Possible Wolf supply chain interruption?


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BammaYankee
August 8, 2008, 03:07 PM
With a new war now seemingly underway in Russia, will the supplies of Wolf ammo and other imports be cut off? Maybe we should stock up asap....

Opinions????

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exar
August 8, 2008, 03:17 PM
Do you really think the Russian armed forces use Wolf? They may be cheap, but I have a hard time believing a professional army would use steel cased ammo of Wolf quality(not that Wolf is TOO bad, but I wouldn't supply my army with it). I have no data or experience to back that claim up.

BammaYankee
August 8, 2008, 03:25 PM
I was always under the impression that Wolf was nothing more than military surplus repackaged in a 'fancy' black cardboard box...

CharlesAFerg
August 8, 2008, 03:33 PM
agreed, no way they use steel cased ammo - probably some old factory converted to make it, i doubt it has a direct government affiliation.

Besides, I doubt this will have much of an interruption, as this probably isn't going to be much of a "war" for the russian, even compared to the drawn out Chechen conflict, because for the most part the military is dealing with a government entity and a traditional military, not guerrillas like in Chechnya.

Halo
August 8, 2008, 03:35 PM
Wolf comes from the same ammo factories that churned out rounds for the Soviet military. The Russians absolutely do use steel case ammo.

Jorg Nysgerrig
August 8, 2008, 03:36 PM
agreed, no way they use steel cased ammo

From where did you get this tidbit of information?

kingpin008
August 8, 2008, 03:41 PM
I don't see why they wouldn't use steel-cased ammunition. It's been used pretty widely by militaries around the world to fight their conflicts. It's cheaper to manufacture than brass-cased (obviously) and as far as function - well, ever hear the expression "good enough for Gov't work"? They're not going to care if a few rounds here and there have issues - an army needs quantity, not quality.

alex_trebek
August 8, 2008, 03:42 PM
All surplus 7.62x 39 and 7.62x54R are steel cased. Every once in a while one finds a brass cased round. I assume that the 5.45x39 is also steel cased.

The wolf factories are the former government owned factories that were privatized in the wake of soviet union's collapse.

exar
August 8, 2008, 03:43 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_Ammunition

Russian military does use some steel cased ammo (not all though). When they want the job done it appears that they do use brass quite often, especially Special Forces. Wolf is a private company that produces ammo for mass consumption, nothing more. If Wolf has a government contract, then I haven't seen the proof yet. That's not to say some Russian units haven't procured any, I'm just saying I haven't seen Wolf contracted out by the Russian military.


Another little gem for ya'.

http://world.guns.ru/ammo/sp-e.htm

Halo
August 8, 2008, 03:45 PM
In fact I can safely say that I have never encountered any brass cased Russian ammo. Not saying it doesn't exist somewhere, but I have sure never seen it. Yugoslavia was the only Eastern Bloc nation that widely used brass cased ammo, to my knowledge. The ComBloc ammo supply was overwhelmingly steel cased, and it remains so in Russia today.

Halo
August 8, 2008, 03:48 PM
Wolf doesn't need a government contract because, as the Wikipedia article points out, it is a clearinghouse company. The production is done by other manufacturers and Wolf slaps their name on the box. Those same producers do supply the forces of Russia and other countries, but they certainly don't go through a commercial clearinghouse like Wolf.

exar
August 8, 2008, 03:49 PM
Noone is questioning the uses of steel cased ammo. The OP, and I, question the use of Wolf by the Russian armed forces.

Jorg Nysgerrig
August 8, 2008, 03:50 PM
Noone is questioning the uses of steel cased ammo. The OP, and I, question the use of Wolf by the Russian armed forces.

CharlesAFerg quite clearly said there was no way they used steel-cased ammo. I think we are just wondering what his source for this information is.

Halo
August 8, 2008, 03:53 PM
The OP, and I, question the use of Wolf by the Russian armed forces.

I think it may boil down to a question of semantics then. I also doubt the Russian forces use anything obtained through Wolf, but it is almost a certainty that they use ammo produced in the same factories identical in every respect other than headstamp and packaging.

exar
August 8, 2008, 03:53 PM
CharlesAFerg quite clearly said there was no way they used steel-cased ammo. I think we are just wondering what his source for this information is.

