Which Could Handle A Steady Diet of +Ps Longer?


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Texasred
August 1, 2008, 08:25 PM
I have a Glock 30 that I am using to carry. But it is too thick to carry all the time and I really need to pick up a Hi-cap 9mm.

I want something that I can Practice with on a heavy weekly basis. I want 9mm because I know overall the ammo is cheaper and I reload anyways. So here the selection is:

1. Beretta 92
2. Beretta 90-Two
3. Glock 17
4. Glock 19
5. Sig 226
6. HK USP
7. HK P2000

Which gun would theoritcally last longer and handle the +Ps and even +P+s.
I have another Glock in 10mm but this choice will be my new carry and shoot very often.

In all honest I will get a Glock 17 eventually, but will it still beat the others in handling extra pressures?

But I think the truth is I would like to try a new platform. Can the alloy frames of the Sig or the Beretta handle steady diet of heavy duty use. From what I have heard the Sig can but the Beretta can't.

Don't know a single thing about HKs, so can you guys help me out?

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357wheelgunner
August 1, 2008, 09:19 PM
I'd vote for the G17 and the P226. They're both tried and true designs, and have been abused for many decades now with much success.

HKs are basically Glocks, made out of nicer plastic and with inconsistent triggers and a high bore axis. I would never pay that much for a plastic gun.

If you want the Glock 17, get one. I have fond memories of carrying a Glock 31 (same size as G17, in .357sig) daily. They make great carry guns in a Blade-Tech IWB holster...

10-Ring
August 1, 2008, 11:23 PM
Per the owner's manual -- go w/ the HK's if you're shooting a steady diet of +Ps ;)

bwavec
August 1, 2008, 11:50 PM
The HK USP is one of the few pistols designed to handle regular use of +P and +P+ ammo. You will accelerate the wear and tear on the pistol, but it is designed to handle the extra abuse safely.

Deer Hunter
August 1, 2008, 11:53 PM
All of them.

You'll run out of money before you shake a gun to death with commercial "+P" ammo.

memphisjim
August 1, 2008, 11:58 PM
yeah i think any will take more than you will shoot
the glock will shoot longest without cleaning though

Texasred
August 2, 2008, 09:05 AM
Can the alloy frame of the Sig reach into the 100,000s of rounds?

skywarp_
August 2, 2008, 09:41 AM
The european guns are proofed to the higher pressures of european 9mm ammo.


you wont make these things flinch with our lame +p

seeker_two
August 2, 2008, 03:18 PM
All of the above....but I don't see any advantage to using +P+ ammo....stick with +p or standard pressure and feel comfortable with your choice....

...btw, most of the choices you've listed will have frames as thick as your Glock 30. Ever consider a single-stack 9mm or .45ACP as your alternative carry gun?....

rcmodel
August 2, 2008, 03:20 PM
If you need +P+ 9mm, you just need a bigger gun then a 9mm.

rcmodel

mr.trooper
August 2, 2008, 05:19 PM
The HK USP is one of the few pistols designed to handle regular use of +P and +P+ ammo. You will accelerate the wear and tear on the pistol, but it is designed to handle the extra abuse safely.

+P sure, but i believe the obscenely expensive MK 23 is the only one that is factory rated for +P+ ammo.

Deer Hunter
August 2, 2008, 05:29 PM
Now when we are talking about +P+, we're talking about submachinegun ammo, right?

Because "+P" is mostly a marketing term. Squeezing more power out of traditional rounds is simply logical from a self-defense standpoint.

+P+ is a term I would give submachinegun ammo. I've heard of ammo to be used for the UZI submachinegun blowing up glocks. But then again, on the internet you hear of a lot of things blowing up glocks.

strat81
August 2, 2008, 05:41 PM
+P is an actual SAAMI rating.

+P+ exceeds SAAMI specs and can be 10 psi/cup over or 2,000 over.

Higher pressure does not necessarily mean more velocity. Pressure also occurs over a span of time. Some rounds/powders have a quick spike of high pressure while others draw that pressure out longer.



