[PCRCCW]

Well folks. I came very close to getting into what possibly could have been a WAY BAD situation today. I wont use names or jurisdictions because I feel I need to keep this at least partially underwraps.

I have a Gun for sale in the local paper starting yesterday. Ive done plenty of private party transactions locally. Enough to be aware of the right way and wrong way to do this. I also try to sell on only to CCW permit holders.

I get a call early yesterday morning from a gentleman...nice enough and was quite willing to buy my gun for a little less than I wanted for it. No!
I told him..Ive got others coming but if it doesnt sell for the higher amount..Ill call you. Fine. Two more calls from this guy throughout the day "still got it?"...yes, but......same thing.

Early call this morning..same thing..."still got it?"..Im thinking, I can sell it quick for a reasonable amount and be done with it.

BUT, I listen to my "gut instinct" often, sometimes many times a day. This situation or gentleman had my gut SCREAMING at me!:cuss:

One to always admit that my gut could be wrong. I thought Id give this guy the benefit of a doubt. I got his name and address and set a time at his place. Nicer neighborhood, alright. I dont sell guns at my house....at least in a public arena of some sort at minimum. You never know what can arise.

I got the gun boxed up and my gut started again. "OK GUT!" You win...I called my local LEA and asked the dispatcher if I can get a "yes or no" to this "address having any history"? This isnt against the law. Giving me the history if the house had one would have been...she referred me to another close agency.

The 2nd dispatcher I talked to at the other agency...said "Absolutely no way" about information of this sort...until I told her why I wanted it....then it was "Ill see if I can have someone call you back". Perfect.....

I put the gun in the truck and was on my way..when the cell rang.

"Sgt. soandso here, how can I help you?" I told her the situation. She got ALOT of info about me and then was very willing to help. After a minute of two of searching....She asked me if I was driving...YEP...she laughed and said...find a parking lot if you can!

She verified the info he had given me and says.....ok here goes.

This gentlemans record of violent crimes, drugs, burglary, robbery, gun possesion (as he's a felon 4 times over), assault started @ 18 and never stopped.....she pulls up his pic on the screen and says....hmmm" I know him".

She said, "You did good and tell that gut of yours to call me anytime we can help

If it wasnt a "setup" to get my gun for free and mess me up alittle. At the very least, I would have sold my gun to a very very bad guy. This is NOT WHERE I WANT my guns going......I have way to much respect for my guns than that! :evil:

SCORE! 1 for the good guys.......LOL :D

Needless to say....I didnt finish the trip. "The gun was found to be needing some work and was headed back to the factory" is the message I left.....
"Sorry I waisted your time"..........

Man oh man...........people if you have a gut like mine and you dont listen to it......yould better start.

I WILL NEVER QUESTION MINE AGAIN.............NEVER!

Thanks for your time and shoot well.

[BryanP]

Interesting situation. I've heard of a few people now who will only do a private sale by way of having a local FFL run the NICS check first. Things like this are what they are worried about.

[Ala Dan]

Good outcome, that keeps YOUR gun out of the hands
of a habitual offender. Wonder who else this perp will
prey on?

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[PawDaddy]

I had a similar thing happen to me. I had a revolver for sale in a local bulletin and a guy calls wanting the gun. I really didn't think anything about it, because I live in a very gun friendly area. But, I decide to call him back to confirm his address. A lady answered and when I asked for the guy, she wanted to know why I was calling. I told her and she said that he wasn't allowed to own guns because of a mental problem. She was his mother.

I am very glad that I made that call. I will never sell a gun to anyone that I don't personally know their background.

[Devonai]

Just what is this LE agency planning on doing about the fact that this four-time felon is attempting to purchase a firearm? Nothing? What about the less fastidious seller?

If this had happened to me, I would have offered to help nail this guy. I'd continue with the sale, then let the cops jump out and arrest both of us. The cops can tell him I stole the gun myself so that he won't suspect me and come get me later, if possible. He goes to jail, I go home.

[Safety First]

Thanks for sharing, it is something all of us needed to hear and I'm glad you are still around to tell us about...

[cool45auto]

Good call on your part! Sounds like you came close to disaster with that guy.

