Are mags meant to be disposable?


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Vegaslaith
August 2, 2008, 08:34 PM
Do soldiers keep their used mags, or let them fall where they may when they hit the mag release? If you were to go back in time to the battle of Stalingrad or Vietnam, would the ground be littered with brass and emty mags?

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lloydkristmas
August 2, 2008, 08:38 PM
Im no expert, but I always thought they had some sort of 'dump pouch' to put a empty mag in (if there was ample time), otherwise, yea I'm sure they just got dropped to the ground.

Erik
August 2, 2008, 08:40 PM
"Are mags meant to be disposable?"

Nope. Dump pounches are the practical solution to spent and partially spent magaines in the field.

Anteater1717
August 2, 2008, 08:40 PM
No, however chargers and stripper clips are.

ASM826
August 2, 2008, 08:46 PM
At Stalingrad, it was bolt action rifles on both sides. In static positions there would be time for brass to accumulate. But there would not have been magazines.

Where magazines have been used, I would think that when things calmed down, undamaged mags usually would be picked up and reloaded, troops in the field are at the very end of the supply line, and no matter how many magazines are in depot storage, you only have the mags you carried out there.

jrfoxx
August 2, 2008, 09:03 PM
Nope. Dump pounches are the practical solution to spent and partially spent magaines in the field.
I believe thats correct, but I'm wouldn't be surprised if they are considered "consumables" by supply, as they are a known item that gets worn, damaged, or otherwise becomes unserviceable fairly quickly, and at a fairly high rate. Also, I wouldn't know from experience, but I would guess that if you dropped a couple mags during a firefight and they got lost or damaged, they wouldn't exactly give you NJP for it. While I'm sure they like to see them all return with you, and return undamaged, I have to think that they understand that it may not always be possible or practical at the same time. Or at least I'd hope so anyways. you never know with the military, they can be funny about stuff.

A good example was my boots the last year I was in the Navy. They kept giving me hits on them during inspections saying they were unservicable and needed to be replaced, but denied 5 request chits from me that year for new boots, claiming mine were still serviceable :confused:. Go figure.:D

Regolith
August 2, 2008, 09:05 PM
I think I read a story here (or perhaps it was somewhere else) where a soldier got fined for failing to police his magazines while serving in Iraq.

The only type of mag I can think of that would be disposable would be a clip, either stripper or en bloc.

Good Shot Group
August 2, 2008, 09:15 PM
I learned in Baghdad that if you drop your magazines on the ground, eventually you won't have any magazines to reload. This lesson was learned in Somalia in the 90's as well. The soldiers involved in that operation were not retaining their magazines and after a little bit they couldn't reload anything.
I teach a Close Quarters Marksmanship Course for the Army that teaches magazine retention and ammo management. You would be suprised how many non combat soldiers can't wrap their head around the fact they need to retain their magazines, because normally no one is going to be able to resupply you in combat.

A dump pouch is a must, I wear a Blackhawk drop leg pouch that will hold all 12 of my magazines. The drop pouch needs to have an elastic closure on the top that you can push magazines through, but that won't let magazines fall out while running, falling, etc.

If you train with your M-4, Ak-47, other black gun, etc., you should have your dump pouch on and use it for all your spent magazines during practice on the range. It's all about building that muscle memory.

.cheese.
August 2, 2008, 09:15 PM
while they're not technically, any mag by Scherer essentially is.

Actually, to be proactive - they should be thrown out promptly upon receipt.

W.E.G.
August 2, 2008, 09:29 PM
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/M16%20comic%20book/015.jpg

XD Fan
August 2, 2008, 09:31 PM
Witty, .cheese., witty.

everallm
August 2, 2008, 09:55 PM
Magazines, just like a computer keyboard or mouse are long term use consumable items. You keep them as long as they work reliably then dump them without regret if there is a persistent issue.

MinnMooney
August 2, 2008, 10:56 PM
By the looks of all the surplus mags that are almost totally worn out, I'd say that they get used over and over many times.

Sistema1927
August 2, 2008, 10:56 PM
Ah, yes, PM comic book. That brings back memories, especially the references to LSA.

