How the 4 rules saved my skin-- OR-- How my Rock Island tried to kill my car! (AD)


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Keaner
August 9, 2008, 09:47 PM
This is a true story of a malfunctioning firearm causing a 'true' AD! I am still ND-less, so I'm hoping I stay that way.

So, after having a great time at the opencarry.org Oregon BBQ today (thanks Cougfan2 for a great time!), I decided to go to Portland to open carry with two of the other members.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3056/2748310288_e0a511af9e.jpg?v=0
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29395648@N07/

I realized during the event, that the Fobus holster I had was not up to the task of long-range carrying, since it was cutting into my side. I decided on a Galco suede lined holster, and a 2 magazine holder. All are pictured here:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3129/2748314060_ae54263f60.jpg?v=0
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29395648@N07/

Upper left is the bad fobus, lower left is the new mag holder, upper right is the new galco holster, and the hand gun in question on the lower right. Another picture of the holster:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3225/2748314066_91424d173b.jpg?v=0
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29395648@N07/


This is a pretty good holster by the way, extremely comfortable, and fits nicely despite my lack of a good belt.


ANYWAY:
I got back out to my car, and went to chamber a round. I placed the round into the chamber (i know, it can cause wear, but I was kind of being lazy and I was sure the round was all the way in the chamber), pointing the gun in a direction that would not intercept my leg, I closed the slide with the release, and the hammer apparently followed the slide, firing the round, INTO my center console of my car! I looked down, and the casing was on the floorboard, with a distinctive hammer-hit. The hammer was stuck in the middle-catch position.

I went back into the store to see what to do (afraid I might have to call the police or something :/). Oddly, the didn't hear it, even though I was right in front

Pictures of the center console:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3108/2748310292_a06da23ac1.jpg?v=0
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29395648@N07/

The path that it took:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3187/2748310300_1c364443a8.jpg?v=0
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29395648@N07/

And from another angle:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3007/2748310302_47091834a7.jpg?v=0
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29395648@N07/

Fortunately, the round missed the part of the wiring harness that is about 2 inches back from where it went through, and it bounced off of the metal floorpan underneath the plastic. I did see the bullet in there right after it happened, but I couldn't get it out, and it moved before I could photograph it.

HOWEVER, that isn't all the damage! In that little tray, is where I was keeping my spare magazines! It hit one of the magazines, fortunately not causing any rounds to go off.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2374/2748314056_fc65b5e497.jpg?v=0
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29395648@N07/


Another picture:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3152/2748314050_88ba176081.jpg?v=0
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29395648@N07/

As you can see, the three rounds there, the round that it DID make contact with got seated a little much... see:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3113/2748310312_c9798d0378.jpg?v=0
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29395648@N07/


The left round is a brand new one, the center is the one that got over-seated, and the right is a snap-cap I have. I spot checked the height of a few of the other rounds from the same box, and here are the heights:
New: 3.22cm +/- .03cm
Snap cap:3.02cm
Depressed round:2.90 cm

as you can see, it depressed more than 30 mm!

All in all, the damage was minor. It is a hole in the console of a car I care very little about, no damage other than the plastic that broke out, and the magazine, and a single round. It definitely could have been worse! I went to a gunsmith here (beavercreek amory) and the guy told me to just send it back to Rock Island.

What I have discovered:
-It was NOT a result of a finger on the trigger, every time I hit the slide release, it drops the hammer to the 2nd notch, hitting the firing pin in a semi-open situation.
-The position of the grip safety doesn't matter
-If I pull back the slide and release it, it will not drop the hammer
-If the round is loaded from a magazine, it will not drop the hammer
-The presence of the magazine is meaningless. Only when there is a round in the magazine will it not drop the hammer.
-The 4 rules saved me, especially that 'never point at things you do not wish to be destroyed' one.

Video of the malfunction to come.

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Dave P
August 9, 2008, 09:51 PM
Good story - glad you followed the rules! But rule 4A says the less number of times you load and unload, the less likely to have an AD or otherwise.

Why was the gun not fully loaded at the beginning of story??

DAve

Keaner
August 9, 2008, 09:59 PM
The gun was not fully loaded, because I had unloaded it to test-fit holsters. The gun-shop's rules are also to keep all firearms unloaded at all times, so I left all but one magazine in the car.

This weapon was JUST upgraded to my carry piece, and only has a few hundred rounds through it, and was cleaned immediately after it was last fired.

Update:

Here is the video. I'm sorry about the brightness, its just my little digital camera, and I dont have any good lights. As you can see, I started with the slide locked back, and just pushed the slide-release. The hammer ends up hitting the firing pin, and finishes resting on the 2nd catch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3c5dYFrCBI

neviander
August 9, 2008, 10:10 PM
Where is the video?

KelVarnson
August 9, 2008, 10:11 PM
How's your ears?

FCFC
August 9, 2008, 10:12 PM
Sounds like a ND to me.

The 4 rules saved me, especially that 'never point at things you do not wish to be destroyed' one.

Um, you shot your vehicle. And your mag.

Keaner
August 9, 2008, 10:22 PM
Where is the video?
Sorry, the post above I fixed it. Not video of the actual event, just video of it malfunctioning.

How's your ears?
My ears were ringing pretty bad when it happened. Actually, the left ear is worse (i was in the drivers seat, with the windows closed, so this is the 'far' ear). At the moment, its actually pretty good. It is ear-waxing up, but there is no ringing. The right ear is perfect.

Sounds like a ND to me.

