Handi Rifle .500 S&W Mag recoil..


PDA






chute2thrill
July 31, 2008, 12:31 AM
I really want to get one of these.. I think the low price of the rifle would somewhat offset the outrageous price of the ammo, however I don't want to buy something that I won't be able to shoot... I can handle a 12 gauge just fine.. I don't really like slugs all too much tho.. But I absolutely love shooting my remmy 700 .30-06.. I could shoot it all day if I could afford it.. I'm only 5'6" 140lbs so I'm just wondering if i should get something that kicks a little less or just go for it??

If you enjoyed reading about "Handi Rifle .500 S&W Mag recoil.." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
kingjoey
July 31, 2008, 01:09 AM
We make a .50 cal muzzlebrake :p

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y99/kingjoey/KA%20Stuff/KA-72608037.jpg

chute2thrill
July 31, 2008, 01:22 AM
How much would that actually reduce recoil?

JShirley
July 31, 2008, 02:04 AM
On a .500 S&W? I think the muzzlebrake shown was designed for .50 BMG. It should reduce felt recoil to something like 7.62x39mm.

kingjoey
July 31, 2008, 02:12 AM
Actually, that brake is specifically for smaller 50 cal rifles/carbines such as the Beowulf AR's and such. Although it looks huge in the picture it is only 1.50" wide and 3.00" long and only 1" thick. We're developing a 50BMG brake, this one borrowed some technology from that project for increased recoil reduction and improved efficiency. For better size reference, here's a pic of one being installed on an M4-size Beowulf upper.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y99/kingjoey/KA%20Stuff/Jonah7-24-08012.jpg

chute2thrill
July 31, 2008, 02:19 AM
wow!! It would really take recoil down to 7.62x39mm levels? Now I am extremely interested.. The Handi rifle is only $250 brand new.. Money is burning a hole in my pocket as I type this..

kingjoey
July 31, 2008, 02:37 AM
wow!! It would really take recoil down to 7.62x39mm levels? Now I am extremely interested.. The Handi rifle is only $250 brand new.. Money is burning a hole in my pocket as I type this..

Not sure about the recoil reduction for a 500 S&W, but it works awesome on the 50 Beowulf. This brake is brand new (i.e. we haven't even announced it on the company website yet). As soon as we can procure a sizable amount of 50 Beowulf ammo (everyone seems to be out of it right now) we'll be able to get some more info and some demo video footage. Considering that the 500 S&W is a little less potent than the 50 Beowulf I would expect the recoil to be very manageable with the brake.

chute2thrill
July 31, 2008, 03:19 AM
Thanks kingjoey.. i didn't know which was the more powerful cartridge... the only reason i'm so concerned is because i searched the forums and some people were saying the Handi rifle is extremely light and .500 s&w would be almost unmanagable for some people..

kingjoey
July 31, 2008, 03:41 AM
It'll be a handful. I've shot them in 45/70 and they thump really hard.

chute2thrill
July 31, 2008, 03:46 AM
Thats what I was worried about.. Like I said earlier I'm not really a fan of shooting 12 gauge slugs but I do love what they do to frozen milk jugs... I just might have to look into a muzzle brake!!

PTK
July 31, 2008, 04:11 AM
The NEF HandiRifle in .500 S&W mag H-U-R-T-S. I ended up having to handload much lighter loads to be able to shoot it, as factory MagTech loads destroyed two sets of sights!

To put it mildly, recoil is VERY brisk.

chute2thrill
July 31, 2008, 04:36 AM
awww now I'm scared away again...

PTK
July 31, 2008, 05:36 AM
Don't worry, it's an absolute blast to shoot. Best $250 I've ever spent on a single gun.

Jason M
July 31, 2008, 06:49 AM
A while back I made up an Excel spreadsheet that would automatically calculate muzzle energy and a relative recoil for whatever caliber you plug in to it.

.500 S&W Mag, 440gr bullet @ 1625fps: relative recoil # is "715"
12gauge, 1-3/8oz turkey load @ 1500fps: relative recoil # is "903"
12gauge, 1oz slug @ 1500fps: relative recoil # is "657"

(relative recoil number is Mass(gr) x Velocity(fps) / 1000)

So .500 Smith has a "middle of the road" recoil comapred to a shotgun. I've held that Handi-Rifle..it isn't light. I don't think the recoil would be all that horrible. Put a Pachmyr pad on it and call it a day.

