[lycanthrope]

Is a 160gr Nosler partition in 7mm pushed to 3250fps enough for elk?

[only1asterisk]

I think you'd be fine. You may not want to take a close up shot, but I tend to be extemely consevative when hunting.

David

[ojibweindian]

What cartridge are you using to push a 160gr 7mm pill to 3250 fps? Just curious...

[lycanthrope]

Thanks for the replies so far.

It's a 7mm STW.

[dakotasin]

yes, that will be enough for elk...

but, an stw produces so much velocity that were it me, i'd bump up to a 175 partition. once you cross that line (somewhere between 3000-and 3200), bullet performance can be kinda iffy at times - at least it has in my rifles.

what you have will work, though i'd reccomend you at least consider 175's.

[Art Eatman]

You're in the area of bullet performance where the potential problem is of the bullet coming apart on you.

You can email some of the bullet-makers for their more knowledgeable opinions than anything I could tell you.

Back at TFL, we got into a discussion of Sierra bullets. I emailed Sierra; one of their people came online with us and offered some helpful comments.

Art

[HSMITH]

yes, that will be enough for elk...

but, an stw produces so much velocity that were it me, i'd bump up to a 175 partition

This man gives wise advise. The partition is NOT designed for the speeds you are going to push it to, and the nose section is going to blow off it in the first couple inches of penetration leaving you with a 90-110grain 30-32 caliber FMJ. It WILL kill an elk but not nearly as well as it will at 2850 FPS. Partitions don't need or like big velocities.

If you want mega speeds take a look at the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, Swift Sirocco and A-Frame. There are other good bonded core bullets out there too, and they will do a lot better at the velocities you are thinking about. Also be sure to call the tech line at the bullet companies to find out what they would recommend for you, they know worlds more about it than hunters do and have done all the testing.

[rick_reno]

Yes, it's more than adequate. Remember, people take elk with arrows - lots of them every year. My arrows move at around 260 fps and weigh in at 125 grs. and they can harvest and elk (with a little luck it'll happen this week), I do have to get in close but that's usually not a problem. I'll never know which gun writer popularized the notion that it takes a cannon moving a big bullet at hypervolcity to harvest these animals. I was down visiting relative in St. Maries, ID. last weekend and they use .243 up to 7mm-08's on elk. Most of them have only one rifle and shoot it well, and these folks manage to harvest animals every year. Shot placement is important, I'd argue it's important to get a gun you can shoot often enough to get proficient with and then use it.

[kudu]

Hey rick_reno don't you mean that your broadheads weigh in at 125grs. a piece and not your arrows. :o

[rick_reno]

Yep, just the broadheads are 125 grs. - don't know what the arrow weights, they're cheap aluminum shafts.
They do kill elk.

[lycanthrope]

Thanks for the continued info.

The 7STW is a pussycat to shoot and makes it easy at long range which is why I prefer the velocity. Most of my CO local friends are shooting .308's.



The rephrase and be more specific:

Will the 160gr partition break the front shoulder of an elk? Grenading in the chest cavity is fine with me.

I tend to disbelieve what I hear in the gun rags. Been shooting CT 140 ballistic tips at 3400 fps for whitetails for 5 years and they all carry right through. Even at 50 yards.

[Fuzzy]

A buddy and I drew 'any elk' tags here in AZ a few years ago. We both use 30-06s and we both brought Federal Premium High Energy 180 grain Nosler Partitions. I didn't get one, but my buddy shot a cow elk at about 100 yards. Luckily it got her right in the heart and she took a few steps, tripped, fell, and never got up again. I say it was lucky because the bullet didn't expand at all. It entered through a rib, went through the heart and came out the other side leaving a .30 inch hole the entire way. No expantion at all. If he hadn't gotten her in the heart and just got lung, she could have run a long way before she died.

It seems to be that the Partition is designed to blast through the heavy shoulder of a bull elk. If you don't hit something solid enough then it may not expand.

[rick_reno]

I don't read any gun rags - I believe what I see in the woods. Seriously, I don't subscribe to even one hunting or firearm related magazine. I'll scan thru them at the supermarket sometimes but all they look like to me is ads for the latest gizmo to kill things even deader than last years gizmo.

Yes, those bullets will work on a shoulder shot. Don't worry about it.

[lycanthrope]

Thanks Rick and Fuzzy. I don't need absolute certainty. Shot placement is my responsibility........but I figure ONE shoulder of a bull is about as wide as a full whitetail buck.

I've shot at least 29 whitetails with varying bullets. My best results have been with Hornady and Ballistic Tips at HIGH velocity. A couple have been paunch shots (due to wind beyond 400 yards) and the high expansion saved my bacon. On the contrast, I've shot Failsafe's, Scirroco's and others that have not expanded to "explosive" levels. I prefer real life experience and I expect groups at least at the .5 MOA level.

Not to get off track, but I wonder why the CCW crowd does not worry so much about overpenetration as does the hunting crowd.