Quote:
The 4 rules saved me, especially that 'never point at things you do not wish to be destroyed' one.
Um, you shot your vehicle. And your mag.

I was with the understanding that a ND required negligence. I don't see any action that I did that would reasonably cause someone to believe the firearm would go off. My finger was completely off the trigger, and I was using the weapon in a way for which it was intended.

As for the 4th rule, I guess you are right. However, in that case, (a closed vehicle), I was pointing it in the direction that would cause the least damage. All in all, I caused less than 50 bucks in damage. If it had gone into a floor board, it would be much more expensive, if the round had gone into the seat, it would have been an expensive seat. As it is, I'm down 1 magazine, 1 round of ammunition, and a 20 dollar center console in my 'beater' car.

maestro pistolero
August 9, 2008, 10:30 PM
Never never drop the slide on a round already in the chamber, it's a good way to break off an extractor which is NOT designed to flex enough to snap over the case rim.

Also, as you found out, the momentum that slide develops while slamming home with no round in place to moderate its speed, may be enough to slam fire the weapon. It's probably time for a new, possibly extra power, firing pin spring.

Keaner
August 9, 2008, 10:34 PM
Never never drop the slide on a round already in the chamber, it's a good way to break off an extractor which is NOT designed to flex enough to snap over the case rim.

Also, as you found out, the momentum that slide develops while slamming home with no round in place to moderate its speed, may be enough to slam fire the weapon. It's probably time for a new, possibly extra power, firing pin spring.


Thats true about dropping on a round, as I've found out just recently through an armorer. I hadn't realized it, and this was most likely the first time I've done this.

However, this was not the cause of the firing. It DID not slam fire, it actually dropped the hammer on the round. I don't have the casing anymore (I left it at the shop), but there is a distinct firing pin mark (DEEP), and the video shows it hitting the firing pin when the slide drops.

neviander
August 9, 2008, 10:48 PM
Okay, I can see the vid now. It is dark; freaky story though, good reminder for the 4 rules.

jad0110
August 9, 2008, 10:59 PM
I'd give RIA a call and tell them what happened, that the hammer followed through when you dropped the slide, cooking off the round in the chamber. That is definitely a gun problem (out of spec sear, most likely). RIA has pretty good customer service, and given what happened, I'm sure they'll bend over backwards to ensure your gun is fixed right.

Glad you are okay, you did good by not blowing a hole in something you care about more than your beater. I would classify this as an AD (mechanical failure).

But here is some advice for the future: I like to check for hammer follow through (among other safety checks I make) prior to each time I load my 1911. But it is not a good idea to drop the slide without a loaded mag, which can batter the locking lugs. The act of scooping a round off the top of the mag into the chamber acts as a shock absorber, reducing wear and tear on the locking lugs.

So I handloaded some dummy rounds (no powder or primer) that I use for this purpose. You can buy dummy rounds or snap caps for this as well. Basically, I lock the slide back. Then, I insert the mag with the dummy round, then drop the slide. If the hammer follows through, I don't cook off a live round. I repeat this step two or three times (in addition to my other checks) until I am sure the gun is working properly before I load it. Also, with the gun empty and the hammer cocked, I apply moderate pressure against the hammer with my thumb to see if it budges. I also dry fire it while holding the hammer with my fingers, I then let the hammer run forward to see if the 1/4 cock notch catches the hammer before contacting the firing pin. This and my other checks add time, but it is time well spent, IMO.

One last thing: when loading the chamber, put only one live round in your magazine. When you drop the slide, if there is a problem (God forbid), there is only one round to fire. If you mag is loaded and your 1911s slamfires, you could potentially blast though the whole mag until it runs dry. Though this is extremely unlikely, I load my 1911 this way just to be as safe as I can. So basically, I top off the chamber first (with one round in the mag), then I apply the safety and insert a full mag.

Keaner
August 9, 2008, 11:08 PM
Jad- That is excellent advice. I think I'm going to start doing that check! I have a bunch of snap-caps that I use for dry-fire practice, and for reloading practice, so this sounds like it'll be a good thing to do. I never actually thought about it, and I learned about handguns from a force-trained cop, so I guess I didn't get any of these 'learned tricks'.

As for calling RIA: They aren't open on the weekend, but my plan was to call them. I've heard good things about their customer service as well, so I'm not too worried. Other than this one incident, I'm pretty satisfied with the gun, so I'm not terribly unhappy. I just want it fixed.

I didn't mean to say anything bad about Rock Island(or imply it), as I'm sure issues occur with every manufacturer. I posted mostly just because I thought this would be interesting to you guys, and I kind of wanted to share.

Wes Janson
August 9, 2008, 11:20 PM
Did you purchase the Rock Island new or used? If new, did you have anyone do any sort of modification or work to the trigger or any of the internals?

Keaner
August 9, 2008, 11:28 PM
I bought it new at a local gun show. It has never had any modifications to it, and I have only ever field stripped it to clean it. I have less than 1000 rounds through it (I bought 200 rounds right after I got the gun, and 1000 rounds afterwards, and still have ~4-500 left).

It is less than a year old, it turns a year in September. I think it is a manufacturing issue, or something that wore/broke.

Drgong
August 9, 2008, 11:34 PM
Glad your ok, could of been much much worse...

rantingredneck
August 9, 2008, 11:39 PM
Yikes. Glad you're not walking around with any extra holes in you.

gym
August 9, 2008, 11:50 PM
Glad your ok, also lucky the windows didn't blow out of the vechicle, and your ear drums didn't sustain any permanent damage. I have seen some vechicle windows blow out, if airtight, from the concussion.

