers included. In terms of reliability, I'd personally prefer to depend on a good quality, well maintained revolver than any autoloader on this planet. People talk about how reliable certain autoloaders are. I'm sure they are absolutely great guns, but if you put that gun into a novice shooters hands, my guess is that the novice could find a way to induce a malfunction. If you're not in an ideal situation, and under stress you fire off a shot without a good grip, you can limp wrist just about any autoloader into a malfunction. Glock and XDs have rock solid reputations for reliability, but they aren't that difficult to limp wrist if you try hard enough. Please don't view this as Glock or XD bashing, because I happen to like both of those brands a lot.

Defensory
August 9, 2008, 05:24 AM
"The officer turned and emptied his revolver at the suspects. His shots struck suspect "A" in the chest and stomach causing him to fall to the floor. Suspect "B" was shot in the left side and the left wrist. The officer's other two shots missed the suspects. Suspect "A" regained his feet and began firing the shotgun. His shots killed the officer, who was trying to reload, and wounded several patrons."

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1141090
....

Defensory
August 9, 2008, 06:35 AM
"Boutwell shot and killed Officer Guelff while he was reloading his six shot revolver....Officer Guelff's death prompted The City of San Francisco to purchase and arm all 2200 officers with Beretta .40 caliber [semi-automatic] pistols in order to provide us with more firepower."

--Sergeant Eugene Yoshii, San Francisco Police Department

http://www.behindthebadge.net/pmemorial/pmem_g.html
....

pps
August 9, 2008, 01:39 PM
Defensory, I'm not sure why you seem to take it as a knock on semi-auto's when some people admit to liking revolvers.

There are some advantages to revolvers:

Ease of use for complete novices.
Revolvers will generally be more tolerant of piss poor maintenance (I'm to anal about cleaning to test this).
Most revolvers are not picky about ammo (my lightweight 340 would be an exception, as I've had the cylinder tie up from bullets jumping crimp from recoil on 3 occastion...wwb and 158gr hydrashok)
Availability of excellent handgun hunting calibers from .357 (my favorite) up to 500mag

The biggest disadvantages:

Slow reloads
Less capacity
When you do have a jam...it is usually a trip to the gunsmith...and I have had this happen once with my 30k+ round count Ruger Service 6...henceforth always a backup.

The advantages for semi-auto are also obvious

High capacity
Fast reloads..if needed at all
Jerry Michlick aside, faster shooting with a semi
Less recoil vs a revolver of similar weight and muzzle energy.

Disadvantages

Higher frequency of malfunctions with semi-auto's vs revolvers
Some brands can be VERY pick about ammo
Some brands need a "break in" period (I don't count this as a dis-advantage because I can tell the wife I HAVE to go to the range to break in your pistol)


All that said, what is used in the pps household? I carry revolvers. My wife carries a Kahr PM9 which has been uber reliable even during the proverbial "break in" Her only complaint was how hard it was to pull back the slide...but after things smoothed up a bit she has had no problems....I might even get one for iwb carry just because it is nice and flat against my fat.

My father, sister, and brother in law all "carry", if you call home defense "carrying", semi-auto's (HK, glock, and XD's...all very reliable....except for the Taurus)

Again, I fail to see why fellow gun enthusiasts feel a need to knock each other for choosing a one platform over another. It seems to amount to a "Tastes Great...Less Filling" argument.

Sistema1927
August 9, 2008, 05:15 PM
Defensory, I guess that no law enforcement officers have ever been killed while trying to clear a jammed semi-auto.

DougDubya
August 9, 2008, 05:44 PM
[SARCASM ON]

Nope, Sistema. Autoloaders are magical and require no clearance drills or extra training whatsoever.

Revolvers are good only for committing suicide by assailant. Also, revolver owners are fifty times as likely to be struck by lightning, swarmed by pirhana in swimming pools, and run over by convoys of meth-addicted bikers as autloader users.

Why, just the other day, a friend of mine touched a revolver in a gun shop and he was struck and killed by a black hole which collided with the Earth.

[SARCASM OFF]

*sigh*

You're right, agreeing with trolls is so much easier.

Aka Zero
August 9, 2008, 06:32 PM
In defense of autos, da/sa.... sa trigger every shot is nice.

In defense of revolvers. A 6 shot revolver with 5 shots, hammer down on an empty has a nil chance of misfire without trigger pull. and still has a "round in the chamber"

Would carry auto though, because thin is easier to conceal. For a female wit ha purse/bag. I would suggest revolver carried one round down.

Carl Levitian
August 9, 2008, 06:33 PM
Officer Jason White of the Washington D.C. police dept. was laying wounded on the pavement while a drug dealer walked up and stood over him and shot him in the head while his partner was trying to clear the issue Glock service auto that had failed to function.

BlindJustice
August 9, 2008, 07:04 PM
Guess I'll wade into the fray

Beginnings with handguns.
Age 12-13 Hi Standard Duramatic
.22 LR 10 shot mag. Semi-Auto
The occaisional bullet would strike the
chamber opening - just stuff it in and fire.
The rest of my teen years
S&W Model 18 Combat Masterpiece.
6 shot cyl. .22 LR
Nothing ever went wrong but I did miss the
extra 4 shots and reloading was not the hassle of
holstering the Hi-Std while stuffing the mag.

