[Gearhead Jim]

Like most areas, our Walmart sells the 100 rd Value Pack 12 ga loads (3dr- 1 1/8 oz- #8)for $14.88 plus tax. We can chose between Winchester, Federal, or Remington.

Certainly, I would not expect these to pattern as well as the equivilant AA shells, but I wonder how much the difference is.

Has anyone done some serious patterning to see how they perform?
Any differences between the 3 brands?
Thanks.

[ysr_racer]

I shoot all three brands all the time, at least 500 a month.

The only difference I can see is the shot is VERY slightly softer 4% antimony compared to 6% in the premium shells and the hulls are not as reloadable.

I called federal and asked them. They said the same thing. For clays, if you don't reload, they're GREAT.

[kudu]

I've shot a few patterns with the federals vs. the winchesters and the federals shot overall tighter patterns in my gun. The difference wasn't great but the winchesters seemed to have lots of flyers and I noticed that the ones I shot just had the plastic sheet around the shot and not a true wad to cup the shot. Federals reload several times also so I tend to buy them when I don't have time to reload. Wimchesters had a bad habit of releasing their crimp after a few days and spilling shot in my range bags and my shooting pouch, reloads that is.

[Dave McCracken]

Great training and fun ammo. If you're in a shootoff at the Grand for HOA, there's better choices with harder shot and more uniform brisance.

HTH....

[HSMITH]

The Federal is the best of the lot by quite a bit. They are in fact pretty darn good shotshells. As much as I hate Remington shotshells in general I do admit that the promo Remmys are better than the Winchester promo loads. Step up to premium ammo and the line up changes a little........

[Mike Irwin]

I've been averaging 22/23 of 25 pretty consistently using Federal ValuePack No. 8 rounds to shoot wobble trap out of a variety of shotguns.

I'm happy.

[Ricky B]

I find that the Federals burn cleaner (and smell better) than the Winchesters. My Remington 1100 needs less cleaning with the Federals.

From the 16-yard line in trap, I don't think you're going to be able to tell much difference between any of these and premium ammo.

--Rick

[Lennyjoe]

Federals shoot fine out of my Winchester 1400.

[ysr_racer]

Lennyjoe, have you ever shot a Picacho Sporting Clays? I'll be there next Sunday. They're having their monthly shoot.

[Bix]

I shoot a lot of these myself (usually Federals), and I find they perform well. However, I occasionally encounter a problem that I wonder if anyone else has experienced:

Every now and then, a spent shell will "get stuck" in the chamber of my 870. I can always free it by either muscling the action, or tapping the butt against the ground, but is it a bit of an annoyance.

I've put a wide variety of ammunition through the firearm and never experienced this kind of stoppage with anything else. My suspicion is that the metal that the value pack shell are made of (aluminum?) is less malleable than the brass used in everything else I shoot. I suspect that the bases are expanding, but not contracting enough after ignition.

Anyone else run into this?

[HSMITH]

Bix, the case heads are steel on all of the promo ammo, and unnecessary. The case head on modern ammunition is there for the extractor to grab on and the primer to seat against and that is all. I don't think it is the case head swelling and sticking, I think it is the plastic of the hull being held by the chamber. I would bet that you can take that same hull that stuck and was hard to get out and rechamber it without resistance, I would also bet that it will pop right out the second time without resistance. The chamber on some of the recent 870's looks like it was cut by drunken monkeys armed with dremel tools, and can lead to the hangups like you have had. Take a good look at your chamber and see if it is rough, if it is you can polish it easily. Also keep in mind that the ribbed hulls are more prone to sticking in a rough chamber, that is exactly opposite of why they are ribbed but the ammo makers were counting on gun makers to turn out a decent chamber.

[Lennyjoe]

Lennyjoe, have you ever shot a Picacho Sporting Clays

No I havent. Give me an idea where its at and maybe I can drive up and give it a go. Would be fun to shoot some during the off season between dove hunts.

We just have the standard Skeet/Trap range here on base.

[Gary G23]

I've also had reliability problems with the promo shells in both pumps and autos.

[ysr_racer]

Lennyjoe

No I havent. Give me an idea where its at and maybe...


It's in Picacho AZ, By Picacho Peak. Just north of Tucson on I-10 near I-8. I'll be there this Sunday at 7:30. It should be fun.

brad

[Mannlicher]

I don't do much shotgunning these days, but when I do go out for practice, I use the Federal Promo #7 or #8. I have had no problems with them. I keep buying the stuff though, even though I don't shoot much of it. Hmmmmmmmmmm

[Lennyjoe]

Dude, I wish I could join but we are on 12 hour shifts for the next 7 days playing war games.

