Crazy 1911 idea. I think


PDA






hatchetbearer
August 5, 2008, 02:22 PM
So, the other day I got a crazy idea in my head that I want a 1911 chambered in 7.62x25. I figure if I take a .45 1911 and get a smith with an x25 chamber bit on a blank barrel, and fit slightly tweaked 9mm ejectors, extractors and so on while using high strength recoil springs to allow feeding, using modified .45 mags, with the extra room from the smaller shell, I think I could get about 12-13 rounds using a custom follower to aid in the double stacked feeding.


granted this will easily cost more than what it would be worth, but I do believe it to be doable Loaded with saboted .223 rounds, I could get some crazy, flat shooting ballistics out of this rig. Mall ninjas eat your heart out.


If you think this is crazy, you ought to hear my plans for a .357 Mosin 91/30....

If you enjoyed reading about "Crazy 1911 idea. I think" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Jim Watson
August 5, 2008, 02:38 PM
OAL of 7.62x25 is too great for a 1911 magazine.

The Communist Chinese did some rough conversions of guns captured from the Nationalist Chinese but they had to cut out the frame as much as possible (and maybe a little more) to make room for the long Mauser round.

The idea comes up about every other week on the gun boards, but nobody has ever followed through that I have seen.

Beagle-zebub
August 5, 2008, 02:40 PM
I don't think this is a complete deal-buster, but 7.62 Tokarev has an OAL too long to be stacked flat within a 1911. I've read other threads about this idea, and that was what they said would be the limiting factor. (Like all good ideas, it's been had before. Hooray for post-modernity!)

crushbup
August 5, 2008, 02:48 PM
Couldn't you stack it like in a Ruger Mark 2?

rcmodel
August 5, 2008, 02:57 PM
No.

If the round is angled up enough to get them in the magazine, the rim of the top round would be too low for the slide to engage them and strip them out of the magazine.

And even if it did, the round would most likely just do a back-flip and stovepipe.

rcmodel

R.W.Dale
August 5, 2008, 03:00 PM
I think a better route would be to take a norinco Tokarev and trick it out with all sorts of trigger, action work and a good set of aftermarket sights. Can you imagine how cool it would be if one of the domestic 1911 manufacturers came out with a tricked out tokarev clone in cartridges like 9x23, 7.62x25 and 38 super. I think one would be the perfect compliment to anyones collection. They just point so well and are so thin.

HorseSoldier
August 5, 2008, 03:02 PM
+1 on OAL being an issue. 7.62x25 is too long even for 45 ACP/10mm Auto sized frames, which is the main reason we haven't already seen someone doing 7.62x25 production pistols or (more likely) at least conversion kits.

rcmodel
August 5, 2008, 03:32 PM
the main reason we haven't already seen someone doing 7.62x25IMO: The main reason is, no manufacture in his right mind is going to design a new gun platform, chambered in an obsolete caliber, whose principal ammo source is 50+ year old, surplus, corrosive, over-pressure, commie sub-gun ammo!

It would be a very bad business decision all the way around!

rcmodel

R.W.Dale
August 5, 2008, 04:13 PM
IMO: The main reason is, no manufacture in his right mind is going to design a new gun platform, chambered in an obsolete caliber, whose principal ammo source is 50+ year old, surplus, corrosive, over-pressure, commie sub-gun ammo!

It would be a very bad business decision all the way around!


It's a good thing manufacturers don't always listen to advice like this. Otherwise 45-70 and 45lc would be nonexistent today

Perhaps you need to find a better sources for your ammo.

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=761742

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=618543

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=941825

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=360976

I've never seen as much clamor to have a particular handgun chambering reintroduced as there is for 7.62x25 these threads pop up weekly! If someone made one it would sell. Hell if people buy 5.7 FN's they'll buy a nice 7.62x25

hatchetbearer
August 6, 2008, 03:55 AM
It would appear I read wikipedia wrong. looking at two different measurements. Oh well, worth a thought.

Clean97GTI
August 6, 2008, 04:46 AM
You could always do a revolver in 7.62x25.
Probably need to use moon clips but I think you could pull it off.

hatchetbearer
August 6, 2008, 12:37 PM
I thought bottlenecked cartridges and revolvers = bad. the casings slip backwards and swell up from the high pressure, and then wont eject.

Jim Watson
August 6, 2008, 12:42 PM
I know there were a number of different makes of Tokarevs from behind the Iron Curtain, but I do not know if there is one that is of superior fit and finish like the East German Makarov. If there is, it could be customized to taste. Surely the trigger pull could be adjusted, the sights regulated or replaced, and wrap-around grips made to improve the grip angle, as was done for the Tokagypt. A GOOD manual safety would be hard to incorporate, but you could run the gun in Condition 2 or 3.

