[WheelMan]

After a couple episodes of avoiding menacing dogs and one run-in with some less than sober, more than armed rabblerousers I've been giving some thought to how I can army myself when out in the woods. (I'm usually out there just hiking or camping, or after squirrel or rabbit with my Remington 550I).

Being a collage student of limited means I'm going to have to work with what I have. On the handgun front I have a 7.5 and a 5.5 Vaquero in .44 magnum. a three screw-single six, and a Browning Hi-power (Old, and not entirely trustworthy). So I'm pretty much faced with a whole mess of cowboy guns. I've been trying to convince myself that what was good for Doc Holiday is good for me. And I pretty much have. Here's my theory, let me know if it's just a case of liking what you've got or actually viable:


For me single actions my single action revolver get out of the holster quicker and point better than autos. I figure this gives me an advantage over the high power with the first shot. Now with the high power I have 18 rounds on tap, but with the brace of single actions I have twelve, in a relatively quick to get at format (7.5 inch on strong side, 5.5 on cross draw). Plus they are the much more powerfully .44 magnum.

The single action brace makes more sense if you think of them as only the weapons you'd use if taken totally unaware, if I had more than a couple seconds to prepare I would go for the rifle in my pack, which would be a marlin .44 lever (the only thing I have small enough (and still with some punch) to carry with my .22 rifle).

I live in Missouri so the biggest things I could possibly have to contend with are black bear (very rare) and mountain lion (very very very rare, and would probably already have me down and bleeding before I even heard him anyway :) ) and of course the two legged varmints. Most common hazard is going to be feral dogs, (or hogs maybe if I catch on in a foul mood). Anyway, I figure the .44 marlin is plenty quick and plenty powerful enough to handle any of the above and the two six shooters give me a good chance of surviving long enough to get to my rifle.

Hmm.. seem to be rambling. I guess my question is, does anyone see a compelling reason why I would want a double action or automatic over my single actions. Keeping in mind I can single handed cock the revolvers very easily (bisley hammers on dragoon frame). I'd also like to hear what others carry out in the woods and what kind of threats they face, just trying to absorb some vicarious experience on the subject, thanks

[LAH]

I think you to be very well armed with either Ruger. The 5.5 might be easier to get into action.

[C.R.Sam]

I think you are on the right track.
Carry what you are the best with.
And have the most confidence in.

Sam

[Avery Goodschott]

Whoa, there pardner....

If I had to tote a brace of pistols all day, I'd be too tired to be an effective pistolero. And if I thought that I REALLY needed that kind of firepower, I wouldn't go.

These forums are filled with inquiries on how to "pack" light.

You may want to "use what you have" because you have it....but you're better off getting the right tool for the job at hand. You have an arsenal - I recommend that you look into trading one of those single action revolvers or that unreliable semi for a double action .357 or .45Colt. 44Magnum is a less than stellar performer against bipeds and the potential for rapid fire or follow up shots is severely diminished.

I have read several reports of those who did have to fight off a bear, and those guys have convinced me that I don't want to depend on my fine motor skills to cock that single action for each shot.

I went thru several permutations in my "field gun" selection. I currently go with either a 4" S&W 28-2 or a 2 1/2" S&W 686. The 357 has a myriad of ammo choices to meet the threats in most areas.

[schapman43]

I think your Vaquero and Marlin Lever gun are an excelent combo. I dont think I would bother with both six guns when you have the lever gun but hey it would sure look cool! :) Anyways you wont be under gunned with a Vaquero and Marlin lever gun in the same caliber. I keep a Ruger Redhawk 5.5" barrel in .44 Mag on my side and Marlin 1895GS 45/70 in the pack. These will soon be replaced (but not sold) with a Accusport 5.5" Super Blackhawk Bisley . 44 Mag and a Marlin 1894SS lever gun. Nuttin sends varmints packin like a armed Cowboy on the trail!! :)

[Mannlicher]

I am perplexed though, by your statement that your older Browning HP is not reliable. I have an older one, 1942 in fact, that has had many thousands of rounds through it. It served well in WWII, Korea, and with a buddy flying for Air America in Laos. Another older one, an early 60
's commercial model is also 100% reliable.

