[R.W.Dale]

This poll is for those of us who have hunted with various handgun cartridges. After witnessing the results of what the terminal effects of a handgun round on game are do you still believe in "stopping power" as it relates to defensive handguning.

Please elaborate on your hunting experiences.

Mine are from shooting various smaller pest, game and varmint critters with what are considered to be defensive loads. An example is I've noted that no matter how good the body hit a cor-bon .380 HP and a 115g 9mm JHP neither will not keep an armadillo from getting to it's hole. Sometimes a great distance away. A blast from a .410 at the same ranges and it's lights out.

[Ridgerunner665]

3 deer shot with a 45 ACP...all 3 dropped within 30 yards, all one shot kills (1 was dead before he hit the ground...dropped in his tracks), at ranges from 15 to 45 yards. The ammo used was factory loaded Remington 230 grain Golden Sabres and the pistol is a Les Baer stainless Stinger (4.25 inch barrel on an officers frame)...there is a pretty good sized thread over on 1911forum about it...Its called "I killed a deer with a 230 grain Golden Sabre"...

I have seen deer hit good with a 270, 30-06, 308, Etc. run farther than that...SHOT PLACEMENT IS STOPPING POWER.

Edited to add a link to the 1911forum thread: I killed a deer with a 230 grain Golden Sabre (http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=186035)

[3 gun]

There is no such thing as stopping power. A poor shot with a .500 S&W is a day following a blood trial and a perfect shot with a 22mag is dinner. More power gives you more chances to find and use that good shot. There is no magic bullet or caliber. Only the skills you have to use your tools to their best advantage. A good hunter with a 357mag pistol will fill the freezer faster than a bad hunter with anything you give him short of an air strike. I voted 6 of one...

[TAB]

I don't beleave any chambering has stoping power... I've shot a charging pig with a 30-06 at close range and had the bullets fail to pentrait its skull.

[herohog]

Hunting WHAT with WHAT? Not a "fair" or valid question worded as is if you will. As others have have pointed out, shot placement it 1/2 the game as well.

[mtngunr]

You folk replying might want to refresh or add to your memory banks exactly what a one-shot-stop is defined as......very few high-powered rifles meet that criteria....I don't believe in any one-shot-stop with anything unless the spine or brain is hit....well, point-blank with a howitzer or an airburst nuclear weapon would pass muster....

[herohog]

The question was: After hunting with a handgun do you still buy into "stopping power"I've stopped many a squirrel in its tracks with a .22 to the head from a pistol. Again. Poorly worded question. The parameters need defining. Are we talking self defense (Man) or Bear or Wild Boar? Each would elicit a far different answer.

[wyocarp]

I don't beleave any chambering has stoping power... I've shot a charging pig with a 30-06 at close range and had the bullets fail to pentrait its skull.


Although a 30-06 is a good hunting rifle, I wouldn't say that it has much stopping power or ability to penetrate tough bone.

[livebythegun]

You folk replying might want to refresh or add to your memory banks exactly what a one-shot-stop is defined as......very few high-powered rifles meet that criteria....I don't believe in any one-shot-stop with anything unless the spine or brain is hit....well, point-blank with a howitzer or an airburst nuclear weapon would pass muster.... Spoken like someone who knows very little about guns or hunting. I hunt with a .243 among others and it will put a deer down if shot in the vitals(heart, lungs). I have had deer drop in their tracks with my Winchester 94 in .45 long colt, again with shots to the vitals.

[The Bushmaster]

Colt 4 3/4" SAA Second generation. Winchester cases. 18.5 grains of W-296 under a 140 grain Remington SJHP. WSPM primer. And real close. Bullet placement is a good idea too.

[rcmodel]

I've shot a charging pig with a 30-06 at close range and had the bullets fail to pentrait its skull. I call Shenanigans on that one right there!
A 30-06 with the proper hunting bullet will shoot through a pig lengthways!
Perhaps you should get some hunting ammo and stop using varmint loads or whatever it was you were using.

As for the OP question, there is no such thing as a one-shot stop, unless the brain or spine is hit.

A "one-shot-stop" as used in reference to SD, and a one shot stop or kill as used in referance to hunting are two completely different things.

Many times an animal will run 25 - 50 -75 yards with a fatal shot to the heart / lung area. And it will stop when it runs out of blood. You follow the blood trail, and there it is, deader then dead.

In hunting, that is of no consequence, but in a gunfight, the "dead man walking" could kill you several times while he bleeds out enough to stop fighting.

Is there such a thing as a one-shot-stop?

Maybe, sometimes, but never always without fail, regardless of the caliber.

rcmodel

[livebythegun]

I have to disagree with you on this one. I have had more than one animal drop from a shot to the vitals. In fact the last deer that I shot with my Win. 94AE .45 Colt flipped over backwards and never even twitched. It was quartering to me and I shot it right in the chest with 255gr. Winchester SuperX Silvertips. I also shot one last year with my .308 quartering away on the side of a hill. She fell right where she stood and slid down the hill about 20 feet.

[rcmodel]

I said "many times an animal will run", not "it will run every time!"

Certainly, many times a animal will drop in its tracks and not even twitch. A 22-250 chest shot coyote comes to mind.

My point was, you simply cannot count on an animal, or a man, doing it every time you shoot one with a handgun caliber.

Another thing to consider is, that deer that dropped in his tracks probably wasn't using Crack or PCP.

