[Nightcrawler]

How come the Hi Power never got out-sourced like the 1911 did? I mean, the patents have expired. You can buy a 1911 from Colt, Springfield, Kimber, Olympic, on and on. Every frickin' body makes 1911s. And if you don't want a factory gun, there's numerous aftermarket parts companies where you can have one built just for you.

So how come Caspian isn't making HP slides? Why doesn't Springfield have a 1911 clone? Why doesn't Kimber make an uglified Hi-Power with front cocking serrations?

Is there just not enough potential customers to justify this, or does FN still hold the rights to the design? (Doubt that, as Armscor is now making a Hi-Power clone.)

[WonderNine]

I don't really know what the story is on that other than to say maybe other gun companys don't think the HP is "uber" enough. Charles Daley is coming out with the HP clone made from FEG parts. FEG makes a clone. The Argentine military made a clone, the "FM" Hi-Power. Arcus makes a Hi-Power style gun that accepts the mags....

But there is no Kimber, Colt, S&W Hp...I dunno why.

[doctorhumbert]

I would love to have a forged frame LesBaer Hi-Power with polished blue finish, Novak sights, 40 lpi checkered frame, and thin spegel grips.

I think the truth is that there is probably much higher market demand (1/20 may be?) for the 1911 than BHP. Also the fact that there are lot more wondernine makers out there since the 1935 doesn't help BHP dominance either, not that BHP is inferior to Beretta/sig/Gluck.

Mean while, I would have to be content with this:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid67/pa6da09ffe6d4cce64135f20f0df5693d/fbc47e68.jpg

[WonderNine]

Oh boy, is that a 60's HP or just a later one with a ring hammer installed? Nice finish on that one! If it's a 60's I'd be afraid to use it. I wouldn't want to put a scratch on it. I noticed it has the pre-MKII style sights like my 82' does.

[doctorhumbert]

Yup 1969 T series. There is like 3 tiny scratches (I counted them). Believe or not, I am not keeping it stock, and gettting it customized.

[WonderNine]

Oh nooooo....:(

What are you going to do to it? I like everything about the early HP's over the new ones except the humped barrel. I prefer the spur hammer as well, but the ring hammer wouldn't bother me enough to change it.

[doctorhumbert]

Ha Ha, I am butchering an irreplaceable mint T-series hi power! I don't deserve her! I am not keeping it as a safe queen/collector piece, so I am going to have it teflon camo finished.:D :D :D :D

[Old Fuff]

Part of the reason is that the frame has some very thin walls that would be difficult to make by investment casting. Manufacturers could tool up to make frames from machined forgings, but this would be expensive. The P-35 Hi-Power is an excellent pistol, but the market has been diluted with the introduction of newer (but not necessarily better) designs. And yes, the Government Model .45 has more fans in this country then the Hi-Power.

[WonderNine]

LoL

My "HP customization" basically involves removing the mag safety before I even shoot it and then possibly changing the grips. Then it's customized. :D

It would be nice if browning offered a P-35 with checkering on the front and the back of the magwell, but I wouldn't do it to one that didn't already have it.

[doctorhumbert]

I am just kidding about the Camo finish, but I am getting Bo Mar sight installed and trigger job done by a 'professional'. Of course the mag disconnect is gone (shhh, don't tell my lawyer...), on the same day I got it.

[WonderNine]

My trigger was a little heavy when I first got it. Heavier than my MKIII was in fact, but I've put about 300 rounds through it now and it has lightened up a bit and is perfectly crisp. Not even the slightest hint of creep and the sear looks great. Right now I wouldn't want anybody to touch it anymore, even though I was considering it at first. I like the trigger the way it is right now and it will probably even lighten up some more.

It's been my experience that HP's give themselves trigger jobs after a few hundred rounds. How much have you shot yours?

[WonderNine]

Another thing doc, when they cut that slide to put those uber sights in, the resale of that gun is gonna go down the tubes. Or at least be lower than a normal T series.

[doctorhumbert]

I shot about 200 rounds. Dry fired many more with snap caps. It does not have what you would call a creep, but I can feel sear move smoothly across the hammer .5mm before it falls. It is not silky smooth like cusotm 1911 or Sig P210 trigger, but pretty decent. One thing I do not like about HP trigger is its rather long trigger take up for a SA auto, this 1911 and Sig P210 is much superior.

