Open carry harrassment and screwball LEO logic...


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siglite
August 8, 2008, 10:00 PM
So, my brother sends me a text: "JUST GOT HARRASSED BY YOUNGSTOWN COPS"
I send back: "What about?"
response: "OPEN CARRY"
Me: "Where were you?"
Response: "ON MY PORCH"
I send: "dude, call me with details."

And this is what he relays to me, giggling the whole time. Stuff in parentheses is my commentary.


So the cops are down the street
noticed me with a firearm
motioned for me to come down the street to them.

Bro: "Sir, how can I help you"

Cop: "You're supposed to inform us that you're carrying a firearm" (WHILE OPEN CARRYING???)

Cop: "You know we can arrest you for not informing me that you're carrying a gun?"

Bro: "You obviously saw it, because that's why you called me down here." (A-DERRRRR, here's your sign)

Cop: "Let me see your CC permit" (Why? CC Permit not required in OH for open carry)

Cop: "Do you know that since you're open carrying, you can cause panic.. then they have to respond with weapons drawn because you have a gun?"

Cop: "Why do you feel the need to open carry?"

Bro: "So people understand that I have a firearm and I'll defend myself"

Cop: "Then when you're not home, they'll just break in and rob your guns"

-- CCW comes back over the radio valid (moot point)

Cop: "Take your shirt, cover your gun, keep it concealed."

cop continues about kids, causing panic etc... criminals will know you have guns.

Cop: "we can arrest you for not informing us that you're carrying a gun."

I decide to not press the issue, argue the law, or any logical points with him, and let him continue to lecture. At the end of all this, he tells me he's glad I'm carrying, and that if he was ever in a bind, he hopes I'd help him out. (What???? Why? Because you harrassed him?)



Good lord. I mean, my brother thought the whole thing was funny. He was laughing the whole time he was relaying this to me. We were both quite incredulous. Sheesh. So... I guess this is a warning to folks in Youngstown, OH, popo wants to be the only ones open carrying.

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Marcus84
August 8, 2008, 11:23 PM
So if your brother doesn't have carry permit and he conceals it because they told him to (hypothetically) couldn't they arrest him for concealment without a permit? Or is that entrapment?

Aguila Blanca
August 8, 2008, 11:30 PM
So if your brother doesn't have carry permit and he conceals it because they told him to (hypothetically) couldn't they arrest him for concealment without a permit? Or is that entrapment?
That WAS a rhetorical question ... right? I mean, if two officers who initiated the "contact" because they saw the gun and then chose to make an issue of the fact he didn't inform them he had a gun ...

Brass Rain
August 8, 2008, 11:37 PM
Inform them he had a gun? Somehow I don't think it would be very smart to run up to the local coppers to say, "Hey! I have a gun!"

In all seriousness, though, it's guys like that who make LEOs look bad.

siglite
August 8, 2008, 11:39 PM
Hahah.

I actually had that happen to me here in WV years ago. I was OC, and an officer told me to cover it with my shirt. "Wouldn't that be illegal?"

"Oh, yeah, I guess it would. Just take it to your car."

"I'm on my way home anyway."

"How far is your car? I'll walk with you."

:rolleyes:

Flyerman
August 9, 2008, 12:28 AM
this saddens me very greatly. i was born and raised in Youngstwon, Ohio, and i knew some cops there, graduated with a few guys who went on to become cops, and all the ones i knew were actual real human beings, with old fashioned good sense (notice i don't say common sense). i guess everywhere you go, you run into officers of the law who don't know what the law is. hopefully, the good ones far outweigh the bad ones. and by bad ones, i mean idiotic political robots.

sorry, but i just don't like hearing bad stuff about my hometown. no offense intended or taken by the OP.

siglite
August 9, 2008, 12:32 AM
Flyerman, I don't think this type of crap is anywhere NEAR unique to your home town. This is just an anecdotal instance that happened to occur there. It could've happened damn near anywhere in today's law enforcement climate.

Kind of Blued
August 9, 2008, 01:11 AM
Wow. I would not have been made to seem so stupid. It's not my job to inform the police of the law, but it is my job to know and protect my rights.

SomeKid
August 9, 2008, 01:12 AM
Sort of funny. Just reminds me that if a cop gestures you over like that, to stay on your property and make them come to you.

After all, you can always order trespassers away.