I doubt anybody is going to come out with a new gun in the caliber, in spite of all the Internet Outcries, I don't see a market for a $500-$1000 7.62 comparable to the apparently endless sales of 1911 copies, clones, and mutants.

HOWEVER, if you want the performance, not just a different way to blast Commie Surplus, it is there if you will do the work and pay the money. There has been some work done by necking down the 9x23 to smaller calibers, I think including .30. It is a strong case and in a strong gun there would be no significant difference from 7.62x25.
The trick will be getting somebody to make a .30 barrel for a 1911 or similar. Chamber and die reamers are no problem, all that takes is money. But for a barrel, you will have to convince somebody to make a big hole in his production schedule.


There was the guy who was going to chamber a gun for 7.62x25 and try to make up the excess length by loading blunt bullets seated deep.

I won't revive the thread about the nitwit determined to make a 7.62x25 Browning.

There is always the 7.65x22, the .30 Luger, if you want the little bullets. I don't know how much scope there is for hotloading the round, though; it is usually listed as a 93 grain bullet at 1200 fps, which is not as exciting as an 86 at 1400.

Joe Demko
August 6, 2008, 12:51 PM
The problem I have with the Tokarev pistols is that there is no way to safely carry one in Condition 1. You can trust the half cock notch and try thumb cocking from the draw...I don't. You can trust the crummy rule-beater safety and carry with a loaded chamber and cocked hammer...I don't.
It's too bad too. I love my Tokarev pistol and the cartridge it fires; but it is strictly a range toy.

jwr_747
August 6, 2008, 03:26 PM
me thinks you folks on the verge of making Mr. John M. Browning claw his way back this way. jwr

JesseL
August 6, 2008, 03:31 PM
I thought bottlenecked cartridges and revolvers = bad. the casings slip backwards and swell up from the high pressure, and then wont eject.

I think it depends on just how much of a bottleneck you're talking. 44-40, 38-40, & 32-20 seem to have worked okay for Colt.

hatchetbearer
August 6, 2008, 03:47 PM
My hopes were to do this of the 1911 platform, simply because if it worked, it would be awesome, if not i could just switch some parts back and still have a .45 1911. An Idea would be to find a Coonan, .357 1911 frame, slide and so on and modify one of them.....

I really do have too much time on my hands.

alistaire
August 6, 2008, 05:37 PM
I really do have too much time on my hands.

Go to the range.

hatchetbearer
August 6, 2008, 10:21 PM
Go to the range.

If only my budget allowed the expenditure of that much ammo, I'd Be there morning noon and night.

rcmodel
August 7, 2008, 12:33 PM
44-40, 38-40, & 32-20 seem to have worked okay for Colt.Yes, but you are talking about 13 - 16,000 PSI rounds there, not 35 - 40,000 PSI.

Case stretching and cylinder binding were not an issue because the pressures are so low.

rcmodel

JesseL
August 7, 2008, 12:59 PM
44-40, 38-40, & 32-20 seem to have worked okay for Colt.
Yes, but you are talking about 13 - 16,000 PSI rounds there, not 35 - 40,000 PSI.

Case stretching and cylinder binding were not an issue because the pressures are so low.

rcmodel

Okay, so hows about the revolvers in .22 Hornet from Taurus and Magnum Research? I haven't heard of too many binding issues with those.

I'm sure pressure is a factor, but I think the degree of case taper and shoulder angle has a lot to do with it too. Somewhere between the geometry of .22 Hornet and .22 Remington Jet, things seems to go bad.

Doc69er
August 26, 2008, 02:33 PM
Is there any 1911 Barrel maker or Pistolsmith that makes a .30 Luger (7.65mm Parabellum) for the 1911 Gov't Model?

Me and my buddy love this caliber,combining great accuracy,light recoil, excellent velocity (1200-1400 fps). Not to mention great 1911 ergonomics.

I (we) think this would be a great USA alternative (due to cartridge length restrictions 7.65X23 vs. 7.62X25) to the Communist Tokarev TT30/33.

Any smith's/machinists out there that can handle this type of work?

Josh Aston
August 26, 2008, 06:18 PM
An alternative to having a barrel made specifically for the .30 caliber is to have your .45 (or 9mm or whatever) barrel sleeved to .30 caliber.

eatont9999
August 26, 2008, 07:25 PM
I think that is the definition of a Tokarev. I suggest buying one and get it tricked out for all under $500. Then you don't have to worry about ruining a 1911 and you will have better reliability minus a headache.

If you enjoyed reading about "Crazy 1911 idea. I think" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!