[Newton]

I just got through threading a cautionary thread on Gunboards.com AK/SKS forum regarding the removal of bayonets and grenade launchers from the Yugo SKS that are everywhere right now, one of which I have myself.

According to the BATF, it seems the removal of parts from the YUGO removes it from the C&R category and makes it illegal. One guy tells of a story of a shooter who was reported by someone at his local range for fitting a scope to his SKS, the BATF invited him to come in for a chat :uhoh:

Link:

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=427

It's hilarious that it's illegal to take the bayonet off a Yugo, and ilegal to put one ON a Chinese.

What the Hell is going on with these regulations, they seem ridiculous and bureaucratic, innocent shooters are being made felons for no apparent reason. Is the NRA doing anythng about these meaningless restrictions, it would make much more sense to mandate removal of the grenade launchers before sale, I wouldn't like it, but it would at least make more sense.

If this thread would be better placed in Legal, please feel free to transfer.

Thanks

Newton

[Hkmp5sd]

Looks like a bunch of confused people over there. You can make mods to a C&R SKS. Yes, it does remove it from the C&R list, but as long as you do not create a gun that is illegal for importation, you're fine.

In fact, here is a letter from ATF stating you can thread the barrel and add a suppressor if you desire.
A Russian SKS rifle in original military configuration, having a bayonet lug and bayonet, fixed stock, and non-detachable 10 round magazine, which was modified by threading the barrel for a firearm silencer, would not be in violation of section 922(r). Assembly of certain other components such as a folding stock or detachable magazine, which would prohibit the firearm from importation, would be in violation of section 922(r).

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter4.txt

PS. Removing the bayonet does not make it illegal.

[Newton]

Thanks for the clarification, but I'm going to leave mine stock anyway, can't be too careful these days.

[DMK]

It's subject to interpretation and of course you should assume that the BATF is going to interpret the regs in the strictest sense unless you have a letter from their tech department stating that what you want to do is legal.

My take on it is this: The Yugo 59/66 has a few things that mortal citizens normally would not be allowed to own on a semi-auto rifle. These are are a bayonette, night sights, and a grenade launcher. This rifle is allowed for importation because of it was decided that it's a Curio or Relic (curio in this case, since they aren't that old). In the strictest interpretation of the regs, if you remove one of these items, the rifle is no longer in it's original military configuration and thereby loses it's C&R status. That would make the rifle inimportable and illegal. To get around that, you must remove all the other "evil features" that would prevent the rifle from being getting approval for importation without being a C&R.

Now, here's the rub: By state law, the Yugo 59/66 SKS is allowed for sale in California only if the grenade launcher is permanently removed. Theoretically this voids the rifle's C&R status. However, the BATF allows resellers to do this(I believe they are still C&R elidgable). I guess that in a fleeting moment of compassion and common sense they are following the spirit of the law instead of the letter of the law for this situation.


Also keep in mind, if you unscrew the mounting hardware, take the bayonette off the rifle and unscrew the GL, you are not making permanent modifications. Otherwise you'd be breaking the law everytime you service it. Keep the bayo, GL, with all associated hardware and sell it with the rifle if you ever dispose of it.

[Hkmp5sd]

This rifle is allowed for importation because of it was decided that it's a Curio or Relic (curio in this case, since they aren't that old).

The rifle is allowed to be imported with the bayonet and grenade launcher because it is a C&R. If the bayonet and launcher are not present, the rifle loses it's C&R status, but can be imported as a modern rifle. The Norinco SKS is a newly manufactured rifle that merely had to remove the bayonet to be legal for importation since 1989. Since it can be imported in this configuration, it is legal to do the same to any rifle already in the country. The only thing you can not do is modify the gun into a configuration that would make it illegal for importation. That essentially means you may not install a folding stock or convert it to use detachable magazines.

[Sir Galahad]

On the "story" about the guy who fitted a scope to his SKS and attracted attention of the BATFE, that is complete BS. Scopes do not fall under any of the "assault" laws. Scopes are sporting devices that can be fitted to any number of weapons without violating any laws EXCEPT some GAME laws in SOME states that forbid scopes during their muzzleloader hunting season but only IF it is on the weapon you are hunting with at that time. It's stories like that which get circulated and people get all worked up over nothing. There are plenty of things to be angry about regarding the "assault" laws without inventing things. A SAR-1 comes and all Saigas come with AK scope rails and people put scopes on them all the time. SKS scope mounts are sold all over the place. Whoever says scoping a SKS is illegal needs to get his head out of his 4thPOC.

