Question for Paul "Fitz" Jones LUBES


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Turk
August 29, 2003, 01:56 PM
Paul,

Since you were the top sales person for SAECO you may be able to answer this question concerning lubes.

I currently use LBT's Green lube and I get no leading shooting very healthy loads in 357 mag., 41 mag., 44 mag., 45 Colt and 454 Casull. I shoot both PB and GC mould manufactures are Ballisti-cast, Redding/Saeco and Lyman.

Here's the question.

From your experience how good is the Saeco Green and Gold lubes relating to leading?

Thanks,

Turk

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Paul "Fitz" Jones
September 6, 2003, 02:43 AM
Turk, I was the distributor for the Saeco company founded by Bob Modisette in 1947 and I represented him in the 1970s until his death in 1978. Bobs daughter took over and I stayed on until she sold the company to a fellow that started cheapening the quality so I quit in 1979. HW lasted for 2 years and the company then sold to Redding company who is also making a cheaper quality product.

My founding California Saeco Company only sold one highly successful bullet lube the Saeco "Green" Lube which I wholeheartedly sold. I have quite a collection of the bullet lube formulas used by decades of top competitors and the California Saeco Secret green formula was the best.

I have had no contact with the current 4th company with the Saeco name and have no idea of the formulations and usefullness of their bullet lubricants.

Unfortunately many of the quality materials used in bulletcasting tools and lubricant formulas up to 1980 and the sales of the companies at the death or retirement of the founders are considered too expensive to be used in todays market where "Made on the Cheap" is a current motto.

It is an unfortunate fact that buying a famous name does not insure for very long the same quality the original name was known for.

Paul Jones
I plan on compiling a Bulletcasting booklet this winter along with a
Star Reloader operation manual

LAH
September 6, 2003, 03:27 PM
We sell bullets using LBT Blue Soft lube on a limited bases. If the lube you are using is anything like this stuff I would see no reason to change. Our standard lube is great stuff also and works really well at the upper velocity range. It's also great for shipping purposes.

Lot's of people like the soft lube and some of is great stuff and I've shot a lot of it over the years. Now days I shoot mostly our standard hard lube in both sixguns and rifles.

Paul said he had no contact with the current owner of Redding/Saeco so I'll throw my two cents in here. I have two of their current moulds. They are great. Bullet weights are as stated, so are diameters. The moulds are vented perfectly and cast with ease. The spure cutters are perfectly alined, fit flush to the mould bodies, and cut with ease. Two moulds isn't much to go on but from my limited use I've happy. Both bullet designs are deadly accurate.

So much for moulds. I can't speak to their lube, lubersizer, dies and reloading press. I do though have a hunger for the Ultra Press. Just my 2.

Paul "Fitz" Jones
September 6, 2003, 07:57 PM
ALL bullet luber designs were originally designed long before WW2 to use SOFT lubricants of beeswax, candle wax and and automotive and railroad greases with some exotic ingredients sometimes thrown in.

California Saeco kept secret the use of automotive STP in their Green lube formula that I also kept secret until long after the death of Bob M the founder..

The lubers were made of cast iron and the Star luber was sold to Magma company that makes it of cheaper aluminum castings and they modified it for commercial use and added a heater for Hard lubes.. The commercial bullet casters I know are unhappy with it as a used Original Star luber is considered better than a new Magma Star luber copy that needs gaskets to keep from leaking lube. It also eats the gaskets in changing caliber dies

As far as I am concerned the hard lubes stay on the bullet and do not melt to coat and protrect the weapon barrel. The hard tubes to me are only a benefit to the lube sellers and some commercial cast bullet makers as they are not sticky in shipping the bullets during hot weather.

Home bullet casters only need to line up neatly the bullets coming from their lubers and to cool them in their fridges before loading them which solves the problem of stickiness particularly with the STP formulations.

It took some time for our ancestors to realize that use of graphite in their weapons and bullet lubes allowed the graphite to absorb moisture and when in a weapon caused rust and pitting. Our bodies are surrounded by an envelope of moisture from our breathing and sweat so graphite should not be near our bodies.

I also liked as second best the decades old NRA approved Tamarack Co. formiula of 50/50 Alox 2813F and beeswax and still have a supply of them in my bulletcasting collection.

The current Saeco molds are second best to the originals in my collection as the originals used Meehanite Cast Iron that is too expensive for current mold makers today and the metal is mainly used for the bases or foundations of computer controlled CNC machines. Also Bob did the unheard proceedure of sending his molds to a space age machine shop to have the mold tops perfectly mated to the sprue bottoms by "Blanchard Grinding" and the current company only uses a spring washer to hold the sprue down..

The original molds made the most identical weight bullets ever made that have won the most matches since 1947 of any molds and the originals are multi lifetime molds. Every one of the thousands of molds I sold decades ago are still in use. They can be recognized by having no name stamped on them other than the mold number on the sprue and with patterned gunstock walnut mold handles in a white California Saeco address box in old timers reloading rooms.
I can identify which company made any Saeco name mold if asked and their quality. Any mold made over 4 cavities with the Saeco name is Junk.

