Sigs and HK's


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PawDaddy
July 31, 2008, 02:47 PM
I know that these are fine pistols. But, why are the so much more expensive than other brands? Are they really worth as much as they cost?

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SeanMTX
July 31, 2008, 02:49 PM
Someone put up a picture not too long ago with a series of metal blocks that were crafted into the top slide of a HK USP. It was pretty impressive to see them craft it...obviously resulting in a stronger, more labour intensive process.

Dobe
July 31, 2008, 03:33 PM
My next centerfire will be an HK 45.

I currently own three HK P7M8's. The quality is there, and it is a very impressive model. If the P7M8 is representative of the quality that went into the HK 45, I will be pleased.

The quality of a SIG is nice too, but most just don't seem to fit my hands very well.

Guns and more
July 31, 2008, 04:00 PM
Why is a Mercedes more costly than a Chevy?

PawDaddy
July 31, 2008, 04:14 PM
Why is a Mercedes more costly than a Chevy?


But, a Chevy can be just as dependable and last just as long as a Mercedes. So, you are saying that name and prestige has a lot to do with it?

MarcusWendt
July 31, 2008, 06:14 PM
As much as I would love the say that my beloved Sigs are THAT MUCH BETTER than XYZ brand, they aren't.... always. I do think they are superior to many, but not by 3 or 4 hundred dollars.

I think we pay a premium for the name.

Back when I first fell in love with Sig almost no one was buying them. I think I paid $400 for my first new Sig P226 9mm. I thought it was the *****, and I was right. :)

psyopspec
July 31, 2008, 06:26 PM
Are they really worth as much as they cost?
That's not really quantifiable, so it's up to you as a buyer. If you go plop down the money for one and feel like you got a good deal, then it was worth the cost. If you're asking if HK and SIG have quality workmanship, then yes. Shooter notwithstanding, are the products they make very accurate? Heck yes. And yeah, they'll last you a long time. So will a lot of other brands.


But, a Chevy can be just as dependable and last just as long as a Mercedes.
Therein lies the rub. Any major brand will get you from point A to point B. But if offered a chance to drive either, I'll take the Benz.

KingAirDriver
July 31, 2008, 06:27 PM
I also feel that you're paying for a name. I have a USP Compact and it's a nice gun, but I also have a Beretta 96 that goes bang every time, Glock 19 that goes bang every time, had an XDsc and Baby Eagle and they went bang every time... and all of those cost ~$200 or so less than my HK. I just decided one day that I wanted a Sig or an HK, and the USPc is what I settled on. It's whatever you want it to be... if you want one, get it! If you want a gun that will always shoot and look nice and cost a lot less, look at everything else on the shelves next to the Sigs and HKs. ;)

DougDubya
July 31, 2008, 07:20 PM
The SP2022 is lower in cost than the USP, but just as accurate, just as reliable, and has a much better trigger. It's also less expensive than the alloy and steel frames due to its polymer frame construction.

I can't show enough love for the SP2022 (and the metal-frame SIG family).

CountGlockula
July 31, 2008, 07:36 PM
Personally, I'd get a Sig over an Hk. Because I wouldn't spend anything over $500 on plastic...that's what Glocks are for.

Sig are great.

Thernlund
July 31, 2008, 07:38 PM
^^^^ Perfect. http://www.thehighroad.org/images/icons/icon14.gif

Although I do love my HKs too.


-T.

gudel
July 31, 2008, 07:43 PM
I have both HK and Sigs. The Sig costs more than the HK, being HK is imported the Sig is made in here.
I guess US labor costs more than the Germans, even with the dollar tanking.

Thernlund
July 31, 2008, 07:46 PM
Sig is made in here.

My Sigs say "Made in Germany". :confused:


-T.

AK103K
July 31, 2008, 07:58 PM
I've owned a number of HK's and still own a number of SIG's. I've also owned at least one of most other major makers guns, and often more than one of each. Of all of them, only three have NEVER had to be sent back to the factory for repair. Those three were Colt, HK, and SIG. Thats the starting point for me. The other, reliability and accuracy, right out of the box. In that case, HK and SIG excel.


