[roscoe]

Let us stipulate that one might be backpacking in a desert area occasionally visited by smugglers of humans and drugs, and that the backpacker will be carrying a CZ 75B in 9mm. Let us further stipulate that, in the unfortunate occasion that one might have to defend ones self, it is reasonable to assume there will be a fair amount of distance between the happy-go-lucky tramper and those with ill intent.

The question is this, assuming that one has some reasonable confidence that one could hit COM at over 50 yards (having practiced repeatedly), is it better to go with FMJ over hollowpoints? Is sufficient energy lost at distances between 50 and 100 yards to make penetration rather than expansion the overriding concern?

Of course, we are assuming that the villains aren't armed with AKs and shooting me at 200 yards.

[Marko Kloos]

If the threat is 50 or 100 yeards away, you ought to be making tracks in the opposite direction. It's hard to claim self-defense at that range, unless someone with a rifle is preparing to shoot you.

That said, long-range handgunning is not that difficult. I can hit a silhouette target with reasonable certainty at 200 yards with a lowly 9mm, but that's on a calm day and without stress. I'm sure it'd be difficult if the silhouette aimed a loaded .30-30 at me.

[Walosi]

At 50 to 100 yds, hitting is more likely than expansion, if you've praticed your "long shots". HPs become solids at that distance, from most handguns, but I would carry them over solids for "all-around" coverage.

[El Tejon]

ros, a distinction without difference. Carry the load you prefer.

Why do you not carry a rifle? If you think you may get in a fight at 50 yards (or be attacked by a bear), why not carry a rifle?:confused:

Is this a hairy-chested Western thing to be armed with only a puny pistol? Or because some goofy gun rag hack in elf boots is always moseying about getting in fights with his 6 shooter at 300 yard atop his horse.:rolleyes:

What gives?:scrutiny:

[4v50 Gary]

It's not HP, JHP, RN but rendering hors d' combat that counts and allows you to disengage.

[C.R.Sam]

Why do you not carry a rifle? If you think you may get in a fight at 50 yards (or be attacked by a bear), why not carry a rifle?

Rifle a better choice of course.

But conceivable that one has strayed from their vehicle carried rifle whilst lookin at pretty rocks or whatever.....and is rather impolitely informed that they have trod into the realm of a meth lab, hemp ranch or whatever. And the informer is using their firearm to inform the informee of such transgression.

Use whatcha got, just hope you can use it well enough.

Sam

[roscoe]

Actually, the reason to carry a pistol is that, in some areas, it is against the rules of a Wildlife Refuge/National Park, etc. to carry a loaded firearm. Now, it is generally only an administrative rule and not a law, primarily aimed at poachers, so one thing to do is carry a pistol in an inconspicuous manner (Safepacker, etc.). If you have to defend yourself, they won't care, but with a long gun you are simply going to be hassled by the Rangers/Border Patrol/Fish & Game, etc.

Also, rifles are heavy and get in the way when scrambling up and down over mountainous terrain with a heavy back on. Unless you are sure to need one, as when hunting.

[Double Naught Spy]

You want to defend yourself at 50 - 100 yards, don't think a rifle is practical, and you have time to fish around for your handgun in your safepacker. Is that right? I am kind of curious to see how you are carrying your gun in your safepacker and then wearing a pack as well.

Rifles are heavy, waaaaah! Being dead is heavy too.

If you have that much luxury, then you should be packing something like a Marlin Guide gun that can be broken down such as those by http://www.wildwestguns.com/ . You can have a ported, lever action .45-70 out of the pack, screwed together, and at your fingertips in less than a minute. With a .45-70 at that close of a range, you don't have to worry about ball or hollowpoints. If you hit your targets, then you will be doing some fairly substantial damage. Try to move such that you stack up your opponents and take two with one shot.