Wont have another day off till next Saturday.

Have fun this weekend.

[mikey357]

I agree with HSMITH...the Federal shells seem to do MUCH better for me than either the Winchester OR the Remington, at least in the "Wally-World" "Value Pack"...I even won a lil' money at "Skrap" using the 3-dram 7&1/2's after the last Skeet tournament I participated in...sure felt good about what I had paid for my ammo, versus the guys shooting the new AA's and STS's....FWIW....mikey357

[Dave McCracken]

Federal makes good stuff, so do the others. Use what works best in your particular shotgun for your mission.

Here's where patterning is a darn good idea. Run a few with each ammo at the distance you want to break targets at, pick the best(No holes, few thin spots, few major clumps) and get all you can buy of that. Be advised different lots will not have the consistency we've come to expect from the premium target stuff. But, by and large, you'll get good ammo that works in your shotgun.

Also, the differences will be much more obvious past, say, 25 yards. Close shots, even the cheapos do well.

[Opie]

I have tried the Wal- Mart Remington #7 shot, and #6 shot and it was getting stuck in the chambers of not 1, but all 3 of my remington 870's.

One is an almost new police magnum with maybe 500rds thru it, one was an express with about 1500 thru it, and the 3rd was a WELL USED express probably pushing 10k rounds. The Remington ammo was sticking in the chamber in all 3 guns. I actually traded one of the guns in because I thought it was the gun, this was before I had the same problems in my other 2 870's.

The Federal only did this once on me, but I only use the cheap ammo for practice.

All of my guns are 100% reliable with quality ammo.

[Grayrock]

Valupacks are $14.88 locally- works out to $3.73 a box. What they don't want you to know, is that "behind the counter" is the Winchester Super-X stuff for $3.47 a box. I stumbled on the Super-X looking for the Wichester White Box valupak in .45 ACP ($19.97/100rds.)

[seeker_two]

Grayrock is right. I fond that you can get the Winchester Super-Speed loads for FAR less than the promo price ($2.80/25).

Like the song says, "You Better Shop Around..." :D

[Gearhead Jim]

I forgot to write down the details, but my local Walmart did not have the cheap Super-X loads in my favorite combo: 3 dr- 1 1/8 oz- #8. What they had was something like a high velocity 1 oz load, or maybe even 7/8 oz. What choices have you found at your store?

[Grayrock]

Gearhead- I think what you saw were the Win. Super "SPEED" loads. IMHO, those are crap. They short you on the shot and fill up the space with powder. Seems to blow the patterns for me. Light load, high speed, no accuracy= cheap price. They have the same loads here and by the case are less than $3.00 a box. The Academy flyer this week had AA's for $3.99 a box, though. WOO HOO- bulk purchase here I come!!

[Gearhead Jim]

Thanks for the info!

[TrapperReady]

An interesting problem cropped up this afternoon while I was shooting SC and 5-stand with a buddy. He normally just hunts, and hadn't shot any clays aside from some hand-thrown stuff many years ago. The ammo he was using was Winchester valu-pack #8s from Wal-Mart.

We shot a round of SC (50 shells), and the went on to a couple rounds of 5-stand (25 per round). At the last couple stations in the second round of 5-stand, he started having extraction problems in his Ithaca O/U. It was taking more force to open and the shells appeared lightly stuck. He tried a few of my reloads (built mostly with Remington STS components) after the problem appeared, and they functioned just fine.

Since we were on a pretty tight schedule, we didn't spend much time troubleshooting the problem, but he was planning on going home and thoroughly cleaning his shotgun. Since he's still got nearly 100 shells left, we'll try some next time out and see if it becomes an issue again.

Any thoughts or comments?

[Dave McCracken]

Might be grunge buildup, and/or those value shells are almost off spec. Try it again with a clean shotgun and see.

[45auto]

I'm not familiar with the value loads.
Do they use steel instead of brass for the hull?

Perhaps, different expansion, contraction charateristics in the chamber?

[ysr_racer]

The ammo he was using was Winchester valu-pack #8s from Wal-Mart.

Win does that in my Browning also. Fed or Rem value pack does not.

[Grayrock]

In my Browning A-500 I have never had a problem, but have always used AA's. One season I loaned it to a friend who was shooting the cheapies and at the end of the day, when he returned my gun, he told me I might want to have my gun looked at as several jams occurred. HMMM. I've never had a problem since then either. Double HMMM.

[Gearhead Jim]

Recently I bought a 100 rd Value Pack each of Winchester, Federal, and Remington. 12 gauge. 3 dram, 1 1/8 oz #8. Here's a little comparison info:

When disected, all three brands had a regular shot cup, not wad/wrapper substitutes. The shot looked round to casual visual inspection on each brand.