Gotcha. Browsed over that post too quickly. Man, you suckers are quick on the draw today. I can barely type quick enough. I guess it is Friday, not much going on in my office, either.:neener::cool:

alex_trebek
August 8, 2008, 03:54 PM
Noone is questioning the uses of steel cased ammo. The OP, and I, question the use of Wolf by the Russian armed forces.

Even if they do, I doubt this conflict will last long enough to cause a serious delay. Granted I don't know much about either side, or the history between the two. I do know that Russia has been spending a lot of money on their military lately. It would be idiotic for them to be buying planes, bombs, etc and no ammo. In other words, I am willing to bet that Russia has enough of a surplus for this conflict.

exar
August 8, 2008, 03:56 PM
but it is almost a certainty that they use ammo produced in the same factories identical in every respect other than headstamp and packaging.

That's what I would assume as well. Unfortunately I can't find anything that lists the Russian suppliers by name.

Drgong
August 8, 2008, 03:59 PM
depends on how long this war lasted, then agian, did the chechen conflict impact Wolf Ammo?

Halo
August 8, 2008, 04:02 PM
We are definitely seeing a resurgent Russia, buoyed by the price of energy, of which they have large reserves in the form of oil and gas. Another sign is that they've resumed long range patrols of Tu-95 bombers, which had ended with the collapse of the Soviet Union. They still have a ways to go but I think the days of the crippled Bear are behind us.

M1911
August 8, 2008, 04:18 PM
Take a look at a world map. Look at the size of Russia. Now look at the size of Georgia. Russia has a population of 141M people. Georgia has a population of 4.6M people. If Russia is really serious about this, they'll wipe Georgia off the map like they did to Chechnya.

The war in Chechnya didn't exactly stop ammo exports from Russia. Nor will this if it actually turns into a war rather than a border skirmish.

yeti
August 8, 2008, 04:19 PM
I know the Soviets used steel cased ammo.

If you want a real eye opener, use your TV wake, as your alarm clock. Wake up the the talking head proclaiming "Russian troops invade Georgia" with night time war scenes in the background. Talk about not needing your morning coffee.:what::uhoh::what:

exar
August 8, 2008, 04:27 PM
proclaiming "Russian troops invade Georgia" with night time war scenes in the background.

HAHAH...took me a sec to get that. :)

esmith
August 8, 2008, 04:27 PM
All surplus 7.62x 39 and 7.62x54R are steel cased. Every once in a while one finds a brass cased round. I assume that the 5.45x39 is also steel cased.


What exactly are you saying? Are you saying that all surplus ammo is steel cased and sometimes a brass case is found within that certain batch of ammo? Or are you saying there's more steel cased ammo than brass cased? If it's the first thing i mentioned then i have about 500 rounds that would challenge that.

GRB
August 8, 2008, 04:35 PM
Buy Now - Buy Now - Buy Now.

Thank goodness I got that out of my system!

larry starling
August 8, 2008, 04:42 PM
I don't use the stuff anyway so who cares????:scrutiny:

Halo
August 8, 2008, 04:56 PM
I don't use the stuff anyway so who cares????

Just a guess, but maybe the people who do use the stuff????

Chipperman
August 8, 2008, 05:20 PM
Are you saying that all surplus ammo is steel cased and sometimes a brass case is found within that certain batch of ammo? Or are you saying there's more steel cased ammo than brass cased?

The latter. There are occasional batches of brass cases, but not stray rounds.

1 old 0311
August 8, 2008, 05:30 PM
Sorry to say, but Georgia will last about three days against the Russians.

alex_trebek
August 8, 2008, 05:43 PM
All surplus 7.62x 39 and 7.62x54R are steel cased. Every once in a while one finds a brass cased round. I assume that the 5.45x39 is also steel cased.
What exactly are you saying? Are you saying that all surplus ammo is steel cased and sometimes a brass case is found within that certain batch of ammo? Or are you saying there's more steel cased ammo than brass cased? If it's the first thing i mentioned then i have about 500 rounds that would challenge that

sorry meant to say ALMOST all ammo.....

Basically meant it to say that I have seen surplus brass 7.62x54R once. The coloring was off, and I didn't know it was brass until I tried to pick it up with a magnet. The range I go to has a magnet on a pole, for picking up steel casings.

I can't remember if it was Yugo, hungarian, or whatever.

