African-Americans Involvement in the Shooting Sports...


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Magnum.35744
August 12, 2008, 10:21 PM
Hello Everyone,

I have always wondered why I havenít seen many African Americans in the shooting sports? I'll come out right away with the fact that I am Mixed (Dad's Black, Mom's White). And at the age of 15 I've only seen maybe 5 or 6 Afro-Americans in a gun store or on the range for that matter. I live in a good area and racism has never been a problem. But do you think that the common "Stereotypes" for African-Americans would tend to keep them away from the shooting sports along with any other ethnicities? Thanks in advance for trying to help me understand this topic better.

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Mr Thundermaker
August 12, 2008, 10:31 PM
Shooters aren't racist. But it that helps you believe thats why there aren't that many blacks at gun stores and IDPA matches then go right ahead. Different strokes for different folks. Mr T

Tom Servo
August 12, 2008, 10:35 PM
Actually, I've been seeing many more over the last couple of years. Same with female shooters.

I think there's a certain institutionalized taboo against guns in minority communities. Folks are taught that guns are the tools of the State and criminals, and that no "normal" person should need one.

Thankfully, lots of folks are finally starting to see through that. While I haven't seen many minorities in competition, I'm seeing a huge influx of casual shooters, and that's a big start :)

Huddog
August 12, 2008, 10:35 PM
I don't know about the "shooting sports" but I quite often see African-Americans at the shooting range. I also see Asians, Europeans, South Amercans, Native Americans and occassiononaly just Americans. Shooting is one of the least racist of all "sports" and things in life. The gun doesn't care what your ethnicity is and neither do most gun owners. We are just proud to be American and able to own and fire our guns.

NG VI
August 12, 2008, 10:40 PM
I live in an overwhelmingly white state, so for me, seeing any minority at the range is going to be an oddity, not because they are any minority, but because not all that many people are dedicated shooters and when there are so few people representing a given skin tone or background it makes it all the more unlikely that I will run into anyone but white people at the range. Though I suppose a guy in my unit I took to the range recently is black, I guess, I didn't realize it for the longest time but I suppose it makes sense. I thought he was jewish or something. And I have taken my cousin to the range once or twice, my cousins and uncle are black, but otherwise I don't believe I've ever run into anyone not white at a range in my state.

I'm sure that would not be the case if I were in almost any other state in the union.

Neo-Luddite
August 12, 2008, 10:44 PM
Like anything else, if you weren't involved in the shooting sports as a kid you're not likely to seek it out as an adult.

That's the simple explanation from my perspective. The DEEPER socio-cultural analysis of this issue would fill volumes and cause heated debate.

Once more, who is out there saying HOW do we get more black kids into the shooting sports? Maybe that's a question worth asking.

Crunker1337
August 12, 2008, 10:44 PM
Shooters aren't racist at all... IIRC, back in the 60s, when segregation was, quite simply, a fact of life, the NRA had non-segregated ranges, some in the capital.

Full disclosure: I am a minority, but not a black one.

TStorm
August 12, 2008, 10:53 PM
Good post.

Same with Servo, I've seen more and more minority (and female shooters of all races) at the range and at IDPA. Some people realize this is a great sport, not to mention a right that needs to be exercised, for everyone.

Hopefully, this sport, as others have in the past, can be a good common interest for people to participate in together.

doc2rn
August 12, 2008, 10:57 PM
Some of it will also stem from socio-economics. Lets face facts shooting is not cheap. You have hardware, training, range time, CCW permits, and the ever fun who has the cheapest ammo thread done here on a daily basis.
I have taken several friends of varying skin tone to the range with me. Only the African-American one asked why I had so much tied up in my favorite sport.
Different people have different priorities, my friend would rather have a set of 26" rims on his car than a super accurate handgun. His choice is to roll in fashion mine is to roll in unlimited reloads.

jaholder1971
August 12, 2008, 11:02 PM
Magnum,

I think the problem isn't that we won't reach out to minority gunowners and shooters, but some folks honestly don't know how to. I've worked with Junior shooting programs before and coached several black and asian kids shooting smallbore, but they found us, we didn't find them.

Perhaps you, being a young, minority shooter (or at least interested) can find the way to bridge this gap and bring more young responsible people to the shooting sports where you live?

Drgong
August 12, 2008, 11:03 PM
In my experience, the more recent immigrants, be Asian, European, african, or south American, are some of the strongest supporters of the 2nd amendment.

Mostly since they don't take freedoms that we have for granted.

oneshooter
August 12, 2008, 11:06 PM
Crunker1337, You are a REAL minority! A shooter in NEW JERSEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

mr.trooper
August 12, 2008, 11:06 PM
I saw a black man in a gun store once.

I remember thinking "wow, thats cool". But i haven't seen him since.

Maelstrom
August 12, 2008, 11:07 PM
I've seen plenty of African-Americans involved in shooting and in sports.....does that count?

Drgong
August 12, 2008, 11:11 PM
Hyatts in Charlotte has prob 20 percent black consumers from what I see, a lot of single moms buying self defense guns or a nice pump shotgun to protect there home and family, and it makes me smile to see a mom thinking ahead to protect her kids, no matter who they are.

At least with me I am a religious minority, so folks don't know I am a minority unless they really know me.

Nolo
August 12, 2008, 11:15 PM
Now, I wouldn't call myself traveled, but I also have noticed a lower frequency of blacks* at shooting ranges and in sports, too.
I think it's like what Tom Servo said. Minorities just seem to avoid it.
Of course, when you break it down, everyone's a minority, so that statement is meaningless without qualification, but I think you all know what I meant anyway.
We really need to reach out to them, which is one of the reasons I like the work Oleg has done. Sadly, it's unusual to see a black man using a firearm responsibly, but I do think it is changeable.
Plus, supposedly most blacks are liberal, and they (at least from what I've seen around here) seem to toe the party line better than most.

*I do have a good reason for using this term to describe the phenotype in question. If you want the explanation, PM me.

Soybomb
August 12, 2008, 11:22 PM
I think most people get into guns from hunting. Most people get into hunting as kids from their parents. Hunters seem to be largely white for a variety of reasons (including some bad reasons from the past). Shooters need to make an effort to reach out to people that might not otherwise be exposed to shooting sports.

Racism is still alive today and that includes at gun shops and ranges but I don't think its a significant factor in why blacks are under-represented in shooting sports.

lloydkristmas
August 12, 2008, 11:25 PM
Guy who owns the nicest gun shop in the area is black and is a great guy, very knowledgeable about all things firearms. But I agree, havent seen too many black people at the range, in the store, etc. I can think of several "why'' possibilities, but thats more for a sociology class than a gun board. Either way, great to have you on board, and as another guy said, as a shooter of any race, you are a minority in todays political environment...

ArfinGreebly
August 12, 2008, 11:30 PM
You will see more shooters of all colors as we make progress in winning back the rights of run owners.

There are politicians still trying to enforce the original theme and spirit of gun control.

Gun control has its roots in racism.

As we illuminate the hypocrisy of "human rights activists" who push gun control (e.g. ACLU), we will see more of the folks who have had a culture of firearms denial enforced on them in the past join us in the here and now.

Oleg, the founder of this site, works actively toward eliminating gun control and its causes.
http://www.a-human-right.com/s_racist.jpg . . http://www.a-human-right.com/stopKKK_s.jpg

http://www.a-human-right.com/s_agreement.jpg


We need ALL Americans armed and secure, enjoying the shooting sports, and seeing to their own defense from predators of all stripes.

And that (ALL) includes the ones with hyphenated nationality designations.

You can eliminate government-sponsored racism: replace the corrupt politicians who sponsor gun control.

lowdrag82
August 12, 2008, 11:31 PM
I have come to the conclusion that gun laws that we have in the U.S. are racist. The toughest gun laws are in Washington D.C., Chicago, L.A., New York City, etc...All of these cities have a large concentration of minorities, in many inner cities; there are large concentrations of minority women. In my opinion, the way the Constitution reads, the demographic that most NEEDS guns are women that live in the inner city; but guess what? The local and state governments feel that guns are bad and they restrict the people that most need them for protection. This is because local and state government feels they can protect and provide for its citizens better than the citizen. Guns are demonized in inner cities and the general consensus is that only criminals need guns. If the inner city citizen realized that he/she can indeed take care of themselves and are protected by the Constitution, then politicians would be out of a job. They need people to be afraid to pass ridiculous gun laws for the protection of their citizens, or in many cases "subjects". BTW I live in a rural area and shoot with friends of several ethnic backgrounds, the reason many of the African Americans don't go to the range around here is because they choose to shoot on their own land.

