[Zhivago]

I know this has been asked a million times probably, but anything I find in searching deals with Federal vs Winchester vs Speer vs etc.

My question is this:

Generally speaking, how do different iterations of 9mm hollow points perform? For example, in terms of self defense ammo, how does 124 grain compare to 124 grain +P compare to 147 grain? I know that +P means it will have higher velocity but how does that extra velocity affect expansion? And 147 grain will have lower velocity (sub-sonic) so how does that affect expansion? Which produces the most desireable result? What is most commonly used?

Side notes:
I'm not looking at +P+

I'm not really interested in brand vs brand because in all my research I've pretty much settled on Federal HST or Winchester SXT depending on how they feed in my new M&P9 which I'll be recieving next week.

[lions]

I saw a thread on here about 147 gr hp not expanding reliably. Hold that thought, I'll be right back with it.

EDIT: Found it. Also, I use 124 gr.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=153001&highlight=experts+147

[N1150X]

I use a glock 34 (it has a 5.3" tube 9mm) and I believe that heavier is better in any cal. However, I would only use the 147gr in a barrel that is long enough to get 950 fps or more I think 1100-1200 fps is ideal. If your tube is short 3.7" or less I say use 124 gr +p to keep your speed up. Basically use whatever load is the heavest and stays above 950 fps


I use 147gr HST in my HD 9mm (you can get 147gr +p HST also)

[rollback88]

I have chosen 147gr Federal Hydrashocks for the sub-1000 fps and .50-ish expansion, with 10-12 inches of penetration (in gel) to overcome the risk of higher-speed bullets over-penetrating and finding its way to another room of the house.

--jcd

[Zhivago]

I overlooked the 147 grain +P

Seems like that might offer the best of both worlds?

[2075 RAMI]

For myself, I find that there is no need to use a round larger than 9mm 124 gr. for personal defense/conceal carry. I feel thoroughly secure carrying my 9mm RAMI loaded with 124gr. HPs.

[belus]

I have yet to settle on 124gr Gold Dots or 124gr +P Golden Sabers. I don't expect to be disappointed with either.

I'll probably chose the gold dots if I can find any place confirming they use a lead-silver alloy. I like that idea if there's truth to it.

[Zhivago]

Planning ahead for werewolf encounters?:D

[Cpt_Impossible]

I have heard nothing but good things about the Federal 147 grain HST's. Many police agencies have posted their test results showing it to be the better choice for them. Good penetration, retains full weight even through glass or drywall, and has excellent expansion.

Only complaint I have heard is of guns not feeding them properly, but if you can confirm your gun feeds it properly at the range, I would say go with them.

[Cpt_Impossible]

http://le.atk.com/pdf/SanAngeloWBW_Report.pdf Here is one such report done with the 45 ACP. Bullet seems to preform extremely well.

*Edit* Here is the list of agency tests that it looks like Federal sponsored.
http://le.atk.com/general/irl/woundballistics.aspx

[Deus Machina]

124 +P's for me, if only because it's the most common Gold Dots I can find to feed the thing.

I'd carry 147 with or without the +P if I could find a load I trust, locally.

At this point, they all work. Gold Dot, Cor Bon DPX, or Federal HST. Stick to those three, find out what will feed, and any load they come in is effective.

[skoro]

I think any of those 3 with a good modern hollow point bullet would be fine.

[ugaarguy]

I don't really get hung up on grain weight and brand in 9mm, with the exception of not shooting reduced recoil loads in any caliber. If you take a look over at www.brassfetcher.com you'll see that almost all 9mm JHPs from major manufacturers deliver acceptable performance. Practice so you can make the shots count regardless of ammo.

[Zhivago]

I appreciate all the responses. The one thing that seems to be missing is any reasoning as to WHY someone might choose 124 grain instead of 147 grain. Or WHY someone might choose standard instead of +P loads. Or vice versa.

[CWL]

I know that you are trying to limit the parameters of your bullet quest, but once again, it is too difficult to generalize by weight of bullet alone.

124gr bullets come in all manner of designs, FMJ, JHP, EFMJ, truncated, lead, etc. etc.

147gr bullets also are much longer, especially HPs -they may not even feed correctly on your pistol. They also have a tendency to 'beat up' certain pistols.

I think that you are looking in the wrong places, what you should really do is to buy bullets that are easily available where you live, compare how they feel/fire/function at the range and choose the ones which best perform for you and which you can afford.

[Zhivago]

My fault if I didnt make that clear. I'm talking self defense ammo only, so hollow points. Specifically Federal HST as my first choice.

And I know you are right. The only way to make real progress is to buy a box of everything and see what the gun gobbles and what it turns it's nose up at. I'm just looking for reasoning beyond that, assuming that it eats everything well.

[2075 RAMI]

I agree with CWL. I don't use 147gr. because they can be rough on your gun. This is also the same reason I don't use +p or +p+.

Also, the plus loads may put you at greater legal risk if the round were to go through your intended target, striking an innocent bystander.