It wasn't even charged with adrenalin, because it had no idea it was going to be shot.

rcmodel

[Phil DeGraves]

Colt 4 3/4" SAA Second generation. Winchester cases. 18.5 grains of W-296 under a 140 grain Remington SJHP. WSPM primer. And real close. Bullet placement is a good idea too.

That must be a .357 SAA.

[The Bushmaster]

Yup...A 1966 Colt SAA .357 magnum...

[jonboynumba1]

I trust a gun to stop something....not all guns and calibers are equal but they are closer to each-other than they are a rifle. Shot placement and bullet design and selection are important. Nothing under .40 (with the exception of .357 maybe) would be my choice for hunting .44s haveworked extremely well. It will make you realize why you have a magazine if something scarry runs at you after the first shot! I've seen a 200# + buck killed dead on the spot with a 9mm JHP round and I've seen stuff shot with a hot .44 run hundreds of yards. I believe smaller calibers penetrate easier but large calibers kill better....assuming the bullet is of adequate weight to penetrate well. Forget about shock power...you need a good sized hole all the way through the animal in a place that causes them to drop...it also has to survive bones without blowing up. Many of todays better deffensive JHP bullets can make excellent hunting bullets...some not so much. You need something accurate and reliable....more than that you need marksmanship tempered by good judgement to know when not to try the shot in question.

You will be trying for a clean one shot kill so 1200+ FPS in something .40+calof prefferably 200+ grains would color in my idea of a good choice. Though less certainly can work...but that sounds a whole lot like what Elmer Keith found over a LIFETIME of shooting things with handguns. That is what the .44 mag pretty well does. HP's have come a long way but that just makes a proven recipe better. Taming it down for control and faster accurate shooting you see why the .45acp and .45 colt loads have worked so well for so long. Not to say 9mm isn't a viable deffensive tool...I have and would carry one...you can shoot as many times as you need afterall. But all things being equal I like my calibers to start with a "4" and for shooting plates ect I find the flatnosed .40 ball ammo does better than RN 9mm ball for plinking (the added weight helps to) In .45 it was a light 200gr SWC load of I think 5.1 gr Unique (without looking) The 180gr .40 ball does just as well with just a little more recoil in my G22. I got tired of loading and messing with lead bullets anyway. So now I do everything with my .40...I kinda want a G20 to play with in 10mm (very .41 mag-like) If they come out with an SF model I'll buy one.

It's hard to beat a Ruger SBH or S&W 29/629 for handgun hunting though...and you don't need the hotest ammo money can buy for deer and smaller either....1200-1300 withe a 200-240gr pill works plenty fine as long as you choose the right bullet and find something your gun shoots well in a proven design.

[CYANIDEGENOCIDE]

Very subjective. Stopping power yes, the one shot instantaneous death does not exist unless you splatter brain (sorry for being graphic). The only that ever kills people or animals is suffocation. If you can stop oxygen from getting to the brain the creature will die. Stopping power is the shockwave you can cause through the animal to disrupt life supporting functions. I have found if I can make the deer (between 80 and 130lbs) absorb 700 foot pounds of energy in the vital zone, the animal will die. Thats not to say less wouldn't work, but I have noticed when the energy is below 500 foot pounds sometimes I need a second shot.

[Old Grump]

Have put down a lot of rabbit, squirrel and pigeon with a 22 handgun of various flavors. Used to use a 357 as my primary deer gun but have moved up in power. Like jonboynumba1 I believe the hunting caliber for large game should start with a 4. I have only had to shoot one deer twice and that was my first deer. I still practice long range shooting with my revolvers and pistols but now the deer or hog has to be under 100 yards, preferably under 50 or I will pass on the shot.

[Katana8869]

4 years ago I shot a 90 lb dog at close range that was trying to attack my then 2 year old daughter. I fired once and hit it in the chest with a 135gr .40 cal Cor-Bon out of a Glock 27 at less than 5 yards while it was in full attack charge at my little girl. The dog hit the dirt and died on the spot.

Some years before that I shot a feral cat in the head with a Mini-14 and watched it try to get up and run away because the .223 ball round bouced off of it's head leaving a long furrow in the bone of the skull but not penetrating to the brain. Another shot to the body brought it down so I was able to examine the wound myself.

The point is, no living being reacts well to being shot but effectiveness is not so much about what they are shot with as it is about how the shot is placed. I have hunted and shot alot of critters and I will be the first to agree with the old adage of "A good hit with a .22 is better that a miss with a .45". This is true with any caliber and IMO it is as good as gospel.

[ants]

In 2005, I hit a 140 pound mule deer in the middle of the chest with a 44 magnum at only 15 yards, which would be a long shot for self-defense.

The bullet went straight through the chest, exit wound was the same diameter as the entry wound. He jumped and ran until a follow-up shot hit his neck.

Too much gun at close range may simply make a clean hole straight through.

[Jeff F]

Here's a picture of a mule dear I took with one shot with a 4 inch .357 GP 100. Magtech 158grain JSP at about 30 feet. Dropped him like a rock DRT.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=46833&d=1161656129
There have been a few that I had to look for. Not far or long but they did run a ways.

[mtngunr]

Mr. Livebythegun, your comment of Spoken like someone who knows very little about guns or hunting. I hunt with a .243 among others and it will put a deer down if shot in the vitals(heart, lungs).
only reinforces the thought you should not quit your day job, as you make a terrible psychic.