[DMK]

The Norinco SKS is a newly manufactured rifle that merely had to remove the bayonet to be legal for importation since 1989. Since it can be imported in this configuration, it is legal to do the same to any rifle already in the country. The only thing you can not do is modify the gun into a configuration that would make it illegal for importation. True, except that the bayonette is the only evil feature on the Norinco. The Yugo 59/66 has three evil features: The bayonette, night sights and the grenade launcher. If you permanently remove the bayonette lug, it could be argued that the rifle is no longer C&R elidgable. Left with the grenade launcher and/or night sights it could be considered in violation of 9.22r.

[Chipperman]

I was under the impression that night sites were considered "military style" but were not actually one of the evil features banned under 922r.

Is this not correct?

[Hkmp5sd]

Unlike "semiautomatic assualt weapons," the SKS does not have a given number "evil features" that, when added up, prevent its importation. The 1989 report for suitability for importation requires that a rifle must be judged in its totality to determine if it meets the "sporting" requirements for importation.

The newly manufactured SKSs were deemed appropriate for importation as long as the bayonet was not attached. It did not require the removal of the bayonet lug as part of that determination. No new manufactured SKS had a grenade launcher.

The C&R SKSs were allowed for import with military features due to their collectability. If it is altered from its original configuration, it must meet the same criteria as the new SKS imports. That means no bayonet, no folding stock and no detachable magazine. AFAIK, ATF has never made a ruling on the need to remove the grenade launcher, if applicable, when modifying C&R SKSs from their original configuration.

And straight from the horses mouth, here is what ATF has said are some LEGAL MODIFICATIONS you can make to your SKS:

From:
Dept. Of Treasury
BATF
Wash. DC

To:
[name deleted]
11250 Waples Mill Road
Fairfax, VA.

Dear Sir:

In answer to your specific questions, the following modifications of an SKS type rifle WOULD _NOT_ BE A VIOLATION of Section 922 (r):

1. Replace the existing stock and handguard with a non-folding wooden or synthetic stock having either a Monte Carlo or thumbhole design.

2. Attach a muzzle mounted recoil compensator, provided that thedevice is not also designed as a flash suppressor.

3. Replace the standard configuration stock with a Monte Carlo or thumbhole style stock and replace the fixed magazine with a detachable magazine. THIS MODIFICATION MAY BE DONE PROVIDED THAT THE BAYONET MOUNT IS COMPLETELY REMOVED FROM THE RIFLE.

4. Replace the existing 10 round magazine with a fixed magazine of a larger capacity.

5. Replace the existing 10 round magazine with a fixed 5 round magazine or install a block in the well of the 10 round fixed magazine to limit its capacity to 5 rounds.

6. Replace the existing receiver cover with a cover having a telescopic sight based and\or rings.

7. Replace the front and\or rear sight or install an ambidextrous safety.

With respect to attaching a bipod to a standard configuration SKS rifle; standard configuration SKS rifles are not approved for importation with bipods. Therefore, the attachment of a bipod would be a violation of Section 922(r)
http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIH2.html

[WonderNine]

I think it's kind of silly to call that hunk of metal at the end of the barrel a "grenade launcher".

[Zundfolge]

"There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. When there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. ... Create a nation of law-breakers, and then you cash in on the guilt."
-Ayn Rand

:banghead:

[MAKOwner]

MAKOwner's range etiquette rule #291:

If you by chance happen to be at the range and hear of someone thinking of calling the ATF on someone with a scope mount or bipod on their SKS, it is your civic duty to beat the ever living piss out of the jackass traitor immediately.... Preferrably using whatever stuck up snob gun they had as a club...



That better be a urban myth.

[Daedalus]

Can we get a poster with that rule on it to put up at our local ranges :evil:

[Nightcrawler]

I wasn't aware that there were any laws pertaining to night sights. People put tritium sights on AR-15s all the time, don't they?

Odd that it's illegal to put a bipod on an SKS.

[Hkmp5sd]

I don't know of any prohibition on putting and/or leaving night sights on the SKS. Given that you can legally put a night vision scope on the rifle, it makes even less than the normal zero sense ATF applies to their rulings.

[DMK]

In 1989, the "sporting purposes" provision led ATF to ban the importation of several semiautomatic versions of assault weapons possessing military features such as bayonet mounts, pistol grips, night sights and grenade launchers. After the 1989 prohibition, certain semiautomatic assault rifles that had failed the sporting purposes test were modified to remove all military features except the ability to accept a large capacity military magazine (LCMM) that holds more than 10 rounds. The LCMM rifles are models based on AK-47, FN-FAL, HK 91 and 93, Uzi and SIG SG550 military assault rifles. http://www.atf.treas.gov/pub/treas_pub/assault_rifles/treasrelease.htm (For those of you with FFLs, these prohibitions are in the Federal reg book under the 9.22r and associated regulation.)