PTK
July 31, 2008, 02:49 PM
I have one of the HandiRifles in 500 S&W. It is LESS THAN SIX POUNDS.

I tried all sorts of recoil pads, and the sights broke, TWICE, from recoil.

kingjoey
July 31, 2008, 03:06 PM
Hmmm, sounds like a project here :p Maybe we need to pick up a HandiRifle for T&E, I was joking about the brake initially but there might be some real need there :scrutiny:

JShirley
July 31, 2008, 03:33 PM
I grew up shooting a H&R Topper, Jr. in 20 gauge. Kicked like a mule- I was afraid to fire a 12 ga 870. Then I found recoil was much less! :D

The Handi-Rifles have traditionally been bargains. Hopefully, they'll remain so, but inflation...

R.W.Dale
July 31, 2008, 06:48 PM
From someone whose ACTUALLY fired both there is absolutely NO comparison between the recoil for a 12 topper and a 500mag handi. For christs sake you're lighting off over 40grs of H110 at 300wm pressure levels. This makes any 12 ga shell feel like 22 hornet by comparison. It's blatantly unsafe to even attempt to fire a 500 handi with a traditional rifle scope on it I had to fab up a scout scope mount.

feedthehogs
July 31, 2008, 08:14 PM
While I don't have a handi in 500S&W I do shoot a non ported pistol in 500S&W and the recoil to me is not bad at all. I enjoy shooting it quite a bit with full factory loads.

Having a handi in 44 rem mag and seeing the quality of the rifle, I suspect the site problem is due to the rifle quality, not so much the recoil.

Had the same problem with a Puma in 454 Casull. Round wasn't that bad in recoil, but it tore up that crappy rifle.

kingjoey
July 31, 2008, 08:45 PM
While I don't have a handi in 500S&W I do shoot a non ported pistol in 500S&W and the recoil to me is not bad at all. I enjoy shooting it quite a bit with full factory loads.

Having a handi in 44 rem mag and seeing the quality of the rifle, I suspect the site problem is due to the rifle quality, not so much the recoil.


The big difference is that you are also getting more velocity (and recoil) due to the longer barrel. I'd rather shoot a 500 S&W pistol than rifle

mr.trooper
August 1, 2008, 12:32 AM
Try shooting it in a handgun ya' pansy! :D

chute2thrill
August 1, 2008, 03:07 AM
Well I think I'm gonna go with something a little smaller than the .500 S&W... What would be a larger caliber (over .30) that you would recommend for the Handi rifle...

kingjoey
August 1, 2008, 03:19 AM
Well I think I'm gonna go with something a little smaller than the .500 S&W... What would be a larger caliber (over .30) that you would recommend for the Handi rifle...

The 45.70 isn't too bad. I am really thinking about the whole .500 S&W thing now, during all the product development we never even considered the KA-0450 being used on a single-shot. I guess we get tunnel vision sometimes :banghead: That'd be a cool, inexpensive demo gun too

chute2thrill
August 1, 2008, 04:32 AM
yes it would!!

OAKVILLE SHOOTER
August 1, 2008, 12:46 PM
The big difference is that you are also getting more velocity (and recoil) due to the longer barrel. I'd rather shoot a 500 S&W pistol than rifle

I am confused here. In a handgun, a longer barrel does give you more velocity, but usually, less felt recoil. Ex. a 2" 357 mag has a lot more recoil than a 4", which has more than a 6", etc with the same load.

Part of this may be due to the increased weight of the gun. If it is the extra weight, then maybe I see your point. PTK said that his Handi Rifle weighs less than 6 pounds. That is less than the 8 3/8" Model 500, and does not have the factory porting.

If the extra weight is not the contributing factor, then I think that the longer barrel of the rifle should dampen the recoil better than a handgun.

rondog
August 1, 2008, 01:41 PM
Recoil makes ya feel ALIVE!

kingjoey
August 1, 2008, 01:45 PM
A longer barrel is going to generate more actual recoil but usually less felt recoil. With a cartridge such as the 500 S&W there is enough powder to get extra velocity from a longer barrel, unlike cartridges like the 45ACP which don't perk up much when fired from a carbine/rifle. Although the gun is heavier and longer, it is going to get a lot of recoil due to the higher velocity of the round. If you accelerate a bullet to higher speed then the gun is going to accelerate proportionately more in the opposite direction.