Larry Ashcraft
August 12, 2008, 11:32 PM
I don't know, cultural issues maybe?

Then again, Pueblo is only about 2% black, and I've seen black people at the range, and competing in IPSC here.

Also, if it is a problem, what can we do about it? THR is, after all, a considerable force.

BTW, this is a picture from last year's Colorado Get Together. The black guy is a respected THR member. Maybe he just never mentioned that he was black.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d59/lsashcraft/2007_Colorado-1.jpg

Just for the record; I'm old fashioned. I don't do hyphenated descriptions of people. I would hate to have people refer to me as "Scots-Irish-American".

Tom Servo
August 12, 2008, 11:32 PM
I've worked with Junior shooting programs before and coached several black and asian kids shooting smallbore, but they found us, we didn't find them.
Good point. All the shooting literature I see, including magazines and television, can be divided into two types:

"Tactical" stuff, in which Very White Republican looking types shoot guns dressed in nicely pressed fatigues, and

"Hunting" stuff, in which Very White Republican looking types shoot guns dressed in nicely pressed camo.

Oleg's work stresses diversity (for lack of a better word), but the mainstream still depicts the shooting culture as White Dude USA.

What's more, when we get back to politics, we see "minority leaders" championing gun control and telling everyone, from elementary school on, that good people don't own guns.

Most minorities I see coming in to the culture are doing so because they need the means of self-defense. When they finally get up the courage to go to a range or a gun shop, it's obvious that they're quite nervous.

It's not that they consciously avoid it, it's that they've been told to avoid it. That's gotta change, but change comes slowly.

What I've noticed is that, once they get into it, they get really into it. They're very safe, very conscientious, and they take on a contagious enthusiasm for the sport.

CWL
August 12, 2008, 11:33 PM
I live in Northern CA and there's a small but decent number that attend local IDPA shoots and the ranges. We're pretty colorblind when it comes to welcoming shooters at events. It's only jerks and "know it alls" that get ignored around here.

I think that it may be due to lack of advertising.

Henry Bowman
August 12, 2008, 11:37 PM
I think most people get into guns from hunting. Most people get into hunting as kids from their parents. Hunters seem to be largely white for a variety of reasons (including some bad reasons from the past). Shooters need to make an effort to reach out to people that might not otherwise be exposed to shooting sports.
What you have identified can be explained also by the urban/rural differential. Minority races, particularly blacks, largely dwell in urban areas.

There are groups who are inquiring into this issue and what can be done about it. At the Gun Rights Policy Conference last year (hosted by the Second Amendment Foundation) they had presentations on out reach to several non-traditional segments of gun ownership (not particularly shooting sports). This included women, gays, blacks, youth, etc.

Seminole
August 12, 2008, 11:44 PM
Great question.

I live in Memphis, which is a majority African-American city. I see many African-Americans at the range, but many of them appear to be relatively new shooters. I know that African-Americans make up a large percentage of the handgun carry permit classes that are taught at the range and my guess is that they, like the white students, are concerned about the abysmal crime rate in and around the city and are looking for legal and effective ways to protect themselves and their loved ones.

The fact that so many of them seem to be relatively inexperienced with firearms tends to suggest, however, that they didn't grow up in environments that would make them comfortable and familiar with firearms in a positive way--that they didn't grow up in a "shooting culture" in which guns were used for sporting purposes. I'm not sure what the reasons for this might be, but given the concentration of African-Americans in urban settings where the "shooting culture" is not as common as in rural or suburban settings (and for that matter, African-Americans living in rural contexts seem to be much more likely to be hunters, for example), the fact that many African-Americans self-identify as part of a liberal political and social movement that tends to be anti-gun, and the fact that it is easy for people who tend to live in the inner city to identify guns with the thugs that make life there so dangerous may be among the reasons.

My guess is that as more African-Americans get their handgun carry permits and spend time at the range, they will begin to participate in more sporting uses of firearms. I would also guess that they will make sure that their children are comfortable with and educated about the proper use of firearms.

Though there are bad apples in most groups of people, I've not found shooters to be significantly more racist that non-shooters.

Just my $.02

Drgong
August 12, 2008, 11:47 PM
The only racists I see around the shooting life is it seems that each gun show as a wanna-be Nazi or KKK guy.

I go to the organizers and complain, and don't go to gun shows that often because of that #$(*$#().

Otherwise i found "Gunners" to be rather reasonable folks,

Soybomb
August 12, 2008, 11:50 PM
What you have identified can be explained also by the urban/rural differential. Minority races, particularly blacks, largely dwell in urban areas.
I can't say I've looked for rural/urban demographic differences to guess how large the rift is. My perspective comes as a white guy who grew up in a rural area without coming from a hunting family. It wasn't exactly easy to get into shooting for me either. Through most of high school I had my hair cut at a barbershop/gunshop. After college when I decided to start shooting I went in to see my old barber and buy a gun. I got a rather cold reception and asked something along the lines of "what do you want a gun for." Finding places to shoot or people to teach me how to shoot wasn't much easier even as a white guy in a rural area.

I now try to take everyone I possibly can convince to go to the range to shoot. So far they've all had fun and I believe they all are gun owners now and some even have carry permits. Its good to hear that people are reaching out to the non-traditional gun owners. Its the only way to keep the rights we have let alone expand them.

Nolo
August 12, 2008, 11:51 PM
"Scots-Irish-American"
Hey! That's what I am!
As for black THR members, I was going to mention that I don't think there are many on here, but then I realized that I don't know what anyone on here really looks like!
'Cept Oleg, he has a tendency to photograph himself a lot.
Isn't the Internet great? (I actually mean that sincerely, by the way).
It's not racist to assume people on THR are the same color as you, when the mind has an information void to fill, it fills it with things it knows.
Thus, in my head, most of you have brown hair, tan white skin and are stocky.
Why?
Because that's what I look like.

Nate C.
August 12, 2008, 11:59 PM
Perhaps its socioeconomic?

Suggestion: take a friend to the range. Be diverse.

Nolo
August 13, 2008, 12:01 AM
Suggestion: take a friend to the range. Be diverse.
Sadly, I have few black friends.
One from middle school whom I never see anymore, the other from high school, whom I also never see anymore.

esq_stu
August 13, 2008, 12:01 AM
I see all races at the ranges I go to. But I see more minorities at ranges near neighborhoods where there are more minorities - near urban areas.

lloydkristmas
August 13, 2008, 12:18 AM
Sociologically speaking, some blacks, especially those raised in more harsh, urban areas tend to try and shield themselves from too much "white" influence, so to speak. In an attempt to maintain cultural integrity, many of them avoid the shooting sports as they are seen as more of a "white person" thing. It seems that getting away from that culture and that mentality is what opens up more possibilities. I have a feeling that a similar explanation could be used to explain why more minorities arent frequently involved in certain other activities as well. I've heard the question asked many times: "Why dont I ever see ________ people __________?" Could be anything from shooting to skiiing to rock climbing, etc.

springmom
August 13, 2008, 12:19 AM
Can't say that my observations would agree with the OP. When I go shooting there are ALWAYS blacks and Hispanics there. I seriously don't think I've ever been there when everyone was one ethnic group.

If you want a minority, ask about *women* on gun ranges.....

Springmom

WNTFW
August 13, 2008, 12:24 AM
I live in NOLA. A lot of African Americans here.

I have encountered "blacks" at the range. Once my uncle & I had a great time swapping guns with 2 black guys. The 2 guys never shot 1911s or didn't know about how cheap .22s were. We turned them on to those 2 things. I got to try a FN 5.7x29 or whatever is was. Really nice shooters.
Next time we encounter a white guy that was a cocky jerk. I left with his brass though!! I treat people like I want to be treated. Sometimes that is better than they treat me.

I would rather be around a nice shooter, safe shooter, humble shooter regardless of race, gender, etc.

Most of the shooters at competitions & ranges are guys that are older. That would be the first stereotype I see. The other thing is at every competition I've been to I've met first class individuals across the board.

