Needing patent attourney recommendation


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brigadier
August 11, 2008, 08:02 PM
I invented a unique and critical firearm accessory about 5 years ago but couldn't afford a patent nor am I good in economics (wheeling and dealing) but I finally found an investor who is a business owner and willing to help with the economics but we are still in need of a patent attorney. We want someone local who is knowledgeable and experienced in patents related to firearms. Local means the California central valley, preferably in the Sacramento area.
Any recommendations?

BTW.
I bet that most of you guys will have this thing on your guns within 3 years of when it hits the market. It's pretty high-demand, conveniant and shouldn't be very expensive.

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XDShooter07
August 11, 2008, 08:40 PM
Can't help with the attorney but you have me intrigued. What don't I have on my guns now that I will within three years of it hitting the market because it's high-demand and convenient. Man, I guess I'll have to wait. Once you get the patent be sure and tell us what it is.

Kharn
August 11, 2008, 08:52 PM
You might not be eligible to get a patent due to the length of time since you invented it and your attempts to find an investor. Ask around among friends & family for a lawyer, then ask the lawyer for a patent attorney's number.

Kharn

Sam
August 11, 2008, 09:45 PM
Check out the Martindale- Hubble directory
http://www.martindale.com/

There are 6 in Sacto but only 1 worth diddly squat.
Have much money in hand

Sam

Jeff White
August 11, 2008, 10:12 PM
You might PM our own Henry Bowman.

Jeff

armedandsafe
August 11, 2008, 10:40 PM
www.palomarpatent.com

Calif Tervo is an old friend of mine. One of his very first patents was for my son. All the reports I've heard about him are very good.

Pops

brigadier
August 12, 2008, 10:53 PM
You might not be eligible to get a patent due to the length of time since you invented it and your attempts to find an investor. Ask around among friends & family for a lawyer, then ask the lawyer for a patent attorney's number.


As of a month ago, no one has attempted to patent it. I have told a few people what it does and most question how it's even possible. Even after demonstrating the function, my investor was confused at how it could work before I showed her how.

Brass Rain
August 12, 2008, 10:59 PM
Is it something to be used on a handgun, a rifle, or a shotgun? Or all three?

Soybomb
August 12, 2008, 11:00 PM
We shall call it ginger.... :D

Seriously good luck ;)

brigadier
August 12, 2008, 11:23 PM
Is it something to be used on a handgun, a rifle, or a shotgun? Or all three?

Sorry. No details. You'll just have to be patient.

brigadier
August 12, 2008, 11:37 PM
Calif Tervo is an old friend of mine. One of his very first patents was for my son. All the reports I've heard about him are very good.

Too far away. I am in the Sacramento area. We need someone no further then maybe the bay area, but preferably Sacramento or Placer counties.

Maelstrom
August 12, 2008, 11:42 PM
Whatever you decide to do, hurry! I came up with a great automotive brake system about 15 years ago that recharges a vehicle as you stop.

I told everybody I knew, was told repeatedly to patent it, ignored the advice, and then saw it a couple of years ago in Motor Trend.

Stupid stupid me. The damn thing was on a Porche.

Floppy_D
August 12, 2008, 11:52 PM
I looked into a patent myself. I was told to start with a PPA, provisional patent application. It is a short term (1 year) patent that allows you to declare your ideas and commence the patent process, inexpensively, so you that you may spend the next year filling in details. My idea, I later discovered, was in use by the Jamaican Gov't, so I didn't move forward.

If you have a cool idea, get moving now, and keep your yap shut, despite all of our interest in hearing what you have to say. :)

jakemccoy
August 13, 2008, 12:18 AM
See your PM.

koginam
August 13, 2008, 12:34 AM
back in the 70's I came up with a great idea, to put tape on disposable diapers, originally they used diaper pins to hold them I used duct tape, I thought about patenting the idea but put it off as a not very important product, If only!
contact Denny Elliott inventor of the eyeblind www.eyeblindllc.com he has always been willing to help others get their ideas into production and knows about selling firearms related products.

mr.72
August 13, 2008, 12:49 AM
FWIW I have worked with two patent law firms and there was an enormous difference in the quality of work. One was local, the other was not. Suffice to say going with the name brand, non-local patent firm was far and away the better choice. For that reason I can whole-heartedly recommend Baker-Botts.

http://www.bakerbotts.com/departments/department_detail.aspx?id=6ab9e7a9-e509-4e94-9390-44ab713482ab

XDShooter07
August 13, 2008, 02:08 AM
Whatever you decide to do, hurry! I came up with a great automotive brake system about 15 years ago that recharges a vehicle as you stop.

I told everybody I knew, was told repeatedly to patent it, ignored the advice, and then saw it a couple of years ago in Motor Trend.

Stupid stupid me. The damn thing was on a Porche.

They use the same type of system on the toyota prius to recharge the batteries that power the electric motor.

brigadier
August 13, 2008, 03:33 AM
Whatever you decide to do, hurry! I came up with a great automotive brake system about 15 years ago that recharges a vehicle as you stop.

