[jsalcedo]

http://www.post-gazette.com/neigh_city/20030813paintball0813p5.asp

Wednesday, August 13, 2003

By Nate Guidry, Post-Gazette Staff Writer







Three teens with paint-ball guns terrorized children in a small playground in Garfield yesterday afternoon, but two of them ended up shot for real when they then aimed their paint balls at another group of people. Two of the teens also were arrested for drug possession.

Tracy Smedley 19, and a 17-year-old identified only as Ronald were at UPMC Presbyterian last night with gunshot wounds. When they were apprehended, Smedley was carrying heroin and the third teen, Trai Wilson, 18, had crack cocaine and was charged with possession.

All three will also be a cited for carrying loaded paint-ball guns in the vehicle. Except for Smedley, police do not think the names the teens gave are correct.

At around 4 p.m., Pittsburgh police Lt. Philip Dacey said, the three teens, armed with paint-ball guns and wearing helmets and paint-ball vests, drove down North Evaline Street in a white Ford. When they got to Broad Street, they began to pepper the small playground there with paint balls, striking several youngsters.

At that point, Dacey said, the teens turned left on Broad, drove down the street and opened fire on another group of people.

Dacey said one teen told him the trio then turned around and went back to tell the people it was only paint, when someone in the group opened fire with a real gun, riddling the driver's side of the car with more than a dozen bullets.

Dacey said Smedley was shot in the left arm and Ronald was struck in the buttocks. The teens then drove themselves to West Penn Hospital and the two were later transported to UPMC Presbyterian, he said.

A witness, who wanted to be identified only as John, said he phoned 911 after he saw the teens open fire on the playground with the paint balls.

"It sounded like a machine gun," he said. "There were many kids playing in the park. After they finished shooting, the vehicle turned left on Broad. I was on the phone with 911 when I heard the shots from a real gun. Then I saw the vehicle speeding down Broad."

When the teens started spraying the playground with paint balls, 12-year-old Satera Smalls, who was shot in the thigh of her left leg, said she was on the swings.

"I saw the car creeping toward the park," she said. "Then I heard the shots and I ran toward the slide. I felt a sting in my leg and after a few moments it stopped hurting."

Satera, who said there were more than 20 children in the park when the shooting began, said the same vehicle had been circling the park on Monday.

"I'm afraid to let her go back to the park now," said her mother, Cynthia Smalls. "This makes me very upset."

[El Tejon]

We've had more than several of these incidents--teen punks shooting younger kids with paintballs. Sooner or later the punks will get a life-changing lesson in firearms safety, manners, medicine and the criminal law.

[Quartus]

Why is it that I am having a hard time working up sympathy for these scumbags?


Wait for it.... "They didn't mean any harm! They were just having fun! Nobody got hurt until some crazy gun nut started shooting!" :barf:





Sure hope they don't catch the shooter of the real gun. They'll hang him.

[TekChef]

These kids deserve a kick in the head!

"we were just having fun!"
hrmm...ever wonder why paintball players wear eye and ear protection? because a ear or eye hit can BLIND or DEAFEN you!
And you are shooting at kids?

:what:

[Justin]

My first inclination would be to think that this is a case of overkill, but I can recall incidents similar to this in the past where the victims were not so lucky and ended up losing an eye to the ne'er do well's paintball gun.

[OF]

I don't think these kids are your 'average' paintballers. Looks like a couple of heroin and crack addicts came up with a plan for some fun!

Got Stupid?

- Gabe

[AZTOY]

I hope the scumbags are in real pain from being shot!!

I HATE THIS :cuss: ...........

Why do i see me writing to my congress critters in a few year fighting for my right to have a paintball marker.:banghead:

I play paintball, my paintball marker shoots at 280 feet per second. Yes a paintball can blind you or make you deaf. I had a freind get knock out from a paintball to the temple. This why we have the safety gear and barrel plugs.


PAINTBALL MARKER IS PC
PAINTBALL GUN IS NOT:neener:

[C.R.Sam]

Dessert has been served.
Just, that is.