Pat-inCO
August 9, 2008, 01:21 AM
sigh!

W.E.G.
August 9, 2008, 01:21 AM
Are you referring to Youngstown West Virginia?

Does West Virginia have any law requiring notification of police of openly-carried firearms?

highorder
August 9, 2008, 01:26 AM
Does West Virginia have any law requiring notification of police of openly-carried firearms?

Does anyplace require you to inform when openly carrying?

gallo
August 9, 2008, 02:04 AM
The cop does have a point. If someone calls 911 to report an armed man strolling through the streets, the police has to react with equal force. Maybe it's a matter of principle, but I have never understood the rational for open carry. Why would anyone want to give away the element of surprise?

Richbaker
August 9, 2008, 02:14 AM
Maybe because they don't have a CCW permit and OC is legal.....that's why I do it!

siglite
August 9, 2008, 02:15 AM
Are you referring to Youngstown West Virginia?
Ohio.


Does West Virginia have any law requiring notification of police of openly-carried firearms?
Nope. But Ohio has a requirement for concealed carry. But open carry?

SomeKid
August 9, 2008, 02:15 AM
The cop does have a point. If someone calls 911 to report an armed man strolling through the streets, the police has to react with equal force. Maybe it's a matter of principle, but I have never understood the rational for open carry. Why would anyone want to give away the element of surprise?

Why would anyone worship publicly in a church instead of concealing their faith in the closet of their home?

Same answer to both questions, because some people are free. Only cowering serfs are afraid to show their arms.

Aran
August 9, 2008, 02:28 AM
The cop does have a point. If someone calls 911 to report an armed man strolling through the streets, the police has to react with equal force. Maybe it's a matter of principle, but I have never understood the rational for open carry. Why would anyone want to give away the element of surprise?

There's one of these guys for every thread, isn't there?

gallo
August 9, 2008, 02:51 AM
Relax guys! I just threw the comment out there to spice things up a bit. I can't OC in TX, but even if it was legal, I'd prefer CC for the element of surprise. OC does not make a man more free.

goon
August 9, 2008, 03:36 AM
gallo - OC doesn't make a man more free, I guess I can't argue that.
But does filling out an application and submitting it to the state with whatever fee they require and hoping that they'll deem you an acceptable candidate for a CCW permit make you any more free?
How about any less free?

As for the element of surprise, surprise who?
The element of surprise will pretty much always be on the criminal's side. He's the predator. He'll be the one who chooses when and where an attack occurs. That's why crime works, because the victim is suprised.
From my admittedly un-tactical point of view, carrying a concealed handgun isn't going to do anything whatsoever to change that. About all it can do is give you half a chance to get yourself out alive if you are attacked.
But think about it. Some creep sticks a Glock in your face and demands your wallet. He will have the upper hand. No matter how quick your draw is, the odds are very good that even if you're carrying, he'll still be able to make a canoe out of your head before you can even reach your gun. Granted, most of us do try to be more aware of our surroundings, but no one is going to be on guard all the time. It just isn't going to happen. If it were possible, none of us would need to carry because we'd all be able to see trouble coming and avoid it. And that brings us back to why crime works - because we're not constantly expecting to be victimized.
OC, on the other hand, does make sense as a deterrent. If I were some creep, I wouldn't try any crap with the man who had a 7.5 inch Colt Single Action Army strapped to his hip. I think my instincts for self preservation would take over and steer me toward an easier target.

Last, a cop needs more justification to show up with his weapon drawn than just a vague report of a man with a gun. For all the more they know, it could be an off duty cop whose shirt rode up over the handle of his handgun (or a legally armed citizen). A report of someone carrying a handgun is not a blank check for the police to show up and just go to work shooting anyone who looks like they might maybe be dangerous.
Especially if openly carrying a handgun is totally legal in your state.
IMO, if that's the case, the police would have more justification to shoot you for jaywalking than they would for OC.
And we all know how it would go down if a cop just hauled off and popped a teenager for jaywalking...
Seems to me that if there is a problem here, it is with the attitudes/knowledge of the police and NOT with the guy who's doing something completely legal on his own property.