Vaarok
August 2, 2008, 11:04 PM
Mags are generally not considered consumable, but it depends on the army. During WW2, in theory, mags for the BAR and Johnson were supposed to be retained, but seldom were.

In Vietnam, while mags were supposed to be retained, again, they seldom actually were in combat. Look at the Diemarco plastic mags the Canadians fielded.

The Soviet philosophy was ambivalent, generally of the opinion that a trooper likely wouldn't survive long enough in battle to have to worry about running out of ammo before he or the enemy was dead and mags could be looted from wounded and dead.

Personally, mag retention is a military skill, and only for prolonged engagements. Otherwise, either you're dead or they are. Either you don't care, or you aren't in a hurry.

Z-Michigan
August 2, 2008, 11:18 PM
What I've read is that the original straight 20-rd magazine for the M16 was intended to be disposable. Funny too since they are quite decent mags. Just another example of bad thinking around a good weapon.

Otherwise, mags are reusable long term, and stripper clips are often treated as disposable - but really shouldn't be. I think a dump pouch is the modern way to go, but with earlier military gear, even through the 1980's, I think it was assumed you would just put empty mags back in the pouch that full mags came from. Yes, I realize the big opportunity for bad mix-ups with that approach. However, when I was issued ALICE gear during ROTC, there were mag pouches but no separate dump pouches. Maybe it was different for real soldiers.

Vegaslaith
August 3, 2008, 02:02 AM
Hmm. So it depends on the country I guess. I've never seen a dump pouch so wouldn' really know what to look for next time I see a war movie.

Z-Michigan
August 3, 2008, 10:22 AM
The only dump pouches I've seen are on or for US soldiers. And I wouldn't expect to see them in a hollywood movie, because they're bulky, their function isn't obvious to most people, and they wouldn't add anything to the plot in 99.9999% of action movies.

Gentleman Ranker
August 3, 2008, 10:49 AM
ASM826 (Yesterday 08:46 PM) #5 (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=4773196&postcount=5) says:
At Stalingrad, it was bolt action rifles on both sides.
Plus SMGs (MP38/40, PPSh, PPD, etc.) and LMGs (some ZB-type in second-line German units, DP-type for the Soviets), etc. Possibly a few rifles with detachable magazines on each side (Soviet SVT, don't know if FG42 or G43 variants were much used there), but not many. Pistols of course, but I would not think those were of great tactical significance.

Not to be pedantic or anything. :)

regards,

GR

bruss01
August 3, 2008, 12:06 PM
I believe that the clips for 30-06 ammo for the M1 Garand were considered disposable. They automatically eject from the top of the rifle and go who-knows-where. I'm not aware of any accounts of GI's going around the battle field either durring or after the battle and picking them up for re-use.

As a side note, is anyone aware of any accounts of someone firing the last round in a Garand from the hip and catching a spent clip in the chops? I can envision that happening but I have never heard any real-world accounts of such.

wally
August 3, 2008, 12:57 PM
Supposedly one of the early knocks against armies adopting auto-loading pistols was the Luger and 1911 magazines weren't "trooper proof" and too expensive to be considered disposable.

--wally,

Onmilo
August 3, 2008, 01:09 PM
A dump pouch can be as simple as a squad auto belt fed ammo bag hung on the belt or vest and as elaborate as a thigh mounted specialized pouch.
The SAW bag will hold an easy six magazines and a dump pouch can hold as many as twenty.
Back when we tucked our uniform shirts in, we just jammed the empty magazines down the front of our shirts.

rcmodel
August 3, 2008, 01:17 PM
I was gonna say.

The only dump pouch I ever had issued was an unbuttoned fatigue shirt.
You put them back in the belt & suspenders mag pouches when you had time later.

Thank god the mags didn't get as hot as the rest of the rifle!

rcmodel

peter_mn
August 3, 2008, 01:51 PM
For accountability, magazines are classified as an expendable item. It’s pretty much up to your particular command to generate policy and enforce it on these items to ensure there is no fraud, waste, or abuse of resources. Units don’t stock up on them with the idea of having to replace them often, like pipe cleaners or bore brushes.

If you are hand-receipted 220 for a range qualification event and you only have 180 when you are finished, you can plan on getting charged for the missing ones.