Keaner
August 9, 2008, 11:59 PM
Woah, that WOULD have been nuts! I had the windows cracked about 1.5", so maybe thats why it didn't happen? They were only cracked to keep the inside of the car cool, but I guess that did it.

Now that I think about it, I am amazingly surprised how quiet the shot was. Everyone I've ever heard talk about an ND/AD says it is the loudest, but to me, it was pretty soft.

I don't think the gun was in full battery the way it went off, and the fact that even though it ejected the casing, the hammer still wasn't at the full cocked position, so I think maybe that helped.

Thanks for all the well wishers, I, and my mom, are both very glad I came out with only the holes god gave me.

dogtown tom
August 10, 2008, 12:09 AM
Keaner: ...The left round is a brand new one, the center is the one that got over-seated, and the right is a snap-cap I have. I spot checked the height of a few of the other rounds from the same box, and here are the heights:
New: 3.22cm +/- .03cm
Snap cap:3.02cm
Depressed round:2.90 cm

as you can see, it depressed more than 30 mm!...

Might want to check those measurements.:D

Keaner
August 10, 2008, 12:22 AM
Why, how far off are they? I just spot checked a whole bunch of ammo, and they are all within a few mm of 3.2 cm. It might be off a little bit, as it is a cheap, plastic caliper, but they are all consistent.

It ends up being 1 17/64ths, assuming I'm reading the inches side correctly (I only ever learned metric :/).

Nickotym
August 10, 2008, 01:44 AM
Not much to add, but I disagree on doing the function check before loading every time. After a cleaning and field strip should be plenty sufficient. From the hammer follow through, it definitely sounds like a sear or maybe disconnector issue.

Just to reiterate what another poster said, please don't ever put a round in the chamber in your 1911 and then drop the slide. Definitely not good for the extractor claw. Don't think it is much good for any gun.

Stevie-Ray
August 10, 2008, 02:54 AM
Might want to check those measurements.
Why, how far off are they? I think what Dogtown Tom means is that in this statement:
as you can see, it depressed more than 30 mm!... You're off by a factor of about 10.
Doesn't look depressed by more than 3 or 4 mm to me. (3.2?) Still too dangerous to fire at any rate.

Bullet puller is in order.

Keaner
August 10, 2008, 03:13 AM
Ah, you're right. I got my mm powers off, its more like 3 mm off... Off by a power of 10!

Aguila Blanca
August 10, 2008, 03:17 AM
I don't think the gun was in full battery the way it went off, and the fact that even though it ejected the casing, the hammer still wasn't at the full cocked position, so I think maybe that helped.
The hammer can't touch the firing pin when it's on the half cock notch. And a 1911 can't fire when it's not in battery because of the disconnector. If it DID fire out of battery, you have a lot more serious problem than just adjusting the tension on the sear spring. More likely the hammer is following, and when the slide cycled after the shot the hammer followed again, but this time the half cock notch caught it.

I'm sure Ivan and ray at Advanced tactical (Armscor) will get you squared away.

Walkalong
August 10, 2008, 10:37 AM
ANYWAY:
I got back out to my car, and went to chamber a round. I placed the round into the chamber (i know, it can cause wear, but I was kind of being lazy and I was sure the round was all the way in the chamber), pointing the gun in a direction that would not intercept my leg, I closed the slide with the release, and the hammer apparently followed the slide, firing the round, INTO my center console of my car!
Never chamber around this way, period. You pointed the gun in a safe direction thankfully, but you broke a simple mechanical rule about guns. Sure, 99% of the time you will get away with this, so I guess you just got lucky, so to speak.

Yes, the gun needs fixing, but never slam a slide home on an empty chamber, and never slam a slide home on a round. A hammer that does not follow on chambering a round properly can follow doing that. Granted, it should not, but it is bad for the gun, and you are beating up on the sear/hammer which will eventually lead to hammer follow. Exactly what happened to you.

The hammer can't touch the firing pin when it's on the half cock notch I think it fired, then slipped to the half cock position afterwards.

Keaner
August 10, 2008, 11:34 AM
Ah, you guys are most likely correct then, I didn't realize that. I learned about not letting the slide hit on a round like that, I guess no-one ever told me, and I'd seen people do it before.

Suffice to say, thats my last time!

230RN
August 10, 2008, 11:58 AM
Admission: I did not read all the posts.

"Sounds like a ND to me."

I had some trouble with my Rock Island because of the hammer following the slide and some double-taps on this account.

On disassembly, I found some burrs on the disconnector right at the parting line which occurs with investment-cast or MMC(?) production. These burrs interfered with proper action of the disconnector.

I polished off these burrs and slipstoned some other sliding surfaces and had no trouble henceforth.

If I may editorialize for a moment, I have a lot of trouble with folks who crow that every unintended discharge must be a Negligent Discharge.

slow944
August 10, 2008, 01:44 PM
I had the same thing happen to me with my RIA last year. I was at home and I usually change out my mags on a weekly basis and I had just put a fresh mag in the gun and released the slide lock and the gun discharged just missing the cats and putting a big hole in the wifes cedar chest. I got rid of it ASAP.

230RN
August 10, 2008, 02:53 PM
Well I would agree that you shouldn't have to 'smith up a new gun, but after I performed the "slickifying" mentioned above (Post 27), I am very pleased with it.