Understand, I'm not attacking your methods of trying to protect yourself. If CCW works best for you, more power to you. It actually works well enough for me too (I only OC when I'm in the woods).
But for the people who choose to openly carry a handgun, I say why not? If that's the way they choose to protect themselves and their loved ones, more power to them.

makarovnik
August 9, 2008, 04:23 AM
If I didn't have a CPL I would have told him to come to me because I don't want to open carry off of my property. If I did have my CPL I guess I would have covered it and gone over to talk to him.

I understand the LEO's dilemma but does he understand yours? I think it was an attempt at entrapment. I'm also thinking they knew you had a CPL before arriving. Homey don't play that game.

Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean everyone isn't out to get me.

KC0QGL
August 9, 2008, 04:28 AM
I had someone call the cops on me at Walmart while I was OCing. When my wife and I got to our car we had 9 cops confront us. They put me in cuffs, cheched my DL and the gun. One cop said "It's only a .22" At the same time my wife and I chimed in "It's a .25 auto." This was the same cop who was checking the gun. One cop asked me why I was carrieing. "I have the right." Is all I told them. 1 week later I got my CCW.

JohnKSa
August 9, 2008, 04:42 AM
Why would anyone worship publicly in a church instead of concealing their faith in the closet of their home?Because they believe their god instructs them to worship/serve in that manner. Not the same thing at all. My gun and the constitution serve me, not the other way around. While I support the second amendment, neither the constitution nor my beliefs enjoin me to take every possible chance to tell people what I believe or try to win others over to my interpretation of those documents.

Furthermore, in any religion there is a stigma associated with hiding one's beliefs while there is a clear advantage to not indiscriminately advertising that one owns guns. I'm active in the arena of gun rights in various ways, but I'm not particularly interested in having the teenagers in my neighborhood know that I own firearms.

The framers of the second amendment didn't write it so that we'd be indebted to preach the constitution everywhere we go, nor did they write it so that we'd be obligated to continually and publicly exercise our rights for fear of losing them. Rather it was written so that we would be guaranteed our pre-existing right to have the means to effectively protect ourselves from crime and tyranny. It's there for us, not the other way around.

Majic
August 9, 2008, 05:08 AM
Well your brother is better than me I guess. If I'm on my porch and a LEO who is down the street wants to talk to me then he can come to me. He can motion all he wants and I will do the same.

chipperi
August 9, 2008, 05:20 AM
Hell that cop would get a kick out of me cleaning an AR-15 out on the deck because my wife doesn't like the solvent smell.

I have a HCP in TN, it is perfectly legal to OC here but I am not out to stir up trouble so I always CC. I don't want to give the antis anything to whine about. IMHO it is better to keep it covered. However if you are on your own property that cop can kiss my redneck rear end it is perfectly legal to carry with or without a permit on your own property.

tallpaul
August 9, 2008, 06:40 AM
"causing a public disturbance" is a common charge when OC in quite a few ohio cities... some even have separate ordinances against. I have been told by several LE in ohio that while OC is legal they will charge you with something in most cases for oc in most populated areas.

they don't like it...

I also used to "run up and tell" as the law states at first when I got my ccw and 9 out of ten times LE looked at me like I was an idiot.... I said I have to legally notify you.

I have got to the point that if they do not engage me or contact me and I do not need to engage or contact them I say nothing. I will not walk across the room just because they are there to tell them.

I guess your brother can just be glad he's not the mayor of a city and someone did not deliver contraband to his house on top of his oc....

siglite
August 9, 2008, 11:32 AM
Man, there are some OC haters out there. It kind of makes me chuckle, how supposed pro 2a folks will write long diatribes about the evils of exercising ones rights. I don't even bother rebutting them any more.

MY BROTHER WAS ON HIS #$^% PORCH WHEN THIS HAPPENED.

To launch into a freakin' anti-OC diatribe about this situation strikes me as patently ridiculous to the point of comedy. Thanks for the laugh, 2a haters.

Majic
August 9, 2008, 11:32 AM
"causing a public disturbance" is a common charge when OC in quite a few ohio cities... some even have separate ordinances against. I have been told by several LE in ohio that while OC is legal they will charge you with something in most cases for oc in most populated areas.
How many of these charges hold up in court? Start hitting the LEO's with harassment charges and the agencies will make them stop. City council frowns mighty heavily when departments lose limited budget money to petty lawsuits.

pappy
August 9, 2008, 11:51 AM
"causing a public disturbance" is a common charge when OC in quite a few ohio cities... some even have separate ordinances against. I have been told by several LE in ohio that while OC is legal they will charge you with something in most cases for oc in most populated areas.
Same thing in DeKalb County Alabama. I was told by a deputy sheriff that if I open carried (legal in AL) he WOULD find a reason to arrest me.