[4v50 Gary]

Dang PCRCCW - you certainly used the "force" on that one and kept yourself in the safe. :D

Part II: The cops should send someone else to do a "sting" buy and put this guy away. :D

[TamThompson]

PCRCCW,
Thanks for telling your story. If I ever decide to turn lose of any of my guns, I'll remember that story and only sell to a shop or to someone I know or whom I can get checked out.

I'm glad you took precautions.

[P95Carry]

So ....... intuition obviously AIN'T exclusive to the gals!! Good call indeed ... I think we all need to play safe if uneasy .. for any reason. In fact this strikes me as one of the biggest risks with a private sale.

I'd reckon to only feel at ease if a buyer was referred by a buddy and vouched for .... much beyond that ....... think I'd leave it.

I too rather hope the law ''stings'' this guy and gets him put away .. I have little doubt as to why he wants a piece!

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

I don't think I've ever sold a gun without having a loaded one on my person at the time.

[P95Carry]

I don't think I've ever sold a gun without having a loaded one on my person at the time. Very valid point SPE ...... in fact I am never without ...... except in schools or a courthouse!:( Sure wouldn't entertain a private deal without, that's for sure!

[Standing Wolf]

Just what is this LE agency planning on doing about the fact that this four-time felon is attempting to purchase a firearm? Nothing?

I wondered the same thing, and frankly, your plan of action makes perfect sense to me.

Years ago, when I worked for a short time as a prison guard, the training liutenant asked our class what to do if someone offered us a bribe. Every one of us said we'd refuse it. The liutenant shook his head and smirked, and explained that of course, we had to accept the bribe: without it, we'd have no evidence.

[PCRCCW]

Wow...great replies. I thought about the sting thing" :rolleyes: after I made the call about it being broken...wouldnt make sense at that point.
Oh well....timing is ..er...or isnt everything :D

My gut or "force" did scream at me, however I suspect most people would have noticed this guy was giving off signals in his voice and in his comments. Pretty bizzare and pretty scary!

Ive known people who have been in worse situatons...a cop who sold a gun and was killed during the transaction a while back. Pretty scary!
That was in a small town in the 70's........

Anyway, I sold it tonight to a pretty nice guy. We traded CCW permit #'s and we were both happy when we left.

As far as the LE getting involved with this further...would they contact me to get a "this is the way it happened?"...I dont have a clue.
Ill call them back tomorrow and see if they sent someone over to have a chat with him.

Thanks for the kind words and if I do this again, I will be much more cautious from now on. Lets just say...I learned a lesson in a good way instead of learning in a very bad way. I hope the same happens to all of you.....be safe...

PS...I had my STI and PCR with me while talking to the Sgt. about the guy...
Both in a belly band with sweats on...worked pretty good for a short trip.

Shoot well.....

[C.R.Sam]

Good headwork PCRCCW

Sam

[C.R.Sam]

PS
I don't like to advertise guns with home phone number.
Bad guy reads ad, knows I have guns, gets addy from number.

Sam

[c_yeager]

Personally i require a person to show me their CHP with a matching photo ID before ill make a private sale. In WA a CHP is pretty much just a matter of paperwork and it proves that they at least passed a background check. Im not sure what i would do in a state with restrictive permit laws or with "vermont style" carry.

[Mike Irwin]

What?

No one yelling about how you interfered with this guys' right to defend himself, and that if he's out of prison, he's paid his debt to society so should have his Second Amendment rights restored?


"Ill call them back tomorrow and see if they sent someone over to have a chat with him."

Does this guy have any way of tracing the phone number back to you? If he does, I'm not sure I'd want the police going to chat with him...

As for trusting your gut, always do.

Had I not trusted my gut yesterday, I would have driven my car over top of a pre-teen girl who dashed across the street right in front of me.

She was standing by a car with her parents and never even looked before she dashed.

My gut was screaming at me so I was already off the gas and had my foot on the brake. Even so I stood my Outback on its nose.

[PCRCCW]

Hey guys....I completely agree. In my next ad it will state "CCW permit" required. You CANNOT be too careful. Im sure some IDIOT will call screaming at me because he wants my gun and isnt permitted...boo waa!

