Registration system seems to work


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RonE
July 29, 2008, 06:15 PM
I got a call this morning from the Colusa, County (California) Sheriffs Office asking if I had a Remington 870 shotgun stolen from me.....I replied that I didn't know of any stolen shotguns but that I had owned several Remington 870's. The sheriffs officer said that I had purchased it in 1987 and I replied that it must have been from Huntingtons Sportsmans Store in Oroville, Ca. The deputy said, yes that is correct. He said that the gun was used in a crime and that I could have it back after the court case but that the barrel had been cut shorter and it was thrown out the window at 65mph during the getaway chase and was pretty rough.

I told the deputy that it was probably an 870 that I had bought for a prize for a Ducks Unlimited dinner back then and I had no idea who ended up with it and that all the 870's that I had ever owned were traded off, sold or given away long since. I also told him that if he would send me a bill of sale I would sign it and send it back to him and the SO could use the gun for whatever they wanted.

Amazing that govt agencies are able to keep records for 21 years and also a little dishearting.

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swift535
July 29, 2008, 06:35 PM
you got rid of the gun and didn't have a bill of sale yourself? kind of qualifies as documentation to keep in a safe deposit box imo

ChrisVV
July 29, 2008, 06:39 PM
Can I ask how in your opinion the registration system "works" if the shotgun was still used in a crime?

Firearm Registration = Gun Control = Control

It did not stop a criminal from using it in a crime.

kingjoey
July 29, 2008, 06:42 PM
That wasn't due to 'registration', but due to 4473's. When the gun was recovered in the crime, the sheriff's office requested an ATF trace. The ATF looks at their records to see where Remington or their distributor shipped the gun originally, then that gun store gets a call from the ATF with the particular model and serial number and the date it was shipped to the FFL, then the FFL has 24hrs to dig thru their records and fax the 4473 over to the ATF office. If you're the FFL that gets that call figure on the rest of your day being flushed down the toilet :banghead:

Rustynuts
July 29, 2008, 07:07 PM
Another reason I would prefer to go through an FFL even on a private sale. You never really know how it might be used, or where a FTF transaction might end up. At least with an FFL record, they'll go after the last link in the chain!

csmkersh
July 29, 2008, 07:24 PM
The frightening thing about this is they could have been looking for the weapon to sieze it as was done with "assault rifles" back wen Dan Lundgrun was the State AG. California outlawed certain semi-autos based on looks and ordered owners to either turn them in or sell them out of state. And yes, Ve know who you are. Sig Heil!

RonE
July 29, 2008, 09:16 PM
Can I ask how in your opinion the registration system "works" if the shotgun was still used in a crime?


I don't mean to imply that registration of guns stops crime. I was suprised that after 21 years the Feds were able to work with the State to get the information that I was the last "registered" owner. I was the only one in the past 21 years that filled out a form with my name and the SN and type of gun. I gave the gun away the day after I got it and since that time it seems to have stayed within 50 miles of the original purchase place. I called Huntingtons Sportsmans Store today and spoke to the manager (then and now) and he was suprised too. Noone had contacted him about the gun. Here is Huntingtons web site: http://www.huntingtonsports.com/

Perhaps if the feds hadn't made us go to steel shot for waterfoul, that old 870 would still be a duck gun and wouldn't have been sold off to a jerk or traded or stolen and used in a crime......We can blame it on the feds! Since I bought that gun, I have had 4 addresses in California and one in Texas.

copenhagen
July 29, 2008, 09:20 PM
Well, I for one prefer FTF transfers, because, regardless of where a gun has been, in my opininion, if confiscation in mass was ever considered, I think it better to give them an empty gopher hole to dig up. I own plenty of firearms I purchased from FFLs, I'm just saying what I think is the big advantage of having a few 'paperless' ones around.

dalepres
July 29, 2008, 10:23 PM
Let's see. They call you to say they found a shotgun that you aren't positive you ever owned? And that is registration working?

Registration will really be shown to work when you hear from the lawyer of the victim of the crime; now that's registration at its best.

Halo
July 29, 2008, 10:34 PM
So can we conclude that the maintenance of 4473 forms is de facto national registration? I mean we keep discussing how registration is just a stepping stone to confiscation, but it seems that for all intents and purposes we already have at least a partial registration system. Why aren't we more outraged? Is it because, like purchase permits and the like, it's just something we have all "gotten used to"?

Packman
July 29, 2008, 10:41 PM
Wait, I'm a tad confused about the registration-tracing thing...

If you buy it, ok, there's a 4473. They can trace the serial # from the manufacturer to the deal to you.

But what if you bought it used? if the 4473 stays with the FFL, then how do they know that a particular FFL moved it along somewhere down the line? doesn't it still dead end at the original buyer, since "there's no national registry?"

copenhagen
July 29, 2008, 10:42 PM
doesn't it still dead end at the original buyer, since "there's no national registry?"

It does for now.. unless of course, you are in the Peoples Republic of California.

RonE
July 30, 2008, 12:52 AM
So can we conclude that the maintenance of 4473 forms is de facto national registration? I mean we keep discussing how registration is just a stepping stone to confiscation, but it seems that for all intents and purposes we already have at least a partial registration system. Why aren't we more outraged? Is it because, like purchase permits and the like, it's just something we have all "gotten used to"?

I think you have hit the nail on the head.

When I buy a gun, it is because I want the gun and I don't care if I have to fill out a form or just hand over some cash, it is all the same to me. If I sell a gun through a FFL holder, the next person has to fill out paperwork and I would probably be out of the loop. If I sell a gun face to face and subsiquently that gun was recovered as a result of a crime, there is no telling how many hands it has passed through.

If you sold a gun face to face that you had purchased new and were confronted about the gun and you replied I don't know, don't remember, etc. would you be looked at as a dealer without a license? I think that that is possible.

I do believe that we have defacto nation wide registration when we buy a new gun through a dealer.

billdeserthills
July 30, 2008, 01:05 AM
Well this is the reason that an FFL must keep the 4473 forms for the life of the business, or turn them All in to the ATF when they go out of business.

Unless of course a fire breaks out, yeah, right in my store... but only burns up the bound books and the 4473 forms...:what:

The Lone Haranguer
July 30, 2008, 01:52 AM
So can we conclude that the maintenance of 4473 forms is de facto national registration?
This having taken place in California, there is more to it. Gun purchases are registered with the DOJ, right down to a physical description and serial number. This is on a DROS (Dealer's Record of Sale) form - different from the 4473 - a copy of which is transmitted to the DOJ (and for which you pay extra).

wacki
July 30, 2008, 09:37 AM
aren't ATF records supposed to be erased after a certain amount of time?

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