Granted, this particular letter applies to rifles with the ability to accept large capacity military magazines, yet the Norinco SKS was still banned until the bayonette was removed and it even has a few less of those "unsporting" features than the Yugo 59/66.

Folks, the ATF doesn't follow the laws of logic. I'm not saying that the permanent removal of the grenade launcher and bayo from your 59/66 will definately land you in Club Fed. I'm just showing you what the ATF has said in the past. Use your own judgment, but make an educated decision, not one based on emotion.

[Newton]

Well said Makowner.

Couldn't a night vision scope be construed as just one type of "night sight".

I dream of a day when the BATF is disbanded, and all their meaningless drivel is looked on in the same way that we now look on other pieces of ridiculous and arcane legislation - prohibition, segregation, teaching Darwinian theory etc etc.

A country full of smart people, and we end up with firearms legislation like THIS :banghead:

[DMK]

Here is a document where the ATF justifies why the individual features of "assault weapons" are bad. These include detachable mags, folding stocks, pistol grips, bayonettes, flash suppressors, bipods, grenade launchers and night sights.

You will need the Adobe Acrobat Reader to read these. Download and install it from here (http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html).

Here's the section on "non sporting" compunents: http://www.atf.treas.gov/pub/treas_pub/assault_rifles/exh5.pdf

Here's the entire report (I highly recommend that you read this!): http://www.atf.treas.gov/pub/treas_pub/assault_rifles/complete.pdf

Here's a link to the main page:
http://www.atf.treas.gov/pub/treas_pub/assault_rifles/index.htm

[rugerfreak]

The Yugo SKS has another evil feature you would have to remove if you plan on modifying it-------the threaded muzzle.

Best to just leave your Yugo alone and go shoot the heck out of it. Great guns in their original form that you can buy for a song.

[SteelyDan]

Yeah, but what if you want to transport it?

I am a reasonably competent lawyer, and I have actually read these regulations (and the ones on transporting), and there are more questions I cannot answer than those I can. This drives me nuts. Ninety-nine percent of the time, the laws are clear enough that, if you took the time to read them, you would know what is allowed and what is not. Not so with firearms. I suspect (and have read several reports substantiating) that if you write to three different government agencies about what is legal, you will get three different answers. So, I guess my recommendation is to play it safe.

[WonderNine]

Making mods to a Yugo SKS is illegal.....well...not really.

[Newton]

If you mean that in theory it is posible to walk the tightrope of grinding off evil features like the grenade launcher and bayonet lug, so that you can fit a detachable magazine, then yes.

In reality, it just isn't worth the cost or effort, and unless you get it JUST right, you may still be on the wrong side of the law.

I have just discovered that the simple act of adding a scope to a Yugo SKS renders an otherwise unmodified rifle illegal, this apparently has been confirmed in writing by the BATF.

I think that the moral of the story here is that there are easier and "safer" rifles to modify, the SKS, especially the Yugo SKS, is probably best left stock.

[Hkmp5sd]

I have just discovered that the simple act of adding a scope to a Yugo SKS renders an otherwise unmodified rifle illegal, this apparently has been confirmed in writing by the BATF.

I'd be very interested in seeing a copy of or link to this ATF ruling. Especially given the ATF rulings, including the one listed above, where they state adding a scope is perfectly legal.

[CWL]

I think the important point being ignored is that this is only regarding a "C&R" rifle, not all SKS' or Yugo SKS'.

Technically, converting or modifying a curio & relic item does remove it from this status.

[eatatjoes]

With respect to attaching a bipod to a standard configuration SKS rifle; standard configuration SKS rifles are not approved for importation with bipods. Therefore, the attachment of a bipod would be a violation of Section 922(r)

please clarify, adding a bipod, any bipod, to a SKS is illegal? or would that just apply to Yugos? sorry for the confusion but with all the aftermarket bipods avaliable it seems a little strange for that to be illegal.

[Hkmp5sd]

Sorry, there is no way to clarify anything ATF says. :) Actually, that was an ATF response to a specific inquiry dealing with non-C&R SKSs.

I recommend that anyone wanting to make changes to imported and homegrown autoloaders that might, even remotely, be effected by the import and AW bans write to ATF and ask about exactly what you propose to do. Don't listen to us part-time non-licensed legal opinion givers.