Patterned four shots each today at 40 yds with the full choke (Briley) tube in my BSS.

Winchester AA: 78%
Winchester Value Pack: 67%
Federal Value Pack: 71%
(Didn't have time to pattern the Remington)

Hope this helps someone.....

[sm]

Though I have shot Win AA ...forever and reloaded almost exclusivley AA , I really dislike the newer promo load...that steel case is weird. My opinion of the win promo is it is like the win 22lr Expert ammo, made for selling not shooting. Even my really tacky reloads will extract,... those Wiinie promo have a tendencey to hang up.

I keep chambers clean with the 0000,or finest scotchbrite method , I really really suspect the ammo is off spec., haven't measured tho'

I have really good results with the Fed Multi pak ( MP 12 8 ) , IIRC in using the "plier test" the shot was harder than the other promo loads. I get real sciencetific sometimes. :)

Each gun, choke , has it's druthers.

[Dave McCracken]

I haven't been tabulating the feedback, but it looks like the Fed stuff is the best OA performaer among the promo fodder. Harder shot, etc, the case is not reloadable and that's where the savings are.

We may be splitting hairs here. I doubt much difference can be seen inside 25 yards.

[Poodleshooter]

Harder shot, etc, the case is not reloadable and that's where the savings are.
It's reloadable,even though it's a paper base wad. Just don't get them wet. 22grs of Green Dot (volume metered), Win209 and 1-1/8oz of Lawrence shot works fine for me, and runs about 1240-1260fps. :)
The $2.97 high speed Remington's have even better single piece hulls very similar to the STS or Nitro hulls, just with a 6pt crimp and maybe slightly worse plastic. Internal volume is the same though. The Winchester bulk pack hulls are polyformed (seperate plastic basewad), and usually have shot through crimps. I don't buy them for that reason.
Federal patterns best for me, possibly due to their wad designs. Their component wads throw the tightest patterns I've shot, and I have yet to see gas blow-by on a Federal wad column that I've shot.

[kudu]

I reload the federal promo shells also. Use about 19 grains of Clays powder, AA primer, and 1oz claybuster wads. Usually reload about 4 times and it gets put in the auto shotgun and gets left on the ground. I don't usually shoot AAs and Rem Premier shells through my auto unless its a tournament. Can get as many as 15-20 reloads out of the better hulls, granted they look pretty bad before I throw them away, but as long as they still shoot okay.....:scrutiny:

[sm]

Good point about the hulls, I think I paid $3.47 / $3.98 for a AA target loads at Sports Authority, running a special or something. I dunno bought a cart full of stuff that day, you know how it goes. Anyway for a bit more monies I get the use of hulls for 15 more reloads? Even the regular price of $ 4.70 is not bad to get hulls.

Poodleshooter and Kudu, yeah these reload fine, thanks for sharing recipes.
kudu...I dunno something about candle wax and electrical tape give a shell 'character'...also when "shooting two" with tacky loads with an unknown squad...boy are they impressed. :)

Yeah I know Dave will comment...but since he IS working on his skeet game...well...just an idea:)

[Dave McCracken]

73, since the Hull Elf gifts me with once fired STS hulls upon asking, the value packs have little value for me. Once my old AAs are used up as skeet ammo, it's STS for everything until something changes.

"Each gun, choke, has its druthers". Amen....

[Gearhead Jim]

So far, I don't shoot enough shotshells to justify reloading. That may change. Some of the posts I've seen, here and other threads, have suggested that the current AA hulls (not Value Pack or field loads) do not reload as well as the older AA. Is that true, or am I misunderstanding something?

[Dave McCracken]

Differnt maybe, worse, unlikely.

I had a number of the "Old" AAs bust on the first firing.

Current cost of reloading runs less than $2.80 a box.

Aha, you say, I can buy these value packs for but a dollar more.

Not apples to apples, my reloads compare to premium trap loads.And they're tailored to a specific mission.

Reloading saves little, it enables us to shoot more for the same cash outlay.

[sm]

I agree Dave, that $2.80 reload equates to the premium hard shot loads, over and over again. Plus you can tweak reloads a bit to fit gun chole conditions.

RE: hull elfs, Recall the guy that said he'd store those 20K or so of my AA hulls, in his third unused garage bay? Then I took more boxes over...He and the Mrs are building a new house, will have 5 garage bays, the fifth will have an attachment to a gun room...his wife volunteered me to move my hulls and his stuff. Said its my fault and I am a bad influence. [not me] and this new house she wants...and she is wanting him to have a "wing of his own". I think this means at least when he is in the doghouse, it will be a nice doghouse. :D
Took him 25 years to finally train her...oops

2 cars, 5 bays, didn't want the grandbaby getting wet , and she has projects of her own. "We're told old too carry stuff all over the house,stuff usually gets left in garage to get worked on, 3 bays give plenty o f piddlin' room". Ya know, that makes sense.