Im not worried about being traced..my cell # is the one I use for everything. The paper and ad have my middle name listed as the contact person also....did this years ago and it just stuck.

Mike,
You know...Im surprised too. But give it sometime...if my luck is good...Im done. If its not..the NAACP or somebody else will get ahold of me for being such an oppressive bastard! OOPS :what: :rolleyes:

Good call on the brakes yesterday (or day before) I dont know whether my gut is my little "angle" whispering in my ear or what...but Ill tell ya Im glad its there anyway.......

Just for S&G's....Im picturing your Outback on its nose and a Headline "Subaru defies Gravity"....glad you were listening as Im sure she it too.

Peace and Shoot well

[GeneS]

Glad to hear your gut instinct was working overtime. There's a reason we have that instinct!

[Spot77]

I guess situations like this are why Maryland requires both the buyer and seller appear at the State Police for any private transfer of a handgun, AND a waiting period.

It kind of sucks, but it's pretty dang safe.

[Graystar]

Hey guys....I completely agree. In my next ad it will state "CCW permit" required. Hmmm....

Isn't this as bad as the Brady background check?

[PCRCCW]

Actually , YES AND NO.....

YES, Its actually a deeper check to get your CCW permit than to buy a gun with a BCI check......so its worse than the Brady in that regard.....

And NO...cause if you have it, there is no wait or phone call.

ALL it took was ONE FELON to almost get my little butt in a BAD WAY from selling a gun without this criteria.
Ill deal with the hastle........and grin the whole time...cause Im still
here to be able to grin.

Shoot well

[BHPshooter]

PCRCCW,

Thanks for sharing this with us. That's pretty scary. I'm glad you found out before you got there.

You make a good point -- trust your gut. It seems like I never do and afterwards always regret it. Of course I have never been in a serious situation like that, but regardless: wise words.

Originally posted by Mike Irwin:
What?

No one yelling about how you interfered with this guys' right to defend himself, and that if he's out of prison, he's paid his debt to society so should have his Second Amendment rights restored?

Hang on there, buddy. This is completely different. How? This guy has been a felon 4 times, relating to violence and other crimes that should have had him visited by the angel of death already. Such a person has conclusively shown himself incapable of reform, remorse, or learning from his mistakes.

I haven't seen anyone who supports the reinstating of 2A rights to people who use animal violence without reason. As I said, such people should either be in prison, if they are "reparable," or dead. This is the way things were done for untold centuries, and it is how it should still be done. Our society, unfortunately, does not support this. It is quite an awkward stage, to say the least.

Wes

[Cal4D4]

"Just what is this LE agency planning on doing about the fact that this four-time felon is attempting to purchase a firearm? Nothing?"

My most recent experiences indicate that the police do not operate in this manner. They form a web that the scofflaw stumbles into time and again until finally drained of resources thru bonds and fines or enough bad karma thru repeat offender laws that they are neutralized. Expecting a movie style "pro active" response - complete with you wearing a "wire" and such - will just get you very frustrated. The system works sorta but leaves a trail of victims along the way. You are responsible for your own defense and society depends on the system doing the rest.

In Kali all sales involve a NICS check and CHP is pretty much unavailable. In your area your sales policy should assure the weapon goes to someone responsible.

[Big Mike]

This is a good ending. Good job.

I always trust my "gut" feeling. I had a psychology professor say once that a person's gut feeling is the result of conflicting data between unconscious and conscious perceptions, and that if it "feels" wrong it probably is. Took the mysticism out of it but it makes more sense to me now.

Mike

[PCRCCW]

Fumegator,
Hey buddy...thanks for the kind words...Im glad I listened too.

And take a deep breath...you can chill about Mike...he's kidding for the most part. I suspect he's doing his best left wing liberal impersonation. :rolleyes: :D OK? No harm no foul.....

Cal...
The local/state laws regarding private party transactions are very limited.
You find someone with a gun you want. You give him money and he gives you the gun. Thats it. We are one of the so called "gunshow loophole states". Because there is no regulation in PPT's..Ill just do it the way I said...CCW permit holders go through more than just a BCI check up....