Drgong
August 9, 2008, 11:54 AM
The cop does have a point. If someone calls 911 to report an armed man strolling through the streets, the police has to react with equal force. Maybe it's a matter of principle, but I have never understood the rational for open carry. Why would anyone want to give away the element of surprise?

Cus is legal, also... quoting myself...


Those who wish to eliminate the RKBA use many tactics to disarm citizens, and we have many tactics to fight back. I am going to talk about Open Carry, but I am going to not be using the debate on which is better on Conceal Carry and Open Carry, but I am going to be talking about viewpoint of the RKBA.

Many people do not own firearms, but are not by there nature "Anti-gun". They do not know much about guns and follow what the media and from personal knowledge. Many of us "Gunners" do not broadcast that we enjoy firearms, and many times miss chances to inform the public on responsible firearm ownership.

However look at what the anti-gun groups, and some segments of the media want to tell all. Guns are owned not by law abiding citizens, but by criminals and crazy gun nuts who are part of a anti-government militia, or by "rednecks" and other types. Not the family man, not the respectable business owner, not the man who remembers that his grandpa used a shotgun to protect his family from a lynching.

However open carry in states that allow that make people realize that many normal citizens own and carry firearms, and that its not a big deal. Just because someone has a gun does not mean that they are there to hold up a store or carry out a crime. that and as people start seeing a firearm on a normal basis, they start loosing the irrational fear of firearms that the anti-gunners and media would like citizens to have, to replaced by the rational respect of a useful tool of life and liberty that is no more dangerous then a table saw, (aka, something that if you follow some basic safety rules, you will be ok). If we always hide our guns and no one sees them, they will think that no one will be loosing there RKBA.

zxcvbob
August 9, 2008, 12:09 PM
But think about it. Some creep sticks a Glock in your face and demands your wallet. He will have the upper hand. No matter how quick your draw is, the odds are very good that even if you're carrying, he'll still be able to make a canoe out of your head before you can even reach your gun. Granted, most of us do try to be more aware of our surroundings, but no one is going to be on guard all the time. It just isn't going to happen. If it were possible, none of us would need to carry because we'd all be able to see trouble coming and avoid it. And that brings us back to why crime works - because we're not constantly expecting to be victimized.
OC, on the other hand, does make sense as a deterrent. If I were some creep, I wouldn't try any crap with the man who had a 7.5 inch Colt Single Action Army strapped to his hip. I think my instincts for self preservation would take over and steer me toward an easier target.

I think the idea is that if the BG has the drop on you, you passively comply until he is distracted or something, then you pounce. For example, after he has your wallet and it turning away, you draw, fire 2 to the back and 1 to the head, and recover your wallet :rolleyes: If you are OC'ing, you might never get a chance to play The Punisher.

Last, a cop needs more justification to show up with his weapon drawn than just a vague report of a man with a gun. For all the more they know, it could be an off duty cop whose shirt rode up over the handle of his handgun (or a legally armed citizen). A report of someone carrying a handgun is not a blank check for the police to show up and just go to work shooting anyone who looks like they might maybe be dangerous. Especially if openly carrying a handgun is totally legal in your state.


*That* is the real reason for CC'ing. To avoid being hassled (and maybe shot) by the cops. A secondary reason is to avoid scaring the women and children if you are carrying in church or at a PTA meeting.

px4storm
August 9, 2008, 12:16 PM
For once I am actually happy that I live in Akron! Our Police Department understands and is trained that it is legal to OC!

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/attachment.php?id=948

This is a link to the official training document for APD.

Deanimator
August 9, 2008, 12:33 PM
How many of these charges hold up in court?
As long as you keep your wits about you and have minimally competent legal counsel (a poorly housebroken chimp would do), pretty much NONE. On the contrary, these things regularly end up with settlements by or judgements against the cities and officers involved. If there's malice or threats of harassment, HAMMER the officers involved MERCILESSLY. In these cases, a voice recorder of some sort is your friend. Ohio is a one party consent state. As long as one party to a conversation consents to be recorded, that recording is legal. You're perfectly right to consent to record any conversations in which you take part. Lawyers generally take off running with a recording of a cop threatening to harass you for engaging in a lawful activity. And since threats of unlawful harassment are outside of the scope of his duties, the officer in question has pierced his own qualified immunity, leaving him wide open to being sued as an individual, along with the jurisdiction.