USN in my twenties...
I carried the 1911 on DUty - and also had a Colt
Combat Commander. Shortly after getting out of the
Nav. I had a S&W 25 .45 ACP both.

Fast forward after 20 years of no handguns.
& started getting back into it.

S&W 625 5" Bbl. .45 ACP & a 617 6" Bbl.
with almost the same sight radius, love em both
and the .22 is great for DA warmup.

S&W 1911 5" Bbl. Stainless Steel, after 500 rds and some polishing
and other changes, changed the Main SPring Housing
and different grips has settled in, to a reliable platform.

SOmetimes I shoot the 625 better than the 1911, other
days the 1911 is on top. I like to shoot both regularly to
maintain skills. I've never left the range with the 1911 and at
least one mag. loaded - cocked and locked. THe 625 had a
case backout and the firing pin became one with
the primer. sigh.... give to gunsmith. It's also had a Master
Revolver Action Job... but, unrelated to that it keeps
doing duds with primer strikes. I had the gunsmith verify
the mainspring is at full strength, so after talking with some
S&W gurus on the S&W Forum - I'm going to get the Cylinder
& SLide longer firing pin. & any reloads get federal
primers.

Let's see... 617 - just stuff 10 into it and fire away
Model 60 3" Bbl. .357 Mag. i limit to .38 Spcl +P 100%
reliable as well. Handy natural pointing piece.

Then there's the 686P .357 Mag. I think the 7 shooter is a
great idea in principle but two empties more often than
not hang up on the cylinder release until the cyl. is
roatated. ALso after changing the grips to some Hogues
the mainspring tension went south, and it did duds single
action, til the gunny tightened it back down and it's been
fine since, however I don't enjoy shooting full house
.357 mag with Muzzle FLASH and big recoil. Maybe that's
just me, but I think it'll be shopped for a N-frame 6" Bbl. 27

and last but not least

CZ 75B - 9mm Luger I only load 15 rds in the mag, the last
round is a pita, so it is the new bedside drawer gun, with the
double action first shot. oh, and 715 rds fired so far
100% reliability

However my carry piece is the 1911.

Shoot em whatever they are, if yah got em.

Randall

BlindJustice
August 9, 2008, 07:11 PM
Guess I'll wade into the fray

Beginnings with handguns.
Age 12-13 Hi Standard Duramatic
.22 LR 10 shot mag. Semi-Auto
The occaisional bullet would strike the
chamber opening - just stuff it in and fire.
The rest of my teen years
S&W Model 18 Combat Masterpiece.
6 shot cyl. .22 LR
Nothing ever went wrong but I did miss the
extra 4 shots and reloading was not the hassle of
holstering the Hi-Std while stuffing the mag.

USN in my twenties...
I carried the 1911 on DUty - and also had a Colt
Combat Commander. Shortly after getting out of the
Nav. I had a S&W 25 .45 ACP both.

Fast forward after 20 years of no handguns.
& started getting back into it.

S&W 625 5" Bbl. .45 ACP & a 617 6" Bbl.
with almost the same sight radius, love em both
and the .22 is great for DA warmup.

S&W 1911 5" Bbl. Stainless Steel, after 500 rds and some polishing
and other changes, changed the Main SPring Housing
and different grips has settled in, to a reliable platform.

SOmetimes I shoot the 625 better than the 1911, other
days the 1911 is on top. I like to shoot both regularly to
maintain skills. I've never left the range with the 1911 and at
least one mag. loaded - cocked and locked. THe 625 had a
case backout and the firing pin became one with
the primer. sigh.... give to gunsmith. It's also had a Master
Revolver Action Job... but, unrelated to that it keeps
doing duds with primer strikes. I had the gunsmith verify
the mainspring is at full strength, so after talking with some
S&W gurus on the S&W Forum - I'm going to get the Cylinder
& SLide longer firing pin. & any reloads get federal
primers.

Let's see... 617 - just stuff 10 into it and fire away
Model 60 3" Bbl. .357 Mag. i limit to .38 Spcl +P 100%
reliable as well. Handy natural pointing piece.

Then there's the 686P .357 Mag. I think the 7 shooter is a
great idea in principle but two empties more often than
not hang up on the cylinder release until the cyl. is
roatated. ALso after changing the grips to some Hogues
the mainspring tension went south, and it did duds single
action, til the gunny tightened it back down and it's been
fine since, however I don't enjoy shooting full house
.357 mag with Muzzle FLASH and big recoil. Maybe that's
just me, but I think it'll be shopped for a N-frame 6" Bbl. 27

and last but not least

CZ 75B - 9mm Luger I only load 15 rds in the mag, the last
round is a pita, so it is the new bedside drawer gun, with the
double action first shot. oh, and 715 rds fired so far
100% reliability

However my carry piece is the 1911.

Shoot em whatever they are, if yah got em.

Randall

BlindJustice
August 9, 2008, 07:18 PM
1911 single stack mag in an IWB mag holder on the belt
easiest to conceal.

625 - The ONLY one I have found specifically built for
full moon belt carry is del Fatti and they're $60 each. Well,
the point is moot for carry as I don't have a holster for the
big n-frame yet, I also have HKS Speedloaders 25M for the
.45 Auto RIm 250 gr. SWC easier to use than the longer magnum
cartridges fwiw. but the FUll moons rock for reloading the wheelgun

686P - the HKS 587 reloader for 7 rds is a tight fit
clearance wise.

