10mm auto as a mountain gun?


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KBintheSLC
August 5, 2008, 02:12 PM
So, last week I bought my dad the Glock 20 he has wanted for a while. I have also been shopping around for a good wilderness gun for myself in the meantime (possibly a wheel gun in 44 mag). Well, my father and I got to talking, and he said "why don't you just get yourself a Glock 20 for the wilderness?". Well, I had not considered it before but he presented some good arguments. The 10mm round delivers over 600 ft/lbs of juice, and it does it 15+1 times before I have to reload. Also, the Glock platform is durable and weather resistant, and I am very used to shooting a Glock. Also, the Glock 20 weighs about half as much as a big .44.

Now on the other hand, I am concerned about the availability of 10mm ammo. It is not nearly as popular as .44 magnum, and I hardly have any options when buying locally. The other issue is price. High end ammo for 10mm costs about the same per round as .44 mag, but the .44 mag delivers 2X the punch for the price. Also, since Glock is the only firm to make a really usable 10mm auto, is there a risk of the caliber falling off the face of the earth?

I always thought that a big wheel gun was the only true "mountain gun" worthy of carrying in the deep woods. However, I am starting to wonder if this 10mm auto idea is a better alternative.

Thoughts? Thanks.

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M203Sniper
August 5, 2008, 02:40 PM
S&W makes a 10mm revolver.

1911 platform 10mm pistols are expensive but worthy of the round.
http://www.fusionfirearms.com Hunter 10mm (http://www.fusionfirearms.com/)
DW Razorback 10MM (http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=80)
DW CBOB 10mm (http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=66)

If you want one then get a .44.

The Glock 29 is a popular gun also.

Double Tap Ammo (http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/index.php?cPath=21_25)

treeprof
August 5, 2008, 02:52 PM
A G-20 is my lower 48 woods gun, incl. some past hiking in your neck of the woods. DoubleTap Ammo is located in SLC and I've seen it stocked there at Impact Guns. Like everything else, a wide array of 10mm ammo is available over the internet. Most bigger shops will have 10mm Win Silvertips, which is an upper mid-/lower full-power load.

CWL
August 5, 2008, 02:58 PM
Semis are just-as if not more reliable than revolvers nowadays. Add in the fact that most semi malfunctions can be corrected by Operator v. a malfunctioning revolver probably needs 'smithing. All adds up to a semi making sense in "mountain gun" application.

I like revolvers, but I think that the "outdoors = revolver" feeling is more of romantic notion carried-over from olden times than anything else.

Zundfolge
August 5, 2008, 03:20 PM
A pistol that is the ballistic equivalent of the .41mag, carries 10 more rounds than a S&W Model 57 or 58 (N frame .41) while weighing 10 to 12 oz less?

No, I can't for the life of me see how such a pistol would be a worthy backwoods gun. :neener:

jonboynumba1
August 5, 2008, 03:56 PM
hunted with a .460 rowland a bit last year and carried it with me all season as "backup" for the rifle (ever had a deer RIGHT under your stand and realized there is no way you can get it in your sights with your rifle-LOL)

Clean97GTI
August 5, 2008, 04:00 PM
last time I checked the 10mm was close, but not quite as burly as the .41mag. The .41mag will launch heavier bullets faster and with considerably more muzzle energy.
Well, if what Buffalo Bore and Double Tap say on their websites is true.

However, its hard to argue with less weight and more than twice the capacity.

sqlbullet
August 5, 2008, 06:15 PM
Double Tap is located in Cedar City, UT, 200 miles south of Salt Lake. I have not checked impact guns for availability of ammo. Ordering online is not a hassle once you have a DL on file with Dbl Tap. Double Tap has a really nifty 230 gr Equalizer load that seems like it would be a good trail load. It packs a 135 gr jhp over a 95gr lead ball. I would think a magazine alternating these with their 230 gr hard cast would make a great all around wilderness defense package.

Georgia Arms will ship 1000 rounds of 180 grain to your door in SLC for about $300 (exactly 300 to my house in Holladay about 10 months ago). This is new brass, FMJ ammo. The brass is great for reloading.

Which is the final point to consider. Reload. You will save a ton of money allowing more time at the range. Sportsmans Warehouse in Midvale has pretty good prices on components. Gallenson's in downtown SLC has a good supply of presses and tools in stock usually. They also have some guys on staff you actually know something about reloading.

Clean97GTI is correct. You won't touch the ballistics you can achieve with a heavy 41 mag load with the 10mm. But, with 16 rounds up the pipe you can deliver 10,256 ft lbs with a Glock 20 versus the 6,444 ft lbs you can deliver in 6 shots of 41 mag.