There are a growing number of lawsuits against officers who engage in this sort of criminal behavior, especially in Ohio, Pennsylvania and Virginia. Check them out at OpenCarry.Org. There are a few cops around the country who are going to have some pretty punishing financial burdens because of their immature, unprofessional, and indeed criminal behavior. I hope they enjoy their wages being garnished and their property attached to satisfy the judgements against them.

ilbob
August 9, 2008, 12:35 PM
I would not get real paranoid about it. Cops harass people all the time over things that are not illegal. I think it was some NYPD cops that killed a fellow sitting on his own front porch not too long ago. He did nothing to offend them, no threat at all. They just up and decided to hassle him and ended up murdering him.

You won't win an argument with them when they approach you either. They are in full "you will comply or else" mode at that point. Their brains basically stop working then and ego and testosterone takes over. If you let your ego and testosterone take over as well, you will end up in jail. Be the adult. Identify them and write down everything that happened and was said so you can file a coherent complaint later.

In most cases it will do no good, but at least you gave it a try. The reason for this is that cops in departments where the complaint would be taken seriously generally don't misbehave like this in the first place. Cops in departments that accept this kind of nonsense, are rarely deterred by citizen complaints.

If you get no satisfaction with the department, take it to the politicians. Make a polite nuisance of yourself until you get the right attention. You may not get anything directly, but police departments do not want attention from the politicians, and the fact that their inappropriate behavior caught the eye of the politicians may help the next guy.

Aguila Blanca
August 9, 2008, 01:43 PM
The cop does have a point. If someone calls 911 to report an armed man strolling through the streets, the police has to react with equal force. Maybe it's a matter of principle, but I have never understood the rational for open carry. Why would anyone want to give away the element of surprise?
No, they do not have to respond with "equal force." First, if they don't know more than just "There's a man with a gun at First and Elm," the dispatcher isn't doing his/her job. The dispatcher should be asking what type of gun and what the person is doing with the gun before even contacting an officer to respond.

Second, especially if open carry is legal, the dispatcher should be asking the caller if the "man with a gun" is breaking any laws. If the answer is just "well he's wearing it in a holster on his belt," what's wrong with the dispatcher simply explaining that doing so is legal. There is no valid reason to dispatch a SWAT team for a report of "Suspicion of lawful activity."

goon
August 9, 2008, 01:59 PM
I think the idea is that if the BG has the drop on you, you passively comply until he is distracted or something, then you pounce. For example, after he has your wallet and it turning away, you draw, fire 2 to the back and 1 to the head, and recover your wallet If you are OC'ing, you might never get a chance to play The Punisher.


So after you give the BG your wallet and he decides that he's going to leave and not hurt you, then you shoot him in the back?
How do you justify that legally when he is no longer a threat?
To me, carrying a firearm whether it's openly carried or concealed hasn't got anything to do with playing The Punisher. I hate to say this man, but if that's what it is to you then we'd all be better off it you didn't carry at all.
Plus, again, CCW isn't going to deter anyone specifically because you look just like any other sheeple to them. They can't tell you're armed so you look like any other target.
Open carry may not deter anyone either, but it just might.
But whether it does or not isn't the issue.
It's a right. I support people who choose to exercise it. It's that simple to me.

*That* is the real reason for CC'ing. To avoid being hassled (and maybe shot) by the cops.


And why are the cops hassling you or shooting for doing something legal in the first place?
In other words, why aren't the cops on our side like they're supposed to be?
I don't like criminals doing stuff that gets decent people hurt and I'd assume that cops don't either.
If we're all working toward the same goal, why do cops have any business creating a problem where none is supposed to exist?
As I said before, I'm all for being smart and pragmatic about working toward changing laws or fixing messed up policies, but I've heard your argument before and it didn't make any sense to me then either.
Instead of accepting it when the police do something wrong, why not work to hold them accountable and make them stop doing it?

LemmyCaution
August 9, 2008, 02:01 PM
Yes, the cops do have to 'respond with equal force.' And in this case, what is that?

A man walking down the street with a holstered pistol. Equal force would be cops approaching with holstered pistols and assessing whether a crime has been committed.

