I cant decide. AR or Rem.700


PDA






ndh87
August 13, 2008, 01:36 AM
So Im saving up for a new rifle. I just cant decide which one I want. I already have an AK, mosin and a marlin in .44 cal. All fun guns, but none are as accurate as I'd like. I want something that can shoot 1 to 1.5 MOA. My choice is between a DPMS sportical or a Remington 700 VTR ( the funny triangle barrel one) The ones Im looking at are both about the same price.

The 700 would get a bipod and a nice scope.

The DPMS would get a decent 2-7 scope, an A2 stock and probably a bipod.

I know the .223/5.56 ammo is a little cheaper. The AR has a chance of getting banned, etc.

The 700 i could hunt deer with (i dont hunt often) and it would be good for longer ranges and i could develop a nice handload.

EDIT: The poll should say DPMS, it was a typo and i cant figure out how to change it now.

If you enjoyed reading about "I cant decide. AR or Rem.700" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
dogmush
August 13, 2008, 01:40 AM
I voted Remington, because you mentioned accuraccy and it's more inherentlly accurate. But a good AR will get 1-1.5 MOA.

I also think everyone should have a good scoped bolt gun. I bought my M77 30-06 first and it's still a lot of fun to shoot and my go-to rifle for hunting.

The cruel truth is you'll probably end up with both, so which do you want first?

chaim
August 13, 2008, 01:44 AM
I voted for the Remington. For precision shooting a bolt is usually going to outperform an auto. However, check out the reviews on snipercentral.com (hey, precision shooting is precision shooting, and most of those guys shoot at paper anyway, they aren't LEO snipers or military). While the VTR may win on style points, it sounds like the regular 700SPS Varmint and Tactical may be more accurate than the VTR and they'll save you quite a few bucks.

Oh yeah:

http://i508.photobucket.com/albums/s324/ChaimDov/700SPS%20Varmint/IMG_0134downsizedfile.jpg

publiuss
August 13, 2008, 01:49 AM
You never stated what caliber 700 you were looking at. Nevertheless, I would go ahead and get the AR, no telling what the Dems will cook up after the election. You can get the 700 later. They will both go up in price with time of course, but in my opinion the AR will go up at a faster pace.

bogie
August 13, 2008, 01:55 AM
Im saving up for a new rifle. I just cant decide which one I want. I already have an AK, mosin and a marlin in .44 cal. All fun guns, but none are as accurate as I'd like. I want something that can shoot 1 to 1.5 MOA. My choice is between a DPMS sportical or a Remington 700 VTR ( the funny triangle barrel one) The ones Im looking at are both about the same price.

Does the funny triangle barrel improve accuracy?

The 700 would get a bipod and a nice scope.

No bipod. They SUCK for precision accuracy. They're fine for machineguns. Learn to shoot over a backpack, or something that'll give you a consistent, non-jittery, recoil. Spend that extra money on more scope.

The DPMS would get a decent 2-7 scope, an A2 stock and probably a bipod.

Good choices, but again, I'd lose the bipod.

The 700 i could hunt deer with (i dont hunt often) and it would be good for longer ranges and i could develop a nice handload.

Do you already handload? Don't discount getting a good already-trued rifle with a .308 boltface, and having a .22-250 or .243 barrel made for it.

ndh87
August 13, 2008, 02:15 AM
The bolt gun will be a .308. Bogie - interesting about the bipod being bad for accuracy. Could you elaborate as to why?

I do already reload.

And after looking at Remington's website I think the SPS varmit would fit what im looking for as well.

Either of these rifles would be mainly range rifles but may also be used for varmint removal.

The cruel truth is you'll probably end up with both, so which do you want first?
This is a fact that I came to terms with a long time ago.

dogmush
August 13, 2008, 02:33 AM
Bogie, I too would be interested in more on the Bipod issue.