Need speedloader for the little 60 and a couple of those
10 shooters from DS-10 would be nice.

However the highest priority is to get a Milt SParks holster
and IWB single mag carrier as well in the pipeline so I can
get em for my birthday in Jan. or valentines day.

Cleaning revolvers easy

CZ 75B Easy

S&W 1911 - the FLGR has to go...

Randall

BlindJustice
August 9, 2008, 07:33 PM
I'll tell yah what Revolvers are good for

In case I have to arm a friend who is a seldom
shooter, give him/her a revolver - I'll keep the semi-autos
for me,

If I am around those who can't wrap their brains around
cocked and locked - i'll get a revolver to wear on the hip with
no safetys other than a transfer bar or the CZ 75B
hammer down - same thing..

Randall

DougDubya
August 9, 2008, 11:18 PM
[CONTINUED SARCASM]
Wait? You mean you can reload revolvers quickly with full moon clips and HKS Speedloaders or the amazingly simple, yet efficient Bianchi Speed Strip?
[SARCASM OFF]

Sorry. Can't take saying things that go contrary to my grain.

A Smith and Wesson 686 Plus or Model 620 with seven shot speed loaders from good, reputable brands is as good an option as my beloved SIG Sauer family of DA/DAK autos or the magnificent Beretta 92 family or the sublime, near perfect little Glock 19.

Plus, there's a buttload of folks who do this crazy thing like carry an auto AND a revolver.

Say, a service revolver like a Model 67 and a Walther PPK backup, or vice versa like a Colt 1911 with a Ruger SP101 for backup.

Plus, the New York Police Department only truly decided to go with autoloaders when officers were limited to only two revolvers at a time, and during the long period of revolvers only, cops got by with four or so revolvers - usually J Frames and/or Dick Specials with a service revolver.

If it were a choice of one Glock or three J-frames, I'll go with the three J-Frames.

Defensory
August 10, 2008, 02:14 AM
Memory of a Fallen Officer

For police officers on the street, the strongest argument for letting them have semiautomatic weapons is the memory of a fellow officer who died while trying to reload his gun.

Officer Scott Gadell, armed with the standard six-shot revolver, was killed during a 1986 shootout in Queens by a man carrying a 9-millimeter gun that held more than a dozen bullets.

"Every cop knows about Scott," said Officer Robert James Evers of the 71st Precinct in Crown Heights, Brooklyn. "He's an example of a cop who did everything he was supposed to but ended up dying because of second rate equipment." Leaping for Cover

On a humid June day Officer Gaddell, 22 years old, and his partner chased a gunman in Far Rockaway, Queens. As Officer Gadell reached an alley behind a rooming house, the gunman, crouching in a recessed basement entry, opened fire. Officer Gadell, leaping for the cover of a stoop, returned it.

The gunman fired a total of nine shots from his 9-millimeter semi-automatic gun.

Officer Gadell fired all six bullets in his .38-caliber revolver and was reloading -- and momentarily vulnerable -- when he was struck by gunfire. The officer, who was wearing a bulletproof vest, was shot on the left side of the forehead, just above the ear.

The assailant, 35-year-old Robert Roulston, who was described as a low-level drug dealer, was eventually captured, found guilty of second-degree murder and sentenced to 25 years to life in prison.

"If he had the 9-millimeter he wouldn't have had to reload," Officer Evers said. "And maybe he'd still be alive."

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E0CE4D7103BF932A05756C0A964958260&sec=&spon=
....

Defensory
August 10, 2008, 02:54 AM
"Wounded in a gun battle with a robber, a Texas policeman lay in the street attempting to reload his revolver. As the robber prepared to fire at him again, L.B. Jackson, Oak Cliff, Tex., covered the robber with a shotgun and forced him to surrender."

(The Dallas Morning News, Dallas, TX)

http://www.nraila.org/issues/articles/read.aspx?ID=30
....

loneviking
August 10, 2008, 03:13 AM
And that last quote was from an incident in 1972!! Cops weren't carrying semi-autos nor were the bad guys at that time.

Look, if you want to carry a bottom feeder, be my guest. I've seen T.V. incidents where cops with autos wind up in trouble; I've seen incidents where cops dump 15 rounds and hit nothing. I've also seen several times where they needed to shoot into a vehicle from which they had been fired on and the 9mm's didn't kill or stop the suspect. I saw one suspect shot at near point blank range in the stomach with a .45 that continued to struggle with the officer until a bystander helped to restrain the suspect.

I'll stick with a .357 revolver. I've personally seen the results of enough shootings in E.R.'s to know that I want a large caliber gun. With the exception of the .45 auto, large caliber guns are usually revolvers.

Defensory
August 10, 2008, 04:09 AM
"Sergeant O'Grady and Officer Brown of the Nyack Village Police Department were shot and killed on October 20, 1981 during the infamous Brink's Armored Car robbery at the Nanuet Mall in Nanuet, NY where a Brinks armored car guard, Peter Paige, was murdered and his two partners wounded....A gunfight erupted and Sergeant O'Grady was executed while trying to reload his 6 shot revolver behind a police vehicle, subsequently dying of his wounds."

http://www.orangetown.com/departments/police/InMemoriam
....