Sam

[pax]

My first inclination would be to think that this is a case of overkill ...
Yeah, that was mine, too.

But when you open the door to violence, you shouldn't be surprised when more violence walks in than you bargained for.

pax

[CWL]

They got what they deserved.

Late 1990's, my coworker got a phone call from his mother, turns out that his brother got hit in one of these paintball drive-bys. He lost lost an eye just because he was walking home from work.

[SoCalGeek]

but two of them ended up shot for real when they then aimed their paint balls at another group of people.

Good. They had that coming. I have a very hard time feeling sorry for somebody who would open fire (even with a paintball gun) on a bunch of little kids. I hope they get locked away for a very very long time.

[Cal4D4]

Real life consequences of just this sorta "fun":

About 12 years ago a few local teens (not considered bad by any account) decided to do a drive by paintballing of the local kids playing in the neighborhood on a summer evening. Whole thing lasted 20 seconds max. A few minor welts and terrorized kiddies. One kid seizure prone ( several gran mal per year in the first few years) from a direct hit on the temple. I saw the whole thing and it went fast. Takes several seconds to realize its paintball and not worse. Shooters' mothers won't talk to me since I pointed out that their sons were lucky no return fire. Cops also didn't like hearing that. Huge lawsuit/settlement to the girl.

[joyadecarolina]

we must ban the paintball guns...

for the little chitlins.

[Zundfolge]

Sure hope they don't catch the shooter of the real gun. They'll hang him.

That was my first thought, but after stewing on it for a bit, I'd put my money on the "real gun" shooter being some gang banger punk himself and not one of "us". I'd just as soon that guy be off the streets too.


Still ... I'm having a hard time feeling sorry for the punk who got shot.

[goon]

It doesn't suprise me that someone could mistake the sound of a paintball gun for the sound of a real gun.
I know from experience that when the adrenaline is pumping, the sound of a rifle is alot different. Fire on the wrong guy who has the wrong experience and you might just get what they got.
I just hope they don't catch the guy who shot those kids.
They got what they deserved.
Maybe when they heal, they will learn to respect others.

[Quartus]

Yeah, Zundfolge, you're probably right. Still, he didn't commit any crime THIS time, IMO.

[Kobun]

Seems like return fire is a legal option, if deadly force is legal when faced with a threat of death or grave bodily harm.
Loosing your sight, or being hit in the temple sure seems like grave bodily harm to me.

[.45Ruger]

First rule of a gun fight, bring a gun, welll they sorta got it right.

[Zundfolge]

I hope the shooter was a gang banger type and I hope he's caught ... otherwise, despite how we feel about the shooting in this situation, if the shooter is not shown to be a criminal then his actions will taint the rest of us law abiding gun owners.

[seeker_two]

I wonder how legal it would be to return fire on these :cuss: -heads with Simunitions...

"Honest, officer. I thought they were part of the paintball game..." :evil:

[LiquidTension]

It's possible that the shooter of the real gun WAS one of "us." Think about it - more than a dozen bullet holes in the car, which was moving. If gang bangers are that accurate, we're in trouble. Sounds like someone that had practiced a little....

[Beav]

It goes without saying, but it would be nice to have asked them if they would have went on their paintball terror spree if they knew their victims weren't defenseless. ;)

[jsalcedo]

Let me ask you guys,

If you were in the playground with your little ones and paintballs started flying, kids dropping, screaming in pain and terror and you had your CCW with a clear shot at the car full of assailants.....


What would you do?

[Quartus]

Good question. If you KNEW it was "just" paintball, the legalities might be a bit complicated.


But I think I'd be returning fire before I took time to see the paint splatters.


Shoot at MY kids? Shoulda seen what happened when a seminar leader just used a threat to my daughter as an ILLUSTRATION. I didn't actually DO anything, but he did back up a step, then apologized.

[greyhound]

more than a dozen bullet holes in the car, which was moving.