ColinthePilot
August 13, 2008, 12:25 AM
My observations differ greatly from the OP. I've seen quite a few black shooters (and many other ethnicities as well) at every range I've been to in Maryland, Florida, Texas, and Arkansas. Sure the white shooters seem to outnumber the rest, but there is a presence of non-caucasian shooters whenever I go to the range. I never really noticed the color of the shooter, though. I generally look at their guns, behavior, gun handling(safety) and their targets. All vary across the racial board.

Prince Yamato
August 13, 2008, 03:45 AM
It probably depends on where you live. I personally think it's great that people in general get involved in shooting, but I do have a soft-spot for minorities who get into shooting. It reminds me of the American Melting Pot. I like diversity in just about everything, so it's cool when you're at the range and there's a representation of all aspects of Americana... oh and the occasional British guy shooting for the first time :).

Odd Job
August 13, 2008, 04:14 AM
Here in the UK it is quite a rarity to see blacks at the shooting range. The asians are not much better represented (we do have quite a few shooters of oriental ancestry though).
Minorities will go to a range if it is convenient though: I managed to get 4 blacks down to the range and they had a great time.
In South Africa it is much more common to see them on the range. I put that down to the general demographics of that country.

Here is my opinion: if you were born in America and that is the citizenship you retain, then you are an American. It doesn't matter a damn whether you are black or white.
I remember all the fuss when Tiger Woods became a real force on the golfing radar: there were hours spent on talk shows asking whether he was African, Thai, Chinese or Dutch etc.

He is American: no other label is needed.

Feanaro
August 13, 2008, 04:20 AM
I shoot at an indoor range inside Birmingham. I usually see black shooters at the range, which is pretty impressive considering that there are only 5 stalls, and I know three or four regulars who are black. Whether it be black professionals(I know at least one registered nurse who shoots on a regular basis) or homeboys who want to try out their "glock fohtay," they are decently represented.

When I go out to ranges farther from Birmingham, open and private ranges, the number of black shooters drops off. Dramatically. Coincidence? Many shooting ranges are located away from the area where most black populations are concentrated: urban areas. Set up more ranges in or near the inner city and you'll see a lot more black participation, I bet.

Malice
August 13, 2008, 04:39 AM
Just my experience.

Two different times (Ive been in a "gun store" 10 times, max) I have been in a gun store (two different gun stores) where I have been approached by black men.

One was in his early 30's, had his 9-10 year old son with him. Didnt look particularly "urban" or anything. Jeans and a plaid shirt tucked in.

I am/was a young 20-something white guy who looks very non-threatening. He approached ME asking me what kind of gun he should buy for him and his son to start shooting for quality time together.

He confided that all the guys behind the counter were giving him weird looks and made him feel nervous. I told him he wanted a .22 rifle, a gun safety class, eyes and ears, and that the guys behind the counter werent all that bad. He looked relieved and went and talked to someone else.

The second time was very similar; the guy had the same concerns.

So, even if there is no racism in the shooting community (which we could debate all day and night about), there is a perception of racism held by at least these two black guys.

And yes, I say black too. If I showed you a picture of a black guy, and you said he was African-American, and I then told you he was from the UK and had never been to the U.S. in his life, what would you say then? :p

maestro pistolero
August 13, 2008, 05:41 AM
A few weeks ago in Las Vegas, I was on my way out of a grocery store and passed a tall, 50ish, black gentlemen OC'ing a 1911 in a very nice looking holster. He was dressed as a civilian, but he might have been military (haircut, posture, great physical condition). We exchanged smiles/nods and continued on our way.

it occurred to me that with so much residual bigotry still in our society, and occasionally with the police, it must take considerable confidence and courage to OC as a black man in plainclothes. I admired him for it. I won't OC and I'm probably the last guy who might get hassled just because of my appearance. (I'm white as Opey, clean cut)

Aran
August 13, 2008, 07:08 AM
The only races I see discriminated against by gun owners tend to be Mexican and Middle Eastern. I've never noticed anyone taking issues with a black man, an Asian, or any other minority group.

U.S.SFC_RET
August 13, 2008, 07:19 AM
With some it is a mindset. Something to not to relate to as the shooting sports.

Arcturus
August 13, 2008, 07:32 AM
In Illinois (Chicagoland), I saw a black man in a gun store once. First time that ever happened, and personally I got a bad vibe from how he was acting. I think the gun shop owner did also. He just didn't carry himself properly.

In Wisconsin at a range, I saw a black man and his son shooting some hunting rifles. The Father was teaching his son properly and I was extremely pleased to see him doing this. The smile on his and his son's face was that priceless look. The kid was a good shot too. I wish I could see more of this, but the reality is it just does not happen around here.

JWarren
August 13, 2008, 07:43 AM
Here in the rural South, hunting is not uncommon among White persons or Black persons. Many of my students this year listed hunting as a favorite activity. And this is in a 75% to 80% Black school.

But you know what? The ONLY students that listed hunting and/or shooting sports as a favorite activity are the ones that have a father present in their lives.

Coincidence? Hardly.


-- John

Griz44
August 13, 2008, 08:04 AM
Americans who hyphenate themselves are by their own definition, racists. What's wrong with just plain "AMERICAN"? We still have a long way to go before this issue becomes a non-topic.

Deanimator
August 13, 2008, 08:36 AM
1. SERIOUS shooting is expensive. That deters a lot of people, Black AND White. There are often few opportunities for firearms training, and those opportunities are often not well known.

2. The mainstream culture actively discourages Black people from owning firearms, ESPECIALLY for self-defense. The same people who [often rightly] rail at the racism, violence and corruption of police, in the same breath declare that those same allegedly racist police should be the ONLY ones with guns.

While I've certainly seen my share of gun owners who were racists, or who at least said racist things, I've seen an equal or greater number of ANTI-gun people who were as racist as any skinhead. Want to have racial slurs hurled at you? Be Black and refuse to support repressive gun laws when a White man on the internet tells you to. Not only will you be called a variety of racial epithets that would do an Aryan Brotherhood member proud, that vicious racism will be excused because the person expressing it is a "liberal" and CAN'T be a racist. A lot of White anti-gunners live in their own little "Tarzan" movie where Black people are nothing more than savage children who have to be looked after by Whites, incapable of being trusted with dangerous implements, like guns. A lot of the anti-gunners aren't afraid of guns. They're afraid of BLACK people with guns.

3. Many Black people live in urban areas where firearms ownership is impossible or so intentionally difficult that it might as well be impossible. How would a Black person in Chicago get involved with bullseye pistol shooting when he can't even own a pistol in the first place? Along with this is the fact that in many places, there are few if any places to shoot. It's one thing to HAVE a gun. It's another to have some place where you can shoot it, safely and for a reasonable price.

Deanimator
August 13, 2008, 08:41 AM
Americans who hyphenate themselves are by their own definition, racists. What's wrong with just plain "AMERICAN"? We still have a long way to go before this issue becomes a non-topic.
An admirable sentiment... like the concepts of territorial integrity and not using violence to alter national boundaries. You might want to talk to a Georgian about that.

Ideals are wonderful. Just don't have unreasonable expectations about their implementation in the real world.

Deanimator
August 13, 2008, 08:43 AM
In Illinois (Chicagoland), I saw a black man in a gun store once. First time that ever happened, and personally I got a bad vibe from how he was acting. I think the gun shop owner did also. He just didn't carry himself properly.
I'll lay you odds he was a Chicago cop trying to entrap the gunstore owner. That's documented activity.

JohnBT
August 13, 2008, 08:53 AM
I'd like to put in a plug for one of our members
www.blackmanwithagun.com/site/recreading.asp?sec_id=140000845

"Kenneth Blanchard, in his book entitled Black Man With A Gun: A Responsible Gun Ownership Manual For African Americans, ...

... sets out to give fellow African Americans a guide to the world of firearm ownership and to answer the question of why more minority members don't own guns or advocate gun rights. He begins by relating how he himself became involved in the firearm rights community and how he had to overcome his own prejudices and nations. By relating his story, the author addresses minority misconceptions about gun rights and offers a guide that helps the reader avoid the same difficulties with which he dealt.

The book covers a broad spectrum of gun-related topics, from the ideological and historical background of gun-- ownership in America to the technical aspects of choosing a personal firearm. By giving the reader a detailed consideration of the citizens' right (and necessity) to own firearms, Blanchard offers a practical guide to the proper use and mindset for firearm ownership.