(Before the storm rages, yes, I know that adding the energy for all the shots together is not really a valid methodology.)

David E
August 5, 2008, 08:54 PM
If you reload and/or plan ahead, you'll have enough 10mm ammo with you, so you shouldn't need to worry about Joe's Bait Shop having 10mm ammo.

The ballistic comparison between the 10mm and .44 isn't the issue. The issue is, does the properly chosen 10mm load have enough power to do the task(s) you envision?

I've gone thru this very dilemma when deciding what gun I wanted to "cash in" my Glock certificate for. I decided on the G-20 for probably many of the same reasons your Dad gave you.

I have a 165 Gold Dot JHP @ 1350 fps, which ought to stop anything I'd need to shoot in my woods.

.

Gunz
August 5, 2008, 09:52 PM
While I love the 10mm, I think most realistic comparisons will rank it closer to a 357 Mag. Not that is anything to dismiss.

I love the fact that a Glock 20 will pack 15+1 of 357 Mag equivalent loadings for defensive purposes.

Still, for a backup gun, it is great. For a primary gun in known dangerous predator country, the primary should be a rifle or shotgun with slugs.

David E
August 5, 2008, 10:14 PM
My 165 grain is 643 ft lbs to about 529 ft lbs for a 158 grains. The .41 cranks out over 900 ft lbs. :eek:

I'd rather shoot the 10mm than the .357 or that .41, myself.

.

skywarp_
August 5, 2008, 10:43 PM
Here's all the evidence you need.

MachIVshooter
August 5, 2008, 10:53 PM
The 10mm is a hard hitting, deep penetrating round and is well suited to animal defense, save the rally nasty critters that are best dealt with using 12 ga slugs or big bore rifles. I carry either my S&W 1006 or my Witness Compact in the woods and have plenty of faith in the round's ability to put down an aggressive black bear or cougar (if I were actually able to see it before the attack).

The 10 cannot compete with the likes of .44 mag, .460 XVR, .50 AE, .500 S&W, etc. But none of those carry 16 rounds in a 3 pound package like the Glock 20 or Tanfoglio Witness.

pps
August 5, 2008, 11:42 PM
skywarp_

Do all the 10mm rounds come with the little mushroom cloud in the picture?:)

If I carried a semi auto for hiking, It would be the 10mm

zxcvbob
August 5, 2008, 11:59 PM
The next pistol on my wishlist is a EAA Witness (large frame) with both the 10mm and .40SW barrels. And the skinny wooden grips.

There's a couple of rifles ahead of it in priority, but it depends on what I find a good deal on next.

wyocarp
August 5, 2008, 11:59 PM
It's nice that the Glock 20 carries as many rounds as it does, and I love the pistol. I have a safe full of guns and my son took a G20 on a recent trip he took (it is one of his favorites as well when the chips are down). That being said, I have been in the path of both lions and bears when they have been charging and you won't get half of those bullets out of the barrel generally.

Standing right beside me, my son stopped a charging bear with one shot this past spring at twenty feet. With a G20, he might have been able to get a few rounds off but I doubt it would have stopped the bear dead in it's tracks and I feel he wouldn't have been able to get more than maybe 3 shots with an auto loading pistol.

Arkady
August 6, 2008, 12:37 AM
.357 magnum (or better) ballistics out of a 15+1 autoloader? Sounds like a great woods gun to me.

That's why I bought mine. Eaa Witness Elite Match 10mm, here.
Something about a 155g@1400fps GoldDot load just gives me a warm, fuzzy feeling.

KBintheSLC
August 6, 2008, 02:40 PM
Great feedback folks... much appreciated. I am beginning to believe that the G20 will be more than sufficient for the issues I may encounter here in the Rockies. As for ammo, reloading is not really an option at this point... I live in an apartment, and space is growing scarce... someday when I have a garage. Nonetheless, I can always order a case of ammo online and call it good. It sounds like this cartridge is here to stay.

sophijo
September 27, 2008, 01:01 PM
+1 long-gun

JImbothefiveth
September 27, 2008, 01:16 PM
You can also get a g20 with internal compensator, since you'll probably want followup shots.http://www.glock.com/english/index_pistols.htm They're known as the "C" versions.

460 rowland
I think it has almost as much energy as a .44 magnum. Here's who makes the conversions. http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/


save the rally nasty critters that are best dealt with using 12 ga slugs
Make sure you use the right kind of slugs, your average deer slug probably won't do.