Disproportionate force would be the SWAT team scenario, and in the case of legal open carry, would be legally actionable against the PD in civil court.

Mike Franklin
August 9, 2008, 02:17 PM
Small town Rural Officers/Deputies are more likely to know and be familiar with gun laws. Any time an Officer/Deputy harasses you file a complaint and report it to the media.
I'm saying this having been in LE for 31+ years.
I will bet you that this is Department Policy and the LEOs have been told that they must do this.
A pocket recorder is not illegal either.
Also, if you are leaving a store and Cops stop you in the parking lot then search your car they have just violated your Civil Rights. If they order you out of your car or you are in your car they may 'Frisk' the vehicle.

ASM826
August 9, 2008, 02:23 PM
I'm pretty sure in most cases you can mount a crew served quad 50 on your riding lawnmower if that's what you want to do.


Yea, but it wrecks the gas mileage, and it makes it way more likely to get stuck when I cut the tall grass over the septic tank.:D

akodo
August 9, 2008, 02:29 PM
I'd prefer CC for the element of surprise. OC does not make a man more free.

I agree with your tactical assessment, but you statement about freedom is DEAD WRONG.

Being able to CHOOSE to conceal, open carry, or not carry at all is FREEDOM.

Having any govnerment interfere with any of those 3 choices (even a requirement to be armed) is infringing your freedoms.

Also, tactically, while I agree a hidden gun on your person is best, an openly carried gun on your person is better than a gun hidden in your car.

akodo
August 9, 2008, 02:30 PM
Quote:
I'm pretty sure in most cases you can mount a crew served quad 50 on your riding lawnmower if that's what you want to do.

Yea, but it wrecks the gas mileage, and it makes it way more likely to get stuck when I cut the tall grass over the septic tank

and it negates the warranty

erictank
August 9, 2008, 02:31 PM
Yea, but...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
I'm pretty sure in most cases you can mount a crew served quad 50 on your riding lawnmower if that's what you want to do.

Yea, but it wrecks the gas mileage, and it makes it way more likely to get stuck when I cut the tall grass over the septic tank.

You mean you'd USE it?!? Not me.

Well, okay, I'd HAVE to find a way to get it to Knob Creek at least once (and realistically speaking, as often as I could afford it). Other than that, it can sit there and look pretty (with occasional preventative maintenance) until the zombies rise. I'll buy another lawnmower for the grass... :D

zxcvbob
August 9, 2008, 02:43 PM
So after you give the BG your wallet and he decides that he's going to leave and not hurt you, then you shoot him in the back?
How do you justify that legally when he is no longer a threat?

That was my point. I just chose an over-the-top way of making it.

To me, carrying a firearm whether it's openly carried or concealed hasn't got anything to do with playing The Punisher. I hate to say this man, but if that's what it is to you then we'd all be better off it you didn't carry at all.
Plus, again, CCW isn't going to deter anyone specifically because you look just like any other sheeple to them. They can't tell you're armed so you look like any other target.
Open carry may not deter anyone either, but it just might.

I don't currently carry a gun, open or concealed. I don't want to have to go to the sheriff with my hat in my hand and ask permission (and be fingerprinted and pay a big fee) to exercise my rights. And things aren't bad enough here for me to carry anyway without a permit.

gallo
August 9, 2008, 03:15 PM
Goon and Aguila Blanca,

Thank you for your constructive feedback to my post. I agree, OC should be a personal choice if it works for the individual's circumstances. I personally would prefer to avoid any situation with LEOs that may cause them to get on the defensive more so than they already are. Just the other day my car broke down on the service road. I was standing 50 feet behind the car alerting traffic while waiting for the tow truck. Then a policeman pulled up. As he got out of the car and approached me he briefly placed his hand on the gun. Perhaps to straighten it or perhaps to send me a message. I'm not sure, but I can just imagine if at that moment I would have had a gun in plain sight. He was very helpful and waited until the tow truck arrived. That was very good, because just before he arrived a car with three teens had driven by slowly, then after he arrived the same car drove by again and that time they shouted if I needed help. Maybe they were sincerely offering to help, although they had not offered the first time, or maybe they just said that to not cause suspicion with the LEO. Who knows. I gave them the benefit of the doubt and waved them off.