If your HP is NOT reliable, it is most likely the result of abuse. Get a decent gunsmith to check it out. I think of all the handguns you own, the HP is as good as any for a woods carry piece. The Federal 124 grain HydroShock load will do anything you require of it.

[Hkmp5sd]

One other recommendation that I've found useful over the years is to carry your handgun in one of the old WWII shoulder holsters. Basically a leather holster with a strap draped across the chest (I prefer leather over the similiar nylon holsters available). It keeps the gun handy, especially with winter clothing on and doesn't catch on branches or other junk when moving/climbing through thick woods.

[Jim March]

That 5.5" Vaquero plus the Marlin 44 will cover virtually anything you'll run into back-country. Stick the 7.5" in the pack somewhere as a "just in case" sorta thing.

Ammo: look here:

http://www.georgia-arms.com/power.htm

The Gold Dot 240grain 44Maggie loaded to over 1,300fps isn't quite "full house", it'll be controllable in your gun, but is still potent enough to stop a black bear yet would also screw up a two-legged threat (blow though, but expand on the way). Will also work just fine on doggies, kitties and the occasional pig.

There are others loading Gold Dots in .44Mag much lighter, down around 1,000fps (the ProLoad "Tactical Lite" for example) which are better for urban personal defense, but I was pretty sure somebody would load them for "woods/hunting duty" and if anybody would, it'd be Georgia Arms :).

The thing about Gold Dots is if you run them "too fast", they'll still hang together without shredding. The jacket is electrochemically bonded to the lead core in much tighter fashion. There are JHPs that are tuned to work at high speed (such as the Hornady XTP in .44) but they take so long to expand that they probably wouldn't in a human target. If the SOLE threat was bears, the XTP would be a better answer by a nose, but for the all-around performance you want, the Gold Dot is the way to go in your handguns and even the rifle.

What else...depending on your hand size and the way you grip the gun, you might be better off with a lower-slung hammer like the one for the SuperBlackhawk or Bisley. This is a relatively cheap swap; the Bisley conversion is tricky but by comparing it to the hammer you've got (with both out of the gun), it'll be obvious where some minor mods will be needed. The Dremel tool is your FRIEND at that point :D. The SBH hammer needs no such mods.

[Majic]

You are not going to draw that 7.5" nowhere near as fast as you think your are. Just too much barrel to clear leather. Leave it at home and carry the 5.5" model. Also since the bears and the big cats aren't much of a problem load the revolver with .44sp for quicker follow up shots.

[4v50 Gary]

I like the 44 combo idea. Sling that rifle to free your hands though.

[WheelMan]

Thanks for the replies guys.

I left out a important bit of info, I wasn't planning on carrying both .44 normally (though that would be an option, perhaps if I wanted a different load at hand, shot shells or something) but to have the 5.5 inch .44 and the single six (also 5.5). So the total load would be a the 5.5 vaq, the single six, and the marlin, forsaking the rem 550 I usually carry for squirrel. I felt that if i was serious about carrying a personal defense firearm in the woods I needed to have at least a pistol caliber carbine, and carrying two long guns didn't appeal to me, so the single six replaces the Remington as the small game gun (more challenging and fun anyway). I've spent a lot of time back in my scout days humping around a full frame pack loaded up for extended use so a brace of guns, day pack and rifle doesn't seem like an overload, so that's not so much the issue.

Mannlicher-
The story of the High Power is interesting and perhaps a good subject for a whole 'nuther thread. It belonged to my grandfather, who acquired it overseas. The funny little crooked lines and birds all over it tell me it was probably made before 1945 or so :). It has zero collectors value. I've done a bit of research and apparently the quality of the finish fell in the later years of occupation as the Belgians were less and less enthusiastic about making pistols for an invading army, some where even sabotaged (I clamped this one to a tractor and pulled the hammer with a string the first time I fired it, hate to be the most recent causality of the WWII) This one is VERY rough, like cracked parking lot rough. But, the barrel (while just as dingy on the outside) looks brand spanking new on the inside, sharp rifling and mirror shiny. I decided this was a sign, this gun needs to be a shooter. And shoot it I did. The trouble is it takes fits of failing to extract (has the old internal extractor) tension seems good to my non-gunsmith knowing. I'm still in the process of trying all the variables to track down the problem, my leading theory is that it happens when the gun is in a severe state of unclean, I haven't verified that yet though.