As to the original question... have you considered a CZ-75 variant, either from CZ, Magnum Research, or Armalite? What about a S&W 5900-series pistol? All steel is an enticing choice.

Given your choices, I'd go with the Beretta 92 or Glock 17. The Glock is a good choice due to the amount of aftermarket support for the gun.

tblt
August 2, 2008, 05:42 PM
Sig or HK

Clean97GTI
August 2, 2008, 06:44 PM
The USP is rated for it from the factory.

The next one I'd go with would be the Beretta for its steel frame followed by the Sig with its aluminum alloy frame.

coming in last would be the Glocks which I'd be perfectly happy to shoot with some +p ammo. ;)
then again the Berettas did start breaking after only a few thousands rounds with some very high pressure US Army ball ammo but IIRC, that ammo was wildly over pressure compared to the NATO spec ammo intended for the Berettas.

jocko
August 2, 2008, 06:48 PM
who can afford to shoot +P+ ammo other than to check for reliability and then for carry purposes. Makes no sense to me to shoot that ammo for paper punching purposes

VegasOPM
August 2, 2008, 07:24 PM
I've shot the Hirtenberger sub gun ammo out of my Glock 17- that stuff is pushing over 40K on the SAAMI scale. The base of the brass was bulged a bit, but the gun didn't seem to mind.

It wasn't on purpose, as my buddy mixed up my ammo with the stuff for his MP-5.:what:

Texasred
August 2, 2008, 10:07 PM
Well I have REALLY considered the CZ SP 01.
Man this things looks and sounds really good.
But my problem is that I have this Perception that only polymer guns can handle serious use.

I'm sorry oldtimers and traditionalists, but these torture test have really convinced me lately.

I don't even trust ALLOY frames. I have this feeling that the alluminum will give out over the other metal that it is mixed with!

Texasred
August 2, 2008, 10:08 PM
Yes I love my Glock 30, but I would really like something that is a little slimmer and more affordable on ammunition.

Texasred
August 2, 2008, 10:10 PM
That is why I pick the 9mm.

Now I am off to the box o truth!

atblis
August 2, 2008, 10:57 PM
Per the owner's manual -- go w/ the HK's if you're shooting a steady diet of +Ps
Because they write it in their manual it must be true. :rolleyes: They're not even the most durable when shooting regular 9x19.

+P won't do a thing to any robust 9x19.

I'd have to vote for Glock. Those things can take a pounding. This has been well noted on the rental ranges.

benderx4
August 2, 2008, 10:57 PM
Sig 229 or HK USP9

SimpleIsGood229
August 3, 2008, 03:19 AM
Texasred,

Have you considered the Glock 36? It's basically a single-stack G30.

strat81
August 3, 2008, 02:12 PM
I wouldn't worry about an all-steel gun not holding up as well as polymer. Look at all of the 1911s in use in IDPA and other games... those guns seen a ton of rounds through them and the steel 1911 frames hold up.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Beretta 92 frames are aluminum alloy, not steel.

The SP-01 is supposedly designed around hot, NATO-spec ammunition. I just got one and the recoil spring and mainspring are STOUT.

As for polymer lasting longer, we won't know for another 70-80 years. But, consider how many old K-frames, Colts, and 1911s are running around out there.

I'd be more concerned about parts availability and warranty support than steel vs. alloy vs. polymer. Of course, if you're firing a lot of how loads, be prepared to change springs regularly.

usp9
August 3, 2008, 02:26 PM
HKs are basically Glocks, made out of nicer plastic and with inconsistent triggers and a high bore axis. I would never pay that much for a plastic gun.


I got a good chuckle out of that, thanks. :rolleyes:

My USP manual says +P and +P+ is OK, but wear will be accellerated. This is true of any pistol of course.

The Berettas are tested and tortured with only military ammo, but I'm not sure what the manual says. They are very robust guns...

Older Kahrs were Rated +P+ from the factory, at least the manual said so. I think they recommend staying at +P or lower today.

Now when we are talking about +P+, we're talking about submachinegun ammo, right?