But, a Chevy can be just as dependable and last just as long as a Mercedes.
Last where, the junk yard? :)

Mercedes awards high mileage grill badges for the front of their cars. I'm sure you've seen them, just in case you didnt know what they are for. Dont know of to many Chevys or Fords with "millions" of kilometers or miles on them, unless they have 10 wheels or more. ;)



"The current Mercedes-Benz High Mileage champ is Gregorios Sachinidis, a Greek taxi driver who holds the known record of more than 2.8 million miles in his 1976 Mercedes-Benz 240D. The latest Mercedes to be recognized for surpassing the one-million-mile mark is a 1970 280SE acquired for the Mercedes-Benz Museum Collection from its original owners, George and Luzstella Koschel of Orange County, Calif. The Koschels had bought the car new and drove it for 1,019,000 miles."


(http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/05/10/072401.html)

357wheelgunner
July 31, 2008, 08:20 PM
Merc's and Sigs are more expensive than Glocks and Chevys (Chevies?) because of craftsmanship. Any will do the job, but the Sig and Chevy had extra attention to detail and just feel better than plastic guns and economy cars.

I respect Glocks for how well they work, but can't stand the tupperwear feel and flexy plastic. I much prefer a Sig. I have no clue why someone would pay $900 for a plastic gun like an HK. I wonder how much higher HK's profit margin is over Sig, due to using plastic instead of metals...almost as much as I wonder why people pay so much for them. If I were to pay that much, I could get a quality 1911 that is just as reliable.

Merc's are way more durable than Chevy's, there is no comparrison. I understand that some people like NASCAR and Chevy's, but you can't argue that more work goes into the Merc, and they are just plain better built. Chevy's are good cars, for people who know how to do their own work and don't mind repairing their car. I've had 3 Chevy's, and will never buy another because of how flimsy they were. I could have gotten one Mercedes for the price of all 3 Chevy sedans, and I would probably still be driving it.

jlh26oo
July 31, 2008, 08:55 PM
For only a couple hundred dollars difference, I splurged for H.K.'s and Sigs. And I'd have done the same with what I drive, had the price difference for a Mercedes been similar (I.E. a few thousand instead of a few tens of thousands). But just like with automobiles, you aren't necessarily getting better reliability or higher quality for your money (depending what you are comparing). Sometimes they're just nicer. Whether that's worth the extra cost will be depend on the individual. Then again, some do feel Sigs and H.K.'s are more reliable than GLOCKS and Rugers for instance. I.M.O. most quality makes are all about equal in that regard, and closer (if not equal) in accuracy than many like to admit. So in that respect, maybe not "worth it", but they're worth it to me. And if I had more money, I'd probably drive a Volvo or something (and feel that was "worth it" too).

J.M.O. and Y.M.M.V.

USMCDK
July 31, 2008, 09:27 PM
I have both HK and Sigs. The Sig costs more than the HK, being HK is imported the Sig is made in here.

Okay let's dispell something here...

Sig and H&K are now made here in the USA SIG is made in Exeter NH I know cause I work here. and H&K is in Virginia the last time I checked. So with that said

+1 for me

Oh and for you therlund that has a sig marked "made in germany" What model is it? maybe it was a model that was made in germany back when!!! Some models are made here now as well as germany and others are still made in germany only and then sent here.

slustan83
July 31, 2008, 09:41 PM
My P2000 has all German proof marks and says "made in Germany". H&k is located in Virginia, but I'm almost positive they import them.

DougDubya
July 31, 2008, 10:24 PM
$589 ain't too much for a SP2022, and some places have them as low as $499.

Prince Yamato
July 31, 2008, 10:54 PM
You pay a premium for German engineering; it's considered the finest in the world.

But, a Chevy can be just as dependable and last just as long as a Mercedes. So, you are saying that name and prestige has a lot to do with it?

No way in heck a Chevy is better than a Mercedes. Not now, and probably not ever. When was the last time you heard someone say, "man, that Mercedes is such an unreliable piece of junk..." ? Now, that's been said about Chevy for decades. Same thing with Sig and HK. You could probably count the number of times on your fingers that someone has complained about their reliability or quality of workmanship. Germans simply make better guns.

rcellis
July 31, 2008, 11:51 PM
I only carry reliable guns - sometimes that's my Taurus 24/7c...

Fact is, my collection of guns is, well, a COLLECTION. I like HKs, SIGs, Colts, Berettas, Walthers, and Taurus. If I like how they work, and how they look, (and I have some free 'hobby' money) I buy it.

Thernlund
July 31, 2008, 11:57 PM
Oh and for you thernlund that has a sig marked "made in germany" What model is it?

http://208.106.149.12/pictures/p232_rollmark.jpg

Purchased brand new 12 days ago.