BreakerDave
August 10, 2008, 04:16 PM
I had the same thing happen to me with my RIA last year. [SNIP] I got rid of it ASAP.

I understand how that experience would make you nervous about continuing to posses and use the firearm and why you would want to get your money out of it. However, if you sell it or trade it away without fixing it you are passing the problem on to someone else. If the new owner does not have notice of the problem, that person may not be as lucky as you...

loneviking
August 10, 2008, 06:02 PM
....and that's why I carry a revolver! :evil:

mormonsniper
August 10, 2008, 09:48 PM
The left round is a brand new one, the center is the one that got over-seated, and the right is a snap-cap I have. I spot checked the height of a few of the other rounds from the same box, and here are the heights:
New: 3.22cm +/- .03cm
Snap cap:3.02cm
Depressed round:2.90 cm

as you can see, it depressed more than 30 mm!

All in all, the damage was minor. It is a hole in the console of a car I care very little about, no damage other than the plastic that broke out, and the magazine, and a single round. It definitely could have been worse! I went to a gunsmith here (beavercreek amory) and the guy told me to just send it back to Rock Island.



Probably ment 3mm.

ms

ilcylic
August 10, 2008, 11:26 PM
Yes, the gun needs fixing, but never slam a slide home on an empty chamber, and never slam a slide home on a round.

Erm. Those are the only two options. Are you actually suggesting never dropping the slide, no matter what? That seems... impractical.

FCFC
August 11, 2008, 12:13 AM
"Sounds like a ND to me."

If I may editorialize for a moment, I have a lot of trouble with folks who crow that every unintended discharge must be a Negligent Discharge.
Strawman. No one has done that in this thread.

I have stated that this specific event sounds like an ND to me.

And it most certainly is. I don't think anyone can really refute that contention. Especially, if one reads the OP's details in Posts 1, 3, 7, 9 and 26.

Definitely negligence in his handling of the weapon....

Therefore, an ND.

He's lucky he didn't get arrested.

Nate C.
August 11, 2008, 12:23 AM
"...the gun discharged just missing the cats and putting a big hole in the wifes cedar chest. I got rid of it ASAP."


Normally I am of the opinion that if you can't trust it to work how and when it is needed, then you should get rid of it. However in your case, it almost took out one or more of the cats. Maybe you have given it a second chance.

:evil:

Keaner
August 11, 2008, 12:39 AM
Strawman. No one has done that in this thread.

I have stated that this specific event sounds like an ND to me.

And it most certainly is. I don't think anyone can really refute that contention. Especially, if one reads the OP's details in Posts 1, 3, 7, 9 and 26.

Definitely negligence in his handling of the weapon....

Therefore, an ND.

He's lucky he didn't get arrested.

FCFC: In which way do you believe I mishandled the weapon? It was pointed in a safe direction, with the finger off the trigger. Out of all the people I mentioned this to, you are the only one who sees any negligence. Please, tell me, what makes you think this is an ND?

This seems like a clear-cut case of an AD, where the firearm fired in a condition where it wasn't supposed to.

Fleetwood_Captain
August 11, 2008, 01:07 AM
Well people like to make bad mouth Series 80 type firing systems on 1911's, but colt came up with the idea for a reason.

Personally, I wouldn't trust a knock-off 1911 for self defense. You might as well be carrying a Hi-Point or a Jennings.


Glad to hear that the only casulty in this mishap was the plastic console.

SuperNaut
August 11, 2008, 01:23 AM
Now that I think about it, I am amazingly surprised how quiet the shot was. Everyone I've ever heard talk about an ND/AD says it is the loudest, but to me, it was pretty soft.

This may be because of a phenomenon called "Auditory Exclusion (http://www.alexisartwohl.com/publications/norecall.html)."

pistolero6869
August 11, 2008, 01:45 AM
the 1911 45ACP is a great weapon. It requires a lot of attention. I have switched over to Sig Sauers for this very reason.

Keaner
August 11, 2008, 02:12 AM
Many do carry the 1911 without issue.

However, if I could find a holster as nice as the one I have for my 1911, that would fit my CZ-75B, I'd most likely get it, and just carry that. I prefer the CZ anyway, because if I ever get into trouble, I'm going to want as many rounds as I can carry ;)

Stevie-Ray
August 11, 2008, 02:53 AM
If I may editorialize for a moment, I have a lot of trouble with folks who crow that every unintended discharge must be a Negligent Discharge.As do I. There are some, in fact, that think there is no such thing as an AD, and prefer to call them weapon malfunctions or some such. You won't get anywhere with them.

spyder1911
August 11, 2008, 03:09 AM
Um, you shot your vehicle. And your mag.

Consider how much medical bills would be if that round/ricochet had hit him. He could buy a new car, gun, and magazine and it would still be cheaper than the medical bill, not to mention the chance of death or permanent injury.

@ the OP
You did a good job. Gun was pointed in a safe direction and you didn't get hurt. PS I'd leave the bullet hole if it was my car :D

Keaner
August 11, 2008, 10:48 AM
@ the OP
You did a good job. Gun was pointed in a safe direction and you didn't get hurt. PS I'd leave the bullet hole if it was my car

Yep, the bullet hole is staying there. I am also going to keep the damaged round and the magazine as a reminder of the 4 rules. I figure its a cheap reminder any way.

A2
August 11, 2008, 02:06 PM
( First time post, long time reader....had to chime in on this one )


I also have the RIA 1911, and funny thing, I also shot my vehicle.