If the guide gun is too much, you could consider packing something like a Crickett which is a very small bolt action rifle, meant as a first gun for kids, but will serve your needs very well. I have no doubt you will have a better time of hitting targets at 50, 100 or more yards with a small rifle than with a pistol. It may only be a .22 lr, but at that distance, putting a couple of holes in people is going to significantly impact their desire to chase you down. With a nice little $10 4x scope, you could hit heads all day long at 100 yards.

[El Tejon]

ros, thanks for the explanation. I had not considered tromping around on another's property. Don't do it myself, so did not even pop up on radar.

Some things I just don't understand. This obession with toting around pistols when you should have a rifle is only one small item in the warehouse of stuff I just don't get.:banghead:

Sort of like using a putter when you should have a 2 wood. Don't get it.

[C.R.Sam]

ros, thanks for the explanation. I had not considered tromping around on another's property. Don't do it myself, so did not even pop up on radar.
Some states, public property is a vast majority of the total property.

And all sorts of enterprising souls set up on public property.

Two iron makes a great putter.

Sam

[roscoe]

Ideally I would carry a folding carbine, like a SUB2000, or even better, a SU16 (when they arrive). But that means I would have to carry it in my backpack to keep it concealed and getting at it quickly would be impossible.

Double Naught Spy, I carry my safepacker on the hip belt of the pack and can access the gun about as fast as a CCW under a shirt, like as in IWB. Plus, I don't have to drop the pack.

And out here in the west, most land is public land, so whatever regulations exist I try to abide by, at least as far as they can tell.

[Zundfolge]

Ideally I would carry a folding carbine, like a SUB2000, or even better, a SU16

Ideally it would be perfectly legal for us to carry 11" or 14" barreled M4s with real CAR stocks and burst or full auto capability :neener: but practicaly, you aren't likely to be able to mount a legal case for self defense for shooting anyone thats 50 yards away, so for most of us a handgun is fine.

If you are in an area where the likelyhood of coming across rifle toting bad guys is great enough then by all means carry a rifle of some sort.

[SnWnMe]

How one can claim self defense after shooting somebody who is 50 yds away would be the overriding concern. Then maybe the type of bullet used.

[CWL]

Carry what you can I guess, whatever load as well.

If encountering bad hombres, remember that they'll be armed with at least an SKS or a pump-action. COM isn't always available when targets engaged are prone with rifle.

[Gerald McDonald]

As to the rifle or pistol useage a lot depends on how many days you will be prowling the desert. If you will be four days, at the very least you will need to carry four gallons of water, go to some areas in June you will need more. In true desert areas you will not have the luxury of stopping to fill your bottle in a stream. Add up the weight of 5 to 8 gallons of water, tent, bag, cooking gear and food plus warm clothing if doing this in the fall and even the weight of a handgun becomes excessive.
Smugglers either dope or human would probably not wish to engage anyone if it might lessen the chance of their cargo making it to its destination, dope growers or just plain old punks are probably the biggest threat.
If you travel into Big Bend National park with a rifle you are asking for a major hassle, dont believe for a second that border patrol or park rangers havent checked you out with binocs or spotting scopes at least a few times during your walk.
Ball or Hp shouldnt matter as much as just having something.
Gerald

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

This question is certainly valid, naysayers aside. You guys will come up with anything to disagree with. If he said he was carrying a .45-70, you'd be telling the guy he needs a 7mm magnum.

An accurate auto or wheelgun shot carefully can often be more deadly in practiced hands than a rifle shot offhand. 9mm (or similar) and .357 are very flat shooting. If you can hold 2" at 25 yards prone that will only be 8" at 100 yards. Obviously, the longer the shot the more accurate handgun you'd want. Some of the CZs will shoot in that ballpark, and provide alot of fire power close up. A good choice.

[clubsoda22]

Whatever load you use will be fine. Anyone read the section of Ted Nugent's autobiograpghy, about him hitting a mountain goat at 800yards with a 9mm beretta?

[Teufelhunden]

Of course, we are assuming that the villains aren't armed with AKs and shooting me at 200 yards.