Pretty much yes, but some LE agencies use it as their standard handgun load. Personally I've only fired +P+ a limited amount and found it messed with my follow-on shot speed alot. I don't use it any more.

berettashotgun
August 3, 2008, 02:46 PM
I want 9mm because I know overall the ammo is cheaper and I reload anyways.
Mister, You just lost any chance of warranty - right there!
I'll play devils advocate here
Let me get this straight,
you want to kill a pistol by overfeeding it,
you want an objective opinion for clarity in your decision of make of said pistol,
BUT YOU RELOAD +P+ ammo.
Some one posted to "get another caliber" if you run +P+ ammo, I'll agree.
I don't see how using +P+ RELOADS

is going to be cheaper..............in the long run.

buenhec
August 3, 2008, 03:21 PM
I have probably shot 2k rounds of 9mm +P in my Sig 229, never had a problem. Gun is as tight as ever.

jonboynumba1
August 3, 2008, 05:33 PM
I have a few buds that do a LOT of shooting for a living...one trains DOE security personel all over the country....one is one of the training officers for a large metro police dep. here in AL. (he shoots matches and goes to every school/class they will send him to and has a laundry list of credentials to prove it.) The 9mm GLOCKs will often have an accuacy drop around the 40-50K (you read me right FORTY to FiFT THOUSAND) round mark. The usually start to really suffer usable accuacy issues at 80-100K rounds (that is where the barrel is just flat wore arse out) good usable accuracy generally requires replacing the barrel with a new one. The DOE guy says he's done this at least twice he can recall on some of his older GLOCK 9's and they still shoot well enough he hasn't ever replaced them. Most of those type of guys will have several firearms and teach with what a given security force/group are using.

The hexagonal rifling seems to maintain usable accuracy longer than traditional rifling does...most 1911's with GI barrels seem to have around 2-3K rounds of best accuracy life with stainless barrels doubling or tripling thatfrom what I have seen...that is not to say they are useless after that...just past their prime accuracy point. I believe the Beretta and S&W semis of yesteryear where considered to have a service-life of 30-40k rounds...much more than the average civilian shooter will ever likely puit through one. I shoot a lot for a civy and probably average 2-4K rounds a year centerfire pistol depending on the year and my work schedule. so it would take me more than a decade to wearout even a S&W or Beretta (and again a new barel (and locking block in the Beretta...I think they consider that a change every 10K part? I can ask a bud again...he's a cert Armorer from ALL the above)

With regular maintenace and swapping parts as they wear there's really no telling how long you "could" keep a gun running well. If I get 10 years out of it it's paid for itself anyway...The GLOCK will probably be almost broken in by then-LOL ;)

And of course 1911's are like chevy trucks...they are never worn out they just need new parts every 50-100K miles...a good excuse to trick them out a bit if ever there was one! ;)

+P in 9mm is not really all that stressfull anyway when you compare it to the same guns chambered in .40 on the same frame/actions...so +P is not really an issue IMHO

Texasred
August 3, 2008, 09:40 PM
Sorry if I upset you Berettashotgun, but I am just looking for something stout and hi capacity that offers a little more capacity with a little less size.
I know what a .45 is and I know what a 9mm is and I don't shoot exclusive handloads but this is just an option for me because I don't reload as often as I should.
Time is more an issue than anything and quality 9mm ammuntion is easy to find from Academy, Walmart, and every gun store on earth.

I figure if I can afford more ammo, then I can easily overpass the power factor with placement through practice.

Texasred
August 3, 2008, 09:46 PM
Hey jonboy, I think your right, I'll just get a Glock and I really appreciate the advice.

But one thing I don't understand is the .40s supposed ability to wear the gun out faster.

My speer reloading manual says the 40 has, if I remember correctly, 35,000 psi. So where does the extra wear come from? The slightly heavier recoil?

mr.trooper
August 3, 2008, 10:06 PM
But my problem is that I have this Perception that only polymer guns can handle serious use.