OAKVILLE SHOOTER
August 1, 2008, 02:28 PM
A longer barrel is going to generate more actual recoil but usually less felt recoil. With a cartridge such as the 500 S&W there is enough powder to get extra velocity from a longer barrel, unlike cartridges like the 45ACP which don't perk up much when fired from a carbine/rifle. Although the gun is heavier and longer, it is going to get a lot of recoil due to the higher velocity of the round. If you accelerate a bullet to higher speed then the gun is going to accelerate proportionately more in the opposite direction.

Makes sense to me. Thanks for the explanation.

Macchina
August 1, 2008, 02:54 PM
I am confused here. In a handgun, a longer barrel does give you more velocity, but usually, less felt recoil. Ex. a 2" 357 mag has a lot more recoil than a 4", which has more than a 6", etc with the same load.

Part of this may be due to the increased weight of the gun. If it is the extra weight, then maybe I see your point. PTK said that his Handi Rifle weighs less than 6 pounds. That is less than the 8 3/8" Model 500, and does not have the factory porting.

If the extra weight is not the contributing factor, then I think that the longer barrel of the rifle should dampen the recoil better than a handgun.

I think that weight is an issue here. The longer barrel handguns generally have a larger frame as well (and more weight).

W.E.G.
August 1, 2008, 11:07 PM
Its big gimmick.

By the time you get the thing set up to be even remotely accurate, and tolerable to shoot, you will be into it for nearly (or more than!) the price of a .308 bolt gun. I rather doubt the .500 S&W will do anything that a .308 can't do - except maybe detach your retina if you let it catch you wrong.

Just my $0.02

only1asterisk
August 1, 2008, 11:23 PM
kingjoey,

A good demo would be to allow shooters to fire a Handi with your brake first and then shoot one without. You'd only be out $400 or so plus the cost of threading the barrel.

David

kingjoey
August 2, 2008, 03:24 AM
kingjoey,

A good demo would be to allow shooters to fire a Handi with your brake first and then shoot one without. You'd only be out $400 or so plus the cost of threading the barrel.

David


Exactly. We were going to order in two Alexander Arms 50BW uppers, but that'd cost us about $2500 to set up and 50BW ammo is impossible to find lately. That HandiRifle might be a good candidate for demo use for the exact reasons you specified. Hmmm...:cool:

Matt304
August 2, 2008, 11:45 AM
Krochus:

From someone whose ACTUALLY fired both there is absolutely NO comparison between the recoil for a 12 topper and a 500mag handi. For christs sake you're lighting off over 40grs of H110 at 300wm pressure levels. This makes any 12 ga shell feel like 22 hornet by comparison.

Right. :rolleyes:

What do pressure levels matter? They have nothing to do with recoil.

Let's see here. Hodgdon data for 500SW says 38.0gr maximum for H110, 440 grain bullet at 1,654FPS from a pistol. We'll assume 200FPS additional from a rifle. With your 40.0 grain amount of H110, being optimistic I'll say it achieves the 440gr at 1,900FPS.

Rifle weight was 6.5LBS.

So that's:

440gr
40gr powder
1,900FPS
6.5LB gun
Recoil = 48FT-LBS

Now look at a decent factory 3" slug; one which actually runs around upper 12GA pressures. The Lightfield 3" Commander IDS Plus is a good choice. :D

That load is listed as a 600 grain bullet, at 1,700FPS. I'll take a good guess and say it uses somewhere around 40 grains of powder, also.

But instead of shooting it from a very light gun, how about an 8LB gun to dampen the recoil just a little?

That would be:

600gr
40gr powder
1,700FPS
8LB gun
Recoil = 55FT-LBS

And if the 12GA weighed 6.5LBS, recoil from that load would be 68FT-LBS.

Now, what was this you were saying about there being no comparison between a 500 Handi and a 12GA? :neener:

Jason M
August 2, 2008, 12:08 PM
From someone whose ACTUALLY fired both there is absolutely NO comparison between the recoil for a 12 topper and a 500mag handi. For christs sake you're lighting off over 40grs of H110 at 300wm pressure levels. This makes any 12 ga shell feel like 22 hornet by comparison. It's blatantly unsafe to even attempt to fire a 500 handi with a traditional rifle scope on it I had to fab up a scout scope mount.