You mean 'The Backpacker' in this theoretical example, right? ;)

I'd beat feet. Is an AK capable of hitting at 200 yards? Yes. Is a half-drunk stoned bandido on the perimeter watch of a hemp field capable of hitting a moving target at 200 yards? I'll take my chances.

-Teuf

[sanchezero]

You might wanna look at a 10mm Witness. Comparable price and function to a CZ, but the 10mm might be more comforting at those ranges than a 9mm.

:cool:

[Old Fuff]

Those who live in the Southwest are well aware that Sam isn't blowing smoke. These days a happy hiker can meet all sorts of interesting folks while out in the wilds. I am not sure that I'd want to take on anyone at long range with a handgun vs. rifle, but a good man (or woman) with a handgun who knows what they're about can give a better account of themselves then people suspect. That said, the best policy when unexpectedly meeting trouble is to withdraw. A cell phone that will reach out to a border patrol or sheriff's station is an excellent idea too.

[C.R.Sam]

Cellphone good
If you are in range of a cell.

If I am away from vehicle and long gun and somebody takes a shot at me, and they don't nail me on the first shot. I have a good chance of making it. Either out the long way or back to my vehicle. I can't guarentee hitting a vital at 2-300 yds with a handgun but I can convince all but the most dedicated to go bother someone else.

Handgun not first choice but a heck of a lot handier when totin stuff. Climbin up n down rocks etc.

Sam

[444]

Not sure exactly the area you are talking about, but I have tromped around the desert south of Tuson, and I can verify that it is FULL of people, some bad. Illegals are streaming across the border by the thousands a day. You don't walk 50 yards without seeing humans in the distance running through the desert. Every wash you come to has evidence of recent camps. Most of them are probably very nice people, I am sure others wouldn't think twice about killing you to get your water, your food, your guns, or you vehicle. Literally dying of thirst, or staving, and being lost and thrity miles from the nearest town where you will be hunted by the Border Patrol will make people do things they might otherwise not do. People engaged in illegal activity have a long history of not respecting your right to life.
I was there javelina hunting during the HAM season. So, the fact that I was armed was not an issue. However, because of the possible dangers involved, I carried a muzzleloader and a Ruger Super Blackhawk. There is no question in my mind that I could pretty easily hit a stationary human from distances in excess of 100 yards with the SBH. If someone shot at me in that part of the country, I would take whatever action seemed appropriate and haul butt. I wouldn't call anybody.

[Old Fuff]

444

I live in that part of the country (Southeast of Tucson) and you're description of the situation is correct.

What I met to say is, make a cell phone call (if possible) AFTER "hauling butt."

Sam:

Did you know that the old army manual covering the Colt Single Action contained trajectory tables out to ONE THOUSAND YARDS? This wasn't for plugging individual targets, but rather making life unplesent for groups of men. I don't think anyone will just stand around if they come under fire ... from anything. I know I wouldn't.

[444]

I wasn't referring to your post in particular, but, I would do what I had to do and never say a word about it to anyone..............ever.

[Lancel]

.

[Lancel]

...carrying a CZ 75B in 9mm....Is sufficient energy lost at distances between 50 and 100 yards to make penetration rather than expansion the overriding concern?
It's a question of what velocity the hollowpoints expand at.
Differ brands open up at different velocities. Using the range of muzzle velocities listed by Hornady for their 9mm HP, XTP and their 100 yd velocities gives this comparison:
Velocity (fps)
WT Velocity Range Muzzle 100 yd
115 gr 800-1400 1155 971
124 gr 750-1200 1110 971
147 gr 750-1200 975 899

This indicates that all three of those bullets would expand at 100 yds.

There are some pretty big legal and tactical questions though. Militarily, if your tactic is to extract yourself using suppressive fire, bring along plenty of ammo. Especially if you're in open terrain.


Larry

[C.R.Sam]

Tio Fuff...
Didn't know bout the published data but tis indeed believable.

Sam

[roscoe]

I wonder if the difference in wind resistance between hollow points and round-nosed FMJ makes any difference in drop at 100 yards?