[Hook686]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/dmchinnock/Handgun_gel_comparison_service_cali.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/dmchinnock/Handgun_expanded_JHP.jpg


In essence the tactical found these the better performers and concluded there really was no significant difference in the standard service calibers.

Keeping in mind that handguns generally offer poor incapacitation potential, bullets with effective terminal performance are available in all of the most commonly used duty pistol calibers—pick the one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits you likely engagement scenarios.

--------------------------------------------------

The following loads have all demonstrated outstanding terminal performance:

9 mm:
Barnes 105 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Fed 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Speer 124 gr +P JHP (53617)
Win 124 gr JHP (RA91P)
Win 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Fed 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Rem 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer 147 gr JHP (53619)
Win 147 gr JHP (RA9T)



http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000581#000002

[rklessdriver]

I voted other because my carry load has been the 115gr Federal 9BPLE for the past 10yrs at least. I know it works and it has the track record on the street to prove it. When looking at 9mm rounds and their actual record of shooting performance the 9BPLE stands head and shoulders above anything else. It may not look as good on paper or shooting into geletan as some of the newer rounds but it downs BG's effectively. Even thou it is advertised as a 9mm +P+, that is/was all marketing hype for the Police Depts back when it was introuduced.

I do have a few hundred rounds of the new Federal bonded HST 124gr +P on hand thou. Very promising round and I now keep one mag for my Beretta loaded with it when I travel long distances. I feel given more time this round could very well surpass the 9BPLE as the most effective 9mm round.

NOW All That Said. Shot placement is the most important thing when you are in a life and fight. Almost any modern ammo is capable of doing the job if you do yours. I carry 9BPLE and HST because I believe my research has shown they strike the best balance between velocity, expansion, penetration, accuracy and known street performance plus they feed 100% in MY PISTOLS. It's just what I believe nothing more. However I know - when it comes down to it that I can be effective with a .22LR if I HAVE to be. That is the most important thing.

Look at the chart/PIC HOOK686 posted. 5 different calibers and 6 different bullet weights, desgins and velocities. They all will do the job if need be.
Will

[Deanimator]

I have the cheap Winchester white box 147gr. HPs in my 9mm guns (Glock 19 and BHP). I believe it was Box of Truth which tested and rated that load very highly, causing me to select it. I've never shot anyone with it, but the accuracy and reliability are everything that I could wish for.

[skinewmexico]

Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. If you're so concerned you think +P will make a difference, you should probably just get a bigger caliber.

[NG VI]

I like 147 or 147 +P for HST, but I also have some 124 +P Gold Dots that I like as well. I aslo like the 124 +P HST.

I think our 124 +P is actually pretty weak, 124 at 1200 shouldn't be +P when the NATO load is 124 just shy (1 foot per second) of 1300 feet per second.

[TyRip]

147gr +p, of course

The P9HST4 is a mean load, and what goes in our guns at my house.

[Halo]

I think our 124 +P is actually pretty weak, 124 at 1200 shouldn't be +P when the NATO load is 124 just shy (1 foot per second) of 1300 feet per second.

I suspect some of this may be due to flash suppressants used in a lot of the "premium" defense ammo. Apparently the suppressants increase pressure without contributing to higher velocities.

[JKimball]

I use Speer Gold Dot 124 gr. because it says "The choice of Law Enforcement" on the box.

My CCW instructor said that some prosecutors and juries have given SD shooters grief because their ammo was especially deadly. :rolleyes:

[Zhivago]

See my issue is that people say "I use 124 grain +P" or "I use 147 grain" but no one offers any insight to their reasoning.

WHY choose +P over standard? Does it have a beneficial effect on expansion? Or does a slightly faster bullet just sound like a good idea? Chances are a bad guy wont notice the extra 50-100 FPS so what's the reasoning?

WHY choose 147 grain over 124 grain? How does the extra weight carry over into better expansion or energy transfer? Is there a reasoning behind the choice or is it just the quest for the biggest bullet moving as fast as possible?

When it all comes down to it, I'd rather be shot in the arm or leg with a .45 than in the head or spine or heart or major blood pathway with a .22 because in the end shot placement IS the most important factor. A hollow point that doesnt expand properly is still going to be a chunk of metal that hits Mr. Bad Man traveling at about 1/4 mile per second. Under IDEAL conditions (namely good shot placement) what is the beneficial effect of velocity and how does that compare to the effect of having a higher mass bullet? Well I know PART of that. A higher velocity yields more energy available to transfer during impact with Mr. Bad Man and as such, theoretically causes more damage. But if it's going too fast, with too much energy, the bullet over penetrates and some energy is wasted. Having a slightly heavier bullet traveling almost as fast yields similar energy. What is the best compromise and WHY?

Ramblings. Hope that made sense.

[Halo]

I think the debate about those things is largely a leftover from the earlier generations of hollow point designs. In the quest for the "ideal" compromise between expansion and penetration, different schools of thought came into being. Nowadays it seems like the latest generation bullet designs are able to yield a surprisingly similar penetration and expansion across a range of bullet weights, and even a range of calibers for that matter. The one thing that hasn't changed is the axiom that shot placement matters most.