[doctorhumbert]

the resale of that gun is gonna go down the tubes

Resale? What Resale?:D

An artist conception photo of what my new customized Hi-Power would look like. Except for Bo Mar sights.
http://www.garthwaite.com/images/jg2.jpg

[WonderNine]

It does not have what you would call a creep, but I can feel sear move smoothly across the hammer .5mm before it falls.

That is exactly how my 1994 silver chromed MKIII was.

This one has zero creep. I noticed on my MKIII the sear was not perfectly straight either, this one is. There were a couple other minor detail about the MKIII that I didn't like compared to my current one, but nothing that affected its reliability. I agree about the trigger takeup, but IMO it also helps to make sure you don't shoot unless you really want to and I think it only has a very minor effect on rate of fire. I can fire my HP at practically full auto speed although the Beretta 92 is a little faster.

[CWL]

As I understand, the wonderful CZ-line of (duty) pistols are a direct rip-off of the BHP design.

Kinda hard to enforce patents back then with the commies.

[WonderNine]

An artist conception photo of what my new customized Hi-Power would look like. Except for Bo Mar sights.

Hmm, you could pick up a practical and it would look the same after custimization and would cost less to do because the finish is already how you want it. And you wouldn't have to butcher that T series.

[WonderNine]

As I understand, the wonderful CZ-line of (duty) pistols are a direct rip-off of the BHP design.

Somebody on Glocktalk said to me that the CZ :barf: is superior in every way to the BHP. I pressed him on it and he wouldn't elaborate. :D

[doctorhumbert]

you could pick up a practical

This
http://www.garthwaite.com/images/jg2.jpg
versus
http://www.gunsamerica.com/upload/976354566-1.jpg
Hey, those custom gunsmiths gotta make a living. It's good for the American economy.

[Old Fuff]

Before you have the frontstrap of a Hi-Power checkered notice how thin the metal is across the front. Checkering can substatially weaken it. A hard blow may actually dent it in enough to hang up magazines. This is not a common occurance, but it has happened. Many of the after-market Government Model frames have extra metal across the front to allow for checkering. Browning frames do not.

[doctorhumbert]

I agree. BHP may be checkred 40 lpi (very expensive), or stippled. I am leaving mine smooth. Not worth $200 checkering job or an ugly stippling.

[WonderNine]

I would pretty much have to get the grip stipled on a silver chromed HP if I were to use standard grip panels instead of the wrap around grips. But I like the factory wrap around grips very much (not the hogue aftermarkets though). I wouldn't get any stipling or checkering on a blued one though. The silver chromed is very slippery with just grip panels. Now imagine when your hands are sweaty.

[WonderNine]

I hate those factory prebans of the style shown in the second picture. They rattle alot.

[Bren]

Oooops, also guilty of butchering a 1965 "T" series.

I think the some of the problem is milling cost (American labor) . I would like to see one with a screw in bushing, titanium frame, Mag disc removed or on the frame. (like GP) with a GP model made again also.. :cool: Bren

[denfoote]

Patents can be renewed!! Make one slight change to the design and it can be protected!! FN has obvously kept up with it!!

Wondernine, to forstall any heart attack that you may be planning to have, my BHP, a 1986 "vigilante" model, is going to be kept stock, including the mag safety!!!

Doctorhumbert, you heritic!!!! If Steven Camp were still an LEO, I would have him arrest you!!! :D

[PCRCCW]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As I understand, the wonderful CZ-line of (duty) pistols are a direct rip-off of the BHP design.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK...the only thing CZ ripped off from the BHP was part of its over all lines and shape. Other than that the guns are anything but common in most regards. Youve got inside frame rails vs outside frame rails. Trad DA vs SA for trigger mechanism. Nothing is common between the two mechanically.


Somebody on Glocktalk said to me that the CZ is superior in every way to the BHP. I pressed him on it and he wouldn't elaborate.

Actually Ive heard this before also. What you have is an improved BHP in some peoples minds and Ill elaborate.