Candiru
August 10, 2008, 04:58 AM
I wrote a little article about the advantages and disadvantages of revolvers. As the title suggests, I saw a lot more advantages than not:

In Praise of Revolvers (http://how-i-did-it.org/revolvers/)

DougDubya
August 10, 2008, 02:16 PM
Yes, because in 1981, the police hadn't been militarized because of Presidential attempts to end-run posse comitatus.

Plus, Nyack Village is 25 miles away from New York City, is a small community and a place where law officers in 1981 didn't feel the need for more than belt loops for their revolvers. Meanwhile, state highway patrols and large urban police departments like Chicago, New York and Detroit either authorized second guns (obviating the need to reload one pill in the wheel at the time) or made use of this amazing new technology called THE SPEEDLOADER!

http://www.pistoleer.com/hks/

Which have been around for a long time, and have become common for lawmen armed with revolvers.

Indeed, even as far back as 1973, speedloaders were present on the silver screen in Magnum Force, when Hal Holbrook told Eastwood to get rid of his reloads for his revolver.

So no, Defensory. Your argument is fail.

DougDubya
August 10, 2008, 02:20 PM
Might I also add, the NY Times is hardly a bastion of firearms knowledge. (Plus, we're still looking at ancient 1986 information there, from an article posted in 1993, in the same publication which decries the use of hollowpoints for law enforcement because of their deadly, explosive killing power.)

Tell me how after six misses, if he had an autoloader, his next nine shots would have somehow magically hit?

BlindJustice
August 10, 2008, 05:55 PM
[CONTINUED SARCASM]
Wait? You mean you can reload revolvers quickly with full moon clips and HKS Speedloaders or the amazingly simple, yet efficient Bianchi Speed Strip?
[SARCASM OFF]

I take all your comments with Sarcasm ON Doug

I'm just saying the 625 works for ME and the 686P with does not work for ME I'm sure others have no problem with it.

Randall

DougDubya
August 10, 2008, 05:58 PM
Randall, a 625 loads obscenely fast, practically as quick as a 1911 with a mag funnel.

An HKS speedloader is like a second and a half slower, which, using proper cover and tactics, is plenty of time (if you don't have a J-frame in a pocket for a faster reload).

Hawk
August 10, 2008, 06:25 PM
Might I also add, the NY Times is hardly a bastion of firearms knowledge. (Plus, we're still looking at ancient 1986 information there, from an article posted in 1993, in the same publication which decries the use of hollowpoints for law enforcement because of their deadly, explosive killing power.)

I tend to agree with the appraisal of the NYT but a characterization of a 1986 anecdote as "ancient" seems odd in a thread that was kicked off based on an anecdote told in 1977 that may have actually occurred even earlier.


... I sold it off in 1977.

The year 1977 was a pivotal year for my gun preffernces. ...


It is my personal opinion that folks generally rain on "revolver love" parades when they appreciate both types of handguns and perceive egregious "knocks" on semis. This thread seemed remarkably free from that sort of thing so I'm not at all sure why it turned a bit adversarial.

I'm not sure if citing the deaths of public servants has a great deal of bearing on equipment but it does have the potential to become tiresome. Timing would also seem to make the results predictable. In 1900 the number of deaths from horse-drawn vehicles exceeded internal combustion vehicles. 100 years later the situation is reversed. Water doesn't flow uphill and deaths of public servants carrying semiautos in 2008 will exceed those carrying revolvers because so very few are carrying revolvers. If there's anything meaningful to be gained from such anecdotes, and I'm not sure there is, they would have to come from an era when wheel vs reciprocating sidearms were in transition or at least both in common use. Hence some, from necessity, will be "ancient".

But, with the possible exception of snub-nosed compacts, revolvers would not appear to be in ascendence. They have good solid uses and many will prefer them for any number of reasons for any number of uses. But choosing a revolver as a primary (not pocket) carry piece will put one in a minority - a variable one based on age if indications here (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=382937) may be considered accurate. Not a big deal - I spend most of my time at THR in the revolver forum, enjoy the things and rather like the idea that there's a little James Dean in my choices.

But there is a human nature element that puzzles me and I'm not even qualified to guess at the cause as I have no "pop" psychology aspirations: Why are there no "why semiauto" threads or off-site links to "in praise of semiautos" essays? Maybe we still enjoy surrounding ourselves with folks that share our little rebellions, digitally? Or maybe there are such threads and links in the semiauto section but I miss them as I spend more time here?

Beats me, but I do predict that if revolvers ever started overtaking semiautos at some point in the future the first indication will be the absence of threads such as these. They convince no one and may or may not provide a small level of confirmation bias comfort to a few of the participants (oops, pop psy by the admittedly unqualified) but we're all allowed to guess, I suppose.

DougDubya
August 10, 2008, 06:37 PM
Which is why I think we see the rebellion of some semis only folks in these revolver threads - that sense of need for rebellion.

It's the same kind of thing that get other boards flocking to Cuddly Miss Chloe, the beauty pagent contestant from Britain who is 173 pounds of curves and womanly shape.