Exact same situation, except I was shooting at my place and standing in the open drivers door of my F-350.
Was packing up and found a round on the ground, dusted it off, dropped it in the pipe, pointed it in safe direction, well not safe for my front seat, and clicked the slide home.

Bang, cuss, cuss... Found bullet under front seat after it had bounced off the control arm to move the seat.

It now is glued to the top of my gun safe and every time I touch a weapon I remember. It doesn't matter to me now, if it was an Accidental Discharge or Negligent discharge, and I am a better shooter/carrier for it

I never have carried the 1911.....never will. Matter of fact the RIA doesn't get out that much any more.

Thanks for sharing, I guess I'm not the only one.


_______________
seecamphan

Joe Link
August 11, 2008, 02:36 PM
Just for clarification, what does 'dropping the slide on a chambered round' mean? How do you do it? (learning what not to do here).

crankshop1000
August 11, 2008, 02:36 PM
"I had the same thing happen to me with my RIA last year. I was at home and I usually change out my mags on a weekly basis and I had just put a fresh mag in the gun and released the slide lock and the gun discharged just missing the cats and putting a big hole in the wifes cedar chest. I got rid of it ASAP."
I guess Keaner bought yours...

Keaner
August 11, 2008, 02:47 PM
Hmm... it sounds like this is a manufacturing defect. There is NO way that 3 other people have had the same problem as me, and no-one with another 1911 has chimed in, since I doubt the RIA accounts for a majority of 1911s.

I'm sending the RIA back during lunch today to them, to see if they can deal with it.

Jimmypop97
August 11, 2008, 02:57 PM
My RIA 1911a1 does something similar. If there is not mag in it, the hammer will drop if the slide is allowed to slam shut. It will not drop if the slide is racked slowly.

If I have a mag in the weapon, the hammer will not drop when the slide is allowed to slam home.

I always load it by letting it chamber a round from the mag.

I have never had a ND.

fletcher
August 11, 2008, 03:10 PM
And it most certainly is. I don't think anyone can really refute that contention. Especially, if one reads the OP's details in Posts 1, 3, 7, 9 and 26.

I respectfully disagree. Assuming the OP's finger did not make contact with the trigger (knowingly or unknowingly) during this process, this particular situation was directly caused by a malfunction of the firearm.

wally
August 11, 2008, 03:17 PM
My RIA 1911a1 does something similar. If there is not mag in it, the hammer will drop if the slide is allowed to slam shut.

While dropping the slide on an empty chamber is not recommended, no way should the hammer ever fall when doing so. And if the half-cock notch doesn't catch the hammer something potentially very dangerous is wrong with you pistol and it should be sent in for repairs immediately. Carry should be out of the question!

--wally.

Walkalong
August 11, 2008, 03:18 PM
Just for clarification, what does 'dropping the slide on a chambered round' mean? How do you do it? (learning what not to do here).The slide is back. You drop a round in the barrel. Then you release the slide, letting it bang home. It is very bad for the extractor. It can also cause the hammer to literally bounce off the sear and drop. The 1/2 cock should catch it, if made properly, should that is.

The hammer should not follow on a 1911 when releasing the slide on an empty chamber. If it does, there is something wrong. Even if it does not follow, it is hard on the sear/hammer. It can damage the sear and the hammer hooks, eventually making it dangerous. Even with parts in good shape, if someone has tinkered with the sear spring etc, the hammer can follow when a slide is released on an empty chamber, even if it does not when dropped on an empty round. The chambering of a round from the mag slows the slide down. When it is released on an empty chamber, the slide hits a lot harder.

A2
August 11, 2008, 03:41 PM
Keaner,

Keep us posted as to what RIA has to say/do.

FLA2760
August 11, 2008, 04:21 PM
"Never chamber around this way, period".

+1
Thank God you are ok.

Gottahaveone
August 11, 2008, 04:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by walkalong
Yes, the gun needs fixing, but never slam a slide home on an empty chamber, and never slam a slide home on a round.
Erm. Those are the only two options. Are you actually suggesting never dropping the slide, no matter what? That seems... impractical.

I expect that what was meant by "never slam a slide home on a round" is actually saying "never slam a a slide home on a round that's been manually placed into the chamber"

So those *aren't* the only two options, dropping the slide to strip a round from the magazine is the third option.....

Keaner
August 11, 2008, 05:05 PM
I'll keep you updated on RIA's response. At the moment: I emailed them on saturday, and got a response from Ivan who said to mail it in and they would take care of it.

Before I got the response, I called and talked to a gunsmith there, who said the same thing. I put it into the mail today, they'll have it tomorrow, so hopefully they can get it looked into early this week.

jad0110
August 11, 2008, 05:06 PM
This may be because of a phenomenon called "Auditory Exclusion."

Ah yes, I do this with my wife when I'm on THR :D .

---

Interesting that 3 RIA owners have had this same problem. A bad batch of out-of-spec sears perhaps? I know, it could be other problems, but that seems a likely candidate.

I'd would do a google and see if there are more incidents of this, but it is time to do some yard work ...

nplant
August 11, 2008, 06:11 PM
You're very lucky the hammer only followed once. Keep shooting that gun and the hammer will begin to do double-taps without your permission, and finally full auto if it is left unchecked. Not fun when you don't want it to happen.

Keaner
August 11, 2008, 07:12 PM
You're very lucky the hammer only followed once. Keep shooting that gun and the hammer will begin to do double-taps without your permission, and finally full auto if it is left unchecked. Not fun when you don't want it to happen.