Mike,
I always trust my "gut" feeling. I had a psychology professor say once that a person's gut feeling is the result of conflicting data between unconscious and conscious perceptions, and that if it "feels" wrong it probably is. Took the mysticism out of it but it makes more sense to me now.

Great explanation...thanks. But to add the mysticism back in it...Sorry, gotta do it. The Conflict is between the Sub/un/conscience minds....

Where does the data come from that is being conflicted?
How does the un/sub..mind get the information?
How does your un/subconscience mind know when to alert your conscience mind?
Why the conflict? Why cant the door open to the conscience mind and let it be known?.......

Or to really add the mysticism...."How about my guardian angel tapping me on the shoulder....If I dont listen, it slams me over the head with a 2x4!"


Shoot well

[BHPshooter]

Or to really add the mysticism...."How about my guardian angel tapping me on the shoulder....If I dont listen, it slams me over the head with a 2x4!"

I think I'd better sign up for that one. :D

Wes

[Roadkill Coyote]

IANAP (I an not a psychologist :p ), But...

Where does the data come from that is being conflicted?
How does the un/sub..mind get the information?
All the information probably comes from you. We see millions of things that we pay no attention to every day. But parts of your mind that developed to protect our ancestors from being eaten are still watching.
How does your un/subconscience mind know when to alert your conscience mind?
If anyone really understood the selection process for alerting in such a situation, they'd probably have a Nobel at very least.
Why the conflict? Why cant the door open to the conscience mind and let it be known?.......
Instinct probably developed to save our ancestors in immediate survival situations. If the predator is a few yards away, about to pounce, you don't need a potentially paralyzing overflow of information. You just need to know "get outa here" . :rolleyes:

[Mike Irwin]

PCR/Fume,

"I haven't seen anyone who supports the reinstating of 2A rights to people who use animal violence without reason."

I was being sarcastic, but I don't think you're looking nearly hard enough, Fume. That's the distinct message that I've gotten any number of times when I've stated that I simply don't like the idea of violent felons having firearms, and in fact have no problems with them being disarmed by law.

1 time armed robber of 20 time ADW, I don't care.

[ElToro]

In PRK as stated before all legal sales go thru a FFL

thats why if i sell a gun, its either on consignment and i eat the 20% or its to a friend... either way, gun sits at the FFL for 10 days. not my reponsibility... if FBI check comes in late, and they releae the gun.. not my problem. Although i hear they have the backgrounds done usually within 24-48 hours. My pal tells me that whenever they they get a response to not release gun, its within the first day or so... only downside is i cant buy a gun from any of you guys unless you're a PRK resident...

i know, i know... get out, get out.. easier said than done, but were working on it.. wife to be has finally come to realization that true freedon will be on the other side of the wall.. another rant for another thread...

[buzz_knox]

I haven't seen anyone who supports the reinstating of 2A rights to people who use animal violence without reason.

You need to reread the previous threads on interpretation of the 2nd Amendment and restoration of rights to convicts then. It's been repeatedly argued that once a person has served their time, they are entitled to full restoration of all rights, regardless of the crime convicted of.

[tetchaje1]

PCRCCW,
Since I live 15 minutes south of you and frequently list guns for sale, drop me an e-mail off of the forum with the guy's name and info so that I can avoid him. Thanks.

tetchaje2002NOSPAM@hotmail.com (take out the NOSPAM part... ;) )

[PCRCCW]

Email sent...if it doesnt reach you...youre likely to see him on your local post office wall...:D Judging by the sound of his record.
Shoot well

[New_comer]

Good call, PCR ;)


IIRC, maybe the third or fourth noteworthy deed you've done over the years we're online...


Seems your guardian angel's been working OT. My hat's off to you! :D

[mini14jac]

Saw Dateline, or one of those shows, and they were talking about how easily a woman can be tricked into leaving a safe environment, where she could be forced into a car.

A guy was standing in a mall, and would say something like, "Would you make a statement, on camera, about what you like about this mall? We'll give you a $10 gift certificate.
99% of the women would follow him outside to a van.
(Interestingly, as they would get close to the van, the women would start to lag behind a little. You could tell they didnt' feel good about it, but they went anyway.)
When the door opened, they would see a camera, and he would lecture them on being stupid.