Such rebellions ignore some of the pro-revolver fans' open professions of love for 1911's, Beretta 92's and even the little Glock 19, and some posters IGNORE departments like the Chicago Police which mandate the carry of a backup weapon, regardless of auto or revolver in addition to the service sidearm.

Had the civil servants who were concentrating on loading one pill at a time done things like have a speed loader or speed strip, or kept a J-frame in an ankle or pocket holster, those "sneak up and kill the civil servant" episodes would have never happened.

Even high capacity fans like John Farnham and Massad Ayoob don't carry just one gun. Evan Marshall, long proclaimed to be Mister One-Shot Stop carries three guns for a minimum of 20 rounds off the bat (his most recent load was a 17-shot .40 caliber Beretta, a Glock 26 and a five-shot revolver).

Service pistols get shot thanks to tunnel vision, or choke on a bad round in a good lot of ammunition.

Age also isn't a very good indicator. I was on one board where a young, college age lad hated the current plastic, blocky guns in preference of the Browning Hi-Power and the M-1 Garand. (What can I say, I'm a BAR man myself, and dig that we have the upside down BAR as our current M-240 GPMG.)

Hawk
August 10, 2008, 07:11 PM
Cuddly Miss Chloe? Interesting phenomenon you've noted there. She reminds me more of an "N" frame, though. Some seem to be speculating that her success is, in part, attributable to "aneroxia backlash". If so, she would better reflect a backlash against skinny handguns. All in good fun but OT and I'll confess that the one "hit" I got from the search engine was in good taste - didn't feel like pushing my luck.

I was actually backward with the age thing - I was mostly all revolvers in the late 70s and mainly semiautos recently - they're represented about equally now.

pinkymingeo
August 10, 2008, 10:04 PM
The bottom line is that, for personal defense, a baseball bat is vastly superior to a handgun most of the time. Accurate, dependable, easy to use and hard to miss with. Devastating when properly applied. If you're like me you use a handgun for target shooting and hunting. Maybe some competitions, too. I carry a handgun for personal defense, but don't really expect to use it. Should I have to defend myself, it's not likely to make a difference which type of handgun I use. Strictly a matter of personal choice, based on a lot of personal factors. Until somebody works out an IWB for a Louisville Slugger, at least.

scrat
August 10, 2008, 10:43 PM
love revolvers always have always will. recently i have been shooting a lot of black powder and single action revolvers. and yep those things can and do fail. first of all they are copies or replicas of very old designs. so they are inherint of the original design flaws. When shooting cap and ball you cant get more than 30 rounds before you have to do some cleaning. On my walker 55 grains is awesome. However two cylinder fulls and your going to have to remove the cylinder to clean the arbor shaft.

Drgong
August 10, 2008, 11:38 PM
Both have advantages, both have weaknesses.

Shoot the one that you can hit better with.

GP100
August 11, 2008, 12:11 AM
First and formost, you cannot limp wrist a revolver. That happens to the best of us shooting autos, if you shoot long enough, it will occur. Revolvers are more reliable, at least on the lower side of number of rounds fired. Sooner or later, they will go out of time or develope end shake or something, but it's a long time down the road. Most people will never shoot one long enough to have that happen. Autos, on the other hand, can have shooter issues (limp wristing), ammo issues, magazine issues, extractor or ejector issues. They do tend to go longer before major parts issues, but again, most people will never get there anyway. Just like you gun will survive torture tests like mud, dropping from helicopters and being run over by tanks. I've been shooting over 50 years and have never even dropped a gun, let long run over it or "drowned" it. So, for most reasons, I vote for the revolver. A Ruger GP100 at that....

Hawk
August 11, 2008, 12:27 AM
That happens to the best of us shooting autos, if you shoot long enough, it will occur.

Not necessarily. There are plenty of semiautos that can't be limp-wristed in the classic sense and several that can. If it weighs heavily on one's mind, choose one that can't be limpwristed even held as loosely as possible without dropping it.

A member here went to some trouble to get some empirical evidence.
Enjoy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsktLC-hzx4

My STI has also defied my best efforst to induce a grip related malf. If it hadn't, it would be gone.

Stainz
August 11, 2008, 08:11 AM
I don't understand. This is a revolver forum. If you must eschew the virtues, perceptual or otherwise, of the revolver here, where would such praise be acceptable? Some of us - okay, at least me - are not LEOs. Our protection needs are simpler. If 5-8 rounds won't halt a threat within your home - or around your person - you likely should have moved a long time ago, travel in nicer areas, or carried something crew-served.

As to reloads, I know I can 'lay down fire' with greater numbers of .45 ACP ball ammo from my 625 than any of my friends with their 1911s or variants. Even my G21, now gone for a decade, with it's +2 extenders and 15rd mags, was limited - I couldn't afford any more than it's original two hi-cap mags. I've shot over 420 rounds from that 625 before cleaning it - and had to clean it then due to my visual disgust, not it's dysfunction. Without a doubt, my .223 ammo box with 105 loaded moonclips of ball ammo and my 625 is a good choice for Zombie protection. Most bottom-feeder owners I know have four or five mags at most.