I've shot bolt guns from Harris Bipods and never found the recoil to be jittery (Or even different then when shooting of a backpack) But when I'm hunting I'm shooting at longest 6-700 yds and shooting at caribou so my definition of precision and long-range might be different then yours. I'm getting back into rifles after a while spent playing with pistols so I'd like to know more.

ndh87- I don't claim to be a sniper, but I've taken Caribou at the above mentioned ranges and consistantly put my 30-06 on paper plates from 600 yds off my bipod, and have found it to be useful in shooting. It helps machine guns too. :)

ndh87
August 13, 2008, 02:51 AM
After reading the reviews on snipercentral Im leaning more toward the sps varmint than the VTR

Jimmie
August 13, 2008, 05:14 AM
I voted Remington, because you mentioned accuracy and it's more inherently accurate. But a good AR will get 1-1.5 MOA.
:confused::scrutiny: Maybe that's as well as the issued rifles shoot, but a quality AR will do a lot better.

dogmush
August 13, 2008, 05:22 AM
Maybe that's as well as the issued rifles shoot, but a quality AR will do a lot better.

To clarify, I wasen't stating the limit of an AR's accuracy, but rather that a good AR will get the accuracy he specified in his original post. The SDMR's I've seen are significantly better then 1 MOA.

Maybe the sentence should have gone like this: The 700 is inherently more accutate, but both will meet your stated requirements.

taliv
August 13, 2008, 08:21 AM
fwiw, i always get better groups from bags than from a bipod. (heck, i get better groups from a sling)

but... i still have a bipod or two attached to guns i would take into a field

possum
August 13, 2008, 09:15 AM
i agree you don't have any scoped bolt guns yet so that is a big nod to that side of the descision. But at the same time you don'ty have an ar and imho everyone should have an ar or 2 or 10, so i would say get the ar first.

Colt46
August 13, 2008, 09:21 AM
You can get an M-700 any old day. Get the AR and laugh when nobody else will be able to buy one in your state.

kevindsingleton
August 13, 2008, 09:33 AM
If accuracy is your goal, either gun will likely outshoot you, on any given day, so it comes down to all the other variables.

If you can hunt with a semi-auto in your area, and whatever you're hunting isn't too big to ethically kill with a .223 Remington round, then the AR will probably be more "fun", overall (more aftermarket gadgets, semi-auto rapid fire, EBR status).

If you need more downrange punch, the 700 is available in a range of calibers to suit just about any need, up to water buffalo and elephant, and can be tweaked to benchrest accuracy, given enough time and money.

Asking a gang of self-proclaimed gun nuts to help you decide is futile. We're going to tell you that you need both guns, and some others you didn't even mention! :D

moooose102
August 13, 2008, 09:46 AM
well, for what it is worth, i think the Remington 700 is one of the finest PRODUCTION rifles ever made. i used to have a 300 yard range, and i was pretty good shooting my 300 win mag at that distance with my box stock 700 with a 3-9 redfeild scope on it. now, i wouldnt attempt that long of a shot, because i do not have a place to practice a shot that long. if you want an accurate, long range rifle, i vote for the Remington.

cracked butt
August 13, 2008, 11:13 AM
If you're going to get a .308, I'd get the remington. If you don't mind spending a few hundred more, get a FN PBR (win model 70)- its a far better rifle than the remington.

If you are going to get a .223, the AR will serve you well so long as you skip the chrome lined crap and get a good DCM match barrel or varmint barrel, skip the flashhiders unless they are indexed with a peel washer, and make sure nothing is pinned to the barrel. I know that some people claim sub-moa accuracy with chromed barrels, but I never was able to get my HBAR to shoot anywhere near that level.

SSN Vet
August 13, 2008, 11:18 AM
get the one you want most.....

it's such an apples to oranges comparison, I don't know how any one can "vote" other than personal preferance

bogie
August 13, 2008, 01:09 PM
You'll get more consistent recoil over a bag. A bipod will tend to jump and skitter around during the recoil impulse, which is not a Good Thing.

In accuracy, the thing that matters first is consistency. In all areas. That leads into everything else.

Plus, bipods get caught on stuff. Tree branches, weeds, etc... Get used to either position shooting or shooting over an improvised -soft- rest.

(for a while benchresters were filling their sandbags HARD with fine sandblasting sand... Now, they're going softer, because some folks did some testing, and a softer bag is more consistent)

KBintheSLC
August 13, 2008, 04:30 PM
I would say get the 700. You already have an AK, so your urban combat gun is covered... not to mention the ammo for the AR is almost double the price of the AK ammo. As for the accuracy of the AK... the one I have is not nearly as bad as folks give it credit for. I am consistently hitting a 7" steel plate at 300 yards with iron sights on my Yugo underfolder. That is good enough for me.

