Most Vicious/Lethal .45 ACP Round?


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LovespongeJones
July 30, 2008, 08:14 AM
Can someone tell me the type and grain of the absolute most lethal .45 ACP round that will pretty much guarantee near fail-proof defeat with one shot? If possible, I'd like to also have the ammo not cause heavy recoil, so fast follow-up shots can be easier (even if one round itself is enough).

So essentially I'm looking for the type and grain of the most lethal round that maintains manageable recoil. I read something somewhere about Black Talons being devastating rounds, but for all I know there could be something better. I've also heard that almost all .45 rounds are man-stoppers, it just depends on which ones expand more. I have no clue about pistol ammo, and tomorrow I'm ordering an HK USP Compact .45 for defense, and I need to know which ammo to get in the future.

Thanks.

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marcodo
July 30, 2008, 08:22 AM
Here's agood start

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=377538

LovespongeJones
July 30, 2008, 08:33 AM
Thanks. I feel stupid now for not looking further before posting. I'm currently looking into Extreme Shock ammo, particularly the "Fang Face" bullets. They look majorly advanced.

rantingredneck
July 30, 2008, 08:37 AM
Save your money. Majorly advanced at marketing perhaps.

Quality 230gr JHP from a reputable manufacturer. Shot placement. Practice.

No such thing as a guaranteed one shot stop with any man portable weapon.

SaxonPig
July 30, 2008, 08:38 AM
The wording of your question makes me wonder if you are not in fact an anti-gun activist trying to portray the members of this forum as bloodthirsty barbarians.

Assassins worry about the lethality of their ammunition, not law-abiding citizens who rely on handguns for defense of self and family. Most any 45 ACP ammunition will work effectively to stop a violent, criminal attacker and that's what we want.

XD45
July 30, 2008, 08:41 AM
Stuff I've read showed the Fang Faces to be more hype than anything else. Go with Federal HST (my current choice) or Winchester Rangers (T-series).

LovespongeJones
July 30, 2008, 08:44 AM
SaxonPig, no, I am in fact a pro-gun conservative. I just have no experience with handguns and their ammo whatsoever. I've shot a 9mm and a .38 for fun a couple times in my life, and that was roughly six years ago. It's just time that I'm going to buy a real handgun for practice and defensive use and I wanted to know an ammo type that was deadly effective and highly reliable, yet manageable. That is all.

Kayback
July 30, 2008, 08:50 AM
The most lethal .45ACP is one that impacts in a triangle between the eyes and mouth.

Aside from that no pistol is really powerful enough to ensure a single shot kill.



KBK

Marlin 45 carbine
July 30, 2008, 09:01 AM
Remington factory Golden Sabre is a good choice, not hot-loaded but the slug sure makes a nasty wound channel.
can't substitute for good placement though.

skywarp_
July 30, 2008, 09:07 AM
Hahaha fang face ammo.


Wow.


Yeah.


What everyone else said. Most anything will work but i like the Ranger T's and HSTs

doc2rn
July 30, 2008, 09:18 AM
+1 to Winchester Rangers, that is what I carry in my FNP.

Walkalong
July 30, 2008, 09:21 AM
The wording of your question makes me wonder if you are not in fact an anti-gun activist trying to portray the members of this forum as bloodthirsty barbarians. Crossed my mind too.

Buy any major makers HP that will feed in your gun well, practice, and hope you never have to use them.

HGUNHNTR
July 30, 2008, 09:21 AM
The Remington 185gr +P Golden Saber would be my vote. Others noted would be very good as well.

basicblur
July 30, 2008, 09:26 AM
So essentially I'm looking for the type and grain of the most lethal round that maintains manageable recoil. I read something somewhere about Black Talons being devastating rounds, but for all I know there could be something better

Well I'm going to assume you're a noob based on your Black Talon remark. Do yourself a favor and get your hands on Stopping Power: A Practical Analysis of the Latest Handgun Ammunition" (http://www.amazon.com/Stopping-Power-Practical-Analysis-Ammunition/dp/158160128X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217423494&sr=8-1).
Maybe starting to get a bit out of date, and some folks just love to hate these guys, but it makes for some interesting reading.
Might also get your hands on anything by Massad Ayoob (lots of folks love to hate him also!), 'specially anything that covers actual cases (the actual shooting, legal aspects, etc).

If I remember correctly, Black Talons really weren't that good as they tended to overpenetrate before expanding. Think they were redesigned as Winchester Ranger/SXT? and now expand more quickly, but hey...they don't have that gangsta name now! :D

basicblur
July 30, 2008, 09:30 AM
Can someone tell me the type and grain of the absolute most lethal .45 ACP

You're not shooting to kill, you're shooting to stop.
A little more reading and the semantics will become clear grasshopper!

elChupacabra!
July 30, 2008, 09:38 AM
In .45ACP, I chose Federal Hydrashok 230gr +P. I've got Hydrashoks for all 3 of my defensive handguns, 9mm, 40S&W and .45ACP. I don't exactly know whether they are much better or much worse than the other major offerings (Remington Golden Sabers, Speer Gold Dots, Winchester Rangers, etc.), but I found them at a great price and bought 300 rounds. Although not the most important, cost does factor in since you will need to prove that your gun can feed them reliably without failure of ANY kind. Some say you should put 200 consecutive defensive rounds through the gun without any failure before you load that round for carry / HD. That would probably get expensive with ExtremeShocks... plus almost everybody regards that brand as a joke.

If you really want to be serious about defense, pick a solid, major offering, prove to your satisfaction it works in your gun, and spend plenty of time practicing.

And, as everyone else has said, you do not want LETHAL, VICIOUS rounds. You want effective rounds to stop an attack - you're not trying to kill the felon, you're trying to save your life by stopping him.