Copyright National Rifle Association of America Nov 2001"

Arcturus
August 13, 2008, 08:54 AM
I'll lay you odds he was a Chicago cop trying to entrap the gunstore owner. That's documented activity.

As much as you would believe it to be, that really does not happen much. This Gun Shop (now closed, bought out by Chicago for O'Hare expansion along with the rest of the WHOLE NEIGHBORHOOD), was actually just outside of Crook Country lines and in DuPage. There is very, very, very few actual gun shops in Crook County lines, which is basically Chicago and inherit serf cities.

fixyurgun
August 13, 2008, 08:57 AM
I haven't noticed any shortage of non-white shooters in my part of the world. Must be a country vs city thing. Jim

Oleg Volk
August 13, 2008, 09:02 AM
I try to introduce shooters of all ethnic and cultural origins to guns. Many come from countries where that wasn't legal and so they have no background -- but learn eagerly. African or Korean or Wash DCiean, same problem. No chance to learn in the past.

As for racism -- empowering a person by giving them self-defense skill is the direct opposite!

bdickens
August 13, 2008, 09:09 AM
Ya wanna know why? It's thanks to the self-appointed "black leaders." The same "black leaders" who pound it into "their people's" heads that society is racist, that the cards are stacked against them and that they'll never get ahead are the same ones that pound it into their heads that guns are evil.

peyton
August 13, 2008, 09:27 AM
The military is an equal opportunity shooting club. I learned a lot from all people and I in turn try to share that on the range or in the gun shops. There is the same problem getting minority youth into scouts, both cost money and there are a lot of ways the dollar bill can be stretched.

Walkalong
August 13, 2008, 09:55 AM
Around here there are a lot more black hunters than shooters. A fairly large percentage hunt, but not all that many shoot just for fun. I think it is just that ammo was expensive, they were shooting to eat, and they were taught not to waste shots, and that sticks with them.

I am not counting the gang bangers we have here. That is another problem all together. A culture that Black leaders will have to solve. Not most of the present ones who I believe are part of the problem. We need new leaders who taught like MLK did, and don't preach dependence and hate, etc.

Anyway. I don't see anyone on THR as black white, yellow green purple, etc. I see the minds of people here. I like them or I don't but I don't know or care what color their skin is.

My father was an Italion who's parents emigrated to this country. My mom is Heinz 57 "American" (German, Irish, etc, etc,). I was dropped off in Montgomery Alabama at 10 years old in the 60's after living on Air Bases all my life right before my Father retired from the Air Force. Talk about culture shock. I went to an all black (except for one,me) school, and then a mostly white school through high school.

I don't give a rats A** if you are black, white, or purple with pink polka dots. It is who you are that matters to me. I don't like trash of any color and do not want to be around them.

I do not know what 99% of folks here think of me, but I have made "internet friends" here and enjoy my time on THR.

We need to figure out ways to attract all kinds of people to the shooting sports, somehow. I don't know the answer.

Hope I did not get to far off topic. :)

Drgong
August 13, 2008, 10:05 AM
Yep, I know quite few rural blacks that are amazing shots, but they are the type who bought a box of 50 rounds a few years ago, and still have 20, but they took game 30 times...They don't like wasting ammo...

cambeul41
August 13, 2008, 10:40 AM
I am a community college teacher in Detroit. Since CCW has been shall issue in Michigan, I have heard much less talk by my students about fear of criminals.

Occasionally I discuss self-defense with my classes and provide CCW information to those who express interest. My general impression is that the CCW / CPL possession rate here is considerably higher than it is among the general American population Ė but Detroiters do not, for the most part, have those guns for sport.

Deanimator
August 13, 2008, 10:47 AM
As much as you would believe it to be, that really does not happen much. This Gun Shop (now closed, bought out by Chicago for O'Hare expansion along with the rest of the WHOLE NEIGHBORHOOD), was actually just outside of Crook Country lines and in DuPage. There is very, very, very few actual gun shops in Crook County lines, which is basically Chicago and inherit serf cities.
1. Daley has no authority outside of CHICAGO, nevermind Cook County. That doesn't mean anything to him. And I notice you DIDN'T say it DIDN'T happen, but that it didn't happen MUCH.

2. The law is for fools who work for a living, NOT for the wiseguys and their tools, like Daley.

guitarhero323
August 13, 2008, 10:49 AM
well in the dayton area close to were i live i see plenty of black people at the gun show in hara arena

joshk-k
August 13, 2008, 11:18 AM
If one in 100 Americans is incarcerated, but 1 in 9 black Americans are incarcerated, you have to take that into account as well. Because of systemic racism in the so-called "criminal justice" system, and things like Rockefeller drug laws, the average black man will spend a third of his life in jail. We have laws that prohibit felons from owning or even handling guns, and our society sends away an awful lot of black (men), who then reemerge with a felony record and no way to participate in any shooting sport.

I'm not trying to hi-jack the thread, it just seemed like one obvious answer that hadn't been touched yet.

JOsh

DEDON45
August 13, 2008, 11:24 AM
I would have to hazard a guess that it has a lot to do with social conditioning (guns are bad, only thugs have guns, etc.)... I think you'll find the shooting pastime, in general (there's always bad apples in any group) is one of the more open communities out there. When you have many national black leaders / groups, etc. oriented towards making everyone afraid of firearms, well, it's had an effect. I believe the 2nd Amendment applies to all citizens, not just a select few.

That said, one of my favorite folks to shoot / hunt with when I was a teenager (I've moved away since then) was one of our JROTC instructors... and yes, he was black. He spent a lot of time with us "country white boys" fishing and hunting, 'cause that's what he liked to do, and we were glad to have him -- he taught us quite a bit, in fact.

Arcturus
August 13, 2008, 02:20 PM
1. Daley has no authority outside of CHICAGO, nevermind Cook County. That doesn't mean anything to him. And I notice you DIDN'T say it DIDN'T happen, but that it didn't happen MUCH.


Daley runs the show in northeast Illinois. He does have power outside of Chicago and outside of Crook County. Go drive down Irving Park Ave south of O'Hare and look at a whole neighborhood in another city and county, that he BOUGHT OUT, including the gun shop. It is a damn ghost town there.

"Outside of my city, outside of the county I'm in, so what? Do you know who I am? I'm King Daley"

esmith
August 13, 2008, 02:27 PM
I saw a black man in a gun store once.

I remember thinking "wow, thats cool". But i haven't seen him since.

Ha, that was funny.


Ive seen a few black people at the range i go to, i have also seen asians too. The one black guy was shooting a 500 S&W magnum and ran out of ammo.

kamagong
August 13, 2008, 02:51 PM
I've seen a few African-Americans at the range. Not that many mind you, but they're by no means rare.

The minorities I see most often at gunshops and the range are Latinos and Asians, especially Filipinos. It seems that Filipinos really like their guns. Out of the five shops that are closest to me, two are owned by Filipinos.

The only racial group I hardly ever see is Middle-Easterners. I've seen a grand total of one at my local range, and I'm a regular. He was a middle-aged Persian man who struck up a conversation with me, asking for some shooting tips. He was all over the paper and wanted to know what he was doing wrong. He told me that it was his first firearm, and that it took him a while to summon up the courage to go buy a gun. It seems that he was afraid of possible discriminatory treatment due to his Middle Eastern origins.

NG VI
August 13, 2008, 02:56 PM
Now that I've slept on it I suppose I am a minority as well.


That makes three I have been responsible for rangeing.

I guess my fiance is also a minority, so let's call it four.

tntwatt
August 13, 2008, 02:56 PM
http://www.georgiacarry.org/cms/georgias-carry-laws-explained/

This site has a well written article on Georgia and it's history of "disarming the negros" . Good information.

I'll also go one further and say that most of the black people I know in Georgia are Democrats. We all know the majority of Democrat politicians are antigun fanatics. What better way to keep the black population down than make sure they are unarmed and dependent on the government?

Rachen
August 13, 2008, 03:07 PM
Where I work at my summer job, all of my male African American co-workers are overwhelmingly pro-gun. There are only two females, but they are anti, not because of political reasons, but because they never fired or even handled a gun before.

But after weeks of talking to them, I am starting to convert them over. Once they are comfortable with the facts, I will take them to the range and start them off with my 1911A1. If they like that, then I will let them try my Mauser K-98 and Enfield P-53.