You have a little larger gun and makes the grip housing is thick enough to checker/stipple/what have you, the inside the frame rail setup is better for accuracy...when the slide gets hot and expands it actually tightens up in the frame..instead of going the other way (like the Sig 210), you have an SA capable Trad. DA trigger mechanism which by design is very smooth in both DA/SA, the internals in the trigger group...trigger bar etc are heavily made on the CZ and the lockup mechanism on the barrel is alot more sturdy than the original design of the BHP along with solid proven ramp design and angle.

I really cant say the CZ is an improvement over the BHP but the points above have been brought across the table on many occasions.

Everyone has their own opinions and beliefs about their guns....and I WILL attest to this one......BHP's, CZ's and 1911's have the history and character that gives their "esteemed followers" every right to stand and fight for their favorite gun.....all 3 of these guns are worthy of this.

Im NOT SAYING the CZ is better than the BHP. I love them both...Id love for CZ to make a BHP clone...I think it would be a bloody nice gun...but thats life.

BTW, the Argentine made FM gun was made under FN's license and patents while the patents were active...therefore they are not really clones.
Just a real HP made in another country.

Shoot well

[Old Fuff]

It's also a good idea to NOT stipple the frontstrap on a Browning unless the magazine well is supported by a very tight block. Again, notice how thin the the material is in this area, and you're going too pound on it with a hammer and punch?

I believe that someone makes a checkered wrap-around metal accessory that can be epoxied or soldered to the frontstrap, giving you what you want with far less chance of damaging the frame.

[doctorhumbert]

Bren, did you reblue the whole slide when you installed Novak sights?
If so who did it and how does it compare to original finish?

[Bren]

" Bren, did you reblue the whole slide when you installed Novak sights?
If so who did it and how does it compare to original finish?"

I gave it a higher polish and blued it in my neighbors tank. If I found a T series in mint cond or unfired, then I would leave it be but then I wouldn't be shooting it either! I use and shoot all my guns.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid34/pfdac7cd2dc5eb4eeb3ef703d7cc578ad/fd34dfa4.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid34/pd5f1400f8e6895e2814a2cbe2c27a13c/fd34e1ee.jpg


I also did the "Brenaissance Dragonpower" which was made out of odd ball parts. (frame slide barrel from different guns) This one has a serpent theme. Some people give me crap about it but I did it for *ME*,, I had a vison and it was a cheap project.


http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid34/p856d1636b756149678af67a244273031/fd324e64.jpg


As for CZ's, they are a off shoot of Browning design but have more parts and are more complicated for thet reason. I have both and like them both. BTW,,,, The BHP was the most widely used military pistol ever made. Bren

[doctorhumbert]

Wow, That's what I call a 'mirror' polish. Smooth, very smooth. I guessing you are not using a holster with it?

[Bren]

No, I don't need to carry these, they're just for shootin. I have carry guns. :evil:

If you do change sights and your sight man uses a jig that holds the gun by the rails (not to scratch the gun), cold blue should be fine for touching up the doves and he should do that anyway.

Both these also have C&S hammer and sears for a long lasting trigger job. The "T" series was very accurate the way it came from the factory and they are my favorite BHP closely followed by the Super accurate GP competition. Bren

[WonderNine]

Actually Ive heard this before also. What you have is an improved BHP in some peoples minds and Ill elaborate.

You have a little larger gun and makes the grip housing is thick enough to checker/stipple/what have you, the inside the frame rail setup is better for accuracy...when the slide gets hot and expands it actually tightens up in the frame..instead of going the other way (like the Sig 210), you have an SA capable Trad. DA trigger mechanism which by design is very smooth in both DA/SA, the internals in the trigger group...trigger bar etc are heavily made on the CZ and the lockup mechanism on the barrel is alot more sturdy than the original design of the BHP along with solid proven ramp design and angle.

I really cant say the CZ is an improvement over the BHP but the points above have been brought across the table on many occasions.

I compared a CZ75 SA and a Browning Hi-Power standard side by side a couple weeks ago. The CZ75 looks like a friggin Ruger compared to the HP. The grip angle is also weird IMO and seems to make the gun want to slide up and down in my hand. The grip seems almost as wide as a Beretta 92. There's quite a size difference between a BHP and a CZ. The CZ's mag release stuck out and I also noticed a plastic trigger.