Cocked & Locked
September 27, 2008, 01:17 PM
go for it...

http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2169/3082611/16805181/259406841.jpg

Zoogster
September 27, 2008, 01:32 PM
That being said, I have been in the path of both lions and bears when they have been charging and you won't get half of those bullets out of the barrel generally.

Unless you had the full auto version (requiring a very firm grip.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fX8jt3bp48k

Just imagine that as a bear gun. You could get the rounds off. :neener:
Inside of 30 feet you could probably unload the entire magazine accurately if you chose to. That much firepower and you could also wait even longer before resulting to lethal force and still be confident in the results. Meaning more bears should not have to be shot in defense.

Most full auto glocks have around a 1200 rounds per minute rate of fire.
That is 20 rounds per second.

The things you could have done pre-1986.

NonConformist
September 27, 2008, 01:34 PM
Id rather have a longarm in a suitable caliber, but I am comfortable w/ a .45 and dang sure would be w/ a 10mm

10mm is a beast!

Jst1mr
September 28, 2008, 02:34 AM
Something about a 155g@1400fps GoldDot load just gives me a warm, fuzzy feeling.

Not me...in bear country I prefer a 360 gr FP at 1900 fps out of my .460S&W Mag...but that's not for the faint of heart!!!! Also, you get the opportunity for follow-up shots while the bear is stumbling around senseless and hairless from the muzzle blast! ;);)

LongRider
September 28, 2008, 06:01 PM
Marlin 45/70 takes them all down...oh HAND gun yeah 10mm works

JImbothefiveth
September 28, 2008, 06:10 PM
and you could also wait even longer before resulting to lethal force and still be confident in the results. Meaning more bears should not have to be shot in defense.
Waiting longer sounds like a bad idea to me. If it's intent on killing you, the only way that will result in less bear deaths is by resulting in more human deaths.

mbpautz762
September 28, 2008, 10:34 PM
see if you can get a 6" bar-sto barrel (?) for your glock. a friend of mine clocked his 200gr handloads at just over 1350fps with a 6" barrel! :what::what:

RPCVYemen
September 29, 2008, 11:16 AM
Something about a 155g@1400fps GoldDot load just gives me a warm, fuzzy feeling.

Isn't that pretty wimpy for a hunting load? The impression I get from reading about hunting loads in the various reloading manuals is that you probably want close to twice that bullet weight at that speed.

I also have the impression that people who need handguns to kill things like bears are more concerned with penetration than expansion - they want to make sure the bullet gets deep enough to hit a vital organ. Don't know if/how Gold Dots do that.

Mike

Jason M
September 29, 2008, 02:24 PM
Quote:
Something about a 155g@1400fps GoldDot load just gives me a warm, fuzzy feeling.

Isn't that pretty wimpy for a hunting load? The impression I get from reading about hunting loads in the various reloading manuals is that you probably want close to twice that bullet weight at that speed.

I also have the impression that people who need handguns to kill things like bears are more concerned with penetration than expansion - they want to make sure the bullet gets deep enough to hit a vital organ. Don't know if/how Gold Dots do that.

Mike

We're not talking about a hunting pistol, it is a backup gun for protection against game or preditory animals that attack.

RPCVYemen
September 29, 2008, 03:08 PM
We're not talking about a hunting pistol, it is a backup gun for protection against game or predatory animals that attack.

I understand that. However, the people who know most about what it takes to kill an attacking predatory animal are probably going to be folks who kill them regularly.

I would think you'd need more power for protection than for hunting. This a thought experiment, but when you are the predator, you get to pick the time and the venue for an attack. When you are the prey, you pick neither. My guess is that when a predator decided to attack you, you want all the power you can handle in that first shot.

Mike

MCgunner
September 29, 2008, 03:32 PM
I prefer a revolver's versatility, but I mean, why not if the gun is accurate enough? I really like .357 magnum for its versatility and the light medium frame 4" guns that can be had for it. Can shoot anything from squirrels to hogs with it and defend against bear, very versatile. A revolver in 10mm will be of similar versatility with handloads or light .40 for small game. A G20, of course, would have to fire only 10mm and probably fairly hot to cycle the gun. The two G20s I've fired were plenty accurate, under 2" at 25 yards accurate, rather impressive. If the gun can shoot 2" or less off the bench at 25 yards, to me, it's plenty accurate for field uses with iron sights. I'd shrink that by an inch for actual hunting and especially scoped out to 100 yards. Only areas I've ever hiked in, worst critters other than humans are black bear. Not really much danger there and if a handgun were needed, 10mm would be plenty. I've most often carried a 4" .357 revolver.