Halo
August 8, 2008, 05:48 PM
If it was brass 7.62x54R it was most likely Yugoslavian. I'm not aware of any other ComBloc brass ammo.

highorder
August 8, 2008, 06:02 PM
If it was brass 7.62x54R it was most likely Yugoslavian. I'm not aware of any other ComBloc brass ammo.


FYI,

I have seen brass cased 7.62x54R from Albania and Bulgaria, based on headstamps and www.7.62x54r.net

guntotinguy
August 8, 2008, 06:04 PM
Still going to buy more,and stock up 'just in case'...

CBS220
August 8, 2008, 06:06 PM
I don't use the stuff anyway so who cares????

You obviously care enough to make the post...

Nothing wrong with wolf. Millions of AKs worldwide concur...

MGshaggy
August 8, 2008, 06:25 PM
I don't think the situation in Georgia will affect Wolf much, if at all, but now I'm kind of glad I just took delivery of another 9 cases of Wolf 308. Works fine in my guns, YMMV.

Prince Yamato
August 8, 2008, 06:27 PM
The answer is probably not. If we can't get [Animal Brand] ammo from Russia, we'll get it from the Ukraine, Romania, Bulgaria, or any other Eastern European country.

DoubleTapDrew
August 8, 2008, 06:53 PM
Sorry to say, but Georgia will last about three days against the Russians.
Maybe they'll ramp up production of 5.45x39 (isn't that what they use now, the AK-74?) for a few days.

I like Wolf (especially in Soviet guns). It's the Wal-Mart of ammo. Not something to brag about to your friends but it keeps your gun warm.

nambu1
August 8, 2008, 07:01 PM
It is possible that the russian military uses steel cased ammo. During WWII, the german army used it, I have some.

Harley Man
August 8, 2008, 07:24 PM
I tried wolf once, to save money, bad choice....that is crap ammo. If they made wolf BB's I wouldn'f use it!!!!!!!!!!!!

Drgong
August 8, 2008, 08:19 PM
I am rooting for the underdog, hopefully Georga will make them pay for messing with them...

Not likely though...

Tommygunn
August 8, 2008, 08:21 PM
I don't believe the war will last long enough for Wolf ammo to suffer supply shortages.

22-rimfire
August 9, 2008, 01:05 AM
Every now and then, Russia has to shoot up their old ammo just like us.

Don't expect this war to be quick.

highorder
August 9, 2008, 01:53 AM
update:

http://www.7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinAmmo.htm

Looks like I missed a few as well; China, Finland, Greece among them.

Kurt_D
August 9, 2008, 02:32 AM
Real quick: WOLF does NOT produce any ammo.

Their russian steel case is produced by Tula (black box) and Uly (can't spell the name and is mil. "classic"). "Bear" ammo and Monarch are made by Barnaul. Uly and Barnual definitely are ammo suplliers to the Russian .mil, I'm not sure about Tula.

At any rate, I doubt this does anything to the current supply. However, I can promise you some dealers will use this as an excuse to jack up their prices. Surplus Russian 5.45 is surplus because it's too old and short term supply is already here or on the way. Commerical Russian 5.45, 7.62 *might* see a hickup if the fighting drags on for a lenght of time and requires the factories to convert lines to mil spec production.

LemmyCaution
August 9, 2008, 09:29 AM
A war between Russia and Georgia will not be over quickly, because the US will get involved. Why? Georgia is a NATO candidate, they are an ally of the US, and the US has an enormous investment in the BTC pipeline that runs through Georgia. They're not going to let that fall to the Russians.

Wolf ammo will likely not change in price/availability. The price of oil will definitely go up, if BTC is interrupted.

The current hostilities are a BAD THING. I question the glee with which some of you speculate about how Russia will 'wipe the floor' with Georgia. It's like some sort of pornography of overwhelming state force.

That said, Georgia will probably have to let S. Ossetia and Abkhazia go (and they should), but Russia would be insane to stage a full scale invasion of Georgia, as it would force the US to defend them, resulting in World War 3.

Kentucky
August 9, 2008, 10:14 AM
If you want a real eye opener, use your TV wake, as your alarm clock. Wake up the the talking head proclaiming "Russian troops invade Georgia" with night time war scenes in the background. Talk about not needing your morning coffee.