I told everybody I knew, was told repeatedly to patent it, ignored the advice, and then saw it a couple of years ago in Motor Trend.

Stupid stupid me. The damn thing was on a Porche.

No problem there. I have been trying very hard for the last 5 years to get some help as I just don't make enough money to afford this nor do I have the skills to market it.
For that 5 years, I have either been getting my face laughed in or had people say "interesting" and then move on. One company verbally took interest but never sent me a signed copy of a non-discloser form when prompted, so I just gave up on them.
I learned that a family friend was looking to promote a new idea and talked with her about it. She gave me a chance and now that I have earned credibility with her and now that she's seen it, she has become dedicated to help get this thing off the ground, something I never could have done on my own.
I know what it is that I have and know it's value at minimum and I am not playing games with getting it patented and on the shelf.

maestro pistolero
August 13, 2008, 04:10 AM
Brown Martin Haller, and McClain. San Diego California. They did fantastic work on an LE product for me.

Daniel_Junglist
August 13, 2008, 04:57 AM
anything to do with this?
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=374507

Bendutro
August 13, 2008, 07:52 AM
I've talked to this gent before, nice guy and not too far to Chico.
It's a good excuse to visit the Sierra Nevada Brewery too!

Bodnar, William Patent Attorney
Phone: (530) 899-7092

daskro
August 13, 2008, 08:37 AM
I am currently going through the patent process and went for the provisional patent route. As others said getting a provisional patent allows you to secure a 1 year time frame to seek out investors/suppliers/whatever before you will need to pursue a non-provisional patent. Provisionals are great because they only cost a few hundred bucks, but it's important to note that regardless you will have to get a non-provisional within that 1 year time period. I went with a larger national firm (top 50 firm) and I'm looking at 10-15 grand and a 2+ year time frame until the patent will be secured.

I can't speak for firearm related patents, but I'd fair that some kinds of products (such as firearm accessories) will be much easier to patent than other industries (in my case film equipment manufacturing).

mr.72
August 13, 2008, 09:24 AM
You don't have to hire a patent attorney to prepare the application for you. You can prepare it yourself and then just pay the fee. Last time I checked it was only a few hundred dollars. However a patent attorney, or at least a good one (or patent agent) will help to make sure your patent is not easily violated without your being protected, and will also be very good at making it as broad as possible.

Also IIRC (it's been a few years since I filed a patent) you have one year from the first public or documented disclosure of the idea to patent it. Sounds like you probably have violated this year. It won't matter for the initial patent but if you try and sue someone when they use your idea without your permission then they will certainly dig up some public disclosure or documentation that predates the patent application by more than a year and make your patent basically invalid.

mr.72
August 13, 2008, 09:29 AM
FWIW daskro you are right, some patents are very easy to get, because they are in a field where there is little innovation, little money involved in such innovation, and little competition at the cutting edge. I would think firearms fit this description very well.

Now try working for a network/internet equipment company and doing patents. I have had an application under dispute for 7 years now. Sheesh. There is big money to be made and lost on internet/network patents.

Henry Bowman
August 13, 2008, 10:04 AM
I am a patent attorney and have experience in the firearms area. I'd be happy to talk to you and share information.

Jim Watson
August 13, 2008, 11:08 AM
brigadier,

Is this something you are going to manufacture yourself? If so, there are a lot of profitable unpatented products. Get the first production run on the market and establish the Brigadier Gadget as THE thing to have, and copies might have a hard time catching up.

Owen
August 13, 2008, 11:37 AM
maelstrom,, regenerative braking is oh, 70 years old.

Maelstrom
August 13, 2008, 11:52 AM
They use the same type of system on the toyota prius to recharge the batteries that power the electric motor.

maelstrom,, regenerative braking is oh, 70 years old.

That's like saying firearms are 500 years old and so a new model can't be patented.

My idea was different than anything out at the time.

Henry Bowman
August 13, 2008, 02:10 PM
You don't have to hire a patent attorney to prepare the application for you. You can prepare it yourself and then just pay the fee. Last time I checked it was only a few hundred dollars. You can also perform heart or brain surgery on yourself. Results will likely have some similarity.

However a patent attorney, or at least a good one (or patent agent) will help to make sure your patent is not easily violated without your being protected, and will also be very good at making it as broad as possible.That's why we get paid what we do. It's not enough to be as broad as possible. It has to be valid and enforceable to be of any value. It is true, however, that providing a good written disclosure and drawings at the start will save you a significant amount on the cost of preparing and filing a patent application.

Also IIRC (it's been a few years since I filed a patent) you have one year from the first public or documented disclosure of the idea to patent it. Sounds like you probably have violated this year. It won't matter for the initial patent but if you try and sue someone when they use your idea without your permission then they will certainly dig up some public disclosure or documentation that predates the patent application by more than a year and make your patent basically invalid.Here you are pretty accurate, though I can't say for sure from the information given whether he has a statutory bar (time) problem.

mr.72
August 13, 2008, 03:41 PM
Mr. Bowman, I was not denigrating the value of a patent attorney. On the contrary, I think it's well worth it if you do indeed have a potentially marketable idea.