Have you considered what a prosecutor might think of this post if you ever DID have to shoot someone? You'd have alot of explaining to do about why you are so interested in vicious, lethal ammunition.

basicblur
July 30, 2008, 09:48 AM
Guess I ought to throw in what I carry since he asked?

I tend to go with Federal Hydra-Shoks, but do have a fair amount of Federal EFMJ.
'Course, things have changed a bit since I did my research and stocked up on defensive ammo.
Don't know exactly what I'd go with today, if not what the local PD uses?

I keep hearing good things 'bout HST and Power Ball, but that's mostly 'Net chatter, and you know how that goes?

NG VI
July 30, 2008, 10:25 AM
Thanks. I feel stupid now for not looking further before posting. I'm currently looking into Extreme Shock ammo, particularly the "Fang Face" bullets. They look majorly advanced.
__________________

Stay away from those. They don't do anything well, box o' truth tested their claims of limited penetration in walls and they failed miserably, punching through as many walls as any regular FMJ bullet. And they weren't very impressive against water either.

Using loaded language like "most lethal ammunition" outside of a hunting context is not going to be very well received. You'll pick up on things as you go though.

Welcome to THR

silverking
July 30, 2008, 11:48 AM
In your search for effective self defense ammo, try to avoid words such as vicious, devastating, destructive, and other hard hitting terms. That should apply to only being attacked by an extremely angry wild four legged animal who might just be a neighbor of your area. BUT--you did say manstopper.

baker437
July 30, 2008, 01:28 PM
Can I suggest you look into some formal training if you have not had any by certify instructor. NRA Basic Pistol Class is great way to become safe and accurate handgunner and typical doesn’t cost that much to do.

http://www.nrahq.org/education/training/find.asp

Two book by Massad Ayoob that I have found helpful when I was starting out in handguns were “In The Greatest Extremes” and more recently Combat Handgunnery .

PO2Hammer
July 30, 2008, 01:54 PM
Edited

REPOMAN
July 30, 2008, 02:22 PM
The best defensive round in the world is no good without the proper shot placement......FWIW

Conqueror
July 30, 2008, 02:28 PM
Here's what I think of Extreme Shock fang face:

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd224/paintballplayer700/esammo.jpg

Seriously, it is crap. Get some Federal HST and never look back.

rcmodel
July 30, 2008, 02:34 PM
They look majorly advanced.
Oh yea!

Anything with NyTrilium in it is so "majorly advanced", modern science hasn't heard of yet.

It's not even a word, let alone an element or alloy.

But then again, 50 or so Mall-Ninjas can't be wrong!

rcmodel

rondog
July 30, 2008, 02:52 PM
Me, I carry Winchester Ranger SXT's in 230gr. They work fine in all my 1911's, and look like they'll discourage your average maggot. Make a fine mess out of water jugs too.

Claude Clay
July 30, 2008, 03:02 PM
your aim:scrutiny: is to stop your assailiant from doing you harm.
golden saber, heavy 9,40 or 45 except in winter use ball ammo.
32, 380, 38 year round use silver tips

Rokyudai
July 30, 2008, 03:06 PM
Echo training and some range time.

It is hard to describe the level of recoil to someone. It is a completely subjective experience i.e. depends on how the individual manages it. Ballistics is a whole ball of wax different and can take up another thread.

I would think someone whose interests are "designing military vehicle armor" would anticipate that.

Tully M. Pick
July 30, 2008, 03:33 PM
Here's what I think of Extreme Shock fang face:

I had to do a double take and broke out laughing. Nice work.

RyanM
July 30, 2008, 03:44 PM
Can someone tell me the type and grain of the absolute most lethal .45 ACP round that will pretty much guarantee near fail-proof defeat with one shot?

What you're looking for is .45 ACP with a high explosive payload, made of tungsten (causes fatal lung cancer after a few months), has sonar in it that lets it sense vital organs, and then some kind of maneuvering jets to steer itself towards them.

Since that doesn't exist, buy a good premium 230 grain hollowpoint, and practice a lot. Recommendations: much as I hate Winchester's politics, their law enforcement only 230 gr Ranger Talons are pretty good. Federal HSTs are decent as well. Rem Golden Sabers are the absolute best of the best in 9mm, and not too shabby in .45.

However, if you need to defend your life, you should expect to have to shoot someone multiple times. "One shot stop" percentages are bunk. Even if the data isn't fabricated outright, it's only a measure of what percent of the time someone stopped (eventually) after being shot only once. Multiple hits are totally discarded, regardless of the outcome. And if you shoot someone only once, why is that? Probably because they stopped, and more shots were unnecessary. Thus, the numbers are extremely inflated. Not even a high-powered rifle will have a 95% chance of a one shot stop.

In real life, the chances of someone immediately collapsing or surrendering when shot (any number of times) somewhere other than the central nervous system, is about 40%. The rest of the time, you'll either need to wait for them to bleed out, or try and manage a head or upper spine shot.

And in real life, people take a long time to bleed out. Bare minimum is about 10 seconds. You should hope that you'll never have to use a firearm at all, but you should plan on (and train for) making multiple center mass hits on multiple adversaries, then reloading and doing it again.

Required reading:

http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/2004/oct2004/oct04leb.htm#page_15 (you may need to scroll down a little; the relevant article is called One-Shot Drops: Surviving the Myth)
http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm
http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS-%20What%20We%20Didn't%20Know%20Hurt%20Us.pdf

Brian Williams
July 30, 2008, 04:01 PM
No, we can't. It will take years of reading and discussion along with 1000s of rounds to be expended in testing and by then some one will have come up with a new-fangled whizbangwhooopeedeedoo projectile that negates all our testing.

the search function is our friend.

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