In a tactical environment you can expect more understanding, so long as you don’t get caught being short of your basic load during a precombat inspection. In those cases there is the potential for someone to get a lot of personal attention, and possibly getting your feelings hurt.

For the purposes of ordering more, they are classified as a repair part. So long as the unit has the money there is no big deal.
As for tactical instruction on whether to retain the magazines; it is up to your unit how they train and operate. I will say that if your unit keeps throwing them away every time they get emptied you can expect to end up without enough magazines in pretty short order.

This is my experience only; the military is a big place.

robsc
August 3, 2008, 02:32 PM
:banghead:

Ragnar Danneskjold
August 3, 2008, 03:12 PM
Keep them if you have time. Like if you're firing from a vehicle, make sure to drop them in the vehicle, not outside. But if you're running and gunning house to house on foot, no one is going to rip you a new one for losing a few mags while you're being shot at. No one who isn't a fobbit anyways.

Titan6
August 3, 2008, 05:12 PM
Dump pouches are standard issue for Marines but not soldiers. A well resourced US Army Soldier may have 20 magazines and access to plenty more while an insurgent might only have one or two.

Disposable depends upon your situation and logistics more than the utility of the magazine. Since the magazine is reusable it is not meant to be thrown away after a single use so it is not disposable in that sense. But it is just another piece of gear that is normally easily replaceable so it if the situation dictates dropping it and not worrying about where it lands then so be it.

Kharn
August 3, 2008, 05:31 PM
Bruss01:
While the Garand was in service, .30-06 was loaded into the clips at the factory, so there was no need to collect the clips for reuse. You'll see a stencil on those crates similar to [::::] (but the dots rotated 90deg) to show that the ammo inside is on clips.

Kharn

Good Shot Group
August 3, 2008, 05:46 PM
The Army didn't give me my dump pouch. I had to buy all my own tac gear because they didn't give me the tools necessary for survival.

sacp81170a
August 3, 2008, 08:36 PM
they didn't give me the tools necessary for survival

It wasn't the Army, it was your Supply NCO, who sometimes think they are the ones in charge of every service. Only God or a Senior NCO has any sway with such a creature. ;)

Acera
August 3, 2008, 08:38 PM
We used the cargo pockets on our BDU trousers. The few lost ones, and a few other things (like a bayonet ;) ) were recorded as a "combat loss". I tried to keep track of everything like that. Might even still have some of it :)

Good Shot Group
August 3, 2008, 09:23 PM
Quote: "It wasn't the Army, it was your Supply NCO, who sometimes think they are the ones in charge of every service."

I must disagree. I was one of those Army National Guard units you heard about that deployed with barely the clothes on our backs. No body armor, soft skinned hummvees, no extra ammo, etc. If the Army doesn't see fit to equip you with the tools necessary for survival, buy it yourself. Dump pouches are a must.

peter_mn
August 3, 2008, 10:57 PM
It wasn't the Army, it was your Supply NCO, who sometimes think they are the ones in charge of every service.

Iím going apologize for taking us a little farther off topic.

-Start rant-
I doubt that your supply NCO was sitting in the rear with the gear using piles of your dump pouches as a soft place to sleep on. Iíll admit that there are a small number of supply guys who are total *censored*; but at best the ratio isnít any higher in the Quartermaster Corps than in the rest of the army as a whole. I like to believe that the ratio is a little lower in the QM Corps.

To answer the magazine question:
You can order as many magazines as they will let you get away with, but there are usually 5-7 people in the chain of events required to get the order in and approved that can kill/questions or requests. And, any or all persons in this chain of events may require: a personal memorandum for record from your commander, a monthly report and spreadsheet detailing where the magazines are being used accompanied by sworn statements, and a personal PowerPoint presentation on how magazines function; in order for them to process your request. :banghead:

-End rant-

All that aside; I believe that I work with some of the best people this country has and wouldnít trade it for the world.

"Keep the best, issue the rest":rolleyes:

bogie
August 4, 2008, 12:08 AM
Guys, just an aside here...

When I shoot handgun, I put a tarp down. The mags hit the tarp (along with a bunch of brass, which is now easier to pick up). Same with brass and speedloaders from the .357. Yeah. I drop 'em when they're empty. How else am I gonna shoot the boomstick?