Personally I'd rather have the BHP's outside frame rails for reliability sakes. And most of the comments I've heard from people who own both is that their BHP is more accurate. I've shot many hundreds of rounds at a time through my HP and have not noticed a significant loss of accuracy as it heats up. And one other thing, it never really gets THAT hot no matter how I shoot it. The CZ seems to be designed like a heat trap.

The CZ75SA's trigger was extremely creepy. I was taken by surprise by this. I agree that the barrel lockup is probably the weakest point of the HP. As you know FEG even redesigned the barrel lockup on their PJK-P9M clone. I've never had a problem, but you do hear about the occasional barrel locking lug breaking on a HP. I don't like the big block safety of the CZ's. And it has no stipling on the safety either like HP's do.

The ramp angle is not an issue on the current MKIII's as they've gone to a throated ramp. The BHP also has a wider ejection port than the CZ. It is more reliable and jams are easier to clear. Not that I've ever had a jam in a BHP in 3,000 rounds fired :D . Only problem I've EVER had was one time a bullet nosedived on the barrel hump of my pre-MKII using a cheap preban mag that normally runs flawless. I simply pushed the slide forward and it chambered. Also the recoil spring was in need of being replaced it was getting weak.

As Byron Quick once said; "I think that DA/SA pistols are the perfect solution in search of a problem." :D

[doctorhumbert]

CZ=Commie
HP=John Moses Browning

[WonderNine]

With the right mags the HP holds MORE ammo than the CZ as well. I prefer 15 round Mec-Gars for carry and the 17 round KRD mags are a good value for range mags and IMO are actually reliable enough for carry.

Of course if we're talking factory mags its 13+1 for the HP and 15 or 16+1 for the CZ.

[Nightcrawler]

How did my thread, asking why nobody but FN and Armscor is making Hi-Powers anymore, turn in a big festival of bashing CZs? Who brought up CZs in the first place?

It doesn't have anything to do with my question. CZs aren't Hi-Powers. They have the Browning link-up system, but then, so do half the pistols in the world.

CZs are "commie"? Oh, that's solid reasoning right there. Someone once told me that (referencing my CZ-97) then mentioned his Para-Ordnance.

Canada is more socialist than the Czeck Republic. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Belgium is too.

But that's neither here nor there.

[WonderNine]

Sorry for hijacking your thread NC, but I think your question was already answered anyways???

[doctorhumbert]

Yeah, most of our replies had nothing to do with your questions, but who wouldn't mind nice pictures of T-series Hi-Powers.

I am not bashing CZ. CZs are better than most higher priced handguns. Commies made some good guns, or at least made some good copies. I still see no reason to buy CZ, when there is Hi-Power.

[WonderNine]

I agree, I see no benefits over the CZ compared to a HP and I actually see a few drawbacks mentioned above. A NIB CZ for $300 or a SA for slightly over $400 is hard to beat though in that price point. Still I'd buy a used HP instead anyday of the week.

[Bren]

I like them both and will not pit them against each other. :fire:

Nightcrawler, sorry your thread got "highjacked" But look at the bright side, these guys are keeping it alive.

Cost and sales is the reason. Bren

[Dr.Rob]

My former commie opressed Hungarian pals sure are making a nice HP clone, in fact, Charles Daley is going to be relabeling them soon. Expect a mark up.

Other companies/mfg's:

Mauser (also an FEG according to some)
Inglis (Canada)
FN Belgium
FM Argentina
IMI (Isreali HP's are notoriously abused when the show up on the market, scuffed, dinged, etc but they all go bang.)
Browning (as in made in America or Japan)

I'm SURE I'm missing others. Surprised Norinco didn't try to make one.

Nightcrawler, just based on a "gut feeling" there are so many surplus HP's available, more "clones" like FEG had to up their marketing to appear more slick to compete against the newer wondernines.

A springfield armory HP? Looke what they did to the HS-2000, slapped a new label on it and doubled the price.

Though a BHP made by Colt, that would be interesting to me.