Two P220s and an SP2022 all say "Frame Made in Germany". So maybe the slide was machined here. But the P232 has no such marking except what you see above.


-T.

benderx4
August 1, 2008, 12:00 AM
Plain and simple - you get what you pay for. Not true in EVERY case, but I would argue true in THIS case. Give me a Sig 229 or HK USP9 over a Ruger SR9 or KelTec P9 anyday.

nelson133
August 1, 2008, 05:17 AM
I too own many different handguns including 1 HK and several Sigs. You can buy very reliable guns for less money. What you get for the increased price is better craftsmanship and ergonomics. Oh, and the "I own a brand X gun" bragging rights.
I have bought all but one of my Sigs used and the HK I got as part of a magazine promotion, so I don't have the big bucks tied up in mine. They are superior firearms, whether they are worth the added price point for you can only be answered by trying one out yourself.
I mean, I've got a Hi-Point C-9 that goes bang every time along with guns from Rock Island, Taurus, Rossi, Kel-Tec, etc. If they didn't work reliably they would be gone.

TAB
August 1, 2008, 05:53 AM
When was the last time you heard someone say, "man, that Mercedes is such an unreliable piece of junk..." ?

last week... a client of mine had to have his towed for the 4th time this year. This time the tranny would not come out of park, but its been in the shop for all kinds of electrical probs. Every thing from windows that won't role down, the auto AC controls not working.

Where as my 1984 1 ton ford work truck has almost 400k miles on it( of which I have put about 280k), of very, very heavy use. Its on its 2nd tranny ( auto), other then that the only non "maintance" part I have had to replace was the starter.


Maybe he is unlucky( kind of doubt that, MB and BMW are both famous for electrical probs), maybe I'm really lucky.

Disaster
August 1, 2008, 06:25 AM
You pay more for a couple reasons.

1. The name and the reputation.
2. The expensive manufacturing process with lots of machining operations.
3. The extra attention to details and refinement, like surface finish.

Does either of these make them more reliable? Being reliable is partly how they got their reputation. Having said that, there are a lot of less expensive guns that are uber reliable.

Speaking of Mercedes vs. Chevy it is similar. It costs more to make a Mercedes because there are generally more features and more craftsmanship involved. Does that make a Mercedes more reliable? Unfortunately, no. In fact, a few years ago, Mercedes was at the bottom of the barrel in luxury cars. They tried to include too much and didn't have time to check it all properly before releasing it for production. The C series went from one of the most reliable luxury cars to one of the least.

By the way, the million mile thing is a bit of a marketing gimmick. Once you get into the 100,000's of thousands of miles range you are getting into the territory of lots of things being replaced and serviced. Also, a uber high mileage capable engine is not necessarily going to be any more reliable in the short term. I know that sounds counterintuitive but it is true. Take it from an engineer who's worked on these products. The Japanese have been the best at figuring out how to design a super reliable product, over the real lifetime of ownership. The U.S. companies have made great strides over the last couple decades but haven't caught up. The luxury car manufacturers got their _____ handed to them and now, like the U.S. mfgrs, are playing catch up.

PawDaddy
August 1, 2008, 12:24 PM
Well, personally I have always prefered Ford's. But, my original question had more to do with reliability than craftmanship.

I realize that it costs more to make certain items because of the way they are manufactured. But, is it really worth the extra money. I am not asking is it worth it to you if you want it bad enough. I was asking is the total cost including materials and labor worth the price over a less expensive brand?

Deer Hunter
August 1, 2008, 12:27 PM
A thread dissing Chevys?

Me and my '95 chevy will just stay out of this one. I'm too busy not fixing it to reply. :)

Disaster
August 1, 2008, 12:39 PM
I realize that it costs more to make certain items because of the way they are manufactured. But, is it really worth the extra money.

Sometimes yes and sometimes no. For example, for all the dissing on these forums of cast parts, often they are as good, in a particular application as a forged part. Heck, a cast part can even be less prone to certain quality issues...like dimensional accuracy, then a machined component.

However, sometimes you get better performance or reliability for your money. Here is a car example. In the old days, they would just use the frame as the ground for the car. Many electrical components were grounded to the frame, in american cars with a wire held to the body with a self tapping screw. Quick and cheap...and not real durable. Rust and vibration would weaken the electrical connection and play havoc with it. Mercedes also used the body but they would have the electrical wires hooked to studs that were brazed to the body and then held on with locking nuts. This was considerably more expensive...but considerably more robust.

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