I only take 2-3 deer per year in my back yard, with guns as various as a 32WCF leveraction, a .58cal musket, a ROA .457 with ball, a Redhawk shooting 180gr XTPs at 1900fps, .45 Colt and 38WCF SAA's, 1911 .45ACP with the 452460, an Argentine '09 Cavalry Carbine in 7.65mm, many more guns, many different critters, from hog to 'yotes...and casually plink at and hit drink cans at 100yds shooting unsupported with handguns, and etc.....an afternoon shooting with me might prove educational.

Most handguns lack explosive slap of high-powered rifles, and even rifles with well-hit critters can show the target ambling off unconcernedly for 20yds to 100yds before realizing they are dead.

Generally speaking, I have highest confidence in my handguns, but also generally admit most critters don't fall down as soon when well hit....spine/brain shots excepted.

Stopping power with handguns is generally tied to the one-stop-shot myth, which is why I mentioned the definition of that in the first place....Marshall/Sanow originally defined the OSS as immediate cessation, and/or less than something like 10ft of fleeing before collapse....most animals hit with rifles run further than that.

[goon]

I've only ever hunted with high powered rifles (30-30, .303 British, .308 Winchester, .300 savage, .35 Remington) but I still don't believe in stopping power.
It's a myth that is used to fuel online arguments.

Having said that, I do trust a gun to generally kill what I shoot with it.
In my experience, every animal I shot did die, eventually. Most of the animals I've seen shot by other people also died, eventually.

For defensive uses, I don't trust any gun to be able to stop anything, man or beast, with only shot.
Fortunately, even a revolver carries a lot more than one round.

[Ridgerunner665]

Those references to the 30-06 not penetrating are funny...

I have seen 180 grain bullets from a 30-06 shoot plumb through both shoulder blades and exit the far side of a 400 lb. black bear at nearly 250 yards.

A 30-06 is plenty capable of doing the exact same thing on a really big grizzly.

The one thing that matters just as much as shot placement is proper bullet selection...handgun or rifle, if you can put those 2 things together...you will kill whatever you're shooting at.

[The Bushmaster]

I thought this was a pistol/revolver thread...My mistake...:evil:

[foghornl]

I have put a few Bambis in the freezer courtesy of a handgun...

2 with a .357Mag, 1 with my .44Cap-n-ball revolver.

But only at very close range...<40Yds

Have taken a lot of squirrel/rabbit over the years with a .22LR, both rifle and handgun.

Never had to track Bambi more than 20Yds from point of impact...although one of them sort of ran around in a circle.

[KBintheSLC]

The gun I hunt most with is a Ruger MKIII .22 pistol. It is great on small game of all kinds. We have a pigeon infestation problem, so I keep them in check with a stack full of CCI Stingers. They hit so hard that they generally rip the body of the pigeon in half and empty out the innards on impact. It is not a pretty sight, but it is one of the most humane and rapid deaths I have seen while hunting.

As for big game, I assume that a big-bore revolver will do the same job as a rifle as long as you do your job.

[rcmodel]

It still seems to me everyone is missing the intent of this poll question.

The question in the poll is:
do you still believe in "stopping power" as it relates to defensive handguning.

We all agree a handgun will kill a deer, sooner or later.

But the OP wanted to know if we still believe in "Stopping Power", not killing power!

The poll results & posts seem to indicate that 46% think a handgun will kill game ranging from Pigeon to Moose with one shot.

Not stop a BG in his tracks instantly with one shot!
And that was the question in the OP.

rcmodel

[Master of Arms]

My friend shot a doe with his .357 mag at about 25 yards and the impact knocked the deer off of its feet and it landed flat on its side and died.
Two years ago I was hunting and it was almost too dark to see when out she came. It was during primative weapon season so I was packing my 45-70. I took the shot with open sights at about 75 yards. The shot was waayyy off and it struck the deer right behind the hip. The impact knocked the deer down and incapacitated it long enough for me to dispatch it with a blunt tool.

Point being that although placement is the primary concern when hunting, the power behind the shot can often make a significant difference in the outcome.

So I would say yes, I believe that when using a handgun of a heavier caliber that there will definately be a high % of the cases where one shot would incapacitate any human being.

[wyocarp]

The one thing that matters just as much as shot placement is proper bullet selection...handgun or rifle, if you can put those 2 things together...you will kill whatever you're shooting at.

NO. Not always.

I do believe in one shot kills.

I do believe in stopping power.

I do believe if my son had shot the bear that was charging at us a couple of months ago with a 30-06, the bear would have still been running much longer than I wanted. Instead, he dropped him at 20 feet with one shot, dead in his tracks with a shot dead center of his chest.

I grew up using a 30-06, it is a great rifle, but it doesn't drop the big animals the way I like to see them drop. I don't care where you hit them.

There is a difference in calibers. There are documented cases of bears being killed with a .22 that had perfect shot placement, but I'm not going to use one and I consider myself a decent shot.

[freakshow10mm]

There is no such thing as stopping power.

I've hunted small game and deer and black bears with the .357 Magnum and 10mm Auto in handguns. I've perhaps taken 6 or 7 deer and only 2 blackies in my lifetime with a handgun (I'm 27).