I tend to subscribe to the: "Penetrate the hardest part of the animal and then expand" cult. If it makes another leak hole fine. If not, and it goes BOOM fine. A hole in the vitals tends to have the same result. Personally, I like the heart to be Jell-o after a shoulder shot.

[rick_reno]

I use 165 Nosler BT's on everything in 30-06. Why? Because I bought a couple of boxes of them on sale maybe 5-7 years ago (I've had them awhile) and I usually shoot 1-2 a year. They work pretty well. I haven't gotten an exit would with them and they really make a mess of heart/lung shots - turning those organs to the consistency of mush. If I ever get lucky and draw and a moose tag here I'd probably use something else. I'm a volunteer rangemaster at the city run shooting range here in town and I've heard lots of horror stories about Scirroco's - for a "premium" bullet they don't seem to work well.

[lycanthrope]

I can back up a story with a Scirroco. Last year I saw a Whitetail buck shot with one at 350 yards out of a .300 win mag. I gutted the animal and couldn't see anything but a pencil hole. Pencil holed in the front shoulder and never exited the other shoulder. Got both lungs, but minimal damage. The deer drug itself 30 yards and never bled (in snow).

[Duncan Idaho]

For a 7mm STW, I would probably go with a heavier bullet. Barnes X-Bullets will hold together quite nicely.Remember, people take elk with arrows - lots of them every year. My arrows move at around 260 fps and weigh in at 125 grs*.You are comparing apples and bowling balls. Most people do when they compare archery and firearms.

Arrows kill by hemorrhage. Sharpness of the blade is the key to success along with shot placement, and using a bow that will launch the arrow at a reasonable number of FPS.

Bullets kill by inducing trauma. How much trauma they induce is dependent upon shot placement, FPS downrange (which effects ft/lbs of energy at impact), and bullet design.

In short, a 300 gr. FMJ bullet could pass through both lungs of an elk, and result in an elk that would run hundreds of yards farther than an elk hit in precisely the same spot with a razor sharp broadhead. With the exception of limited range, an arrow with a properly sharpened** head is actually a more effective killing device than most people would believe or imagine.

In hunting accidents, many people survive being hit by bullets. Almost none survive being hit by hunting arrows. The chances of getting the victim to help before they bleed to death are very small.

If I had to choose (and I hope I never have to) I would much rather be hit by a bullet than an arrow with a broadhead. Even a marginal hit would likely result in death.


*Idaho Archery Big Game regs. [It is unlawful to hunt big game] "With an arrow and broadhead with a combined totalweight of less than 400 grains" I'm sure that you mean that the broadheads you use weigh 125 grs. Unless you are using an overdraw bow, your arrows most likely weigh (including broadhead) closer to 500 grs. If not, you might want to make a few changes before you go elk hunting. ;)

** One excellent test for proper sharpness is to try to cut through a lightly stretched rubber band. If the head is sharp, it will take almost no pressure to make the cut.

[Gordon]

While never using a 7mm STW on elk, I got a few with 7mmRem mag with 26" barrel in a B-78 Browning. I used 175 Nosler Partictions with good results. I would also consider the Barnes X bullet in either 160 or 175 weight.;)

[H&Hhunter]

High velocity + soft bullets = trouble...Period. Especially on larger tougher animals such as elk.

I have witnessed a complete failure on elk with a 180 gr Remington PSP or a factory winchester power point ( I can't remeber now) bullet on a shoulder shot out of a .300 weatherby. That same bullet moving at 2700 or 2500 out of a .30-06 would have gone on through. The velocity is the problem.

What happens if your only shot is a quartering on or off shot and you'll need to break some bone to get to the boiler room? Heavier better built bullets are the answer.

I'd go with a 175Gr bullet in a Barnes-X, Swift A-frame, Fail Safe, Partition Gold, or some such.

If your going to use the 160 gr PArtition just be really carefull on your shot go for a behind the shoulder shot try not to hit major bone and get your blood tracking skills up to snuff.
;)

Have a great hunt and good luck.

[lycanthrope]

Is there a difference between the Partition and the Partition Gold. I thought it was just a moly coat.

[H&Hhunter]

Yes the partition gold is thicker tougher bullet. You can get them in either molly or molly free.

The major differences are.

Thicker jacket
Thicker partition
A steel cup lines the core (IE Fail Safe)
Positive heel crimp and a flat base

Over all a much tougher bullet.

[Gordon]

The faster you push the X-bullets the better they work Failsafe bullets are good too, just use 175grains to slow that mustang down a bit , like H&H said.

[labgrade]

I'd be a bit hestitant to avail myself of all the velocity you can get from your platform.

One can only shoot so far & still make a clean/vital hit & you do owe it to your quary.

Elk are much tougher than any whitetail/muley deer comparison.