Others have praised moonclips and speedloaders. Their use here is a mixed bag. The moonclipped .45 ACP ball ammo, particularly in a revolver with an eased ejector star, seem to leap into the chambers, making for fast reloads. Load that bullet into .45 Auto Rim cases - and them into an HKS #25 speedloader - and you have to visually align the short rounds over their respective chambers before 'Bombs away!'. Get to the .38 or .44 Special in length, and speedloaders are much faster. Of course, moonclips aren't fast in some instances - my use of such in my 627s being a case in point, as aligning those spindly spider legs for insertion quickly is just not likely. That may be me.

So... I am happy with revolvers. I won't go to an evil-bottom-feeder/rude-case-toser forum heaping praise on revolvers, however.

Stainz

Hawk
August 11, 2008, 08:35 AM
I enjoy both but most of my shooting time is with revolvers and most online time in the revolver forum - both by choice.

There's a subtle difference between raining on a love parade and pointing out perceived inaccuracies, even admitting that such inaccuracies may be such only in my opinion.

Noobs hang around here and if a charge is made against semiautos that doesn't hold water or a hosanna is sung about a wheelgun that omits some facts, then counterpoint should be offered.

Revolvers are more reliable if kept clean with screwed in extractor rods. They're not 100% more reliable 100% of the time. Their operation is simpler but their parts count might well be higher. Not all revolvers are alike and not all semis are alike. Noting such things shouldn't be overly disruptive to a revolver love fest thread. A noob should not be led to believe that something simply can't screw up - convincing anyone of such would be irresponsible and possibly dangerous.

Almost everything involves a trade off of some sort. There are a few incontrovertible advantages that revolvers have. One is that the brass is easier to keep. Another was pointed out a few posts back: they work better with black powder.

crebralfix
August 11, 2008, 09:13 AM
As to reloads, I know I can 'lay down fire' with greater numbers of .45 ACP ball ammo from my 625 than any of my friends with their 1911s or variants. Even my G21, now gone for a decade, with it's +2 extenders and 15rd mags, was limited - I couldn't afford any more than it's original two hi-cap mags. I've shot over 420 rounds from that 625 before cleaning it - and had to clean it then due to my visual disgust, not it's dysfunction. Without a doubt, my .223 ammo box with 105 loaded moonclips of ball ammo and my 625 is a good choice for Zombie protection. Most bottom-feeder owners I know have four or five mags at most.

I have also noticed that many folks have only a few magazines for their gun.

I went to a "Point Shooting Progressions" with Roger Phillips recently. I took 21 magazines. Another guy had 35. Then there was the poor guy with two magazines for his Glock 30 and three for his HK.

This was a 1,500-2,000 round two day course.

I'm sure his thumbs are still bruised.

Defensory
August 12, 2008, 06:23 AM
Posted by Hawk:
Not necessarily. There are plenty of semiautos that can't be limp-wristed in the classic sense and several that can. If it weighs heavily on one's mind, choose one that can't be limpwristed even held as loosely as possible without dropping it.

A member here went to some trouble to get some empirical evidence.
Enjoy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsktLC-hzx4

My STI has also defied my best efforst to induce a grip related malf. If it hadn't, it would be gone.

BINGO!

I've seen that Youtube video before. It destroys the myth that "All semi-autos are highly prone to limpwristing", so often repeated by advocates of the widowmaker (i.e. revolver).

Please note that ALL of the semi-autos fired every single shot, except for the Glock and the Beretta 92. The 92 failed only once, and that was on the last round, which the guy in the video correctly pointed out "could've been a magazine problem."

ONLY the Glock was bad about limpwristing, and I don't own any Glocks, so I'm not concerned. Many tens of thousands of LEO's worldwide carry Glocks, and I have yet to see even ONE documented case of an LEO getting shot because his Glock limpwristed. For that matter, I've never seen a documented case of a civilian getting shot because their Glock limpwristed on them.

The 1911 style weapons and the Springfield XD fired each and every time, even though the guy was holding them as loosely as possible.

I tried the same test at my range with two Kimber 1911's and two Springfield XD's, and all four of them fired multiple magazines without ANY malfunctions whatsoever, even though I was holding them just as loose as the guy in the Youtube video.

Defensory
August 12, 2008, 06:41 AM
FACT: Two of the FBI agents shot in the FBI Miami shootout of 1986, were shot while trying to reload their widowmakers.

Special Agent Gordon McNeil was shot in the neck (and paralyzed) while trying to reload his widowmaker.

Special Agent John Hanlon was shot in the groin while attempting to reload his widowmaker.

Of the four agents who were carrying widowmakers in the firefight, only one of them was able to reload, even though the event lasted over four minutes.

The Miami shootout resulted in the FBI retiring their widowmakers shortly thereafter, and adopting semi-autos as their primary issue sidearms. In the ensuing decade, tens of thousands of LE agencies around the country followed the FBI's lead, and adopted semi-autos.

pinkymingeo
August 12, 2008, 07:20 AM
If I remember properly, that fight was ended by a wounded agent and his J-frame ankle gun. The suspects were wounded multiple times, but one kept on going. Regardless of what you shoot, handguns stink for personal defense, and are even worse for combat. They beat throwing (small) rocks, but that's about it. Use what you like, but hope you never have to use it at all.

Drgong
August 12, 2008, 10:15 AM
First of all, I am not a LEO. I am a Citizen who needs protection.

I own both Semi-autos (BHP) and revolvers. the BHP is a fun gun, and others who shoot it just grin, and I will have a lot of fun with it.