I've killed a couple of deer with a .357 revolver firing 158 SWC at 1470 fps. It's plenty for deer OR black bear or human dope growers or whatever. :D

LongRider
September 29, 2008, 04:07 PM
Waiting longer sounds like a bad idea to me. If it's intent on killing you,
Bears or any animal is rarely intent on killing you. Predators tend not to see adult humans as prey. If they do attack it is most often for other reasons. That said some Grizzlies do consider human beings the delicacy of choice once they have tasted a human being. Maybe what cannibals say is true we taste like pork While I would never consider it with a human being a warning shot will most often work with a animal "IF" they are far enough away that you will be able to get off another shot when needed.

I also have the impression that people who need handguns to kill things like bears are more concerned with penetration than expansion - they want to make sure the bullet gets deep enough to hit a vital organ.
Naw we want OMG where did my guts go ammo :eek: 45/70

Tom Krein
October 7, 2008, 11:24 PM
I carry a Glock 20 on a fairly regular basis for my CCW gun. It carries easily IWB in a Comp Tac IWB holster.

I would highly recommend this for a "Mountain Gun"! I don't find it difficult to shoot at all. If you can shoot a .45 acp you can handle a 10mm. It has a bit more recoil, but really not much! Nothing you can't train for. The Glock platform also helps with the recoil.

Is a hot 10mm the equivilent to a .41 mag, not quite... BUT its pretty close.

If I was considering my Glock 20 for a mountain gun I would get a cut rifled barrel and go with this load from Double Tap ammo.... LINK (http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_25&products_id=158) It is a 230 grain hardcast wide flat nose bullet with a gas check! It will do 1100+ fps out of a Glock 20. This round offers pretty good weight for caliber and should penetrate very well!

You need the cut rifled barrel to shoot hard cast lead bullets, not recommending in the stock Glock barrel. If it was me I would opt for a 6" barrel.

Tom

CZF
October 8, 2008, 02:52 PM
A Glock 10mm is what many people in Alaska carry for protection
in the woods.

I'd carry my Witness or a G29. The Glock 20 grip is to big for me but a 29 or forthcoming SF model might work for me.

I currently carry the superb Double Tap 180 Grain Gold Dot JHP.

Like others have said. Near 41 magnum power with a super fast reload.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/dt103.JPG

More Info:
http://www.angelfire.com/amiga/hakan/DOUBLETAP-10MM.html

polizei36
October 8, 2008, 03:01 PM
Like you stated its a "Mountain Gun" not an everyday shoots. I would prefer the Glock 20 as it will stand up to the test of time, weather and big bad animals 15+1 times....lol

IMO..As far as the ammo disappearing, I doubt it. There are to may hunters out there for ALL of the 10mm ammo to disappear any time soon.

g88
October 8, 2008, 04:22 PM
Another thing is that bears and other critters are out at night. With the Glock you can have a light on the gun to see what you are dealing with -- and to have a two-hand hold if you might have to shoot. Compare that to shooting a 44 mag revolver one-handed while you hold a flashlight in the other, with a bear after you.

What about Corbon DPX ammo? Great penetrator, I hear. Might just carry the 10mm ballistics across the finish line.

g88

375JDJ
October 9, 2008, 07:22 AM
10mm is fine for a general trail gun, but if I'm headed into bear country, I'll be backing my Colt Anaconda 44 mag. loaded with 300 gr Sierra JSP traveling at 1250+ fps.
I'll take all the power I can reasonable carry. That load dropped a charging 7-800 lb. boar that needed convincing it was already dead....
I trust it to do it's job and my ability to place the round where it needs to go under stress.

mljdeckard
October 9, 2008, 03:07 PM
(I didn't know Double-Tap ammo was out of Cedar City.)

KBintheSLC
October 9, 2008, 04:32 PM
Wow... I was surprised to see this old thread pop up again.

Anyway, I did end up buying the G20, and I am in love with both the gun and the caliber. I believe that it is the best compromise (when it comes to handguns) between power, capacity, shootability, portability, and durability. :)

Long guns may be better from a ballistic standpoint, but they are not even remotely practical for casual backpacking... unless I am in Alaska. I am already hauling 45-50 lbs on my back, and the G20 is almost unnoticeable on my hip strap.

KBintheSLC
October 9, 2008, 05:22 PM
Isn't that pretty wimpy for a hunting load? The impression I get from reading about hunting loads in the various reloading manuals is that you probably want close to twice that bullet weight at that speed.