A majority who embraces the equal rights given by the 2nd Amendment is a great way to make sure that racism bites the dust, once and for all. This is the Twenty-First Century already. Hate and intolerance have no place in society. On August 8th, 2008, when gymnast Li Ning ran along the uppermost edge of the Bird's Nest carrying the Olympic torch, the flame not only symbolized the sport, but welcoming a great new future for all people.

john917v
August 13, 2008, 03:13 PM
I haven't seen too many shooters from minorities. I've also heard friends say that they wouldn't go hunting because it's too 'redneckish'. That friend was from a minority race also. But, it is great to see people of all races, and both sexes come out to enjoy our great sport, and to exercise their liberties to do so.

El Tejon
August 13, 2008, 03:18 PM
Many Black people live in urban areas where firearms ownership is impossible or so intentionally difficult that it might as well be impossible. How would a Black person in Chicago get involved with bullseye pistol shooting when he can't even own a pistol in the first place?

Depends on what urban area we are discussing. At the range in Indianapolis, the 13th largest city, last Sunday many African-Americans were present. I see African-Americans at gun shoppes and shows in Indianapolis regularly. However, in all my gun skul hours I have seen a grand total of one African-American in a class, a Pat Rogers carbine class. He was an auto engineer from Michigan.

One of my ideas, O.K., O.K., I admit that I have several, is to create a "Shoot for America" program with the NRA. We would get African-American males of say retirement age, younger if we can, and go to Boys Clubs and churches in Chicago and present a sports program to instill discipline. Transport African-American kids to Indiana to go shooting all day.

If you look at the percentage of African-American boys being raised without the presence of a father, you will cry and then understand why there may be a dearth of African-American shooters--each one, teach one--there is often no one to teach them. African-American boys often grow up without the joy of being taught to shoot that so many of us experienced. Guns represent only thuggery and violence and no one is there to show them how to shoot and more importantly how to be disciplined.

lysander
August 13, 2008, 03:21 PM
The only racists I see around the shooting life is it seems that each gun show as a wanna-be Nazi or KKK guy.

In many areas of the country this is far more prevalent than many might be comfortable admitting. The guys mentioned above are real poison apples in my book...they spoil whole orchards, let alone just a barrel.

That being said the demographic makeup of your local range and gun store is likely a direct function of the demographics of where you live. If you are shooting at an indoor gun-range in a lily white suburb, you probably won't see many variables in terms of ethnicity.

Where I live, at some of the larger public ranges, during any given visit I can see all variations shooting.

I tend to agree with the idea that the "mainstream" in the shooting sports tends to project a certain image and/or political affiliation. Tom Servo did a fine job highlighting this earlier in the thread.

Soybomb
August 13, 2008, 03:29 PM
It seems that Filipinos really like their guns
The philippines is one of the few other countries in the world that has anything resembling almost liveable gun control laws. Its the home of armscor and has its share of practical shooting games.

Drgong
August 13, 2008, 03:31 PM
In many areas of the country this is far more prevalent than many might be comfortable admitting. The guys mentioned above are real poison apples in my book...they spoil whole orchards, let alone just a barrel.

Indeed, If a guy is selling a real Nazi era luger and he throwing in a real Nazi flag, it does not bother me any more then someone selling a Nippon Empire flag. There is a place for historical stuff, just like say, stalin era russian stuff. However the KKK and the new production Nazi sellers make me sick.

Zundfolge
August 13, 2008, 03:36 PM
I suspect this is another one of those Urban vs Rural issues.

Shooting is a Rural sport ... shooting in an Urban environment is expensive and difficult (impossible in some urban areas).


Also, Blacks overwhelmingly support the Democrat party which is overwhelmingly anti gun, so it would make sense to me that for whatever cultural/political reasons Blacks are overwhelmingly anti gun.

eflatminor
August 13, 2008, 03:38 PM
To your question...because Blacks in America tend to be Liberal Democrates (Liberal Fascists, same thing) and as such, they are told by their "leaders" in the church, the government and other private organizations (such as the NAACP) that it is in there best interest to be disarmed. That's really too bad because given their typical economic situation (lower income, lower education on average and higher crime neighborhoods), they are the ones more prone have violence visited upon them. Why American Blacks don't stand up for their right to protect themselves is beyond me. Then again, I don't really give a crap if someone chooses to be a victim...just don't try to force me into the same position.

moga
August 13, 2008, 03:49 PM
In metro Atlanta, all kinds of people shoot at my range. It's hardly ever "slow" and plenty of men and women, white and non-white, shoot there. The staff is about 50/50 black and white. Lots of women LE shoot there too. Male LE seem to shop there more than they shoot.

At my favorite gun shop (Adventure Outdoors, Smyrna) I can't remember a time there when there wasn't at least one AA there shopping beside me. I notice a lot of first time couples buying guns lately at AO, white and black. From what I've seen, I'd say the split is 2/1 handguns v. shotguns when the couples make purchases.

Claude Clay
August 13, 2008, 03:52 PM
Though I suppose a guy in my unit I took to the range recently is black, I guess, I didn't realize it for the longest time but I suppose it makes sense. I thought he was jewish or something.
'I suppose' one might have to 'guess' concerning someone else's blackness; but i am confused about his 'jewish or something'. catholic or........something. protestant or........something. Something as in exactly what? racism can be subtle or perhaps this is a Maine colloquialism and i am misunderstanding it.

Rachen
August 13, 2008, 03:55 PM
Indeed, If a guy is selling a real Nazi era luger and he throwing in a real Nazi flag, it does not bother me any more then someone selling a Nippon Empire flag. There is a place for historical stuff, just like say, stalin era russian stuff. However the KKK and the new production Nazi sellers make me sick.

True, very true. I have heard many white supremacists and wannabes infesting gun shows and claim to be selling "historical artifacts". LOL, but hey, there is a very big difference between orginal Mauser rifles, helmets, bayonets, ammo cans, and posters that say "white power", KKK, or spew hatred against blacks or Jews. Yeah, historical artifacts LMFAO!

ochmude
August 13, 2008, 03:56 PM
I can honestly say I've never seen a black person at the range I frequent. I also have never seen a black person in any of the gun shops I frequent, at least not at the same time I was there. And I have been aware of that fact, being black myself (well, mixed, just like the OP actually IIRC). I received most of my exposure to firearms from the Marines, and definitely not my family. I know that everyone on my dad's side (black, from New Orleans 9th ward) was raised to say away from "guns and drugs" and make something of themselves, so they could get out of the 9th ward. I see that as being a major factor why there aren't more minorities in the shooting sports. My relatives aren't anti's deep down inside. It's just that in many black communities "guns" is a synonym for "gangs", "crime", etc. It actually really reminds me of the fact that, in the Marines, "gun" is a big no-no. It's a service rifle, crew-served weapon, pistol, etc. but definitely not a "gun". "We're not back on the block, we don't shoot guns here," one of my marksmanship coaches would always say when I was at Parris Island. There's just something about the word "gun" that has been so vilified by the anti's that the word has almost separated itself from the object.

SouthronBoy
August 13, 2008, 07:11 PM
Damn.

I look like Nolo.

Oleg Volk
August 13, 2008, 07:14 PM
You are older than Nolo, hence he looks like you.

Bartkowski
August 13, 2008, 09:37 PM
I have seen a few black people at the range. One I believe was father and son, didn't look like they had much experience shooting and looked out of place, but hey they were shooters.

The other man had a BFR in 45-70. The blast was tremendous. Right as I went over to see what it was he shot his last rounds.

Tom Servo
August 13, 2008, 10:29 PM
However the KKK and the new production Nazi sellers make me sick.
Yeah, the last gun show I went to (late 1990s) had a table with Nazi flags. Made in China.

The problem with racism in the shooting community isn't the overt kind; it's the subtle kind. It comes from the guy who says he's "not comfortable" shooting next to those other guys.

When pressed for a reason, he can't come up with one. He doesn't like them because they're black/asian/latino, and he's too craven to say so. This is the kind of guy who, when he's with his friends, says things like, "I'm not racist, but..."

As I mentioned, it's hard for minorities to break with institutionalized taboos and get into the sport. It's worse when they show up for meets or shoots and get shunned for being different. If I felt everyone staring at me the whole time, I'd feel weird about it, too.