Beyond 300 yards, and AR will not be that much better... the lighter bullet is more susceptible to wind drift, and it loses more of its needed velocity due to the 62grn pebbles it spits. Not to say that AR's are not great weapons... they are excellent weapons. It's just the you will merely be adding a redundant element to your wardrobe by getting one if you already have an AK.

Now, if you get the 700 in say a 308, you will be adding a new level of diversity to your cabinet. Grab the 700 now, and save the AR for later.

chaim
August 13, 2008, 07:03 PM
Does the funny triangle barrel improve accuracy?

Apparently no, but it does look cool (especially with the built in muzzlebreak).

Check out the Sniper Central review:

http://www.snipercentral.com/vtr.htm

He got an average group size of .858"

That is good, but compare it to his average in the SPS Varmint and SPS Tactical (rifles that run a couple hundred dollars less) with more traditional barrels:

The Varmint (http://www.snipercentral.com/remspsv.htm) had an average group size of .725" (.554" with an HS stock off a 700P).
The Tactical got a .466" average group (http://www.snipercentral.com/spstactical.htm)

Still, the VTR does look pretty cool.

If you don't mind spending a few hundred more, get a FN PBR (win model 70)- its a far better rifle than the remington.

Not sure how you get that it is a far better rifle than the Remington. Both are well made guns, fit and finish is good on both. While the main advantage the FN PBR may have over the Remington SPS Varmint is the stock, the Remington SPS Tactical and the FN use the same Hogue stock. I also wouldn't say the FN has an accuracy advantage (and Sniper Central certainly didn't find one, their average group size on the FN was .93"). And for all this, the FN costs $200-300 more.

So how exactly do you figure the FN to be a far better gun than the Remington (or even the better gun). Heck, I even picked the Remington over the current CDNN deal where you can get the FN for around the same price as the Remington.

ds92
August 13, 2008, 07:42 PM
IMO the AR is the better choice. If Obama gets into office the black guns are going to be the first priority on his firearms ban agenda. Remington 700's are very nice guns but they aren't going to be affected by the firearms ban (hopefully) so if you decide you would rather have a 700 you can sell your AR and buy a 700

Eightball
August 13, 2008, 11:40 PM
The Remington and such have been around for a while, and will continue to be so. AR15 clones could get mighty hard to find after November, much less acquire, depend on who gets elected.

younganddumb
August 14, 2008, 11:39 AM
can you guys stop saying after november b/c no one will be in office till jan.

chute2thrill
August 14, 2008, 11:01 PM
chaim... I'm liking that 700... That cherry sunburst Les Paul looks mighty fine too!!

EShell
August 14, 2008, 11:42 PM
JMHO, but if an AR-15 is under consideration, I would suggest buying that first, due to political trends. The bolt guns will likely be available long after future bans of scary looking semi-autos and I would make that my second purchase.

Not to be argumentative Bogie, but I'd respectfully disagree with much of your generalized bipod criticism.
You'll get more consistent recoil over a bag. A bipod will tend to jump and skitter around during the recoil impulse, which is not a Good Thing.Shooting from a good bipod (Harris) and using a decent rear bag (Traid/RedTac) will yield very good results for those that bother to refine their technique. I regularly see 1/4 to 1/2 MOA groups from my custom rifles using a bipod and we regularly shoot steel plates (sizes equivalent to 1 to 2 moa) at 1k plus from our bipods. I regularly shoot tactical matches and get beaten by bipod users too.

I find a pack difficult to use unless it is filled just so, with the contents arranged just so. A pack full of compressed winter clothing can be very easy to shoot from. A pack half filled with irregularly shaped things like a data book, water bottle and ammo box is worse than a solid slung prone.In accuracy, the thing that matters first is consistency. In all areas. That leads into everything else.Agreed 100%Plus, bipods get caught on stuff. Tree branches, weeds, etc...LOL, my pack gives me more of a fit with that stuff than the bipod. I seldom have difficulty with fouling my bipod, since the same muzzle discipline that keeps your muzzle from getting plugged keeps the bipod out of obstructions.Get used to either position shooting or shooting over an improvised -soft- rest.Position shooting with a sling is an excellent skill and well worth learning. A soft rest has it's ups and downs . . . literally.(for a while benchresters were filling their sandbags HARD with fine sandblasting sand... Now, they're going softer, because some folks did some testing, and a softer bag is more consistent)They did find that a bag packed too hard rendered a bounce at recoil that a softer sandbag eliminated. They still use a very fine sand, as well as "heavy" (silicon) sand.