If I have a mag in the pistol, and two in the pocket, I'm not worrying about "is it disposable?" I'm worrying about putting as many rounds into the bad guy(s) as possible, until they stop moving toward me. Hence, that sucker hits the ground, and hopefully while it's still in the air I've got another round in the pipe.

If you -train- being careful, you'll -fight- being careful. Magazines are not disposable, but they are consumables.

Remember - I think there was at least one cop in that Miami shootout who died with brass in his pocket, because he didn't dump and speedload - he'd been taught to carefully pocket the brass.

Onmilo
August 4, 2008, 08:51 AM
What's a PowerPoint Presentation!!??
Back in my day, we had flip pads and your illustrations had better been in color!:D

22-rimfire
August 4, 2008, 10:41 AM
Power Point is a Microsoft software package designed to put together slide presentations such as you may have seen with an overhead projector. Overheads are still used, but not as much as years ago. PP is all electronic. Quite useful program.

Harley Man
August 4, 2008, 01:47 PM
I have a WW II question for the knowledgeable...As I understand it (I'm 60) a lot of officers in WW II carried Thompsons 45 Cal. with I'm guessing 30 round mags which look large and bulky. Do you think these guys collected there mags, and did they have some sort of drop pouch, or just replaced them into the original mag holder belt? Just wondering?

One Riot ...One Ranger

possum
August 4, 2008, 02:20 PM
in a fight for your life you don't think about expended mags, if we drop them and aren't able to retrieve them then we leave em, and we get more later, we have tons of mags, many still in cases just waiting to be loaded up and used. each solider normally has a few extra as well back at the fob, cop, jss etc. i carry 12 normally and have many more back at the jss that i could restock on after a mission if i need to.

dump pouches are awesome, but if you have time to put a mag in a dump pouch then that is valuable time that you could be shooting, moving or comunicating. if there is a lul in the fight then yes that makes sense, but otherwise i don't mind loosing mags. they are empty anyway and they will do me no good to worry about them at the current time.

ctdonath
August 4, 2008, 02:28 PM
IIRC, Stoner designed AR mags to be disposable (cheap stamped metal with few parts). That doesn't necessarily mean one truly expects to always throw 'em away when emptied, but does make it easy to discard (and replace) if warranted by the situation.

Ironically, it seems the paramount issue for retiring the M16 is that any replacement shall accept standard AR mags.

sacp81170a
August 4, 2008, 03:04 PM
I doubt that your supply NCO was sitting in the rear with the gear using piles of your dump pouches as a soft place to sleep on.

Oh boy! I was just poking a little gentle fun. Didn't realize I was gonna hit such a sensitive nerve!

You can order as many magazines as they will let you get away with, but there are usually 5-7 people in the chain of events required to get the order in and approved that can kill/questions or requests. And, any or all persons in this chain of events may require: a personal memorandum for record from your commander, a monthly report and spreadsheet detailing where the magazines are being used accompanied by sworn statements, and a personal PowerPoint presentation on how magazines function; in order for them to process your request.

Okay, so it isn't the supply NCO, it's the supply system. I thought the new system on the battlefield was a "push" instead of the "pull" that it used to be. That would mean that instead of having to requisition ammo, mags, etc., it's just assumed that they're going to be consumed so that an active unit will get those supplies "pushed" out to them. If they ask for more, they get more. Is this not the case? It would make a huge difference in whether you didn't worry too much about dumping empty mags(besides leaving them around for the enemy to use). possum seems to be having a very different experience than peter_mn.

UKarmourer
August 4, 2008, 04:30 PM
I carry 6, plus a bandolier of 120 in 10 rd stripper clips in my webbing.

normally on the range they go back in the pouches, normally thought they go down the front of my smock (webbing waist belt stops them falling out)

our theory is not to lose mags, as they can be used in any weapon with a STANAG mag well.

and at the end of the day its all about personal admin.

I am however getting a dump pouch for my next tour!

DWARREN123
August 4, 2008, 04:52 PM
You police them up when you can but a fire fight is not the time to worry about mags. I always carried more than issued and was always on the look out for more. Hard to reload during trigger time.

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