But isn't it a lot more fun to argue over the most esoteric aspects of +P or no, 124 or 147, 9mm or 45??? :D

[crushbup]

I put 147, as long as you are using HST. I'm not as familiar with the SXT, but from the pictures I've seen (both rounds tested in the same test) HST did better, with SXT not living up to its hype.

[Zhivago]

HST is my first choice provided it feeds well in my pistol. If not, Winchester Ranger T-Series and Speer Gold Dot are the next contenders. I dont really anticipate issues with HST though since I plan on trying 124 grain and 147 grain both, to see which feeds better.

[Halo]

How long has HST been around? For some reason I have only recently become aware of it. I gather it's a very high performing round, but is it really any better than the Gold Dot? GD has been my preferred choice for several years now, with my aging supply of Ranger 127 +P+ 2nd.

[167]

147gr bullets in general penetrate deeper than their lighter counterparts because of the lower velocity which means the bullets expands slower/less when it hits the target and because of higher sectional density. 124gr bullets are faster, so tend to expand quicker/more than their heavier counterparts. This in turn reduces penetration as well as the lower sectional density. When you throw in the +p you just get more expansion because of the increased velocity. For the people who like expansion, it seems they go with lighter rounds and sometimes +p rounds. For the guys who are penetration fanatics, they tend to like the 147gr versions.

The one exception seems to be the Corbon DPX because of the bullet design and material.

As long as the bullet shoots to point of aim, functions well in your gun/mags, and penetrates to whatever depth you think is necessary (FBI suggest 12"), it will work.

Some people suggest using +p rounds in short barrel guns (less than 4") to help compensate for velocity lost due to the short barrel.

I use 124gr +p Golden Sabers in my G19 because that is what I can get for cheap, they work well in my gun, and they go 12" deep.

[Zhivago]

http://www.btfh.net/shoot/bullet-test-2.html

http://le.atk.com/general/federalproducts/pistol/tacticalhst.aspx

A couple test results for HST.

[Halo]

What do you all think of the Cor-Bon DPX and Taurus Hex? They use the same solid copper HP made by Barnes. I'm intrigued enough to maybe try a few boxes just to see how well they cycle, etc. But I'm also a bit leery of the possibility that it might just be a gimmick.

[Hook686]

Yesterday, 08:03 PM #26

Zhivago wrote:


See my issue is that people say "I use 124 grain +P" or "I use 147 grain" but no one offers any insight to their reasoning.

WHY choose +P over standard? Does it have a beneficial effect on expansion? Or does a slightly faster bullet just sound like a good idea? Chances are a bad guy wont notice the extra 50-100 FPS so what's the reasoning?
....


I use 147 grain +P+ using the following rationalizations:

- it takes energy to break the muscle, tissue and bone bonds that protect critical organ
- Once the projectile reaches a critical organ, it needs sufficient energy to do serious damage
- in this 'journey of the projectile' conservation of energy and conservation of momentum needs be maintained
- there seems to be two distinct views for this 'journey of the projectile': the light and fast, and the slow and heavy
- I prefer the fast and heavy

[Steve C]

We do a lot of discussion regarding self defense ammo but for the most part the particular load doesn't matter most of the time, esp. for civilians who for the most part don't run toward deadly situations. Hollow points are more effective than the typical FMJ or JSP in all ammo across the board. Examining the only statistical data which is published by Marshall and Sanow (sp) they are perhaps 50% to 60% more effective as a group but the difference between the relative effectiveness of various HP ammo is much less significant, generally 10% to 20% between the worst performing to the best and a big percentage of that difference is the barrel length of the pistol.

Simply put I'd say that if you use any JHP ammo that's reliable in your handgun you are going to be well armed. The slight difference in a particular brand of ammo may or may not work in your favor under a relatively small percentage of situations. The truth is that most of us who are not cops, convenience store clerks or drug dealers are relatively unlikely to ever have to shoot someone in self defense, which is a good thing.

The thing that determines most of our selection process is the marketing by the ammo companies.

[Clipper]

I voted other...I want velocity and a solid reputation for reliability, performance and accuracy. That's why I use 115gr silvertip HPs.

[Mccallum]

Mine is 115 gr hollowpoints

[BikerRN]

In 9 MM I favor +P and +P+ loads, unless it's an older gun that won't handle them.

Two of my favorite loads are the CorBon 115 Grain +P JHP DPX and the Federal 115 Grain +P+ JHP's. If the gun can't handle the hotter loads then I personally like the Federal 115 Grain JHP 9BP.

BikerRN

[Blarelli]

147 grain +p goldensabers. They perform well in tests, and work great in my gun.

[-v-]

115gr +P+, specifically the famed (fabled?) Federal BPLE line of ammo. That or the Doubletap 115gr +P ammo. Something that's 1350 FPS from a 4" barrel seems to work very well at convincing a would-be attacker that they should probably stop whatever they are doing.

[167]

147 grain +p goldensabers. They perform well in tests, and work great in my gun.

Did know remington made +p 147gr Golden Sabers. Or are they loaded by a third party who then sells them?