When he would ask, "Didn't you feel, in your gut, that something wasn't right?" They always said "Yes".
He told them, "You've got to trust that gut instinct."

I'm trying to learn to trust my gut, and usually when I don't, I regret it.

[TheeBadOne]

Just what is this LE agency planning on doing about the fact that this four-time felon is attempting to purchase a firearm? Nothing?
You don't know. They could be doing nothing, they could be doing everything. :cool:

[TheeBadOne]

My most recent experiences indicate that the police do not operate in this manner. Expecting a movie style "pro active" response - complete with you wearing a "wire" and such - will just get you very frustrated.
Come on, I've seen it a million times on TV, Hill Street Blues, Kojak, NYPD Blue, 3rd Watch, and I've seen it in the movies too! :neener:

[Bruegger]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just what is this LE agency planning on doing about the fact that this four-time felon is attempting to purchase a firearm? Nothing?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you are interested in maybe having it pursued, you should call BATFE. They have Agents who go after felons-in-possession pretty much full time. I doubt you'll find local LE or prosecutors who will want to go after an "attempted FIP." In most places they have WAY too much on their plates to go after this type of thing.

Personally, I don't have too much heartburn about firearms disabilities for recidivist violent felons. I don't think they've paid their "debt to society" (whatever that means) when they get seven years or less for murder or a few months for armed robbery. Something like 90% of all violent crime is committed by a very tiny portion of the population, who rotate in and out of the prison system, destroying lives every time they are back on the streets. This is why "3 strikes laws" are so effective - at least when they address violent crime - they take the hard core violent recidivists out of action for a LONG time.

[Walther P99]

Good call.

That's why I only sell on consignment through my dealer; you never know who's going to call you otherwise.

[abaddon]

Two things:

1) He wasn't trying to lure you so he could steal your gun. If he was he would have offered what you were asking.

2) I forgot the other thing.

Jeff

[James Gang]

Maybe the guy found Jesus and is willing to lead a straight life now. Maybe the LEA is anti private gun sales and gave you bogus information. Maybe he is a good samaritan now after having served his time. Maybe those prior crimes were done in his youth.

Your paranoia reminds me of the antis. They want NO ONE to own guns except the police. In my opinion, your actions are no worse than the anti gun nuts. Besides, what's to say some "goody two shoes" buys a gun in a private deal and then two days later kills everyone in his neighborhood? Get my point?

You said: "Score 1 for the good guys."

I say: "You just scored one for the anti gun nuts."

[Mike Irwin]

"Maybe the guy found Jesus and is willing to lead a straight life now. Maybe the LEA is anti private gun sales and gave you bogus information. Maybe he is a good samaritan now after having served his time. Maybe those prior crimes were done in his youth."

None of which makes a DAMNED bit of difference if, in fact, the guy has a felony record.

PCR, in my opinion, did the right thing by listening to the little voice.

Quite frankly, this isn't a victory for the antis.

This would have been a quite convincing victory for the antis had PCR sold the gun and then the owner used it to commit a crime. The antis could have seized on that as a poster child example of why private gun sales should be outlawed.

[Mike Irwin]

On second thought, AMF, troll.

[Skunkabilly]

You guys are missing the whole point. Is the sergeant single?

[PCRCCW]

James Gang,
Yes Im absolutely sure he was a recent convert to Our Holy Lord..thus his acquiring a Mak 90 the day before he called me initially. He probably bought it to celebrate his recent baptism.....NOT!

My not selling to this guy was anything but an "anti like move"...If I sell to a felon....unknowingly or otherwise...Im all of a sudden a bad guy and possibly could be held civily liable. Guess again.......

Go troll somewhere else......see ya! :neener:

[abaddon]

You shouldn’t call James a troll just because he’s consistent in his political beliefs. Nearly all the arguments I’ve heard for prohibiting ex-cons from buying guns is based on the idea that if we allowed them to have guns they might go around killing people with them. Well, so might you. Government should not be in the business of punishing people for what they MIGHT do. So violent felons are more likely to commit crimes in the future. So what. So are African Americans and everyone on this board screams bloody murder when government restricts the rights of African Americans to own guns. A little consistency, please.