However even with a old russian revolver that is 75 years old I can out shoot myself shooting the BHP. Others may very well shoot better with the BHP, but I personally shoot better with a revolver.

Knowing me, I may very well OC the BHP and have a widowmaker in the pocket.

Defensory
August 13, 2008, 03:36 PM
Posted by DrGong:
First of all, I am not a LEO. I am a Citizen who needs protection.

Whether you're a soldier, an LEO, or just an average joe civilian---a 15-round high capacity magazine provides a lot more protection than a 6-round widowmaker.

However even with a old russian revolver that is 75 years old I can out shoot myself shooting the BHP. Others may very well shoot better with the BHP, but I personally shoot better with a revolver.

Aren't you the guy who said he's been shooting a revolver all his life, and just got the BHP a few weeks ago? Gee, "who'da thunk" you'd shoot the revolver better?! ;)

Knowing me, I may very well OC the BHP and have a widowmaker in the pocket.

If you must carry a widowmaker, that would be the smartest thing for you to do. Always the hi-cap semi-auto as your primary, and widowmaker as your backup.

Defensory
August 13, 2008, 04:17 PM
Posted by pinkymingeo:
If I remember properly, that fight was ended by a wounded agent and his J-frame ankle gun. The suspects were wounded multiple times, but one kept on going. Regardless of what you shoot, handguns stink for personal defense, and are even worse for combat. They beat throwing (small) rocks, but that's about it. Use what you like, but hope you never have to use it at all.

Your memory is a bit faulty. The perps had already been neutralized, allowing Special Agent Edmundo Mireles to approach the vehicle they were in, and shoot them with his full sized six-shot FBI standard issue revolver at near-point blank range.

Both FBI and independent forensic examinations have concluded that perpetrator Matix was either unconscious or dead, and perpetrator Platt was completely incapacitated and near death---BEFORE Mireles was able to walk right up to the vehicle, stick his gun in the open window and shoot them both at extremely close range.

The shootout was already effectively over when Mireles shot them with his widowmaker. His widowmaker didn't stop the fight---the perps were already completely unable to return fire, due to being mortally wounded by shots fired earlier in the firefight.

Drgong
August 13, 2008, 04:21 PM
Aren't you the guy who said he's been shooting a revolver all his life, and just got the BHP a few weeks ago? Gee, "who'da thunk" you'd shoot the revolver better?!

Nope, first time shooting a revovler. I did get a BHP a few weeks ago, before that I had shot a friends Glock (don't remember the type, it was a 9mm) I shot rifles a lot, new to handguns.

The BHP is a great pistol, I like it a lot, but it is not very CCW. (and I did not buy it for CCW) I am not going to be raiding a crack house any time soon, and how many SD situations are going to require more then six shots, that your not better off just getting the heck out of dodge?

This is me shooting my BHP at 21 feet.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y269/drgong/011.jpg

Not bad for someone who not experienced shooting handguns who learning the proper shooting technique.

With a revolver I can shoot them all inside the 8 circle (three out).

I am unsure if you ever been in an Self Defense situation, but I can confirm what most have said, that due to the situation your in, it is near impossible to think things though, and even though a well maintained autoloader is reliable, it WILL jam/stovepipe/ or malfunction in some way at some time, (hopefully not in a SD situation). In this case you have to...

have two hands free (which may not be the case)

carry out anti-jamming handling which is not the same as firing, and in the heat of the moment, you can only expect to do something that you practice on a regular basis, and while I am sure there are THR members who regularly practice clearing their semi-auto, most don't.

The majority of revolver clearing just requires you to pull the trigger. If you have a more serious failure of a revolver, you are FUBAR, but the chance of say, my (future) ruger Sp101 having that type of failure is the same as my browning Hi Power falling apart in my hands. In both cases, you’re FUBAR.

If I am in a alley and seven toughs come after me to do me harm, I am just going to shoot the leader and Run like #$#$#. And that is with a BHP or a Revolver, as I am not rambo.

Both revolvers and semi-autos have there uses, there is not a one size fit all gun. Do I trust the BHP to defend me if needed, yes, it is a good gun, but I cannot carry it in the summer concealed. I much rather have 6 rounds of .327 mag (or five of .357) then 8 of say, .380.

for 8 out of 10 people who could use a SD gun, a revolver is a btter gun as it requires less maintance, and a simple method of use in the heat of the moment. Not saying that a semi-auto is useless, buta revolver is far from useless and makes sense for a ton of people to have.

Hawk
August 13, 2008, 04:35 PM
If I routinely shot a Nagant better than a BHP I would personally be inclined to accept the observation as a major clue-bat that I should favor revolvers. And by no small margin.

There might be wriggle room if it was a Grant Cunningham Python vs. a BHP but it's a fercryinoutloud Nagant vs a BHP.

Surely, that must be nature's way of trying to tell one something. I, for one, couldn't bring myself to argue the outcome. I'd probably be shopping an 8 round .357 as we speak.

Defensory
August 13, 2008, 04:45 PM
There are THOUSANDS of self-defense situations every year that require more than six shots.

Just to name one off the top of my head, there's the 70-year old military retiree from Louisville who had to fire 11 rounds from his semi-auto .40 cal, in order to take out two armed robbers in an apartment he was the landlord of.