Ha! That is great. I first heard about it on the Google News, the headline "Russia invades Georgia" really grabbed my attention too.

M1911
August 9, 2008, 11:19 AM
A war between Russia and Georgia will not be over quickly, because the US will get involved. Why? Georgia is a NATO candidate, they are an ally of the US, and the US has an enormous investment in the BTC pipeline that runs through Georgia. They're not going to let that fall to the Russians.

The US is NOT going to put significant ground forces into Georgia. We've got about 100 advisers in there, but don't expect more. There is no easy overland route to resupply US forces in Georgia, and the water route through the Black Sea would be very vulnerable. Furthermore, we need Russian compliance to supply our troops in Afghanistan.

The US is not going to get into a shooting war with the Russians in Georgia.

LemmyCaution
August 9, 2008, 01:51 PM
Can't see any need or reason to send ground troops. Cruise missiles and air strikes are more likely.

But even more likely than that is the US telling Georgia they have to give up S. Ossetia and Abkhazia. The US would only get militarily involved if the Russians overreached and took their ground forces into undisputed Georgian territory.

Drgong
August 11, 2008, 05:26 PM
This actually might disrupt ammo supply, as if the US closes the firearm market to russian goods over this a lot of the inexpensive ammo will dry up.

DrewH
August 11, 2008, 05:34 PM
I think the major risk to buying Russian ammo is a US ban on firearms and ammo imports as a sanction against Russia.

Templar223
August 11, 2008, 05:56 PM
I've not been a big WOLF customer in the past, maybe buying a couple of cases of 9mm and a few boxes of 9x17 over the last decade as deeply discounted product was available.

The 9mm had hard primers which was good malfunction practice (gotta make lemonade out of lemons). And the 9x17 has steel cores which doesn't impress the indoor range people. All of the sudden those 'bargains' weren't.

I guarantee you I will go out of my way NOT to buy Russian products after this incursion into Georgia.

John

Halo
August 11, 2008, 06:15 PM
AFAIK, steel core pistol ammunition manufactured after a certain date is illegal for ownership by us peasants, so what you found with the 9x17 was probably a steel jacket. There's really nothing wrong with a steel jacket, but some ranges do ban it either because it sparks on impact, or they believe it damages the backstop. I'm not sure if the latter is true or not, since the type of steel used in jackets is a very mild steel not much harder than brass.

Out of curiosity, what did you fire the 9mm in that was having trouble setting off primers? It seems a few people have run into that problem.

igor
August 11, 2008, 06:22 PM
Yes, the Russians do use steel case ammo. A no-brainer if you think about it.

And they're really laying it on too. They did the whole playbook all over again and nobody is batting a serious eyelash about it. I'm beyond furious in the sad knowledge that both my home countries are among the next ones on Kremlin's list to put under the boot.

The Russian Kommersant propaganda service reports that there were blacks among the dead in Tskhinvali BTW. It'd seem that the first zinc caskets would be forthcoming to the U.S. of A. shortly as well.

http://www.kommersant.com/p-13072/r_500/South_Ossetia/

Sam Adams
August 11, 2008, 06:58 PM
If you want a real eye opener, use your TV wake, as your alarm clock. Wake up the the talking head proclaiming "Russian troops invade Georgia" with night time war scenes in the background. Talk about not needing your morning coffee.

Reminds me of the cartoon I saw during the Falklands War of the early '80's. You saw a few Brit soldiers with full camo, guns, etc., and one on the radio saying, "Roger, Invincible, we have captured South Georgia. Natives seem bewildered, over." The natives in question were a bunch of hillbillies and an old hound dog in front of Floyd's General Store. I still have the cartoon somewhere in a box with a bunch of others from that era - it was a real hoot.

Not such a hoot, though, for the natives of Georgia, formerly of the USSR. At this point, I don't give a rat's hindquarters if Wolf or any other Russkie arms merchant had a 75% off sale, I'm not going to buy their products and enrich their economy. F'em. Anyhow, there's plenty of reloadable, higher-quality ammo made by US companies and companies HQ'd in allied (or at least somewhat friendly) countries.

The Bear is back - don't feed him!!!

Aren't we all
August 12, 2008, 08:45 PM
almost all of the .45 rounds the US used in WW2 were steel, I don't know about rifle ammo though.
marsh

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