I can't imagine what I would have done if it had done that while loading from a magazine. I'd never even thought to load from a magazine with only one round in it, so I wouldn't ever do that.

However, if this gun had gone full-auto on me, I most likely would have been injured. I dropped the slide with my shooting hand, so my grip wasn't very good(the gun's grip was held entirely in my fingers, with the thumb extended to the slide release), so this would have caused very significant damage.

I'm hoping that RIA will upgrade a few of the components for me to something that won't wear in a way that causes this issue.

RickW
August 11, 2008, 07:22 PM
I have been thinking about a RIA pistol but this has me thinking other wise.

Cougfan2
August 11, 2008, 07:30 PM
I don't know that this incident would keep from buying an RIA. I had some disasterous failures with a $1,000 1911. EVERYONE makes a lemon now and then.

Don't know that RIA would replace the old parts with better ones. They will probably just replace with standard parts, but I would expect they will give a little extra attention to finish details and to any kind of burrs.

cktad
August 11, 2008, 07:56 PM
Here is the Armscor/RIA Forum over on 1911.org http://forum.m1911.org/forumdisplay.php?f=17. Ivan and Ray post there and answers questions. It must not be a common problem as I don't see any others postings about it. I have 2 RIAs and don't have any problems. Post over there and see what others who own them say.

FCFC
August 11, 2008, 08:05 PM
Um, you shot your vehicle. And your mag.

Consider how much medical bills would be if that round/ricochet had hit him. He could buy a new car, gun, and magazine and it would still be cheaper than the medical bill, not to mention the chance of death or permanent injury.

No. I don't have to consider those hypothetical medical bills. Nor his hypothetical funeral expense...

The issue is not whether he avoided shooting himself. Or whether he was better off shooting a beater car instead of his new Lexus. The issue is whether OP's handling of his gun (and ammunition) constituted a negligent discharge. It clearly was, based on his own statments.


@ the OP
You did a good job. Gun was pointed in a safe direction and you didn't get hurt.
Hardly a "good job." OP had an ND. Shot up his car by improperly handling a carry gun that hadn't been checked out properly. Risked getting arrested.

Bad outcome. All NDs are.

WayneConrad
August 11, 2008, 08:22 PM
OP had an ND. Shot up his car by improperly handling a carry gun that hadn't been checked out properly. Risked getting arrested.

Oh? Which Oregon state law did Keaner violate?

I think you've made your point that you believe it to be a negligent discharge. You are, for the most part, alone in your belief. That does not make you wrong--plenty of geniuses were alone. But it should make you wonder. To continue to hammer the point home as you do, and now to add to it this assertion that Keaner has broken the law, without any evidence to support it, well, that's just argumentative.

Keaner
August 11, 2008, 08:49 PM
FCFC: You STILL haven't answered the questions I posed earlier, so I doubt you are going to answer WayneConrad's.

However, just so you don't have to go back to read: what handling did you see that I did that caused the firearm to go off? My finger was off the trigger, it was pointed in a safe direction.

As for loading a round in that manner, it is not good for the firearm as many have said, however it should not (and DID not) cause the weapon fire. What caused the weapon to fire was a defect in the firearm's sear system.

For anyone's information who cares. When I went to drop the weapon off at a gun shop to have them ship back (I would have shipped it myself, but the UPS store and Kinkos wouldn't accept it, and there isn't a reasonably close 'real' post office), he placed a magazine in it to try and load a round correctly (snap caps obviously), and the hammer dropped anyway.

If the mere act of chambering a round is cause for negligence, than anyone who has ever fired a gun is negligent.

Walkalong
August 11, 2008, 10:32 PM
Originally Posted by walkalong
Yes, the gun needs fixing, but never slam a slide home on an empty chamber, and never slam a slide home on a round.


I expect that what was meant by "never slam a slide home on a round" is actually saying "never slam a a slide home on a round that's been manually placed into the chamber"Yes, I did not word it well.

Are you actually suggesting never dropping the slide, no matter what? That seems... impractical.
Yep. Never slam a slide home on an empty chamber, for reasons I outlined. Maybe I was not clear.

So those *aren't* the only two options, dropping the slide to strip a round from the magazine is the third option.....
Third option? It is the first and only acceptable option.

Do people do it. Yep. Does it instantly break something. Nope. Have I done it. Yep. Is it bad for the pistol and can enough of it cause problems. YEP. :)

FCFC
August 11, 2008, 11:05 PM
OP had an ND. Shot up his car by improperly handling a carry gun that hadn't been checked out properly. Risked getting arrested.

Oh? Which Oregon state law did Keaner violate?

Who said it was a state law?

I don't know for sure if Keaner was guilty of a law violation. But I have enough support to say he "risked getting arrested." Depends where he was. He indicated he was in Portland when he discharged his gun.

Here's the code for Portland OR on the matter:

http://www.portlandonline.com/Auditor/index.cfm?c=28514#cid_15438

14A.60.020 Discharge of a Firearm.
(Amended by Ordinance No. 178428, effective May 26, 2004.)

A. It is unlawful for any person to discharge a firearm in the City or upon its boundaries.

B. This Section does not apply to:
1. A person discharging a firearm in the lawful defense of person or property;

2. A person discharging a firearm on a public or private shooting range, shooting gallery, or other area designed, built, and lawfully operating for the purpose of target shooting;

3. A person conducting an athletic contest who fires blank ammunition toward the sky;

4. A person authorized to fire blank ammunition as part of military or police ceremonies;

5. A person authorized by permit of the Chief of Police to discharge blank ammunition for a lawful purpose;

6. Hunter safety instructors of the Oregon State Game Commission or their pupils who are engaged in hunter safety training classes sponsored by the Commission;

7. A police officer in the performance of official duty;

8. Employees or contractors of the Port of Portland engaged in flight safety hazard abatement at and around Portland International Airport to comply with FAR Part 139.337.