WOW.... what makes you think that plastic is stronger than heat treated steel?

jonboynumba1
August 3, 2008, 10:34 PM
I think a G17 or 19 (wish the 19 fit my hand better) is hard to beat. I carry a G22 but I've owned the 17,19,22 (x3),23, and 21 and shot most of the others. 9mm is eaier on the shooter when you start shooting large volumes of ammo...many of the officers that carry G22's and go through the FBI 3 day class (think it's 1500 rounds?) have bought or borrowed 17's from us for this reason (also cheaper when you are going through that much ammo in 3 days) I have noticed MANY prof. instructors carry G19's as well. My best bud has carried an OLD G19 for years and it was used when he bought it...still performs like a new one. The 17 was my first GLOCK and is still one of my favorite models....very easy to shoot fast and well with. I don't think a gun has to be plastic to be rugged....it just has to be a GLOCK ;) But in all seriousness I put 4K+ rounds through my 1911 last year and it still shoots like a top....unfortunately I sold it in a moment of extreme stupidity. So I guess I get to build a new one now! :)

I shoot (carry ammo wise) speer 124gr +P in 9mm and Corbon 135gr in .40 even the factory ball in 165 or 180 kicks a bit more in .40 than the +P 9 does in the 17 vs ball in the G22...not a huge difference but you can feel it...I guess it's the heavier bullet...dunno (don't notice much difference in the carry ammo...don't shoot a whole lot of it though ($$$$-LOL)...haven't done the math on the percieved recoil. I had a GF that could shoot the 9 in a GLOCK or XD but didn't like the 40...for her it was more noticable I guess....oddly enough she equally disliked the bosses Browning HP practical in 9mm...said it kicked too hard to....so I guess it depends on the gun and person more than anything else. If you buy a used one get one with the angled corner/breechface opening. The old 17's are bad about occassionally spitting brass in your face or top of your head when you get them really heated up...forgot to replace shooting glasses and caught some brass in the eye one day from that...of course having the proper safety gear on would have made it a non-issue...REALLY hurt....really scarred me to (never shot without glasses EVER every since).

Enjoy your gun whatever you get and shoot safe! ;)

burningsquirrels
August 4, 2008, 12:10 AM
if you want to beat on the gun with +P+... then get a glock with a KKM match barrel. open gun folks use it to shoot major power factor 9mm in uspsa competition all the time... typically 147 grains near or at 1200 fps out of the g34's barrel.

atblis
August 4, 2008, 02:07 PM
WOW.... what makes you think that plastic is stronger than heat treated steel?
It would seem counter intuitive, but in actuality plastic is better in certain situations.

You want durability over many many repeated cycles. Not simply strength. Figure in that the frame really doesn't do that much. In some ways it's just kinda along for the ride. Sorta similar to the recievers on ARs.

My best guess is that plastic has a cushioning effect, and isn't subject to some of the fatigue and other issues that arise with metals due to repeated loadings, impacts, stresses, etc. etc.

skers69
August 4, 2008, 07:45 PM
Both my Glock 26 and CZ PCR can shoot +P and +P+. For me I only have +P ammo for SD/HD. I shoot the cheap regular pressure rounds for most of my range time. I have spent alot of time and money testing various ammo and have now come to the conculsion that Gold Dot 124 +P works best for my SD/HD needs. For me I guess I do not want to spend the extra money on the high pressure stuff all the time when I can take that extra money and get more rounds of the cheap stuff. Do what is best for you.

atblis
August 4, 2008, 08:05 PM
I do not want to spend the extra money on the high pressure stuff all the time when I can take that extra money and get more rounds of the cheap stuff. Do what is best for you.
Guess what, 9x19 +P is pretty much nothing more than a marketing scam. The Europeans seem to think the 9mm Parabellum is a 37,700 psi cartridge (using their testing methodology). They invented the darn cartridge and have used it for the last 100 years so I think they might have some say over what a standard 9x19 load is.

+P SAMMI loads actually test out lower than CIP 9x19 loads.

So let's think about this
1) The people trying to sell you guns and ammo and make as much money as possible, down load a cartridge and call that the standard load.
2) They then load to what should be the standard pressure.
3) Call it something special.
4) Charge you a premium for what is literally just a little extra powder.

Save you money and buy a reloading machine and make your own +P ammo.

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