[Harold Mayo]

Dr. Rob:

IMI doesn't make the Israeli hi-powers that I believe you're talking about. Those are FN hi-powers made FOR the Israelis. I'm not sure if IMI makes a hi-power clone at all...is the Arcus from IMI or another company?

Springfield Armory actually had some prototype hi-powers done at one time. One was for sale on GunsAmerica not long ago. Rumor had it that it was an FEG-manufactured gun with a Springfield logo. If it had been reasonably-priced, I would have considered it, but it was at something like $1600. Don't know if it ever sold.

Overall, there just isn't a market for hi-powers like 1911s. I wish that someone like Les Baer or Caspian would at least manufacture slides and frames for hi-powers, though.

[Dr.Rob]

Arcus is Bulgarian Arms works, one I forgot off the list.

I was sure IMI made them locally.

The point is there are a LOT of surplus HP's on the market, and even a 'cheap' one like a painted Israeli one still work.

In the face of hicap wonder nines its a little lost. But its not going to be a bargain for long if word gets out. Ala HS -2000, FEG Pjk9HP (which I have been telling you all to buy for years!)

Maybe you missed the window on an inexpensive one, but like I've said before the CD model needs to be a LOT slicker than a standard to raise the price $200-$250.

And thats still no guarantee that FEG will NOT still sell the FEG labeled one here, or through CDNN or whatever.

I don't care if Wilson builds one or not. Why take a perfectly capable pistol and make it cost 3 times as much because it has a fancy logo?

[Nightcrawler]

I don't care if Wilson builds one or not. Why take a perfectly capable pistol and make it cost 3 times as much because it has a fancy logo?

*shrug* They do it with 1911s all the time.

And Glocks somehow became $600.00 pistols.

Strange days indeed.

[PCRCCW]

Sorry for getting sidetracked on the thread....How does that happen anyway? :rolleyes:

Last note.....

" The CZ75 looks like a friggin Ruger compared to the HP."

Wondernine...my STI looks like a friggin Ruger compared to your HP....nice gun.

"The grip angle is also weird IMO and seems to make the gun want to slide up and down in my hand."

Strange, most who shoot both say they have the same grip angle..but the CZ is bigger....

"The grip seems almost as wide as a Beretta 92. There's quite a size difference between a BHP and a CZ."

Not that much bigger....come one now.

"Personally I'd rather have the BHP's outside frame rails for reliability sakes. And most of the comments I've heard from people who own both is that their BHP is more accurate. I've shot many hundreds of rounds at a time through my HP and have not noticed a significant loss of accuracy as it heats up. And one other thing, it never really gets THAT hot no matter how I shoot it. The CZ seems to be designed like a heat trap."

Fair enough I guess. I hear both also from those who shoot both on a regular basis.....In general both are very accurate. The CZ's design for the rails doesnt inhibit ANYTHING when it gets hot. Same design used on the SIG 210....but they arent that accurate/reliable either :D Sorry, couldnt resist.

"The CZ75SA's trigger was extremely creepy. I was taken by surprise by this."

CZUSA and everyone else who has them HATE the plastic trigger...its a first for CZ and does add to the creepyness...AGREED!

"I don't like the big block safety of the CZ's."

On the SA you have been using in your comparison..it has the CZ IPSC safety...not the typical OEM 75 safety...yould like it better.

"As Byron Quick once said; "I think that DA/SA pistols are the perfect solution in search of a problem." "

Hey...to each his own......Shoot well

[WonderNine]

Strange, most who shoot both say they have the same grip angle..but the CZ is bigger....

The CZ has a bend in the middle of the grip which seemed to want to make it slide up and down in the palm of my hand.

As far as the plastic trigger, awe well, plastic parts can be replaced. The plastic magazine disconnect safety needs to be removed on a HP to get a decent trigger and the plastic trigger on the new CZ's needs to be replaced with a metal one. Well what is that then another $50 to the price of the CZ I suppose. The only plastic on the Browning is the mag safety (bye bye right away) and um, the sights.

Not that much bigger....come one now.

The grip is wider, the frame is bigger and the slide is wider and it's heavier. Might as well have a Beretta 92.