My point is that if I had been CC 1, would not have put the LEO more on the defensive, and 2, if the teens on the car had malicious intentions and I was alone I still would have been able to defend myself.

******

OP, if you don't like people posting contrasting opinions to your post, I suggest you don't post until you get a little more maturity. Calling people OC haters and 2nd amendment haters for expressing a legitimate concern to OC is beneath this forum.

Harley Man
August 9, 2008, 03:21 PM
I would have as the cop to quote the law, statute, or city ordance that does not allow OC in his yard. Be polite and tell him I need that information so I can ensure I don't violate that law in the future. 10 - 1 says the cops can't even give you an answer. I respect and admire police for what they do and the little pay they get, I take my hat off to them, but just because there a cop DOES NOT MEAN they know the law.

Stay Safe out there, and give no reason for Barney to load that one bullet!

jonmerritt
August 9, 2008, 03:49 PM
Police do not have to resond with equal force, according to the supreme court, they do not have to respond at all, neither does the fire department. And that just gives us all the more reason to defend ourselves and take the second amendment even more, to heart.

FieroCDSP
August 9, 2008, 03:52 PM
With the rash of OC harrassments that have happened in Ohio lately, and the Ohioans For Concealed Carry work to "deal" with those departments in the form of demanding better training on the gun laws, etc, rather than a law suit, some good things have happened. Hopefully the AG's office will get all the departments trained on proper dealing with OC.

Until then, knowing the law yourself is your best defense. OC is completely separate from your CHL status in Ohio, save transporting in a vehicle. With a CHL, you can OC in your car, rather than having to unload and secure it. You do not have to declare an openly carried weapon to an officer, nor, with the exception of in a vehicle, do you have to declare your CHL while OC. It might be prudent to mention it, but it's not required, except for a concealed firearm.
OC in a holster is not brandishing nor inducing panic, by determination of the AG's office. A few of the recent incidents has cleared this up, as the officers were out of line in threatening to haul the individuals in for such crimes, which had not been committed as defined by the law.

The "CHL holder OC's in posted establishment" issue is still not defined and hopefully will be cleared up soon.

papajohn
August 9, 2008, 04:28 PM
Paranoid, idiot cops are everywhere. (I can say that, I worked with some doozies.) I was sanding a riflestock on my front porch (which overlooked a 4-lane road) when a local cop saw me, screeched to a halt, and marched up my front lawn to tell me I had to go inside. I was, in his words, "Guilty of a threatening act." Not just accused, but already Guilty! I demanded to talk to his supervisor, who responded quickly, and we got the whole thing straightened out. It was pretty funny, in hindsight. By the time the Sgt got done with this moron, he was about three feet tall.

The same cop (I think, most morons share similar features) later tried to arrest me for playing street Frisbee at 3AM, when the only people in sight were me, my buddy, and the cop. He said we were "Creating a public hazard." His supervisor also responded, and practically had to drag him away by the arm, he was practically rabid, as I was explaining the facts of life to him. That time I got his name, and I had the pleasure of locking up his wife for DWI a few months later. When he came to post bond, and saw me in uniform, he about soiled himself.

Missouri doesn't have any provision for open carry as yet, but I worked armed and in uniform, and people seem genuinely glad to see me when I stop in at convenience stores and Stop 'N Robs on the way to work. You'd think folks would be HAPPY to see armed citizens, too!

Papajohn

Harley Man
August 9, 2008, 07:35 PM
papajohn dude you are a diamond in the weeds. Why in the heck can't more Police Officers ack like PapaJohn
Thanks for being out there for us, and Kudo's for all the sane officers that protect the good citiziens of this country. I fear the bad cops just get to much press, I contend the lions share are super at what they do.

publiuss
August 9, 2008, 08:05 PM
Pappy, I think I would try to get him to repeat that threat to arrest you for legally carrying. Then I would file charges against him and hit the county w/a huge civil suit for violating your rights. I am not the type of guy who likes lawsuits, but this would justify one. Just another case of jack booted leo's threatening citizens and violating their rights. Get it on tape, get him impeached, and lastly, thrown in his own jail.:cuss:

Deanimator
August 9, 2008, 10:29 PM
Missouri doesn't have any provision for open carry as yet,
However, depending upon where you are, the cops may just ignore it.