I took one bear with the 10mm and one with the 357. Both were inside 60y and were one shot kills. The 10mm was a 200gr XTP at 1050fps and the 357 Mag was a 180gr Partition Gold at whatever velocity that I can't recall, perhaps 1200-1300fps. Both piled up within 30y of being hit. The 10mm was a headshot and the 357 went through both shoulders.

For deer, they aren't as hard to kill as people make them out to be; blackies included. My favorite deer load is a 215gr LSWC at 1100fps. I've never in my life had a deer run more than maybe 30-40y after being shot.

I've seen deer shrug off a .300 Wby Mag but fall to a 22-250. Placement in the same spot. One deer my uncle shot needed 4 heart shots with a 7 Mag using 175gr RN before it gave up. All shots hit the heart and were in a fist sized group.

Two rifle cartridges I've used on deer and bears that will never fail me are the 45/70 and 375 Holland.

[wyocarp]

Both piled up within 30y of being hit.

That is why people don't believe in stopping power, because some have never seen it. 30 yards is not a demonstration of stopping power. Stopping power for me is when the animal doesn't make another step and is dead. Some guns are able to do that more regularly than others with the same shooter and that is because of greater stopping power.

[freakshow10mm]

I've shot deer that dropped as soon as the bullet hit. That isn't stopping power.

You can name all the cartridges in the world you want to and none of them will drop an animal "in their tracks". I've seen a lot of animals shot with all sorts of weapons.

I've witnessed a crazy uncle of mine shoot a 416 Rigby into a whitetail, going through both shoulders and it carried on for some 60y. I've seen the same uncle shoot a large bodied buck dead in the heart at 130 something yards using a 22-250 and 55gr SP that never took a step. I've seen a buddy of mine shoot a doe in the heart with a 7mm Wby Mag that literally blew the heart out of her body 5 ft and the doe continued to live while it ran 300y. I've shot an opposum 3 times in the head with a 20ga slug before it gave up.

Stopping power is an non existent event.

[Ridgerunner665]

There are documented cases of bears being killed with a .22 that had perfect shot placement

That IS NOT what I call proper bullet selection...

[1moa@500]

In reference to the penetration of a 30-06. I once shot a 200lb boar between the eyes with a federal Hi-shok round at around 60rds. It penetrated the skull but did not hold together well. I found several fragments in the neck area just behind the skull. I believe that when velocity drops to 2500 or below bullets start to retain more weight and increase in penetration. That same bullet at 200yds went through both shoulder of a 300 boar leaving a silver dollar size exit wound. I have come t believe that larger bullets at lower velocities that are placed correctly are keys to success. I do not believe in stopping power at all. i want my bullets to penetrate well and give a nice large exit wound that bleeds profusly and aids in tracking an animal if it becomes necessary. If you want stopping power go with a cannon.

[mavracer]

It wasn't even charged with adrenalin, because it had no idea it was going to be shot.
+1
adrenalin makes a huge difference.
I've hunted wild boar quite a bit.you shoot one thats been run by dogs it's much harder to put down than when you still hunt them.

[wyocarp]

You can name all the cartridges in the world you want to and none of them will drop an animal "in their tracks".



Bull...t

[GunTech]

There is no substitute for shot placement.

[freakshow10mm]

Bull...t
Consistently? There is no magic talisman of small arms cartridges.

[goon]

Consistently? There is no magic talisman of small arms cartridges.

I'm inclined to agree.
If such a cartridge existed we'd all be using it and we wouldn't need to have discussions like this one.
Most of the animals I've seen shot did drop right there, but even with small animals there aren't any guarantees.

My cousin shot a rabbit with a .45 ACP JHP from a 5" 1911 one time. It was a solid body hit. The rabbit got up and hobbled away. It was eventually finished off with a .22.
Shot placement aside, a .45 is like a howitzer to a rabbit. It didn't stop it.
If that rabbit had been a 200 pound serial murder he could have ran around with an axe chopping up retirees for another couple of minutes.

Stopping power is a myth.
Bullets punch holes in vital parts and CNS parts and that's what kills stuff.

[rcmodel]

It is also worth noting that no sporting firearm has any "knockdown" power.

If you don't believe it, hang a 150 pound sack of sand on a rope in a tree, and shoot it.

Shoot it with anything you can stand on your hind legs and hold onto.
Handguns, hunting rifles, shotgun slugs, it doesn't matter.

I'll bet you money the sand bag will not be "knocked" anywhere!
It will only swing on the rope very slightly.

If an animal falls flat, as if hit by lightening, it is due to shock to the nervous system causing a loss of muscle control, not "knockdown power".

rcmodel

[freakshow10mm]

Yep.

[bigmike45]

My experiences are as follows:

My favorite handgun hunting caliber and gun are my 7.5" Scoped Ruger Redhawk in 41 magnum. I spent many years handloading to get the "perfect" hunting load. Three nice sized Texas Whitetails and one large Fallow deer. Then my castle came crumbling down around me. The next 2 whitetails and hog I shot all ran off. The fartherest track was over 150 yards with a double lung shot. All shots were either double lung & heart or double lung or just heart and all taken from a broadside position. The longest was the Fallow shot at 84 yards. After the shot he took one step and exhaled and collapsed. As much as I want to call it the "perfect" hunting round, it is not. I am beginning to, like others here, believe there is no one shot stop everytime round. Of course brain or spinal chord shots are almost always one stop shots.

bigmike45

[Gator]

Animals ≠ people

[yenchisks]

August 4th, 2008, 01:23 AM #4
TAB
Senior Member



Join Date: 12-19-07
Posts: 1,322 I don't beleave any chambering has stoping power... I've shot a charging pig with a 30-06 at close range and had the bullets fail to pentrait its skull.

rubber bullets don't work.;)

[MCgunner]

You have to HIT the scull to penetrate it. ROFL! .30-06 bounces off skull, eh? Helluva hog, there.