Of course, everyone's MMV, but I'd suggest that dismissing a good bipod setup out of hand is a mistake. There are certain tricks that come with experience that eliminate many problems that people have when fist trying them out. Also, bipod designs vary, and some are crap. A correctly utilized Harris bipod of correct height is really tough to beat.

This is a typical bipod/rear bag setup, and this particular .260 shoots 1/2 MOA with Black Hills 139 Scenar factory match ammo.

http://www.pillicustomhomes.com/eshell/213/g260-10.jpg


Properly steered, many of these rifles will shoot to 3/8 moa or less with the same setup, and don't do much better with my Hart pedestal front rest and my Protecktor bunny ear rear bag. You'll notice I do own a "few" Harris bipods, so you know I have actually used them:

http://www.pillicustomhomes.com/eshell/213/PrecisionHerd01s.jpg

sarduy
August 15, 2008, 12:05 AM
Hey bro, i had the same question a while ago, i end up buying both, the Remington and a CMMG M4.

I would recommend you to get the Remington 700 SPS (Varmint or Tactical) in .308 for the kind of accuracy you are looking for, they can be found for $450-500 then add a Tasco varmint scope for about $80-$100 , and then save the rest of the money and get yourself a Del-ton kit for about $465 plus shipping, and add a lower for $79-$100,

estimated total for both guns = $1100-1200

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/9518/pict0929tp9.jpg

Tarvis
August 15, 2008, 12:13 AM
I voted for the AR, but it was very close. I say plan on getting both.

caseypj
August 15, 2008, 12:19 AM
Get the AR while you still can, I'm looking into an AR-10 even though I already have an AR-15.

sweetbeard
August 15, 2008, 12:46 AM
I voted 700 but look at weatherby vanguard sub-moa!

chaim
August 15, 2008, 03:07 PM
chaim... I'm liking that 700... That cherry sunburst Les Paul looks mighty fine too!!

Thanks on both counts, though I actually enjoy that Seagull acoustic you can just barely see more than the Les Paul (I have thick fingers and it is easier to fret).

I still haven't got out with that 700 yet, but we're bonding OK through dry firing (I must say I'm really impressed with the trigger). Hopefully, I'll get out sometime after work this week.

MT GUNNY
August 15, 2008, 03:47 PM
Id go for the AR first, then get this83064

BusMaster007
August 15, 2008, 07:19 PM
Buy an ArmaLite AR10.
You'll have the AR.
You'll have the .308.
GET BOTH!

:D

rantingredneck
August 15, 2008, 07:44 PM
Buy both.........

Geno
August 15, 2008, 07:59 PM
ndh87:

I had a DPMS AP4 with custom steel upper receiver in .308 Win/7.62 NATO. Off the bench the rifle grouped 0.25" at 100 yards. Cost: $1,150.00ish and $150.00 for the custom receiver.

I have a Remington Model 700 Varmint SPS in .223 Rem. Off the bench this rifle groups 0.18" at 100 yards. Cost: $515.00ish.

Choose your poisen. :cool:

Doc2004

rob_s
August 17, 2008, 06:31 PM
DPMS vs. Remington?

Remington. Although I don't get that weird triangle barrel. I'd look for an LTR. Especially if you think you're going to tote it into the field to hunt.

fireman 9731
November 17, 2008, 01:03 AM
I got a VTR in 22-250 and love it.
shoots 1/2 MOA off a harris bipod with handloads, The new accu-trigger is great, I lightened it up and it breaks like glass. the barrel is pretty cool, the muzzle break does make things pretty loud, really cant shoot it without hearing protection though.
I put an magazine extender on it and an NcStar 10-40x50 illuminated range finding scope, along with the bipod it looks pretty mean.

The black overmold grips on the stock are really grippy and the vented fore end, along with the barrel design cools the barrel down pretty quick.
I really like it, a good combo gun for the range and hunting...

If you enjoyed reading about "I cant decide. AR or Rem.700" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!