I don't see an exclusion for:

Citizen who is being "kind of lazy" and is trying a new (and generally unrecommended) method to charge his carry gun out in public.




I think you've made your point that you believe it to be a negligent discharge. You are, for the most part, alone in your belief.
I doubt that I am alone in my belief. Your own statement acknowledges that.

It's not politically correct on gun forums to point out to a guy who mishandled his gun that he had an ND. The results are more "Glad you're OK" and "Could have been worse!" comments than "You should have checked out your gun more thoroughly before you committed it to carry status." or "What the heck are you thinking, loading up a round in the chamber like that?"

Funny how that works out. But it doesn't help the fellow very much. He actually started off this thread by saying "I am still ND-less..." Doesn't help the anyone to fail to critically analyze his incident.


To continue to hammer the point home as you do, and now to add to it this assertion that Keaner has broken the law, without any evidence to support it, well, that's just argumentative.
Please read my original statements. I said: "He risked getting arrested." "He's lucky he didn't get arrested."

You're changing it to something else. That's false argumentation. Easy to spot.

hoosier8
August 11, 2008, 11:27 PM
Keaner: Any 1911 can do this. There is a whole litany of procedures to test the proper effectiveness of the 1911 safeties. I bought a 1980's Springfield milspec. Before I discovered the method of testing the safeties, I was playing with it one day, unloaded, and after pulling hard on the trigger with the safety on, and the hammer dropped on the third pull. This after carrying it for awhile. I ended up having to replace the safety.

I am sorry that I don't have that testing procedure handy but you could Google it, I am sure. It is probably in any 1911 Armory guide. I now test my 1911's before I put them into service as a habit (your video is one of the tests).

I guess the moral of the story is that there is more to learn, and the more you learn, the safer you will be.

WayneConrad
August 12, 2008, 02:44 AM
Citizen who is being "kind of lazy" and is trying a new (and generally unrecommended) method to charge his carry gun out in public.

I object to this characterization of Keaner's actions. It's a borderline attack upon his character.

Keaner agrees with you that the way he loaded the pistol was poor. However, he has explained that the poor method he used to load the pistol was not the reason it discharged. Is his explanation unreasonable?

General Geoff
August 12, 2008, 04:07 AM
Accidental discharge resultant from a gun with a malfunction that surfaced during a less-than-ideal loading procedure.

Still an accidental discharge.


If you slam the hood on your car instead of gently pushing it closed, and the car slips out of gear and rolls into a ditch, is it your fault?

Odd Job
August 12, 2008, 04:25 AM
Looks like a genuine AD to me.
I have had one ND. My finger was on the trigger at the time.

I've also X-rayed a guy who had a ND while seated in his vehicle. He was handling a Lorcin .45 tucked in the front of his pants and there was a discharge. He put a Black Talon through his inner thigh. It missed his scrotum by a few millimetres and made a large 5cm exit wound at the back of his thigh. The round went through the seat and he recovered it, perfectly expanded, and showed it to me later that same evening.
Luckily he missed his femoral artery and didn't do any neurological damage. He went home the same day with stitches and antibiotics.

nplant
August 12, 2008, 02:44 PM
If you're going to load your weapon anywhere that there is not an adequate backstop to point at, technically, you did violate one of the four rules. I guess, though, that since you call this your beater car, it's not really something you don't want to destroy, so I can see how you would consider that pointing it at your car is a "safe direction."

That said, a car is made of some soft metal and some harder metal. A ricochet could have ruined your day (even worse than this did).

Maybe it would be a good idea to own one of these:
http://www.safedirection.com/ballisticcontainment/academypad.html

Fleetwood_Captain
August 12, 2008, 02:51 PM
As far as all this talk against dropping slides on chambered rounds is concerned, I drop my bolt on chambered rounds in my shotgun every time I use it. A well built gun should not slam-fire.

The issue here that was never addressed is if he had a loaded magazine in the gun when he released the slide onto a chambered round. That method is known to cause malfunctions.

Keaner
August 12, 2008, 03:07 PM
No loaded magazine in the gun. It was completely empty except for that one poorly chambered round.

That pad does look pretty cool actually... It might be something to consider. For the moment, I think I'll just not unload the gun in any situation but while I'm home, and set up some sort of sand-box to protect my apartment.

230RN
August 12, 2008, 03:08 PM
The issue here that was never addressed is if he had a loaded magazine in the gun when he released the slide onto a chambered round. That method is known to cause malfunctions.

I'm not clear on what you mean here, unless you're using sarcasm.

Letting the slide pull up a round from the mag while a loaded cartridge is all or part way into the chamber?

Seems to me if the nose of the cartridge coming up doesn't jam on the rim of the partly chambered round (most likely effect), it might fire the round sitting there in the chamber, leading to a "malfunction," AKA KB.

I doubt it, but is that what you mean?

hankdatank1362
August 12, 2008, 03:32 PM
If you're going to load your weapon anywhere that there is not an adequate backstop to point at, technically, you did violate one of the four rules.

When releasing the slide, or charging the pistol in any other manner, I point the muzzle at the ground, unless I'm in the middle of a firing string or at the range.