[rcmodel]

Hogrannosaurus rex?
Hogzilla?

:D

rcmodel

[Conqueror]

3 deer shot with a 45 ACP...all 3 dropped within 30 yards, all one shot kills (1 was dead before he hit the ground...dropped in his tracks), at ranges from 15 to 45 yards. The ammo used was factory loaded Remington 230 grain Golden Sabres and the pistol is a Les Baer stainless Stinger (4.25 inch barrel on an officers frame)...there is a pretty good sized thread over on 1911forum about it...Its called "I killed a deer with a 230 grain Golden Sabre"...

I have seen deer hit good with a 270, 30-06, 308, Etc. run farther than that...SHOT PLACEMENT IS STOPPING POWER.
I'm not sure how you can make that post and then say you believe in stopping power. Would you be happy if you shot an attacking criminal and he could still run 30 yards? Unless you shot him from 31 yards away he would be stabbing you in the face momentarily.

[Master of Arms]

I don`t know what you guys have been shooting or what you`ve been shooting at but there is a such thing as stopping power. You know, when you pop a deer at 220 yards or so and you see him get knocked for a flip, thats stopping power.

When you shoot that hog with a "BOW" and land that perfect neck shot and the hog never untracks himself, Stopping power.

When you shot that bear and the shot knocked him on his side, stopping power.

Placement works along side of stopping power but you can have one without the other. Especially since we`re talkin about humans here, are you kidding??? One shot with a .444, 45-70, .44 magnum, 30-06, .300 win mag etc.etc.etc. is going to STOP whoever gets hit with any of those calibers and many more, adrenalin or no adrenalin.

[Gator]

One shot with a .444, 45-70, .44 magnum, 30-06, .300 win mag etc.etc.etc. is going to STOP whoever gets hit with any of those calibers and many more, adrenalin or no adrenalin.

Tell that to the Chicago cop I know who took four .44 mags in the chest and still returned fire. Unless you get a CNS hit, there is no guarantee of anything.

[Master of Arms]

Chicago cop

Bullet proof vest
It takes around 700 pounds per square inch to knock an average adult male down.
A hornady 12 SST slug has 2196 ft/pds of energy at 50 yards

A 180 grain.40 s&w has about 960 ft/pds of energy @ 50

A 175 grain 45 has about 980 ft/pds of energy @ 50

A 125 grain SP .357 mag has about 1300 ft/pds of energy @ 50

A 250 grain 44 mag has about 1400 ft/pds of energy @ 50

A 180 grain SP .300 mag has 3200 ft/pds @ 100 yards

A 400 grain 45-70 has about 1280 ft/pds @ 100

A 500 grain 458 lott has about 4537 ft/pds @ 1oo.


Though a well placed shot would end the attackers advance instantly, some of the smaller and more average rounds carry more than enough energy and the heavier calibers would no doubt handle the job with poor shot placement as they have the potential to remove entire limbs.

[Plink]

I haven't shot all that many deer with a handgun and it was always with a .44 mag when I did. However, I have spent the better part of 15 years using hundreds of hogs in East Texas as living ballistic testing medium for defense caliber handguns ranging from the .380 to .45 ACP.

The one thing I learned is something we all know anyway if we have paid attention to the various shooting reports throughout the decades. That is that there's only 2 really important things: shot placement and penetration. No matter how much "energy" the hogs (or perps...read the reports yourself) have taken. If the bullet didn't make it into anything immediately vital, whether through poor shot placement or poor cartridge/load choice, the target didn't go down immediately. It didn't matter if they absorbed 300 ft lbs., or 3000.

This was especially evident in hogs shot with low powered rounds or higher powered rounds using light for their caliber bullets. I wasn't able to tell the difference between a .38 Super 147 grain hollowpoint or a .45 ACP 230 grainer HP, if the shots went into the vitals.

[Gator]

Quote: Chicago cop

Bullet proof vest

No vest, he was undercover at the time. He has some impressive scars as a reminder of the encounter.

[Geno]

Two, single-shot kills from a Thompson/Center Encore pistol. The first hunt with a .444 Marlin. The second hunt was with a .45-70 Gov't. Both calibers dropped Russian boars faster and harder than 2 shots from my Sauer 202 Safari .375 H&H Mag with 300 grain Noslers.

[Master of Arms]

No vest,
4 shots in the chest with a 44 mag without wearing a vest????? and he di what???? Where is this information posted? Not callin you out, just like to see it.
This was especially evident in hogs
I`d say that a 300 pound wild boar would be "tougher" than a human. I thought that the reference of humans is what we were talking about. But since we`re talkin hogs. I`ve got a video on hog hunting and out of the 8 kills on the video, 7 were dropped like a rock and he was using a bow. A .300 mag, 300 ultra mag, 458, etc would disassemble a hog into quarters.