[Dr.Rob]

Hard to tramp through the woods in a quick draw buscadero rig meant to be comfy from horse back.

Ditto most 5 o'clock ccw rigs are in the wrong place for carrying a backpack.

7.5 inch glossy ruger might scare the neighbors. Though I find 'cowboy guns' far less offensive to the sheeple than other firearms.

Now let's be fair. You are carrying a 22 cal rifle for squirrels 2 .44 mag single actions AND a take down 44 in your pack?

Carry what you are comfy with but I'd like to know what kind of world record boone and crocket/SCI squirrel hunting you are doing.

For defensive use a single 44 cal revolver should be enough, given that most 'gunfights' aren't - you draw and before you even cock the hammer the bad guy goes away, and even most that are are short range 2-3 shots the 44 should be more than enough.

Now if its bears wolves/zombie/mutatnt bikers that BHP will just bounce right off.. best not even venture out of the house when the moon is full when only carrying a 9mm.

Feral dogs? get some new springs in your BHP and a decent belt holster and call it good. The BHP is one of the best pistols for 2 legged trouble you could ever hope to own. Unless someone took a file or a torch to the big metal parts, the small metal parts like springs and pins are easily replaced, cheap too.

tongue firmly in cheek,

Rob

[WheelMan]

Hmm... seems I've been made fun of, by a moderator no less. :)

Jim-

I already put Bisley hammers on my Vaqueros. Great minds think alike I guess.

[dude]

I spend ALOT of time here in the woods and most all of my potential woods problems are two legged and the odd Mountian Lion, so I carry a Taurus titanium ti .357 snub. Light as a feather and 7 shots so it's easy to tote.

If potentally bigger 4-legged problems might be lurking around (like later this week in Montana) I will lug around my Dan Wesson .44mag on the right hip. A rifle on top of that would just be a PITA and all but impossible to get in time if something has sucessfully hunted you down.

I always keep a shorty SKS or IMI Timberwolf in the truck/tent though!

[schapman43]

These Mountains you guys are in are a bit crowded. I go up in the Mountains and rarely see anyone else.

[dude]

me either, I can go for days w/o seeing anyone......but it just takes one

[BluesBear]

James Arness carried a 7½" in Gunsmoke. Arvo Ojala taugh him to draw and fire it pretty quick.

7½" Vaquero with six rounds of .44 Magnum should dispatch any 4 legged critter you come across and the mere sight of it should discourage any 2 legged ones as well. Thumbing back that hammer shows you mean business.

[Johnny Guest]

If you're prowling the woods with the idea of taking squirrel or rabbit, the Rem .22 is certainly the arm of choice. If you're good enough with it to rapidly take the above small game, you're probably in good shape to defend yourself with it as well. The accurate, quick handling .22 autoloader in your hands should allow for precise placement of the abundant supply. (What does a 550 hold? 13 to 17, I'd think. It IS the tubular mag model, isn't it?)

I've alway been a handgunner at heart, and would certainly carry a sidearm in addition to the .22 rifle. Just one heavy, big bore, revolver loaded with six rounds of decent ammo should allow you to solve any defensive problem you encounter in Missouri, especially if coupled with the rifle.

If there are issues with the Browning HP, you'll probably want to get them fixed anyway, if only because it is a family heirloom. You mention 18 rounds on tap - Suggest you load 16+1 in that S. African mag (?) for reliability's sake - - Some of 'em tend to bind on the first round when you try the 17+1 mode. Also - - Try the conventional capacity mags, 10 and 13 round.

The ond style internal extractors are available from time ti time through Gun Parts Co. and Sarco, to name two sources. Since you say it is VERY dirty, why not just remove slide and stocks and hose the whole thing out with brake cleaner from the auto parts shop? Use in a well vented area (outdoors) and then be sure to re-lubricate. You can do this without a full detail strip.