I don't have to shoot one to know what the recoil will be like. Simple math is all you need: mass x velocity. Recoil is a function of the ejected material (bullet and powder) and that is it. The energy of the bullet has nothing to do with recoil.

When I recalled the Handi-Rifle "wasn't light", I forgot it was the 12ga slug Handi-Rifle I held (not the .500SW rifle) and it's barrel looks like a NY city sewer main. It for sure is heavy.

I am positive that if you put a 12ga turkey load in a 12ga NEF single shot, it will have recoil so similar to that of the .500S&Wmag NEF rifle that blindfolded you could not tell the difference.

Arguments aside, I would agree that optics are probably not a good idea on that gun. Some nice iron sights would do me fine.

Jason M
August 2, 2008, 12:24 PM
By the time you get the thing set up to be even remotely accurate, and tolerable to shoot, you will be into it for nearly (or more than!) the price of a .308 bolt gun. I rather doubt the .500 S&W will do anything that a .308 can't do - except maybe detach your retina if you let it catch you wrong.


I've shot numerous heavy high-brass loads from an NEF 12ga single shot as well as some custom reloaded 2oz shotshells (after shooting 2oz of shot at 1100fps, .500mag would feel like a pellet gun) and my retinas are still attached.

Felt recoil is such an observer-relative matter. A buddy of mine thinks my .243 of all things is a little jabby, but I am not bothered at all. I also weight 200 pounds and he weighs 150. More body mass, more recoil absorption through inertial properties.

PTK
August 2, 2008, 01:30 PM
If it is the extra weight, then maybe I see your point. PTK said that his Handi Rifle weighs less than 6 pounds. That is less than the 8 3/8" Model 500, and does not have the factory porting.

If the extra weight is not the contributing factor, then I think that the longer barrel of the rifle should dampen the recoil better than a handgun.

Lower weight, higher velocity, no porting. Personal experience, IT HURTS.

chute2thrill
August 2, 2008, 02:56 PM
Thanks for all the info everyone... Kingjoey if you do decide to test that muzzle brake on a Handi let us know how it turns out.. I just might have to buy a brake from you...

Jason M
August 2, 2008, 03:19 PM
It is a rifle I would like to have, but the cost of the ammunition--even to reload it--is just too out there for me. They are about $50 or $60 per 20 or 25 count if I recall. And I have nothing around here to shoot with it... except maybe cars. :p

R.W.Dale
August 2, 2008, 04:00 PM
I don't have to shoot one to know what the recoil will be like. Simple math is all you need: mass x velocity. Recoil is a function of the ejected material (bullet and powder) and that is it. The energy of the bullet has nothing to do with recoil.

And NASA was really certain that a chunk of foam couldn't breach the space shuttle's carbon carbon leading edges. After all the computer models said it was impossible.

Pressure and powder burnrate has a lot to do with recoil. It's not just the mass of the bullet being accleated but the rate at which this acceleraton takes place. This is why 40+ grs of h110 is so rough on the shoulder. It's getting a 440grn bullet up to speed inside the bbl over a much much muchshorter period of time with over 60k psi pushing behind it than a shotgun shell does.

A Beechcraft 1900 and a top fuel dragster both go 300mph but which one do you think pulls more g's in acceleration.

But I honestly find it rather silly that someone who's experiance with a particular rifle only extends to the edge of a keyboard is arguing with someone with extensive range time with that same platform.

Jason M
August 2, 2008, 06:14 PM
And NASA was really certain that a chunk of foam couldn't breach the space shuttle's carbon carbon leading edges. After all the computer models said it was impossible./QUOTE]

This is an energy equation, not momentum (as used to calculate recoil). Anything moving fast enough can harm an object.

[QUOTE]A Beechcraft 1900 and a top fuel dragster both go 300mph but which one do you think pulls more g's in acceleration.

Irrelevant. I wasn't talking about projectile acceleration, only final velocity.

Now, if the .500 NEF and the 12ga NEF both have the same length barrels and both get their payloads up to the same velocity in that same distance, the acceleration was identical, so the impulse of force was the same, too. So, same (or similar, accounting for variables) recoil.