He was inside the apartment with two armed perps at "bad breath" distance, and a long way from the door. Not much chance of a 70-year old making it all the way to the door without taking a few rounds in the back. No way could he outrun a couple guys about 50 years younger than himself.

It was obvious they were going to kill him. Since flight wasn't possible, he had to fight. He drew his .40 and had to fire 11 times, even then one of the perps was able to run out the door, collapsing in the yard.

15 rounds beats 6---ANY day and EVERY day.

Hawk
August 13, 2008, 05:00 PM
15 > 6: no argument from me but they have to hit.

If, for whatever reason, one hits better with a wheelgun, it would seem prudent to go with that option. Perhaps in moonclip configuration or speedloader drills?

Sometimes it's just not worth trying to ice skate uphill.

Drgong
August 13, 2008, 05:05 PM
Indeed Hawk,

I love my BHP, it a fun gun to shoot, and it a peice of art really. I shot it and it seemed to be ok, I know it was more accurate then I was. Other people have shot my BHP and it not the gun problem if I don't hit well.

Then I shoot my Nagant and get better results, At worse if I buy a ruger and I can't shoot better then my BHP, then I know I have the worlds greatest Nagant ;)

Handling revolvers seems more natural to me, If it turns out that I am worse in the end with the revolver, no great loss as I already have one of the best Autoloaders out there, and I will accept that I will need a lot of training to shoot well.

I am looking at a 5-6 round .357 or .327 as we speak actually, and if it confirms that I shoot better with revolvers, I will focus more on wheelguns needless to say. :cool:

Drgong
August 13, 2008, 05:08 PM
Just to name one off the top of my head, there's the 70-year old military retiree from Louisville who had to fire 11 rounds from his semi-auto .40 cal, in order to take out two armed robbers in an apartment he was the landlord of.

How many times did he hit the Bad guys? a Glock with a 30 round clip won't mean squat if you don't hit with it.

Coyote3855
August 13, 2008, 07:54 PM
I dunno. But I just realized the last three handguns I bought were revolvers, as will the next two. I'm also starting to read the THR black powder section. You think it's a trend?

Tom Servo
August 13, 2008, 10:46 PM
Whether you're a soldier, an LEO, or just an average joe civilian---a 15-round high capacity magazine provides a lot more protection than a 6-round widowmaker.

Funny thing is, I personally know three people who've been in gunfights. Here's how it went:

In no case were more than two shots fired
The largest caliber was 9mm, followed by .38spl and .22 WMR.
Targets were neutralized almost instantly.
In each case, the shooter relied on training, sought cover and placed his shots.

I carry a revolver ~70% of the time, and I've no reservations about its effectiveness. Sure, there are semiautos that hold 15 rounds, but if I haven't done my job in six, what good are nine more going to do?

"Spray and pray" only saves the bacon in movies.

Ultimately, it boils down to carrying a reliable gun you can shoot well. I've got nothing against a good automatic, but I hardly feel outgunned carrying a wheelgun.

(Does it count as a "widowmaker" if I'm single?)

Drgong
August 13, 2008, 10:51 PM
the term widowmaker needs to be reserved for the AR-18...

Hawk
August 13, 2008, 11:24 PM
the term widowmaker needs to be reserved for the AR-18...

Or...

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/assets/10071.jpg

DougDubya
August 14, 2008, 02:36 PM
Revolvers make widows best when the shooter hits what he aims at.

As Hawk said - if you can't hit with six, how can you do better with 18?

Sistema1927
August 14, 2008, 03:02 PM
If I knew that I was going to be in a gunfight I would carry a rifle.

However, for most of my daily commerce a J-frame in the pocket beats a hi-cap uber-semi left in the gunsafe.

Life is full of compromises.

Risasi
August 14, 2008, 03:11 PM
David slew Goliath with one stone and had four to spare in case his brothers showed up.

The only incident I was involved in where I had to draw a gun I didn't even have to fire a shot.

For other defensive scenarios, hit what you're aiming at, and you won't need that many shots. But for those who want to carry that many rounds - more power to you.
But if I need that many rounds methinks I should have opted for the "bring a rifle...and friends" credo.

Or perhaps I shouldn't be operating in such a climate...




When I do carry a slide action I prefer a 1911 w/ 7-rd dimpled mags anyway. So for me there isn't much of a difference whether I carry a 5 shot snubby or a single-stack 1911.

Risasi
August 14, 2008, 03:18 PM
Confidence (http://www.liquidflannel.com/Confidence.jpg)



Yeah, practice with a DA revolver pays off. :neener:



What is it El Tejon used to say; Software trumps hardware....

DougDubya
August 14, 2008, 07:22 PM
Three five shot snubbies can be carried more easily than a 17+1 shot autoloader.

IWB, pocket AND ankle carry go a long way to making things equal.

CallMeIshmael
August 14, 2008, 07:33 PM
I actually saw a picture of a guy who was carrying two shoulder holster centennials along with one each in both front and back pockets and two more in IWB holsters, one on each side and two ankle holsters for a total of 10 (count 'em) fully loaded snubbies all concealed! With a little extra effort I can think of ways to carry an additional 3 snubbies also concealed. Who says you need a hi-cap 9mm?

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