[Dave McCracken]

73, that thread about liking my MEC has some info on mission specific, tailored reloads.

And it looks like you've started your buddy on that slippery slope,heh,heh...

[Gearhead Jim]

Today I made some time to pattern the Remington Value Pack loads that got skipped last week. Using the same gun, procedure, and load
(3 drams- 1 1/8 oz- #8) as before, the Remingtons averaged 74%, which seems pretty good to me. On the other hand, shooting more patterns or using a different lot of each ammo, could change things. But for now the score is:

Winchester AA: 78%
Winchester Value Pack: 67%
Federal Value Pack: 71%
Remington Value Pack: 74%

[Dave McCracken]

So, Jim, if you use the Rempaks instead of AAs, you give up 4% of density to save how much? Sounds like a good tradeoff unless you're shooting a big match.

Actually, for general shooting all of them should do nicely. But KNOWING that is the reason for patterning.

[ysr_racer]

Gearhead Jim, thanks for the info.

Would you mind cutting open all 3 shells and weighing the shot? Maybe measure it too? How about comparing the wads?

Thanks for all your help.

brad

[Sisco]

I used the Win value packs for dove season, swore they didn't have any shot in them. That would at least explain why I missed so many! :D

[Gearhead Jim]

Brad- actually, I did think about counting the shot. But then I realised that what matters is the number of pellets in the pattern area, not the total number in the shell. (A good excuse not to count pellets) I calculated that 1 1/8 oz should have 461 pellets of #8, and used that number to do my percentages.
"That's my story and I'm sticking to it."

For 16 yard trap, the guys in my club do not agree on whether to use Full choke or Modified. I tried both, shot about the same. It seems like Modified would be better for those who try to break the bird immediately, Full would work for those who take a little more time.
And using the Value Pack loads would loosen up whatever choke is used.
You guys are the experts, what do you think?

[ysr_racer]

From :


http://www.gunshop.com/shotsize.htm




Size-------------------9-----------8-----------7-1/2
Inches.--------------.08---------.09----------.095
# per ounce---------585-------410-----------350


Jim, I was thinking more of weighing the shot charge in a powder scale and measuring a random sample with a caliper. I'll try it in a few weeks when I can get to a pawder scale.

[Sven]

Glad I found this thread - off to WalMart to pick up some ammo - probably start with the Federal.

[Dave McCracken]

Those Feds have lots of happy users, Sven. Do pattern a few for POI and see how and if your 870 "Likes" them.

[AJ Dual]

They've done alright by me. I've been able to shoot low 20's in trap with them.

I seemed to pick up about 2 clays a round when I switched to AA this season. Although I suspect that has more to do with velocity than the shot or the pattern. (AA's are certainly noticably harder recoiling than Fed. promos in my 870) I certainly shot better this leauge, picking up about 20 more birds than last year.

I suspect that the reason I'm doing better with the AA's is my shooting and not the shells, at least directly. My guess is that the extra velocity, and just perhaps, the harder shot, turns 1-2 clays that would have been a dusted loss with the promo loads, into a break with the AA's, when I did a bad job of getting them centered in the pattern.

So it's my wholly uneducated and intuitive guess that AA's will let you get lucky with a flyer more often since that flyer has just a bit more hardness and velocity than a promo. If you're competent (unlike me :D ) I doubt it makes a difference in trap at all.

BTW, Dave, what does it mean when you shoot better than you ever have when you pick up a shotgun for the first time in 6 months, then never repeat that performance for the rest of the season? :(

I shot back to back 23's (my personal best, such as it is) during the handicapping round, and most of my team had similar results, and we did so well we got bumped up a leauge (hint, it' classification has only one letter, if that tells you anything about what a pack of duffers we are.) where we promptly got spanked for the rest of the season.

[Dave McCracken]

Karma, Andrew, a fancy way of saying comeuppance. My version is missing 8 straight shots on dove after going one for one for 6 or 7, just enough to get me thinking I may do the Hat Trick that day.

Dove have my number, so do teal. At SC, I'm getting to where those wabbits get busted more than half the time. The Jumping Teal targets still taunt me.

But every now and then, things fall into place, the moon enters the 7th House,
the stars line up, and birds crash to earth while clay frisbees disintegrate. Then, darned if I can tell what I'm doing right...