I've noticed it among people from Eastern Europe and Western Asia. Everyone thinks if you've got dark skin, dark hair and "an accent," you must be a Muslim (and therefore, bent on killing all infidels). I've heard from Georgians, Persians, Italians, Indians and Greeks about this, and it makes them not want to shoot.

That's a shame, because folks from repressive societies often take to shooting with great enthusiasm if they have a little guidance and encouragement.

esmith
August 13, 2008, 11:15 PM
When pressed for a reason, he can't come up with one. He doesn't like them because they're black/asian/latino, and he's too craven to say so. This is the kind of guy who, when he's with his friends, says things like, "I'm not racist, but..."


Not so sure i agree with this. A lot of people will say the, "Im not racist" line as an intro to people around them because they are afraid of being called that. And that is only a result from being raised in a generation that is incredibly quick to call someone a bigot. Or in other words, our society today has so much politcal correctness pounded into it, that as soon as anyone proclaims their distaste of someone of a different race, someone else doesn't give a second thought to give that person the title of a, "racist."

I could easily say, "Im not racist, but i just don't like that group of said asians/blacks/latinos. They're really loud and they're interrupting my focus on shooting."

Now does that make me racist?

The_Sheriff
August 14, 2008, 12:53 AM
I haven't seen many in my area, but my dad has a friend that is black and he carries for SD. I have seen a few in Phoenix but unfortunately the range is in a bad area and most of the shooters were dressed like gangsters (there was a few whites and mexicans dressed like that there also) kinda made me wander what they were target practicing for or if they just enjoy having their pants ride halfway down their a** at all times??????

NG VI
August 14, 2008, 01:21 AM
'I suppose' one might have to 'guess' concerning someone else's blackness; but i am confused about his 'jewish or something'. catholic or........something. protestant or........something. Something as in exactly what? racism can be subtle or perhaps this is a Maine colloquialism and i am misunderstanding it.

Well I don't know if this will come out the way I mean it to, but I was mostly just going by his name. He is very pale, like I get when I'm away from the sun too long, and it wasn't something I ever put any thought into until he surprised me when telling a story about using a clearing barrel in Kuwait for the M-9 he was carrying. Since he has smallish hands he was telling me how he had to contort his grip of the pistol to release the mag and then lock the slide back and being from wisconsin, he was the only black guy in his unit so they were needling him a bit because he looked like he was playing around holding it sideways. He wasn't, it was just a coincidence. Also our NCOIC chronically mispronounces his name which already sounds german or jewish to a similiar but even more german/jewish name.

I don't know, he has been pretty much the only other non-NCO in our unit for the longest time, we have both been in the Maine guard for about the same amount of time, I just never thought about it.

How I worded it earlier was probably mostly because of carelessness and relative apathy as far as ethnic distinctions go, to me, having a spanish/argentinian father I never really knew and growing up in Maine an overwhelmingly white state ethnic distinctions strike me as more of a curiousity than anything else.

RP88
August 14, 2008, 01:37 AM
I would say that one reason why guns arent big in the black community is because of the make-up of said community in terms of statistics in the areas regarding crime, drugs, and poverty. Not to say that black people don't own guns, but that they do not shoot them often, or express enthusiasm in them as a hobby. That could be maybe related to the 'lower class' statistic/perception/stereotype.

But, I do see all sorts of people go into my local shop, but I live in a very diverse area. I'll see people of all ages and types, from college kids like me, to the competitors, to the casual family guys who just make sure they can still shoot a bad guy, to the gangstas who need to be punched in the neck, to the normal person, of all color and gender and background.

CRITGIT
August 14, 2008, 01:41 AM
I don't know about the "shooting sports" but I quite often see African-Americans at the shooting range. I also see Asians, Europeans, South Amercans, Native Americans and occassiononaly just Americans .

I think that's the problem. What are "just Americans" as opposed to the others listed.

The gun doesn't care what your ethnicity is and neither do most gun owners

No the gun doesn't care but lets not kid one another here or anywhere else. All walks have their intolerants, ignorants and racists. Perhaps no more with the gun crowd than most other groups however I've left more than one shooting gathering due to the political and racist bashing. I think younger shooters are generally more tolerant. There's a friend who used to frequent here and other boards who is Afro American and a practicing atty. He continues to shoot but it can be a struggle at times.

CRITGIT

Beagle-zebub
August 14, 2008, 02:16 AM
Well, I think levels of involvement vary from place to place. In Delaware, the people I see in gunstores and the range the most often are white guys that drive pickups, but the second most common are middle- to upper-middle-class African Americans.

As for shooting sports, which for the sake of discussion I'll use in the sense of games (such as trap, skeet, blah blah), it's almost exclusively pickup-truck white people, which I think has to do with what it takes to get into games vs. into paper-punching: a person can figure out paper-punching for themselves, and is mure likely lured in by practicality that comes along with the fun of it. It seems like that for black shooters, the practical merits of shooting sports are a bigger (though not necessarily biggest) attraction of shooting activities; for hardcore white shooters, despite all our talk about practical this-and-that, it seems that the shooting itself is what is central, with the practical stuff being a justification rather than a motivation. Furthermore, with games like skeet and trap, a person arguably needs both a certain knack for that kind of shooting and lessons right from the start; they are way more likely to get the latter if they already have a family-member or acquiantance who plays that game--I've seen people try to jump into a game of trap or skeet just for the sake of general shotgun proficiency, and it's not pretty. On this subject, a person doesn't need to have the hyper-competence that something like skeet or silhouette shooting fosters, to defend themselves perfectly effectively or even to hunt with great success--in these sorts of games, being really good is just an end unto itself. Anyway, as time goes by, and black and white subcultures intermingle more and more, the shooting culture of country white folks (the only people still doing shooting sports, since they died out among the upper-class along with steeplechase and foxhunts) cross-pollinates into black culture.

Another factor at work might be the relatively uncompetitive nature of shooting sports. Watching the people in my dorm play videogames together, I noticed that black players gravitated to the very top of the skill ranks; with time, it became clear that this was because their enjoyment came out of the competitive aspect of the game, whereas the other players appeared to play merely for mindless relaxation, deeper escape into the games' plots, the social interactions that happened around the game consoles, or the affirmation of their own nerdiness. (Essentially all involved, just like essentially all at the school, were huge nerds regardless of background.)

While I think this same competitive mode of consumption (with the same cultural lineage, to boot) is also present to an unusually high degree in the white culture from which hardcore shooters come from, I think another central part shooting culture is a certain recognition of and revelry in the absurdity of what is being done. Is this now how we appreciate bull-riding? My former nextdoor neighbor's friend owns two MiG-21s and two MiG-23s, which he picked up for $100,000 each; the awesome over-the-topness of simply owning such jets, let alone breaking the sound barrier in them, comes from an enjoyment that has the consumer say, "I can't freakin' believe I'm doing this," and then laughing (cackling?) at the hilarity of the action's fundamental absurdity. In the same way we get so much amusement out of fooling around with fireworks (if not worse), we get a kick out of watching Bob Munden shoot two balloons with a speed that would be parody if it weren't real, or owning a Lahti 20mm, or shooting skeet so much that we endeavor to score perfect rounds wrong-handed. (I've known at least one person who has successfully done that latter.) When a person holds the record for the most RBIs, or field scoring, or passing yards, it's just plain impressive; when a person has the distinction of jumping the Snake River on a dirt-bike, it's still impressive, but in a different way.

CRITGIT
August 14, 2008, 02:32 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/08/13/census.minorities/index.html?eref=rss_topstories (http://http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/08/13/census.minorities/index.html?eref=rss_topstories)
Probably ought to cultivate and recruit the so called minorities as they'll soon be the majority very soon.

CRITGIT

Tom Servo
August 14, 2008, 02:44 AM
Essentially all involved, just like essentially all at the school, were huge nerds regardless of background.
Huh? Nerd? ME?

...ah...who am I kidding? I enjoyed learning Latin :)

It's worth mentioning that the people who really do frighten me at the range are the 22-year-old suburban white "gangster" wannabes. They seem to be the most likely to violate the basic safety rules and imitate whatever movie/videogame is big right now.

1911 guy
August 14, 2008, 09:44 AM
I go to a pretty good outdoor range and it's got a varied membership. I've seen black, white, asian, men, women, sometimes kids with a parent or grandparent. I do notice that the "minority" shooters, if that word really applies any more, tend to be younger and more focused on target shooting and self defense while the "old white guys" tend to be more focused on hunting and other sport shooting. I also notice that anyone who shows up and isn't a safety hazard is either left to their own devices or helped copiously if they say they need it. I'm sure it's been said, but the shooting community is probably the most colorblind group of people around. Of course we have a large rural population, so it's more accepted in general to be a shooter than it might be if this were downtown New York.