Of course I have five patent plaques on the wall, of which only one has ever been put into use in any product. That's a lot of money to spend on attorney fees for ideas that will end up in the round file anyway.

brigadier
August 13, 2008, 05:02 PM
You can prepare it yourself and then just pay the fee. Last time I checked it was only a few hundred dollars.
You can also perform heart or brain surgery on yourself. Results will likely have some similarity.

I here you there. I actually have some experience and skill in writing legal documents and such. In many instances, I can hold my own, but when it comes to patents, it's just enough to run away screaming when I look at a patent on the patent offices website.
Even if you can write it in a way that protects yourself, it doesn't mean that it will be written in a way that doesn't trespass on other patents in some way in which case the patent office will reject it. There is only one partially reliable way to get it right the first time and that's through both training and experience.
I am about 70% confident in my ability to write a patent in a way that protects me, but I am also 99.5% positive that if I send it to the US patent office, they are going to send it right back to me with a big "DECLINED" stamp on it.

jakemccoy
August 13, 2008, 06:33 PM
Hi brig,

A patent application passed without a rejection is either a pioneering invention or probably worthless. I suggest talking with Bowman (or with me further through PM). I can tell that Bowman has experience here. Bowman hasn't told you, but he has neutered his legal jargon here such that the masses can understand.

This field is so specialized and filled with so many nuances that it really doesn't matter how smart you are. You need an attorney with experience. I have dealt with unassuming geniuses with so much brain power that it's unfair. Each of them absolutely needs an experienced attorney as well.

Regards,
Jake

Dave Markowitz
August 13, 2008, 07:01 PM
Check The Shooter's Bar link in my sig block. There might be someone nearby.

BAT1
August 13, 2008, 11:01 PM
Try Litman Law Offices, LTD.
American Patent Services
P.O. Box 15035 Crystal City Station
Arlington, VA Zip 22215-0035
Recommended by a Lawyer friend of mine.
Ph 1-800-472-8368

quatin
August 14, 2008, 02:35 AM
I am about 70% confident in my ability to write a patent in a way that protects me, but I am also 99.5% positive that if I send it to the US patent office, they are going to send it right back to me with a big "DECLINED" stamp on it.

Just send it back again. Aren't most patents denied a few times before being accepted?

mr.72
August 14, 2008, 09:26 AM
Aren't most patents denied a few times before being accepted?

Not exactly. But many patents do get bounced back several times but this is not what you would consider a "denial". Often times the response is to clarify, or narrow the scope of the patent, etc., at least with my patents that was the case.

brigadier
August 14, 2008, 03:49 PM
This field is so specialized and filled with so many nuances that it really doesn't matter how smart you are. You need an attorney with experience. I have dealt with unassuming geniuses with so much brain power that it's unfair. Each of them absolutely needs an experienced attorney as well.

Yep, I know and. You guys will both be getting a call from me.

the response is to clarify, or narrow the scope of the patent, etc., at least with my patents that was the case.

That's actually what I was talking about and that's the most obvious reason why it's best to have a patent attorney do the work regardless how smart you are. Another is that creative inventors tend to not be very talented in the legal field.

In any case, I am not cutting any corners in getting this done right the first time.

Fish Miner
August 14, 2008, 04:46 PM
The tough part is not the patent or the application process. It is the licensing of the invention afterwards. I have handled about 1000 seperate inventions and the success rate for actually getting to market is so low it is almost not worth it.

Most Patent Att's will get you to the same place (and from the threads above I can see there are a few here) but I have found that the best thing you can do is search the PTO (www.uspto.gov) until you are 99% sure you have over come the prior art. Barring your potential public disclosures ( a misnomer because you don't have to be in public to disclose- could be a friend at home- PTO states that if one is skilled in the art can reduce it to practice from the dislcosure the it is a public disc.) get a review from the lawyer on prior art before you agree to file an application. If the scope of claims is so narrow as to not allow you freedom to operate in the market it is not really worth the 15K for the application.

Good luck and remember- no one will give you any trouble till this thing makes money- then be prepared for the folks trying to invalidate your invention, get it re-examed, etc...

If you need help with licensing PM me- I can at least give you a draft Confidentiality Agreement you should be using for any of your discussions.....

Oh and then there are the international patents :) the fun just keeps on comming....

Grizfire
August 14, 2008, 09:56 PM
Do you have a prototype...just curious.

I would talk to your investor and see if he is willing to help you with the patent process. You might also look at SBA loan programs

brigadier
August 15, 2008, 01:06 AM
Yes. I have a tested and working prototype on hand.
My investor is not JUST an investor. She's my partner in this project. We help eachother out wherever possible. Unfortunately, she doesn't know guns at all.

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