Unless someone just happened to be totin' a full auto AK/AR to watch their kids swing on the swingset.:o

What, that sounds kinda extreme?:D

[4v50 Gary]

Mess wit folks and expect to be messed wit. They were stupid and got their medicine.

[DragonRider]

If I had kids, I would probably charge and engage, with the hope of taking the fire off the kids.

Again, lots of factors to consider, and I dont know if I would do the above action. But my background of being a coach and taking groups of kids on numerous trips, my watching over them is like a lion watching over the rest of the pride....

[goon]

OK then.
You are standing there next to your kids when you hear this "THUMP, THUMP, THUMP" . You hear things whizzing past your head and you hear kids screaming. You see red splotches on their clothing.
You have your Glock tucked into the small of your back.
Would you return fire?
I might.
If I knew they were paintballs, that might be different.
But if you thought you were being shot at...

[Standing Wolf]

Never show up for a gun fight with a paint ball gun.

[JohnKSa]

Who here can give us pointers on how to immediately tell the difference between silenced weapon fire and a paintball gun?

Who here can tell everyone how to instantly evaluate a situation and determine that what's being shot isn't a real gun? Especially shooters who may have never heard gunfire without hearing protection before.

I think the shooter did exactly right.

I think the paintballers got exactly what they deserved.

I think the next paintball commandos might think twice before they decide terrorizing playgrounds is cool.

I think that the people who think they could accurately figure out what was happening fast enough to realize that they weren't in immediately life threatening danger are probably fooling themselves.

[Marko Kloos]

Unless someone just happened to be totin' a full auto AK/AR to watch their kids swing on the swingset.

What, that sounds kinda extreme?

Hey, in my ideal world, MP5-armed parents watch over their kids on the playground. Guess what the abduction and child molestation rate in that world would be?

Of course, in that happy world you'll also see kids on the way to (private) school with stylish Skorpions or .410 autoloading scatterguns slung over their shoulders, complete with junior-sized stocks and in fun designer colors. All gun makers would compete for the young market, and you'd see things like "Hello Kitty" Walther P22s, and Spongebob Squarepants KelTec P32s.

[Nightfall]

For those of you not familiar with paintball, you have to chronograph and adjust most paintball guns to get them to a safe speed of 280 or so. Somehow I doubt these drug addicts did a safety check before they went shooting.

That said, I have a half inch scar on my left arm from a paintball hit from a semi-hot gun at about 20 feet away. I shudder to think of what a hot paintball gun would do to a small child if hit in the wrong place. As said before, even a hit from a gun chronoed at 280 can take your eyesight or hearing without a mask.

With these type of consequences in mind, how many of you wouldn't return fire at two or three of these guys using paintball guns to hose down little kids? Especially when some paint guns can be shot at rates of 10+ balls a second?

[Nightfall]

Of course, in that happy world you'll also see kids on the way to (private) school with stylish Skorpions or .410 autoloading scatterguns slung over their shoulders, complete with junior-sized stocks and in fun designer colors. All gun makers would compete for the young market, and you'd see things like "Hello Kitty" Walther P22s, and Spongebob Squarepants KelTec P32s.

Somewhere in the world, an anti just died of a heart attack...

[Quartus]

And this would be a problem..... Why?



:D




Actually, in a perfect world, you wouildn't NEED to guard your kids at the playground because we'd have HUNG all those liberal judges that let our country turn into a haven for child molesters.

And the politicians that appointed them.

[seeker_two]

Somewhere in the world, an anti just died of a heart attack...

Keep up the good work, Marko...;)

[greyhound]

Somewhere in the world, an anti just died of a heart attack...

...but its OK, because now his family can sue McDonalds and its fatty food for making his heart weak.:rolleyes:

[zahc]

Assault with intent to main IMO, and I would've returned fire if i knew they were paintballs. Paintballs are no joke.

telling paintball markers from guns-You can see paintballs in flight. Markers have hoppers air hoses gas tanks and such. It's pretty obvious on sight. Still not on sound.