Ditto Tom Servo's last paragraph. Piercings and tattoos don't bother me. Piercing, tattoos and waving a gun around bother me. Then again, a little old lady waving a gun around would bother me.

TexasRifleman
August 14, 2008, 10:07 AM
You should spend some time reading Ken Blanchard's website.

He has a lot of ideas on why the Black community has not embraced guns.

Really good stuff.

http://www.blackmanwithagun.com/

Specifically this article here sheds some light on things.

http://www.blackmanwithagun.com/site/cpage.asp?cpage_id=140019512&sec_id=140000845

He's right. Gun control has always been about racism. Pro gun people are not racists, the anti's clearly have been historically.

XDKingslayer
August 14, 2008, 10:29 AM
African-American?

Last time I checked, most of them were born here. That would make them American.

You don't see me running around claiming I'm Welsh-German-American do ya?

Deanimator
August 14, 2008, 11:10 AM
You don't see me running around claiming I'm Welsh-German-American do ya?
I don't see you at all.

That having been said, I don't like the term "African-American" for two reasons, one of them precisely the opposite of the one you're trying to express.

1. It was a direct result of a slow news-week for Jesse Jackson one year, and nothing more. "Black" works just fine for me.

2. "African-American" is vague to the point of meaninglessness. If they were to immigrate to the United States, Nelson Mandela, Olusegun Obasanjo and F. W. de Klerk would all be "African-Americans". The ONLY White people I see calling themselves "European-Americans" are mentally handicapped neo-Nazis. I don't generally consider them fodder for emulation.

Deanimator
August 14, 2008, 11:13 AM
You should spend some time reading Ken Blanchard's website.

A friend of mine gave me a copy of his book for Christmas one year. I really enjoyed it.

XDKingslayer
August 14, 2008, 12:07 PM
That having been said, I don't like the term "African-American" for two reasons, one of them precisely the opposite of the one you're trying to express.

I know quite a few black people classified as "African-Americans" that aren't from Africa.

I also know quite a few white people from South Africa and they aren't classified as "African-American".

We really need to stop that circle of stupidity.

Beagle-zebub
August 14, 2008, 12:23 PM
African-American?

Last time I checked, most of them were born here. That would make them American.

Just wanted to thank you for bogging this thread down with a discussion of proper nomenclature. :rolleyes:

Seriously, guys, when you make hay out of the PC-ness of the nomenclature issue, you're just dragging the discussion along even further. It's a complaint that is as nit-picky as the PC stuff itself, so people get the impression that your motives aren't practical, but rather ideological. (I'm not saying that's the right impression, but it's the logical one.)

In reality, the only people who are going to insist on using "African-American" instead of "black" are self-righteous neo-hippies; these people can't be persuaded by rational argument (just try debating gun-control with them), and no one takes them seriously anyway.

realmswalker
August 14, 2008, 12:41 PM
I took 4 black guys from my office shooting about two months ago. They thoroughly enjoyed it. One of the gentlemen has been out with me a few times and really enjoys rifles.

He came to me asking about rifles and was very interested in buying one. He found a savage 10fp with the heavy barrel in .308 hardly used for 450. He called me and asked if he should buy it. I said "If you don't, I am, tomorrow"
We just put a bushnell 3200 elite 5-15x40 and are going to take it out soon.

Deanimator
August 14, 2008, 12:58 PM
He came to me asking about rifles and was very interested in buying one. He found a savage 10fp with the heavy barrel in .308 hardly used for 450. He called me and asked if he should buy it. I said "If you don't, I am, tomorrow"
We just put a bushnell 3200 elite 5-15x40 and are going to take it out soon.

I've got a 10FP in .308 and a 112BVSS in .30-06 (very hard to find). Both of them are now in the laminated varmint type stocks that the 112 came in, which Savage will sell you separately. They're not terribly expensive and are MUCH nicer than the crappy black plastic stock that most 10FPs and 110FPs come in.

I've got Bausch & Lomb Elite 6-24s on both of my guns, and have found them to be superbly accurate at 600 yards with my target handloads.

realmswalker
August 14, 2008, 01:01 PM
Deanimator, where can I get that stock you are talking about for a good price?

Deanimator
August 14, 2008, 01:08 PM
Deanimator, where can I get that stock you are talking about for a good price?
I bought mine direct from Savage. I just called and told them I wanted to order a 10BVSS stock for my 10FP. I think it was somewhere between $100-$150 about five years ago. Compare that to other commercial stocks and it's a real bargain, even if they're up to $200 now.

I also used to have a Choate Ultimate Sniper stock for it, which I gave away to a friend. It was an excellent prone stock from a bipod or rest, but I wanted a stock that I could use prone with a sling and glove, and the rail on the Choate was just too far away at the end of the forend for that. If you're ONLY going to shoot prone, that may be a good option for you. I switched to the Savage varmint stock because it had more than enough meat in the forend in which to mount a sling rail. If I were still shooting rifle, I'd probably add an adjustible butt plate and cheekpiece.

XDKingslayer
August 14, 2008, 01:30 PM
In reality, the only people who are going to insist on using "African-American" instead of "black" are self-righteous neo-hippies; these people can't be persuaded by rational argument (just try debating gun-control with them), and no one takes them seriously anyway.

So then let's let anti-gun people run aroud unchecked and not take them seriously too.

Shines a different light now doesn't it...

Vaarok
August 14, 2008, 03:15 PM
I live in Upstate NY, so it's about as culturally diverse as a bowl of rice-grains, but I currently have a tally of three asians and a buncha girls who I've converted either by arranging proxy instruction or simply talking them into it through conversations.

I will recount one very awkward but funny thing I saw at the local gunshop once. This TALL, and I mean TALL college-age black kid comes in and buys a box of 7.62x39 and a couple small boxes of .22s, and as he comes up to the counter he says he just got a SKS, and I just wordlessly chicken-wing my trigger-hand up against my shoulder, and he grinned sheepishly.

V1K1NG0
August 14, 2008, 03:58 PM
I am American first and foremost (yet for some reason people get the impression that I am a foreigner, go figure). I think it all has to do with location (but not always). I grew up in a big city in South Texas and firearms never crossed my mind. When I moved to rural OK was when I was first exposed to firearms. Majority of my firends went hunting every year and I really felt left out as no one in my family ever had thought of firearms. The gun culture there made me feel isolated as I did not even know who I could ask. I finally built up enough courage to ask the Chief of Police (member of my church) to teach me. Not only did he teach me but he gave me my first firearm.

I honestly do not like it when people say I am a minority because I feel I am not. I am an American (not a minority, not a majority) just an American.

If you want to learn about the shooting sports or hunting, you need to take the initiative and just ASK. You might get ignored or blown off by some but dont give up.

If you want to teach others about the shooting sports or hunting, you need to search out your students (whoever they may be).

I am a firm believer that talking about change does not do anything and talking about others not changing does not do anything (well it may make you feel better). If you want change you need to start with yourself and then your family and then your friends etc.

Write it down and do it.
example:
I will teach X number of people about the benefits of firearms.
I will take X amount of people to the range to shoot for the first time or second for that matter.

I will ask someone today to teach me about firearms or hunting etc. If they say no I will ask someone else.

I will look up the local ranges near me and call them and make an appointment to learn about firearms.

I will call the local club and ask them to teach me.

clarence222
August 14, 2008, 04:07 PM
Some of the most active shooters I know are black. I refuse to refer to them as Africn American, I done refer to myself as European American, so why should they. We are either Americans or we aren't.

coyotehitman
August 14, 2008, 04:13 PM
But do you think that the common "Stereotypes" for African-Americans would tend to keep them away from the shooting sports along with any other ethnicities?

What do you mean by this?

JohnBT
August 14, 2008, 04:51 PM
"Americans who hyphenate themselves are by their own definition, racists. What's wrong with just plain "AMERICAN"?"

Says the guy with this for his location:

"REPUBLIC OF TEXAS, DISTRICT OF ARLINGTON"

That's worse than hyphenation.

What's wrong with just plain Texas?