Back in the '70s when I was going to college in Fulton, there was a farmer who made regular trips to the Calloway Bank carrying large sums of money. He open carried and nobody said a word.

scrat
August 9, 2008, 10:50 PM
papajohn classic

denfoote
August 10, 2008, 02:02 AM
Sounds to me like the Younstown PD needs a good hard lesson in Constitutional rights.
About a billion dollars worth of lesson.
Hey Lawyer, wanna new Bimmer???

papajohn
August 10, 2008, 12:55 PM
I just want to clarify things, I am NOT currently a LEO, I gave that up 10 years ago. Too many idiot administrators who didn't care much for dinosaurs like me. I was too "gunny" for them, and they were too "asinine" for me. :neener:

Nowadays I work corporate security, sitting in a mostly-empty office building, watching for bad guys who don't come around any more. Word apparently got out there's a cranky old bald white guy with a gun that works here, and if he catches you transgressing on his turf, you'd better be wearing kevlar undies.

I DO miss working midnights at the PD, that's when all the drunks and crazies came out to play, and I could relate to most of them. It's those white-shirted P-C maroons on day shift I couldn't stand, the ones who'd forgotten every lesson they'd ever learned on the street, and would throw a good cop to the wolves if he didn't salute their P-C flag. THEM I don't miss.

The best part is that now I sit here doing 12-hour shifts on the weekends, playing on the internet and repriming brass, a few hundred at a time. I tell the curious that it's the male equivalent of Knitting, and they nod and wander off.

The STL city cops don't bother me, they trust me to take care of my little corner of paradise, and I tend to clean up whatever messes occur without any need for them, so everybody's happy. It seems like in places where there's a fairly high crime rate, the cops know their business, and don't mess with anyone unduly. But out in the suburbs where there's too much free time, you can always find a gaggle of morons if you try!

Papajohn

AntiqueCollector
August 10, 2008, 02:14 PM
OC does not make a man more free

It certainly does in states that allow OC without permit while requiring one (or not even allowing) concealed carry.

akodo
August 10, 2008, 02:39 PM
how much of problems like these are the result of the attitude of "we can't catch em all, so lets have a big POLICE PRESENSE so the residents FEEL safe, even though it really doesn't do much" ?

LKB3rd
August 10, 2008, 07:13 PM
Same thing in DeKalb County Alabama. I was told by a deputy sheriff that if I open carried (legal in AL) he WOULD find a reason to arrest me.
Telling you he will falsify a charge. Very nice. Too bad you didn't get it on video or audio.

Stevie-Ray
August 11, 2008, 03:07 AM
Hell that cop would get a kick out of me cleaning an AR-15 out on the deck because my wife doesn't like the solvent smell. Same here. The good old outdoors and the comfort of my own deck.

And I'd have made the cop come to me also.

Sylvan-Forge
August 11, 2008, 05:03 AM
"Nine-one-one, what's your emergency?"

"There's a man with a gun! He's walking down the street!

"What's he doing?"

"He's got a gun and walking!"

"Does he have the gun in his hand? Is he threatening anyone?"

"Uhh .. no .. but I can see his gun!"

"Where is the gun?"

"On his hip .."

"Was he threatening anyone? What has he done?"

"No ... nothing, .. just ... it's just the ...."

"As long as he minds himself and is not threatening, there is nothing we will do."

"ahhh ... okay .. it just seemed ...."

"It's the second amendment, please don't use the nine-one one-system unless there is an actual emergency"

"I'm sorry ... I guess I just panicked .."

"Okay, have a good day."

click.

.

slabuda
August 11, 2008, 06:18 AM
I just want to clarify things, I am NOT currently a LEO, I gave that up 10 years ago. Too many idiot administrators who didn't care much for dinosaurs like me. I was too "gunny" for them, and they were too "asinine" for me.

You sound like my old man. Probably why he never made Chief. He dont play politics with the town council and to say he is un-PC is an understatement.

Hes retired now but still works there. We had power out in NW Indiana for q while recently due to a tornado. People were actually calling the PD to complain about NIPSCO not getting it on. One asked when will it be on, he replied when you pay your bill.


I tend to take after him and am not one to play politics and say it like it is good or bad. Some in the military appreciate it, some dont. Screw those that dont they aint worth my time.


On the topic of the OP. I will OC at times while camping etc but just prefer to remain in the shadows, Im a quiet and reserved guy who doesnt like attention so I CC.

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