If the .500 NEF's barrel is shorter and they achieve identical velocity, then I will concede the .500's recoil will be sharper than the shotguns due to the higher impulse of force, but the total recoiling energy is still identical between the two. It just took one longer to get to it.

And I already stated that felt recoil is a shooter-relative argument. And I also said they would have the same recoil, not the same felt recoil. The energy calculation does not care what the impulse was, it is dealing in end-values, not acceleration equations.

And sometimes my keyboard kicks pretty good, too...

-Jason

R.W.Dale
August 2, 2008, 08:35 PM
If the .500 NEF's barrel is shorter and they achieve identical velocity, then I will concede the .500's recoil will be sharper than the shotguns due to the higher impulse of force, but the total recoiling energy is still identical between the two. It just took one longer to get to it.

your keyboard is going to let you down on this one.

In my chronographing 500S&W I noted that you only gain 100 to 150 fps over a 8" handgun bbl, this tells me that you're getting 95% of your velocity in the very first few inches of bbl. Cut a shotgun bbl down to 8" and you're going to loose a great deal more velocity than 150fps

Irrelevant. I wasn't talking about projectile acceleration, only final velocity.

Think about it. Recoil is a direct result of the bullets acceleration rate. The initial recoil pulse has everything to do with how violently the projectile gets kicked out of it's cartridge. Let me think 440grn bullet with 60k psi pushing it into motion and forcing it into the rifling vs a shotgun load getting gently persuaded down a unrifled bbl with about 10k psi doing the work. Recoil calculators are like ballistic calculators they're only good as a very loose guideline because there's so many factors that effect the end result thy don't take in into account

grendelbane
August 2, 2008, 10:02 PM
A muzzle brake designed for the .50 Beowulf should be even more effective when used on a .500 S&W rifle. This is because the .500 burns more powder, and at a higher pressure.

I love my Beowulf, but in similar length barrels, the .500 S&W is going to out perform it. More powder burning creates more gas, and higher pressure is going to create more of the muzzle braking action.

Matt304
August 3, 2008, 12:05 AM
Krochus, sorry bud, but you need to study up on your physics.

What is this secret formula you know about by the way, that ballisticians do not? Why do they feel pressures are not important when examining recoil estimates?

I can tell you why. It has to do with rise time of the pressure event, and also the laws of energy conservation. The differences in pressures (one high and one low) between two firearms firing at the same recoil level, simply put, cannot be felt by a human. This is because the impulse spike which accelerates the projectile is around 0.5ms or less. That is the time it takes for most of the energy to be transferred into the bullet. The rest of the time spent is simply time traveling down the barrel, at much lowered acceleration impulse. In a shotgun, the pressure event still looks the same, it would just have a lowered peak and appear wider. Let's just say that hypothetically, the shotgun's pressure impulse would grow to 1ms instead of 0.5ms in the high pressure rifle. That's 2x the length, which I know it is shorter than in reality. That means that at 1ms time after ignition in the lower pressure shotgun, 80-90% of the energy has been transferred into the projectile.

Now, do you remember that saying that goes something like, for every reaction, there is an equal and opposite reaction? Good. Now you can apply it. Since the majority of energy has been transferred into the bullet at that point, an essentially equal amount of the recoil energy (80-90%+) has thus been transferred back into the gun at that same point; around 1ms elapsed time.

Now, imagine that both guns have theoretically the same 50FT-LBS of recoil. The higher pressure caliber and lower pressure caliber both achieve the same rifle speed to make the 50FT-LBS recoil, as KE=1/2mv^2. So one simply accelerates slower for a longer time, while the other accelerates harder for less time. (This isn't even taking into account the heavier bullets used in shotguns, but equal weights!) Energy is energy and there is the conservation of energy, higher pressure calibers don't make "magical" energy that comes from nowhere to make this super-duper recoil which you claim occurs.