[Phyphor]

That presumes you can actually see the entire marker. During a driveby, it's not hard to imagine that only the barrel of the marker(s) were protruding from the vehicle. This, plus the fact that the vehicle was moving, would be pretty hard NOT to over react to.

[TheeBadOne]

Who here can give us pointers on how to immediately tell the difference between silenced weapon fire and a paintball gun?

Who here can tell everyone how to instantly evaluate a situation and determine that what's being shot isn't a real gun? Especially shooters who may have never heard gunfire without hearing protection before.

I think the shooter did exactly right.

I think the paintballers got exactly what they deserved.

I think the next paintball commandos might think twice before they decide terrorizing playgrounds is cool.

I think that the people who think they could accurately figure out what was happening fast enough to realize that they weren't in immediately life threatening danger are probably fooling themselves.
I'm going to save this for the next LEO flame ;)

[JohnKSa]

I'm going to save this for the next LEO flame
Objecting to numerous cut & paste obits is not an "LEO flame." ;)

[Gewehr98]

He might just report your post to a moderator. I've already been thumped a couple times. For some reason he thinks I'm also Anti-LEO, simply because I don't think THR should be "DeadCopObits.com". Funny thing is, he doesn't know me from Adam, otherwise he'd know there's a strong history of law enforcement types in my family, never mind the fact that I'm also being courted by the ATF for a post-military-retirement career. :scrutiny:

[444]

"I don't think these kids are your 'average' paintballers."
I don't think this is your average neighborhood either . It sounds to me like a rough inter-city neighborhood. And the guy doing the real shooting would have "bus a cap" on those guys whether he knew it was a paintball gun or not just because they actin a fool. And nobody seen nutin.

[pax]

Gewehr, check your PMs.

Believe it or not, your friendly moderators actually read the board themselves and are perfectly capable of deciding for themselves what is, and is not, over the line. Nobody needs to 'tattle' in order for bellyaching and namecalling to come to the moderators' attention!

Everyone else, please stick to the topic, or the thread will need to be closed for drift.

pax

[TheeBadOne]

It's kind of suprising this type of thing doesn't happen more often as paintball guns are misused like this all over the country. :uhoh:

[Zundfolge]

telling paintball markers from guns-You can see paintballs in flight. Markers have hoppers air hoses gas tanks and such. It's pretty obvious on sight.

believe it or not THIS is a paintball gun ...

http://www.getrealpaintball.com/images/at4_car.jpg

So is this ...

http://www.helenapaintball.com/kp2.jpg


There are others that look a lot like real firearms.


If I don't know you, and I'm on the street somewhere, don't point one at me unless you want to see the business end of whatever I'm carrying (which will be smaller then .62cal but will hit a LOT harder).

[AZTOY]

Zundfolge

OMG

Were did you find the old paintball shot gun!! That was my first real paintball gun and i used it as a down payment on a VM-68 Mag.


Thank you for bring back some great times!!:D

[Okiecruffler]

I've taken care of enough small children who were shot by paintball guns by teens who were "Just out having fun". If I were in the area there would have been a few more holes in that vehicle.

[swingset]

If you were on the playground, saw guns out the window and hear kids yelling in pain, I bet half this forum would have been dropping brass in a heartbeat....and with good reason.

Not saying these kids deserve death, but if you stand in water and play with an outlet, you can't be too surprised when things go sour.

[DMK]

But when you open the door to violence, you shouldn't be surprised when more violence walks in than you bargained for. I like this PAX.

Too many people out there stirring up trouble they aren't prepared for. And this doesn't only apply to young punks either.

[Sgt]

Frankly, I don't understand the argument here......

Anyone and I mean anyone who shoots at my kids? Get real, I wouldn't think twice about returning fire.

I've been shot at.....it didn't matter that they were a hundred yards away with a shotgun, they were doing it on purpose!!! If I'd have been armed then.....they'd be plant food now...

Sgt

[jimpeel]

That was my first thought, but after stewing on it for a bit, I'd put my money on the "real gun" shooter being some gang banger punk himself and not one of "us". I'd just as soon that guy be off the streets too.