Don't forget to remove firing pin and extractor and blow out the slide as well. Whatever you do, also test fire the pistol with a variety of ammo. The older model guns have the "humped" barrel ram and don't like bullets with a profile much different from FMJ. I'd get at least one box of Win white box 116 gr and try it with that. It is a decent round and is pretty much the definitive, easy feeding bullet.


Good luck to you - - -
Johnny

[Dr.Rob]

Making Fun?

I hope not.

Just pointing out that that seems like a LOT to carry on a squirrel hunt. Would hate to see your squirrel hunt thread be converted to "oh my lord I'm in the woods alone and need a bazooka to face the unknown masses of evil forces arrayed behind each tree".

Can't imagine a 2 legged predator attacking you with a rifle already in your hands either. you are a good enough shot to hit head shots on squirrels, I'd bet you could hit a bad guy in the ten ring.

Be sure when you strip that BHP down to clean UNDER the extractor with a dental pick. Primer residue and unburned powder can lead to FTE's.

[Majic]

James Arness carried a 7½" in Gunsmoke. Arvo Ojala taugh him to draw and fire it pretty quick.

Just because you saw it on TV doesn't always make it so. How many draws did Marshall Dillon make that were left on the copying floor as they were cut out making just one scene?
Were you also trained by a fast draw artist? Or just because you saw it on TV means you can do it too?

[Oracle]

I'd carry the 5.5 Ruger Vaquero, and if you're squirrel or rabbit hunting, I'd go with a .22lr rifle for your long arm. With that, you should be able to handle anything you run into. I use a 3.5 Ruger Birdshead Vaquero in .45 Colt as my woods gun, and it packs extremely well. I wouldn't worry about it too much.

[Jim March]

You know, at least theoretically, there's another way to skin this cat.

To get everything he needs out of just two guns, he could switch the squirrel rifle to a 22Mag autoloader (rifle) of any of several makes with 9 or 10rd mags. Then carry the 5.5" 44Maggie.

My thinking is that in an encounter with two-legged varmints, the 22Mag rifle is a quite serious weapon out to 150 yards. It's no AR variant but it's not a half bad stand-in.

The 44 would be the close-range critter defense go-to, and backup combat arm.

[WheelMan]

Another option would be to drop .22 caliber all together and work up a .44 mag load for light game, maybe one that just bonks them in the head :). Any suggestions?

[Dr.Rob]

Interesting...

Ever see small game arrows? They are indeed big rubber stoppers attached to an arrow shaft.

As far as being effective from a rifle there is already a line of rubber buckshot on the market, but lest you go thinking its ok to blast those pesky kids stealing your apples the stuff is lethal at close range, as is the "rubber rocket". Firearms are lethal weapons, trying to make them less lethal is a tricky business.

Shotshells loaded with #11 or 12 are available for the 44 mag, but even in a rifle you are talking about half the shot of a 410, and leading the barrel of your marlin with a fine mist of vaporized lead.. I'm not sure the marlin is rated for firing shotshells.

[WheelMan]

You can get those shot capsules from speer to experiment with. Using BBish size pellets in a buffered load sounds nice, but you probably wouldn't get a tight enough pattern from a rifled barrel to make it much use. I'd think a low velocity .44 wadcutter would make a good small game load, just punch a nice hole in them.

[kmrcstintn]

Just stumbled into this thread in the archives and brought to mind that I am in the process of working up a gun/load combo for hiking/scouting in the woods of southcentral Pennsylvania. We don't have any mountin loins and our black bears are not as big and more sheepish. It's interesting what recommendations come about when discussing this with more experienced sportmen. Seems they were prepared more to deal with snakes and "two legged varmints."

The most common one is a steel frame DA/SA .38 snubby loaded with: 1st & 2nd shots being snakeshot and the next 3 being 158 grain lead .38's. (I only had a S&W Ariweight DAO at the time) I now own a bobbed hammer DAO Ruger SP101. (steel frame .357 snubby) I am contemplating altering the loading by adding a 158grain soft point .357 mag in place of the 3rd leadhead .38.

Revolvers are recommended over semi's since hunting regulations dictate that manually operated handguns be used during hunting seasons and different LEO's may interpret the statures differently, so use a revolver all the time & anytime and eliminate one problem if self defense against a 4 legged critter becomes necessary.