[freakshow10mm]

It takes around 700 pounds per square inch to knock an average adult male down.
A hornady 12 SST slug has 2196 ft/pds of energy at 50 yards

A 180 grain.40 s&w has about 960 ft/pds of energy @ 50

A 175 grain 45 has about 980 ft/pds of energy @ 50

A 125 grain SP .357 mag has about 1300 ft/pds of energy @ 50

A 250 grain 44 mag has about 1400 ft/pds of energy @ 50

A 180 grain SP .300 mag has 3200 ft/pds @ 100 yards

A 400 grain 45-70 has about 1280 ft/pds @ 100

A 500 grain 458 lott has about 4537 ft/pds @ 1oo.
No cartridge is capable of physically moving a body.

[HB]

Animals ≠ people
PCP and/or Crank + Raccoon= Bad Combo

Here are my limited observations.

Deer #1:

Deer running towards a double-stand in which my uncle and I are seated. The deer had just been shot at by a buddy a hundred or so yards away, but suddenly stops at 25 yards and just stares down the trail. I took a shot, hitting him in his lungs, my uncle shoots about a 1/2 second latter, hitting the deer in the shoulders. The deer "hunched up" and ran directly toward our stand when I fired a shot straight down hitting the deer in the hoof :banghead:. The deer crashed into the deerstand where he bled out. Needless to say, there was way to much shooting, but it was his first deer in 20 years and my first deer ever so neither one of us wanted him to make it very far. So it took 3 shots to stop this deer, because none of them hit CNS.

Deer #2:

Basically just saw a deer at 30 yards, took a neck shot, and he just dropped. End of story, one 30-30 bullet to the neck.

From my experinces, I'd say stopping power is BS. It's shot placement. But It can depend on the situation. On the first deer, he was going full speed, and presumably his veins were surging with adrenilin. The second deer was just meandering through. I would think that if somebody came into your house guns blazing, it is possible that it would take more shots to put him down.

On the other hand, I think if you shot a guy robbing a 7-11 and he didn't know you were there:uhoh:, even if you hit him in the arm, he might go down.

Most of the time, the guy jacking the 7-11 has NO intention of shooting anybody, but the guy breaking into your house when he knows you are home probably wants to KILL you.

Physiology+Situation +Placment is more important than Power.

HB

[goon]

Animals ≠ people
Not entirely the same but they're pretty damn close in many cases.
If you know where the lungs are in a cat I bet you could find them in a person too. Same for the spleen, liver, intestines, etc.
In some cases, I'd say animals are tougher but humans also survive some incredible injuries and make full recoveries.

When you shoot that hog with a "BOW" and land that perfect neck shot and the hog never untracks himself, Stopping power.

When you shot that bear and the shot knocked him on his side, stopping power.

Placement works along side of stopping power but you can have one without the other. Especially since we`re talkin about humans here, are you kidding??? One shot with a .444, 45-70, .44 magnum, 30-06, .300 win mag etc.etc.etc. is going to STOP whoever gets hit with any of those calibers and many more, adrenalin or no adrenalin.

What you're talking about isn't what's commonly referred to as "stopping power".
What you're referring to is successful shot placement with a projectile of adequate power.
If you put a round through the base of the skull on a deer it's going to stop right there. You stop the signals traveling down the spinal cord and you stop the action from happening.
If you put that same round through the Aorta, the heart won't be able to circulate blood to the body tissues and brain. EVENTUALLY, the cells won't be able to function and the animal will collapse and die.
But when you shoot that hog with your bow or put a bullet into that bear, you're screwing up the animal's body and causing it to no longer be able to sustain itself. Naturally, the animal will fall down and die. But it doesn't really have anything to do with energy being transferred into something.
The swinging sandbag that rcmodel mentions is a good example and he's right - a solid impact from most rounds won't even move a 50 pound sandbag. If it did, a sandbag wouldn't be of much use for cover.
I used to shoot steel silouhette targets and they taught me the same thing. A 40 pound steel target taking a direct hit from a SP .308 hunting round does not do several backflips and come to rest fifty feet back in the weeds. It just falls over.
There are also some demonstrations around of a guy taking double taps from a FAL in the chest to demonstrate how effective a bulletproof vest is. IIRC, he stands on one foot while getting hit with .308 rounds and he doesn't fall over.
Last is my own experience.
I have seen deer hit through the chest cavity with full power hunting rounds take off running. I have seen them run hundreds of yards bleeding from both sides, sucking chest wounds all around. I've seen one run almost a hundred yards after taking a .35 Remington to the heart. When it was cleaned up it didn't have a heart left. I saw one that my dad shot at the base of the skull fall down right there, then stand back up for a few seconds before falling over again.
Sure, they all did die eventually and one of them was dead without even knowing it.
But I know that a .300 Savage, .30'06, or .35 Remington can't guarantee immediate results on impact. They just can't.

Best solution if you want stopping power - get as close as your sneaky little legs can get you and shoot it in the head.
Then hope it doesn't pull a Phineas Gage on you.

[Ridgerunner665]

No cartridge is capable of physically moving a body.

I think what he was trying to say was this...remember, he mentioned "VEST".

If they don't penetrate they could knock a man down...think about it this way...a 405 grain bullet from a 45-70 into a vest, that will push you back a ways with its momentum alone.

[Master of Arms]

No cartridge is capable of physically moving a body
WWwhhhaaattt???? lolololol
Wanna bet?
Not gonna argue this one further.