However, when in a car, pointing at the ground isn't so easy. You have console and floorboard. His console just happened to be the unlucky recipient of hot lead.

And hammer follow= ACCIDENTAL discharge, mechanical in nature, for all those (read: FCFC) who seem to think otherwise.

Yes, dropping the slide on one in the pipe is a bad idea, for many reasons. But that's not what caused the AD.

Here's a good rule of thumb. If the gun goes off without activation of the trigger, its a friggin AD.

http://re3.yt-thm-a02.yimg.com/image/25/m2/2280573437

VegasOPM
August 12, 2008, 04:09 PM
:banghead::banghead::banghead:
I'm guessing that the ND vs AD thing rests solely on the fact that the round was inserted directly into the chamber as opposed to being stripped from the magazine. While not a perfect method, I do practice this regularly for tactical situations (just because the mag is busted doesn't mean that the gun is worthless) and I can say that it has never happened with any of my 1911's.
I did however have an AD when a trigger job was poorly executed. The sear followed and I put a hole in the floor. The round was stripped from a magazine and the slide release was used. "Easing down" the slide to chamber a round is not proper protocol. Spring tension is needed to assure full battery.

bowl443
August 12, 2008, 05:41 PM
Here's a good rule of thumb. If the gun goes off without activation of the trigger, its a friggin AD.


No finger on the trigger equals AD.

It might not have been the best of handling practices, but still an AD IMHO.

nplant
August 12, 2008, 07:08 PM
No argument on the "AD/ND" thing from me - I just pointed out that one could argue that one of the rules was not strictly followed. To follow it, I offered a suggestion of a product that might have provided some additional safety to the OP. No panties in bunches. Just tryin' to be helpful.

Oh, and it's not a slamfire when the sear, safety or other piece mechanically breaks and the hammer strikes the firing pin. That's called a mechanical failure. It's not the same as a slamfire, which occurs when a (normally) free-floating firing pin either becomes jammed into place by cosmoline or other gunk and touches off a round, OR when the primer cup of the round being sent into battery is very soft, and the inertia of the firing pin is enough to set off the primer.

That, and your pump action shotgun just doesn't work in the same way as a 1911.

Keaner - glad to hear that you only had the one round in the pipe. For some reason, I imagined that you magically got the slide to close over a magazine full of ammo (yeah, I know, I wasn't picturing the scenario exactly right). I'm also glad that you didn't have to pay the good doctors at your local emergency room any money.

FCFC
August 12, 2008, 07:47 PM
No finger on the trigger equals AD.

Hardly a good rule.

There was a story a year or two ago of an LEO who went to a restaurant men's room to relieve himself. He went into a stall and prepared to do his biz, hanging his GLOCK on the coat hook on the inside of the door.

When done, he went to retrieve the pistol, reaching for it by the handle. Unfortunately, and stupidly, he pushed the gun up...just a leetle bit...and...
KAPOW!!!!

.40 caliber hole in the ceiling. :(

The LEO never touched the trigger.

According to your criterion, the men's room stall LEO shooter did not have a ND.

That was hardly the case. He got in big trouble for it.

Although most NDs happen from putting the ole booger hook on the bang switch, they don't all happen that way. It's possible to make a gun discharge by simply handling it in the wrong way.

Or by handling a defective gun in an unsafe manner that could have been avoided. That's what the OP did. He decided to load his gun, in a spur of the moment, in a manner that was improper and that he never used before. If he wanted to load up individual rounds through the port, he should have tested his gun before he started carrying it. He failed to do so. The reason he failed to do so is that he was a raw beginner. He had finally gotten his carry gun after waiting a long time waiting. He checked out the gun and pronounced it fit for carry. Then he carried a gun and loaded it in a manner that was incredibly lazy and a) that made no sense, and, b) that he had never practiced or checked out before. Even though he easily could have done it. He decided to carry an unsafe gun.

And had an ND the first time he carried.

A shame.

He's lucky he didn't get arrested.

I wish him better luck next time.

Keaner
August 12, 2008, 09:10 PM
FCFC- I think I see your mistake in this. I HAD dropped the slide in that manner before, just without a round in it. This was the first time it malfunctioned in the way that dropped the hammer. This was the 'first time' that it dropped the hammer on closing the slide.

By the time I sent it out, it was dropping the hammer to the 2nd notch no matter what the situation. I had tested the gun quite a bit, and had carried it before, without issue.

I think I just got unlucky that the first time it decided to malfunction was the time that it had a round in the chamber :(

bowl443
August 13, 2008, 12:16 PM
According to your criterion, the men's room stall LEO shooter did not have a ND.

I'm not saying that this is a rule to follow for safety, just a form of classifying AD/ND.

I agree that simply removing your finger from the trigger isn't enough to be an addendum to the four rules.

Fleetwood_Captain
August 14, 2008, 01:07 AM
Well I never claimed to be the formost expert here. Sure, the 1911 is old fashioned an likes to be shot a certain way. But if the hammer is following the slide, then there's obviously something going seriously wrong here.

At any rate, it sounds like this is simply a defective gun. Not suprising for a knockoff 1911 that retails for the same price as a Charter Arms Bulldog.

Keaner
August 27, 2008, 08:11 PM
UPDATE:

I just got the 1911 back from RIA, and it seems to be fixed. I think they did some 'tuning' as well, since the trigger and seem smother.

They were pretty good for support, though I still would have rathered this didn't happen.

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