Jeff

[abaddon]

By the way,

I'm not saying that individuals don't have the right to refrain from selling to violent criminals. I'm just saying government doesn't have the right to restrict those sales.

Jeff

[Mike Irwin]

AB,

Check your private messages.


Oh, and here's consistency for you.

Convicted of a felony, especially a violent felony?

No guns.

PERIOD.

[Andrew Rothman]

You shouldn’t call James a troll just because he’s consistent in his political beliefs.

No, they should call him a troll because he is. Look at how many posts "he" has posted!

Matt

[BluesBear]

Hmmmmm,

If it looks like a Duck and smells like a Duck and sounds like a Duck and flies like a Duck and swims like a Duck...

[abaddon]

Well, after seeing my PM's I'm starting to think maybe he is a troll, but based on the information I had on hand I felt I had to defend him. Just because he only has one post does not mean he is a troll. I don't post very often and I guess I am overly-considerate to those who may be posting for the first time.

But I still stand by my statement that we shouldn't punish people for being statistically likely to re-offend. Maybe you could make an argument that we're punishing them for their crime and not out of fear that they will re-offend but I don't think that's the reasoning behind it. Especially when a guy who got in a fight at 18 can't even buy a gun when he's 80. Being punished for your whole life for that doesn't seem fair.

Again, I'm not saying PCRCCW or anyone else can't choose not to sell to anyone they want to. I'm not even saying gun-shop owners shouldn't choose not to sell to these people. I'm just saying the government shouldn't make that choice for them.

Jeff

[BluesBear]

PCRCCW
This gentlemans record of violent crimes, drugs, burglary, robbery, gun possesion (as he's a felon 4 times over), assault started @ 18 and never stopped.....

abaddon
Especially when a guy who got in a fight at 18 can't even buy a gun when he's 80. Being punished for your whole life for that doesn't seem fair.

Looks like we ain't exactly comparing apples to oranges here.
I agree that there are some cases in which a person with a tainted past should still be able to live under 2nd Amendment protections. But I think this guy has exceeded the number of forgiveable exceptions.

Just my tuppence.

[RWK]

ALWAYS trust your gut . . . and VERY WELL DONE.

Regards -- Roy

[PCRCCW]

abbadon,
I agree with you on a couple of your points.....but there is no way this guy would have gotten my gun. My gut may have been wrong in the past and I may have aready sold to one of these borderline cases...who knows?

But in the meantime...Im glad he doesnt have my weapon.

Thanks to all for the kind words...the gut shall remain in effect. :D

Shoot well

[Zach S]

You guys are missing the whole point. Is the sergeant single? Damn, you beat me to it.

PCR, good call trusting your gut. Despite the guys saying anything to the effect of denying his RKBA.

If the government wouldnt let these ppl out of prison to begin with, we wouldnt have to worry about violent felons getting firearms now would we?

[Deepdiver]

Good thread, PCRCCW!

I have thought about selling a gun thru the classifieds before but was never comfortable with what the consequences might be. Your posting gave me a good idea as to how to proceed (as well as the risks involved).

Thanks for sharing!

[dawg23]

James Gand Quote: 'Your paranoia reminds me of the antis. They want NO ONE to own guns except the police. In my opinion, your actions are no worse than the anti gun nuts. Besides, what's to say some "goody two shoes" buys a gun in a private deal and then two days later kills everyone in his neighborhood? Get my point?

Sounds like ole James Gang is still upset because he didn't get to buy that pistol from PCRCCW.:D

Don't worry James, you'll find another one. Just not from PCRCCW.

[BluesBear]

Does anyone else find it funny how that was the very first and so far the only post on THR from James Gang?




Hey just because we're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get us.
:neener:

[Atticus]

"I get a call early yesterday morning from a gentleman...nice enough and was quite willing to buy my gun for a little less than I wanted for it. No!
I told him..Ive got others coming but if it doesnt sell for the higher amount..Ill call you. Fine. Two more calls from this guy throughout the day "still got it?"...yes, but......same thing."



I'm curious...would your "gut" have prevailed if he had said only once, "I'll take it"?