John

JohnBT
August 14, 2008, 05:01 PM
Back to the question,
"Quote: But do you think that the common "Stereotypes" for African-Americans would tend to keep them away from the shooting sports along with any other ethnicities?

What do you mean by this? "

_________________________

You really need to read Kenn Blanchard's Black Man With A Gun. The link has been posted earlier. Here's a sample, a small sample.

"In the beginning I had aspirations of becoming just a firearms instructor for the hundreds of residents in the Washington, DC metropolitan area but ran into reality along the way. Despite my extensive training by some of the best pistoleros in the world I was a pariah. I didn’t know how strong the opposition was to the truth, training and responsibility. I didn’t know about the effects gun control had stained the brains of my people and the American culture. I changed direction and broadened my focus."

"Our goal was to start chapters in all the states where there were a large number of African American firearms enthusiast and provide them a club that fostered lawful and responsible gun ownership. This doesn’t seem like a big deal unless you realize that black people have been conditioned not to trust or openly admit gun ownership. It has been illegal for a person of color to own a gun for so long that it will take some time before we as a people accept the truth. So that is my job. We are to grow, educate, motivate and bring my people together so that we can come out of the closet and stop being used as pawns in the politics of the . The idea was sound. It just doesn’t pay to be right.

Until the day when the phrase Black Man with a Gun is no big deal, I’ll be here. In fact, if you are a law abiding, gun owning, voting citizen of the regardless of race, you are probably a black man with a gun too."

jakemccoy
August 14, 2008, 05:06 PM
Hello Everyone,

I have always wondered why I haven’t seen many African Americans in the shooting sports? I'll come out right away with the fact that I am Mixed (Dad's Black, Mom's White). And at the age of 15 I've only seen maybe 5 or 6 Afro-Americans in a gun store or on the range for that matter. I live in a good area and racism has never been a problem. But do you think that the common "Stereotypes" for African-Americans would tend to keep them away from the shooting sports along with any other ethnicities? Thanks in advance for trying to help me understand this topic better.

You may have a point. However, are you drawing your conclusion from your experience at your local ranges and locals stores? I know plenty of law-abiding black people involved with shooting sports. Anyway, I have been to ranges where there are only white people around. I've also been to ranges where almost half the folks who come in are black, and they look like square law-abiding citizens. It's a big country.

SoCalShooter
August 14, 2008, 05:51 PM
Most shooters are not racists like the shooting community is made out to be, I know a couple of American shooters who are black and they are in highpower rifle and just casual shooting.

yokel
August 14, 2008, 06:54 PM
It's my fervent hope that certain ethnic group's unqualified support of the Second Amendment takes off in a big way and real soon...

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/08/13/Whites_to_be_US_minority_by_2042/UPI-53591218683948/

Whites to be U.S. minority by 2042

WASHINGTON, Aug. 13 (UPI) -- Whites will become a minority in the United States as early as 2042, a Census Bureau report to be released Thursday projects.

Census Bureau demographer Grayson Vincent told the Detroit Free Press that's about a decade earlier than previously forecast as the point at which all Americans will be minorities.

The report will show that by 2050, non-Hispanic whites, who now represent two-thirds of the U.S. population, will number 203 million out of the nation's estimated 439 million people, the newspaper said.

In addition, the number of Hispanics will likely triple by 2050 to 133 million, while the black population is projected to reach 66 million and the Asian segment of the population will be about 41 million, the report said. The American Indian and Alaska Natives population will reach about 9 million.
We're clearly doomed and defeated if it does not.

Liberty is a blessing that must be secured and if one generation fails to properly secure liberty, other generations will neither reap liberty's blessings, nor have the opportunity to secure it for themselves or their posterity.

rhubarb
August 14, 2008, 09:22 PM
I live in an area where African-Americans make up maybe a percent of the population. I don't know or work around any myself.

This area is about 85% Hispanic. Mexican-Merican. However, some 75% of local gun stores are staffed wholly or partly by whites. The local shooting sports are dominated by white men. It's rare to see a Hispanic in a local match, be it handgun or long gun.

Cultural thing, I think. They've accepted for generations that guns are for the police and criminals. That applies to both sides of the border. Of course most arms are illegal in Mexico unless you have the money to pay off an official. Much of our population immigrated from Mexico. Even on this side for those who have lived here for centuries, Mexicans have been discouraged from owning arms. It's really only in the last generation or two that those with Hispanic surnames have started to be widely elected to public office and reach the upper echelons of business here. Whatever racism existed here in the past, though, is absent among the local white shooters I know. We would love to see more dark complected Americans competing.

The concept of legally carrying a gun for self-defense seems foreign here despite the violent crime due to the drug trade. A couple of years ago, I looked at the Texas Dept. of Public Safety's website listing of CHLs by county and our county had something like a fourth of the amount of CHLs per capita compared to the state in general. There's plenty of Mexican hunters of deer and dove, but in general the gun culture here is overwhelmingly white. There's a white dude from my county shooting skeet in the Olympics.

It's not an economic thing. When you see how many guys have jacked up 4x4 crew cab diesels for daily drivers and Harleys for weekend fun, you know it ain't about the money. It's cultural. I, being American, would even say it's un-American to not own and shoot guns.

I'm trying to teach as many as I can. I've taken several Mexican and Mexican-American friends to the range. Just last weekend at the range I let some gentlemen from Tamaulipas, Mexico shoot my AR. The three of them had never shot a semi-auto rifle before. I think I was preaching to the choir, though. They were shooting some fancy Rem 700s.

GEM
August 14, 2008, 09:43 PM
San Antonio IDPA is fairly diverse. I see Asian, African-Americans, people of the Jewish faith shooting.

Shooting is expensive and one should consider that in making analyses.

hso
August 14, 2008, 10:02 PM
You'd think a gun shop and indoor range in Knoxville in eastern Tennessee would be a cliche' southern/hillbilly scene that any Anti would salivate at the chance to videotape in hopes of capturing Illiterate White Redneck Racists in their "natural habitat". They'd be sorely disappointed though since they'd find members of all races, all education levels over a huge economic range coming and going, buying firearms and supplies and shooting together on the range. Drive less than an hour to the NW and you'd find a world class gun club/range with a membership with more PhDs than any other education level who's members come from all over the world and are also of any ethnic group.

It depends upon where you live.

coyotehitman
August 14, 2008, 11:30 PM
JohnBT, I guess I just don't see it that way.

ArmedLiberal
August 15, 2008, 12:43 AM
I didn't really think anything of it until reading this post today, but I was in my favorite gun shop (River City Gun Exchange, Sacramento, CA) and there was a man in a wheelchair, a woman getting good instruction from a clerk on selecting a gun and where to get firearms training, and a black man buying ammunition. Seemed pretty normal for Sacramento.

It's also common to see women and all sorts of minority folks at the indoor range I go to.

AL

Owen Sparks
August 15, 2008, 01:14 AM
I live in the an area of the South where statisticly every third person is black. When the gun show comes to town there will be several hundres people in there and often not one black guy. On the rare ocasion there is, he will almost always be off duty law enforcement. I don't think there is anything going on in there that would make anyone feel unwelcome. I have also invited black people to go shoot a few times but they just were not intrested. They just don't seem to grt into shooting sports or hunting yet they seem to like fishing. I usually see lots of black folks fishing at the local lake. Different strokes for different folks.

Beagle-zebub
August 15, 2008, 01:17 AM
So then let's let anti-gun people run aroud unchecked and not take them seriously too.

First, no one is threatening to throw anyone in jail because they said "black" instead of "African-American." Gun control, on the other hand, works on just such a basis.

Unlike with race-baiters, people take anti-gun groups seriously--indeed, gun-control strikes me as unique in how much play its proponents get for how poorly thought-out their arguments are.

harrygunner
August 18, 2008, 08:44 PM
The issue of guns spans a wide area including sports, human rights, politics and basic instincts to survive. So, it's complicated.

I read somewhere that the Black middle class is virtually invisible, in the sense that there is almost no coverage or depiction of it in the media. Maybe that's partly why the OP asked the question about this "invisible" group.

Recently, I stopped even visiting gun site I enjoyed as a member for four years because the site's owner initiated posts that would make any minority member consider the possibility that the "gun community" does not welcome them.

I appreciate the people here at Highroad for handling this issue with considered thoughts, not emotion.

If you enjoyed reading about "African-Americans Involvement in the Shooting Sports..." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!