I also have the impression that people who need handguns to kill things like bears are more concerned with penetration than expansion - they want to make sure the bullet gets deep enough to hit a vital organ. Don't know if/how Gold Dots do that.

I think that Gold Dot in any weight is more for anti-human SD than hunting. They are very soft, and expand very fast. I like to carry the DoubleTap 200g FMJ-FP for woods defense, and I like their 200g Controlled Expansion JHP for a hunting round.

CZF
October 10, 2008, 02:45 AM
Even though I've never killed a black bear. I tend to believe that the Stinging Bee approach to killing bears is a valid one.

CZF
October 10, 2008, 02:56 AM
I never said the 180 gr Gold Dot was my Hunting load.
Just what I carry for defense in the woods.

God Dots are designed to hold together and punch thru windshields and other tactical barriers.

I doubt if a Black Bear's throat or chest cavity is tougher
than a windshield.

I could be very wrong, but for defense against dogs, blackies
and humans. I think the Gold Dot is a sound choice.

If not, then I have a spare mag of Speer FMJ on hand.

However, any load in 10mm (or other calibers) from Double Tap
is going to be powerful and accurate, and one can see why
many a Glock Talker and THR member uses DT Ammo.

mljdeckard
October 10, 2008, 02:05 PM
The 10mm is probably a better option, but at this time, I don't want to buy another gun. I'm in the process of acquiring the barrel and dies to shoot .400 Corbon out of my 1911, which when loaded hot, overlaps into the 10mm power range. I want to do this for the deer hunt anyway.

JmanAR15
October 10, 2008, 03:37 PM
I thought this is kind of funny.
http://www.impactguns.com/store/media/sw/sw_163503_case.jpg

But, I want a 460 S&W 12" with scope, and give up the rifle.
http://www.impactguns.com/store/media/sw/smith_170280.jpg

earplug
October 10, 2008, 07:10 PM
This week a good shot showed up at our weekly steel shoot with a G20, the stock G20 is much easier to shoot then a stock DA revolver. Five targets hit in under five seconds from the holster. No failures noted.
The G20 is his woods gun

Boxhead
October 10, 2008, 09:16 PM
My switch barrel 40 S&W/10 mm Para shoots both rounds very well. Can't beat 17 rounds of 10 mm, almost 3 sixguns in one...

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-7/1055658/SBH087.jpg

XD-40 Shooter
October 10, 2008, 11:21 PM
I'd have no problem at all carrying a 10mm out here in the woods of Colorado. You can handload the 10mm to baseline 41 mag, 750 ft lbs or so. Plus you get 16 rds, instead of 5. For anything up to black bear, 10mm is sufficient.

treeprof
October 10, 2008, 11:25 PM
Gold Dot personal protection bullets are made differently (esp. a thinner jacket) than Gold Dot hunting bullets, and the 10mm/.400 Gold Dot hollow points are not hunting bullets. Those begin with the .357 Mag Gold Dot soft point, and include a variety of Gold Dot soft and hollow points in larger calibers. Speer's own handloading manual recommends the 10mm 180 gr gold dots for small whitetails at most, and that at close range (max 1295 fps). They recommend 200 gr FMJ if one has any thoughts of using one of their 10mm/.400 bullets in bear country. The 155 gr Gold Dot is not even recommended for small deer, due to lack of penetration.

I've put down car-injured deer with Gold Dots to the skull and have been singularly unimpressed with how they hold together. I've also hunted and killed black bear and have a pretty good idea of how hard they can be to put down. Perforating a windshield is one thing, but it bears (no pun intended) no resemblance to penetrating bone and muscle. I carry a Glock 20 as my lower 48 woods gun, but load it with Corbon 180 gr bonded soft points or DoubleTap 200 gr Beartooth hardcasts when there's a chance of needing 4-legged defense.

Three Man
October 11, 2008, 12:04 AM
Also, you get the opportunity for follow-up shots while the bear is stumbling around senseless and hairless from the muzzle blast!


Now that is funny, I love it...:D

3pairs12
October 11, 2008, 12:12 AM
Uncle Ted swears by that round for back up gun.If thats worth anything to you.

mjb
October 11, 2008, 11:58 PM
I carry a Colt Delta Elite loaded with double tap ammo for the woods. 10mm is my favorite caliber.

rkamp
October 12, 2008, 12:40 AM
Delta Elite loaded with DT 200gr XTP for woods/walking up on pigs downed by rifle. 180gr Georgia Arms Gold Dots for general use.


http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o196/rkamp_111/IMG_0078.jpg

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