[Any Cal.]

carry the long barrel .44 crossdraw. Seems to give more length of draw, so barrel length less of an issue. Quite fast w/ a bit of practice. I did not use a crossdraw holster though, so it would pivot out of the way when needed.
Nothing you couldn't do with a .22 and .44 Vaq. The only thing I would carry a semi for is a pack of wild dogs. Although, hear this.
For a while, I was shooting a Redhawk and a SBH against my buddy with a 15 rd BDM. We both shoot about as well, and we were pretty evenly matched with those guns. 12 rds light .44 vs 15 rds 9mm. Don't know much about the behavior of wild dogs, it might swing a decision one way or the other. When I am hunting spruce chicken, I carry a single shot .22 and a .44 Redhawk. Sorry for the incoherence, but I know what I'm trying to say!!!:D

P.S. A .22 Single six and a .44 5.5" Vaq probably weigh the same or less than your .22 rifle.

[f4t9r]

I think you are on the right track.
Carry what you are the best with.
And have the most confidence in.

Sam

agree , as long as you are confident in your weapon you are good to go !!

[Majic]

Just carry the .44 magnum with a light to medium load with some heavier loads in your pocket. It will stop a human, drop a feral dog, a head or chest shot stops a rabbit, and learn to bark the squirrels (shoot the tree just under the squirrel and the splinters explode into the squirrel).
Which .44 mag you carry is up to you. Tall people with long arms can easily draw revolvers with 7+ inches of barrel (one of the reasons James Arness could easily use the long barrel). Generally in the woods a lightning fast draw isn't needed.

[Camp Cook]

Well guys I spend alot of time working in extremely remote wilderness areas in British Columbia, Canada. I am licensed to carry handguns for protection of my life and the lives of others (this is a very rare permit here in anti-gun Canada).

For winter carry when the bears are sleeping I usually carry a 10mm G20 with 200gr XTP's at 1250fps.

I also carry a 5.5" Bisley Vaquero in 45 Colt and load them with 330gr Jae-Bok Young WFNGC's @ 1300fps or 300gr XTP's @ 1280fps.

Due to the number of black bears (over 200,000) and grizzlies (over 20,000) here in BC the amount of encounters that I have had made me decide to start carrying a 7.5" Ruger SRH in 454 Casull with 360gr WLNGC's @ 1520fps or 395gr WLNGC's @ 1420fps.

I found that after I had been carrying the double action SRH that I didn't really feel comfortable with carrying a single action B/Vaquero (to hard to reload quickly) anymore but the 10mm's weren't enough power and the SRH was to big for some of the areas that I go to (I didn't need that much power).

I purchased a 6" S&W 629 44mag and load it with 240gr XTP's @ 1450fps.

I also carry speed loaders for the d/action revolvers.

Another thought is that I will not carry anything these powerful than the 10mm's for bush/protection carry.

[Navy joe]

For me, the eastern woods are too crowded and a wheel gun doesn't cut it based on weight/capacity. I'm hearing the "I Love this Bar" song. We got hikers, we got stalkers, meth labs, pot patches(stumbled upon one), poachers, idiots, feral dogs, coyotes, now one county where I plan to spend a lot of time on foot has released sterile wolf hybrids to control the 'yotes. So, I want light, effective, and high capacity. That for me is a G17, hey, that's what I carry anyway! Two spare mags in the daypack. I am thinking about a wilderness safepacker when I get back, just to keep things unobtrusive. I know it is a wheelgun forum, so two that make it with me are the 325 and 642, lightweight for what they do and pretty effective. Something like my boat anchor .44 Vaquero is not getting carried all day.

[Vern Humphrey]

I can ride or hike all day long in my part of the Ozarks and not see a living soul. I often carry a Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt. I have two -- a 7 1/2" barrel and a 5 1/2" barrel, and prefer the latter. But I also have a Colt New Service with a 7 1/2" barrel, and this is my favorite. When I carry a .45 Colt, that's what I usually carry.

Having said that, I also often carry a Colt SAA, 5 1/2" barrel in .357 mag or a Colt Officer's Model Target in .22 LR.