[Feanaro]

a 405 grain bullet from a 45-70 into a vest, that will push you back a ways with its momentum alone.

If this were so, you'd be sitting on your fanny everytime you touched one off or you'd at least have a very sore shoulder. Momentum has to be conserved, so whatever momentum the bullet has, the gun must also have.

[freakshow10mm]

WWwhhhaaattt???? lolololol
Wanna bet?
Not gonna argue this one further.
Yes. I've shot test medium before many times. I've tested sand filled bags hung in the air and my uncle and I shot them with medium and big bore rifles such as the 35 Whelen, 358 Norma Mag, 375 H&H Mag, 416 Remington and Rigby. The sand bag never moved.

If a cartridge moved a body, the shooter would also be moved the same distance.

A cartridge will not physically move a game animal back or make it flip, etc. I've heard stories, and continue to hear stories, of hunters shooting deer and pushing them back 10 feet. BS. That's called reaction to the shot.

I worked for the WI DNR for a spell during the initial phases of the CWD cull. I did it for perhaps 4 months and killed over a hundred deer with various cartridges ranging from 223 to the 350 Rem Mag to the 375 Holland. No deer ever moved back, even when struck with the Holland's 4000+fpe at close range.

[The Bushmaster]

Doc2005...And all those that are trying to inject rifles into this string...I believe we are discussing handguns that expell pistol or revolver ammunition. Not cut down rifles that expell rifle ammunition...Try to stay on topic...Please...?

[HB]

Agreed, even MythBusters (who are not the most though "scientists") showed this. They shot a dead pig with a vest from .38's to full-auto Thompsons and 12 gauge slugs. The pig just hung there. The rig they used was about as good as it gets to test it.

HB

[freakshow10mm]

And all those that are trying to inject rifles into this string...I believe we are discussing handguns that expell pistol or revolver ammunition. Not cut down rifles that expell rifle ammunition...Try to stay on topic...Please...?
The point I'm making is that people think that handguns cartridges can physically move a body, but rifle cartridges with a lot more KE than any handgun cartridge cannot move a body, then that argument is moot.

[HGUNHNTR]

It all boils down to doing enough damage to the animals vital organs to cause it to die quickly. Any round capable of penetrating to the vitals, and carries at least a moderate amount of mass, lets say 150 grains or better, will have a great chance of stopping the animal quickly. In my experiences with non dangerous game animals this applies to every situation I have been in. If I hit the animal in an area that will allow the bullet to do its thing, the animal dies quickly. "Knockdown Power" is a marketing term, not a scientific one.

[vanilla_gorilla]

Originally posted by Master of Arms:

WWwhhhaaattt???? lolololol
Wanna bet?
Not gonna argue this one further.

This man disagrees with you and says you don't know what you're talking about. Then he proves it. ;)

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=310_1212367354

[R.W.Dale]

It takes around 700 pounds per square inch to knock an average adult male down.


HA HA HA LOL! Whatever dude! any gun powerful enough to knock the target down will knock the shooter down as well.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=88f_1176635043

we've all seen this video before and while the medic!did hit the ground he also got right back up after taking a 7.62x54R light ball to the trauma plate. That's well over 2000 ft lbs of energy! Now do you really think a paltry .40 with only 400 ft lbs of energy will bowl a man over:rolleyes:


A 180 grain.40 s&w has about 960 ft/pds of energy @ 50 nope try only
400 at the MUZZLE

A 175 grain 45 has about 980 ft/pds of energy @ 50



who makes 175 grn .45??????

A 125 grain SP .357 mag has about 1300 ft/pds of energy @ 50

again only 625 at the muzzle


A 250 grain 44 mag has about 1400 ft/pds of energy @ 50

only 850 here

A 180 grain SP .300 mag has 3200 ft/pds @ 100 yards

try 2274


A 400 grain 45-70 has about 1280 ft/pds @ 100

1you actually got close on this one the real number for a rem 405g sp at 100 is 168

A 500 grain 458 lott has about 4537 ft/pds @ 1oo.

Of course this is assuming that PDS isn't some new form of measurement and you ment to use LBS

Where does a person buy this magic ammo that actually accelerates after leaving the muzzle

[goon]

Doc2005...And all those that are trying to inject rifles into this string...I believe we are discussing handguns that expell pistol or revolver ammunition. Not cut down rifles that expell rifle ammunition...Try to stay on topic...Please...?

It's a natural progression to bring rifles into the equation when we start talking about "stopping power".
The OP asked if those who had hunted with handguns believed in stopping power. Many of us who have hunted only with full power centerfire rifles have commented that even having killed animals with our .308's and '06's that are far more powerful than most handguns ever thought about being, we still don't believe in it.
The rationale being that if an '06 won't kill an animal on the spot every single time, what chance does a "measly" .44 Magnum have of doing it?

Sorry for helping get the thread sort of off topic, but it is relevant.
And after all, this is the internet.
These things happen. :D

[45crittergitter]

Ask the deer whose nearly-whole lung was left hanging on a bush on the other side.... from one handgun shot.