I would tend to launch heavier/better penetrative bullets at a slower speed that a lighter/more "explosive" bullet at the higher speeds. Figure that trajectory won't play much in your hunt.

We've used, over the past few years, & very successfully, too, Fed's 180 Premium Sierra BTs (~2700 fps in '06 - & comparale handloads) & the 165gr Barnes XBT in .308 at a mere 2400fps. Both do 'em right well.

'Course, too, we're shooting mostly w/in <100 yards & better yet, w/in 35 or so.

Then again, I've a very well respecteed bud who shoots a .30-375 (? - I do foget the caliber, but a .30/180 Nosler BT at an honest 3600fps & he swears by it. .... )

For me, I choose a medium platform, easy to tote around that will do elk within the limitations that I've set opon myself to make a clean kill.

It's never the bullet, the range, the rifle, the coonditions .... but always the hunter. You either make a clean one-shot kill, or you don't.

& that is alway your responsibility.

</smarmy/potification = off>

[Mike Irwin]

That should be a fantastic Elk combination.

Nosler Partitions are probably the best overall generally available hunting bullet available.

[labgrade]

"Nosler Partitions are probably the best overall generally available hunting bullet available."

I'd disagree, if one is handloading, or has the option for a factory loading. (Tempered with "general availability" - granted)

Barnes rifle bullets are touted to reliably expand, while penetrating to depth, at 1600 fps - an really incrfible range of velocites, while still providing for the necessary penetration & expansion.

I'd suspect that there are better bullets on the market than the Nosler Partitions, although they aren't a "bad" bullet - merely that they may be betters out there.

Still, all in all, hunting ability & proper shot placement will kill more things than any caliber or specific bullet ever will.

[Mike Irwin]

Lab,

I don't count Barnes as generally available.

I can't walk into any shop that carries reloading supplies in any of the areas in Northern Virginia or Pennsylvania that I normally haunt and pick up a couple of boxes of Barnes bullets. I have to order them.

As often as not, though, those same shops will have a good selection of Nosler Partitions.


"Still, all in all, hunting ability & proper shot placement will kill more things than any caliber or specific bullet ever will."

REALLY? :eek:

:D

Yeah, that's sort of a given. But Nosler Partitions can take a questionable shot and convert it into a kill due to the simple fact that they retain weight very well, hold together unbelievably well (I've never heard of a Partition either spliting the partition or shedding the rear core), and generally perform excellently.

[labgrade]

Not arguing the point that Nosler Partitions are a decent bullet, only that there may be some better.

& even though Barnes may be spotty (here too at times), they're merely a coupla days off by mail order. & they have an incredible BC/SD besides they seem to shoot right through everything.

All told, I'd betcha that any off the shelf bullet/rifle combo suitable for the game afoot will do its job if one does theirs.

[Mike Irwin]

"All told, I'd betcha that any off the shelf bullet/rifle combo suitable for the game afoot will do its job if one does theirs."

BS! ABSOLUTE CLAP TRAP BS!

YOU SHOULD NOT....

Oh, wait.

I agree with that.

Never mind... :neener:

[labgrade]

Mike.

You are a hoot!

:cool: enough by me, pal.

[H&Hhunter]

(I've never heard of a Partition either spliting the partition or shedding the rear core), and generally perform excellently

You have now Mike. I've seldom recoverd a partition that did not shed it's rear core after hitting heavy bone. Especially on large hogs I don't know what the deal is but big boars tend to kill partitions on a shoulder shot.

The last time I recovered one (from a dead hog granted) the only thing I could find was some jacket material and and the partiton metal the bullet had completely disinigrated. This is not an isolated case I've seen it several times. That was a 180gr out of a .308.

I've had more than one PH tell me that they don't trust a nosler pt to penetrate a buffs shoulder out of a .375H&H. failure is very common on thick critters with the partition it's just to soft of a bullet.

With that being said I think it's fine elk round at reasonable velocities. less than 3000fps for a bullet with an SD of 300 or greater. IEa 175 out of a 7MM.

[HSMITH]

H&H, I have seen the same thing with the partition coming apart on heavy bone. I have seen it two times on elk, both 300 win mags with 180 grain bullets loaded hot and close shoulder shots. Close like 40 yards or so.

Slow them down and they work great, push them too hard and they blow up just like any bullet will that is being pushed beyond what it was designed for. That same 180 out of an '06 at 2750 will bust an elk from stem to stern and crunch a LOT of bone along the way.......

All opinions aside, CALL NOSLER!!!!!!!!! They know their bullets and will not give you bad info. I for one would appreciate knowing what they said.

[JShirley]

Almost none survive being hit by hunting arrows.

Hm. This does not indicate a causal link, ie, "broadhead arrow are more effective than bullets". Bowhunting tends to utilize very careful, close-range shots. It's hard to even imagine a circumstance where a human could accidentally be shot with an arrow. Put another way, with identical skill levels and engagement distances, I do not think bows are more effective than firearms.

John