Now you must wonder, if both calibers are reaching the same rifle recoil speed, will the higher pressure cartridge which reaches that speed faster be able to be felt? That question leads back to our original problem with the human body and its ability to interpret extremely fast events. If the higher pressure cartridge gets the 6.5LB rifle to the estimated 22FPS in 0.5ms, and the shotgun gets it to 22FPS in 1ms, that is a difference of 0.5ms. A rifle traveling at 22FPS moves 0.132" in 1ms, and that's assuming the rifle is at its final speed from the instant of ignition, which it is obviously not, so distances moved would be even shorter than that. Using this same basis, the shotgun taking 1ms to release the majority of impulse moves 0.264" for that event to finish. (Remember that recoil you feel is actually deceleration on your shoulder, not acceleration. The acceleration occurs over such a short distance, that the rifle barely moves while accelerating. As said above, most of the acceleration is over at less than 1/4" travel, if that. The rest of the event is the gun slowing down from the full speed it has reached, which takes much longer than acceleration.) In essence, we can't feel acceleration differences, only deceleration differences.

Now are you honestly going to sit down and tell me that your involvement with such rifles allows you to feel a 1/10" acceleration difference over 0.5ms from the higher pressure cartridge? To say something of that nature would only prove foolish of yourself, as it is physically impossible for someone to process information that quickly.

I notice that you repeatedly like to point out others as having only keyboard experience towards your "big-bore" field experience, while it becomes more apparent by your posts of how much real experience you actually have with any such guns. I think that if you went out and fired guns that recoiled more than a 375HH, you would not place that Handi-rifle as high as you do on the recoil list.

R.W.Dale
August 3, 2008, 12:18 AM
I think that if you went out and fired guns that recoiled more than a 375HH, you would not place that Handi-rifle as high as you do on the recoil list.

Kinda like a 375 H&H and a 460 S&W magnum encore prohunter?????????? just possibly. The 460 actually sheared off a scope ring! Granted one of the 500 handi's I was shooting was cut down to a 16.5" carbine making it even lighter.

Now you must wonder, if both calibers are reaching the same rifle recoil speed, will the higher pressure cartridge which reaches that speed faster be able to be felt?

I believe so. As you allude to the recoil on a 500 isn't like the rolling push of a shotgun. It's a very fast hard and abrupt event almost like a shock, so abrupt that bulter creek scope caps will fly off the scope. Both the new S&W cartridges are very hard recoiling dudes when fired from a long gun, it blows my mind how much effort people who haven't fired either will put into arguing otherwise.

Matt304
August 3, 2008, 12:46 AM
As you allude to the recoil on a 500 isn't like the rolling push of a shotgun.

What I'm alluding is that the difference in their pressure events is impossible to distinguish, unless you are a bionic human living pressure transducer.

The whole "gentle push" theory from low-pressure guns is bogus. I will say it loud and clear. There is a thread here which covered this well. All that people mean when they say "it only shoves you, instead of kicks you", is that the gun isn't making the same total recoil energy, but making less, and thus the final gun recoil velocity is less. A .22 caliber at 250,000PSI making 50Ft-lbs of recoil is going to feel the same as a 10,000PSI 12GA at 50ft-lbs recoil, at the same weight. The acceleration is over by the time you have a chance to feel it move. As I said, the deceleration is what we feel, and that's controlled by our shoulder and butt pad, not the pressure of the cartridge.

Another aspect you are forgetting about is bolt face pressure. Your 500SW has a base size smaller than 12GA, so the 12GA can run at much lower pressure to still be producing the same amount of bolt-thrust/time.

SimpleIsGood229
August 3, 2008, 02:56 AM
FWIW, I'm thinking that due to higher pressure, kingjoey's break could be more effective on a .500 S&W than a .50 Beowulf. I could be completely wrong, though.

Matt304
August 3, 2008, 05:42 PM
FWIW, I'm thinking that due to higher pressure, kingjoey's break could be more effective on a .500 S&W than a .50 Beowulf. I could be completely wrong, though.

It would almost certainly work better on the 500SW. A brake is just a rocket nozzle, if you will. The more gas you flow through it, the more thrust energy it will make. Remember now, you can have high-pressure but still low-volume (22-250 for example), which equates to low return thrust. So pressure is not the key. Any cartridge which flows more gas volume than another will make more return thrust out of a brake, but at the same time typically making more recoil from the gun. In order to keep a brake effective, like rocket nozzles, the design must scale with the amount of powder being used. That is why 50BMG brakes are the biggest brakes of all.

If you enjoyed reading about "Handi Rifle .500 S&W Mag recoil.." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!