[Master of Arms]

AMMUNITION BALLISTICS FOR: .357 Magnum

BULLET BARREL
LENGTH VELOCITY (fps) ENERGY 30 yd.
MIDRANGE
CARTRIDGE WT. TYPE MFG (INCHES) MUZZ. 50 YDS. MUZZ. 50 YDS. TRAIL
.357 Magnum 80 Safety (CB) 4.0 1800 1418 575 357 0.2
100 PB (CB) N/A 1600 1295 568 373 0.2
109 No. 9 Shot (C) V4 1000 - - - -
110 JHP (CB) N/A 1500 1233 550 372 0.5
110 JHP (S) V4 1295 1094 410 292 0.8
125 JHP (BH) V8 1500 1314 624 479 0.5
125 JHP (R) V4 1220 1095 413 333 0.8
125 JHP (S) V4 1450 1240 583 376 0.6
125 JSP (H) V8 1500 1311 624 477 0.6
125 JSP (R) V4 1450 1240 584 427 0.2
125 WC-JFP (W) V4 1370 1183 521 389 0.7
130 JHP (F) V4 1300 1130 490 370 0.7
140 JHP (H) V8 1400 1249 609 485 0.6
140 JHP (CB) N/A 1325 1182 546 434 0.6
142 FMJ (Fi) V6 1420 1247 650 491 0.6
145 JHP (W) V4 1290 1155 535 428 0.8
148 JHP (Fi) V6 1500 1328 720 580 0.8
150 JHP (P) N/A 1234 1093 507 398 0.8
150 JHP (P) N/A 1205 1069 484 381 0.8
158 JHP (F) V4 1240 1100 535 430 0.8
158 JHP (S) V4 1250 1134 548 451 0.8
158 JHP (S) V4 1235 1104 535 428 0.8
158 JHP (N) N/A 1214 1110 515 431 0.8
158 FMJ (N) N/A 1214 1105 515 427 0.8
158 FMJ (SB) 7.5 1394 1246 682 545 0.6
158 JHP (L) 8.25 1542 1359 831 646 0.2
158 JSP (SB) 7.5 1394 1246 682 545 0.6
158 JSP (H) V8 1250 1147 548 461 0.8
158 JSP (S) V4 1240 1100 535 430 0.8
158 JSP (S) V4 1235 1104 535 428 0.8
158 JSP (P) N/A 1120 1078 505 408 0.8
158 FMJ-FN (MT) V4 1235 1118 535 438 0.8
158 JHP (C) V4 1150 1104 464 428 0.8
158 LSW (S) V4 1235 1104 535 428 0.8
158 LSW (BH) V8 1050 971 387 331 1.0
165 JHP (R) V4 1290 1189 610 518 0.7
180 JHP (W) V4 1180 1088 557 473 0.8
180 JHP (R) V4 1145 1053 524 443 0.9
180 JHP (F) V4 1090 980 475 385 1.0
180 JHP (F) V4 1250 1160 675 535 0.8
200 L (CB) N/A 1200 1106 640 544 0.8

Hey Kroch this is just one page of a ballistic chart from Guns and Ammo which covers the 357 magnum. I posted the EXACT information from this website. The numbers that you have up there are really way off. Try to check and see if you misread or either contact Guns and Ammo and let them know that they are ignorant of ballistics. Reloading data will be a little different. I`ll not waist anymore space here but they match the reloading chart in my manual and the other ballistic chart that I use. :cool: dude

[mtngunr]

The original post began "Those of you who have hunted with a handgun..."

Not, "those of you who can quote G&A ballistic data,", and G&A gets their data from data suppliers....

Or even, "those of you who have shot perps, deer, etc and flipped them off their feet," whether or not they were wearing a vest and you were using a 375 H&H....

[Z71]

I've done quite a bit of small game hunting with a variety of handguns. Have done some bigger game hunting too , but not enough to really quantify anything.

Yes. It ain't like the movies! and the .45acp is not a .30-06!

Hunting with a handgun will destroy your belief in handgun "stopping power". At least until you get into the magnum class cartridges.

From small game shooting with revolvers and auto's, i would rate the.22lr, .32 auto, .38 Special, .380, 9mm, and .45acp(sorry!) about the same. Hollowpoints are severely over-rated in these calibers. Maybe the animals were too small to absorb the bullet energy, maybe not.

Next step up would be the .357 and .44 magnums, much better if somewhat over potent sometimes. Definately far more effective.

My opinion, don't get mad, just go shoot some rabbits with a .45 acp and see what you think!

[biggiesmalls]

i've dropped a decent sized hog with a .357 in my grandpa's blackhawk. of course he wasn't charging directly at me so i can't vouch 100% for stopping power, but i voted that i trust :)

[R.W.Dale]

Hey Kroch this is just one page of a ballistic chart from Guns and Ammo which covers the 357 magnum. I posted the EXACT information from this website. The numbers that you have up there are really way off. Try to check and see if you misread or either contact Guns and Ammo and let them know that they are ignorant of ballistics. Reloading data will be a little different. I`ll not waist anymore space here but they match the reloading chart in my manual and the other ballistic chart that I use. dude

It took me awhile to notice but Guns And Ammo has the correct numbers

The problem is YOU quoted the VELOCITY figure as ft lbs of energy they aren't the same.

These figures are from Hornady the bold numbers are ft lbs of energy

180grn 40S&W TAP at muzzle 50 then 100yds
950/361 903/326 862/297

357 Mag., 125 gr. JHP/XTP

1500/624 1314/479 1166/377

44 Rem. Mag., 240 gr. JHP/XTP

1350/971 1231/807 1134/685