I hope the shooter was a gang banger type and I hope he's caught ...

I find it interesting that some of those assembled here are so adamantly opposed to “gang bangers” having a firearm for self defense. If the guy was carrying a firearm only for self-defense, against other more aberrant persons bent on his destruction; why should he be denied that defense?

Personally, I have no problem with any person carrying a firearm as long as it is only carried for self-defense. It is at the point that they decide to do something offensive that I get upset.

I don’t particularly have any use for, nor do I particularly have any liking of, gangsters; regardless of stripe. If Black members of the Crips or Bloods are walking down the street, and a load of KKK members starts blasting away at them, are they entitled to defend themselves; or are they supposed to say “Yassuh, mistuh Klansman. You jes gwan 'head an shoot me.”?

[444]

Jim, you have a very interesting take on things.

[yy]

If I see kids falling down and screaming from a DRIVE BY shooting, I'd have my CCW out (after taking cover I hope).

THAT car was coming back, likely for a second round of attack, so you bet the appropriate reaction is to fire back.

It's not like the assailants flew a flag that told all bystanders that they were 'only' shooting paint balls...

Remember, self defense is to react to perceived threat of death or grave bodily harm. The shooter may get grilled by the court system, but this sounds like a good shoot UNLESS someone proves the shooter KNEW the assailants were shooting paintballs.

just my $.02

[Kendra Pacelli]

If I had my child there, and I was armed, legally, and seeing children falling and crying from the pain (Paint balls hurt like hell) I would probably have done the same thing. However, gun safety comes into play and you should always assess your surroundings. Hard one, however, if my child I were in that situation, I don't think logic would have come to play. I would have run after the bastards in full force. Think about the consequences later.


How Stupid. Yeah, I don't care if the dude was a gang banger, I hope he is not caught, and the little punks deserved what they got!

MHO

[M2HMGHB]

If I remember right there have been cases of perps using frozen paintballs. Not sure if that would work or the damage it would do.................. I do remember a drive by paintball shooting at a mall nearby, no injuries just a coat ruined and some splatters on a car.

[Molly]

Too bad it was just a park full of local kids. Rather, imaging it were a TFL or THR get-together! I played PB for a long time, both over and under the normal 280 fps, and I can assure you that a PB could wound a kid very badly in many many ways, including fatally with a direct hit to the throat at 400 fps, for example.

I'd have shot too.

[jimpeel]

Jim, you have a very interesting take on things.Just the Constitutionalist in me coming out. Selective disarmament of those we don't believe should be armed works both ways. HCI believes those people should be us.

The problem I have is that those who are determined to be "unworthy" of firearms ownership, including ex-felons (heavy emphasis on the "ex"), are left to their own devices; as long as those devices don't include a firearm.

The courts have ruled that the police have no duty to protect any individual or prevent any crime. The police, who have no such duty, are the only recourse an ex-felon has against a crimiinal act being perpetrated against him. If they refuse to show up, his duty is to be victimized, injured, or killed.

A great example of this mindset was discussed here:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=78425

If the guy hadn't grabbed the gun and shot the BGs, five people would be dead. Pursuant to what the parole board did, that result would have been preferable as he had a duty not to touch the firearm and thus he had a duty to die and allow the rest of the people in that apartment to die as well.

[spacemanspiff]

With these type of consequences in mind, how many of you wouldn't return fire at two or three of these guys using paintball guns to hose down little kids? Especially when some paint guns can be shot at rates of 10+ balls a second?

i know an immature punk that does shoot people at random with paintballs from his vehicle. well, now he doesnt have a car, so the streets are a little safer. he joked one time about shooting me with one (or more i suppose) if he saw me walking, i told him to expect return fire.
a couple years ago there was some teenagers that were shooting frozen paintballs at drunk natives downtown. they were stupid enough to videotape the action. prosecutors called it a "hate crime" since they targeted only native alaskans. iirc they got off with probation and community service.