The current younger generation does not know the difference as current products are made "On The Cheap to still sell at high prices.

Paul Jones
Retired and Loving It
http://www.topica.com/lists/BulletcastersBulletin Board

Sven
September 6, 2003, 08:07 PM
The current younger generation does not know the difference as current products are made "On The Cheap to still sell at high prices.

Paul Jones,

The younger generation is listening. ;)

Turk
September 8, 2003, 12:31 PM
Thanks for the input. The LBT lube really works great I was just wondering if the Redding/Saeco Green was as good. Over the last years (25 plus casting) I’ve used different lubes for soft, hard and even a clear liquid for low-end velocities. One of the best in my opinion is the NRA Alox formula. I personally don’t like it since it’s messy and also makes a lot of smoke when firing. The LBT Blue is really nice as it doesn’t give me any leading and accuracy is super. I’m in the process of making and testing a home brew but I don’t know if it will be worth the trouble.

I would also like to make a comment about currently manufactured reloading and moulding equipment. Some new people to the sport may think there is nothing but junk being made today which I totally disagree. I cast over 22 kinds of calibers/styles/weights of bullets and I use Ballistici-Cast, Lyman and Redding/Saeco moulds and have one on order from LBT. ALL drop excellent bullets relating to diameter, weight, milling etc. I have four Redding/Saeco mould and couldn’t ask for a better bullet. The Redding/Saeco reloading and casting equipment are quality manufactured. My favorite moulds are from Ballistici-Cast but have no complaints form the other companies.

I currently use a Star (new) sizer/luber and it works as designed and my second choice would be the Saeco.

So if you want to get into casting bullets don’t worry about whether today’s moulds are good enough they’ll give you consistent and accurate bullets.

Have a good day and remember to pray for our troops fighting around the world.

Paul "Fitz" Jones
September 8, 2003, 01:07 PM
You cannot judge what you have not seen.

With having in your hands a founders California Saeco Mold and a Redding Saeco copy comparing the sprues visually and opening and closing the sprues makes the difference very obvious. Also checking the resulting bullets for identical weights.

The Calif Saeco Powder measure micro setting drums are honed to a mirror finish and ground to an accuracy of .0003 and the measure body to accept an "X"grade plug gage. And was made for extreme accuracy for competitors.

Comparing an original Star Luber that has never needed gaskets with the aluminium copy that needs and eats gaskets is also obvious. Compare the weight of the original with the aluminum copy. Ask a commercial bulletcaster that has both.

The originals are excellent and collectible now. Years from now the The copies won't be.

Men swear by what they have and can afford.
John Paul

Steve Smith
September 8, 2003, 01:21 PM
FWFL is some of the best bullet lube you can get (similar to LBT) but you make it at home. Search for FWFL here or at TFL.

LAH
September 8, 2003, 04:01 PM
I have never compared the Left Coast Saeco stuff to Redding. I've never compared H&G to Ballisti Cast. I don't compare Star to Magma Star. Or Dillon to Star. No reason too.

I can only speak to what we use. I have two old Star lubers and two Magma Star lubers. Both work the same and I see no difference in the bullets when they fall out the bottom. The new ones with the O ring, instead of the set screw, will leak "some" lube with "some" of the dies, but not "all" and not "bad".

You often say the old ones (SD Star) will out last the new ones (Magma Star). You may by correct and I have no reason to question your statement. I can say I have a new one with appox. two tons of lead through it and it's still going strong. So while they might not be the great and never to be replaced SD Star, I can say for the hobby and custom caster the Magma Star is hard to beat when compared to everything else out there.

I can say much the same for moulds and loading machines. My equipment makes very good bullets, ask my customers. My loading equipment also loads good ammo, ask the guys who shoot it.

Blessings to my friend on the left side of the nation.

Creeker You are the one that told me your magma luber "eats" gaskets. I thought Turk asked me a question here. John Paul

LAH
September 9, 2003, 03:53 PM
Had one Magma sizer that the sizing die would cut the O ring when installed. The groove in the die housing wasn't cut deep enough.

I have one new Star and one old Star on the bench side by side. We use both and I'm mostly happy with both. The old one is used mostly for the LBT soft lube which requires very little heat. In fact you could probably get by with no heat but when you use the equipment as much as I do every little bit to ease operation helps.

The new sizer is used for hard lube and is a little easier to use but only because a die requires no tool because of the before mentioned O ring.

I have another old Star I purchased from you and those who buy from Paul can expect good service and a product that is described correctly.

Turk did ask you a question and perhaps I should have just stayed out of it. I did'nt comment on the Saeco Green and Gold lube though and left that to you. I will stand on my statement about the Saeco moulds though. The two I have cannot be faulted.

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