Violent Neighbor - No Police Protection - What do I do?


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will500
August 13, 2008, 07:11 PM
Hello all, this is my first time on this forum. I do not own a gun, yet. Excuse me if I rant a bit...

I am about to become a first time gun owner, though I have fired many guns of various types and understand how to fire one properly.

I live in a small apartment complex. Recently we have had new down stairs neighbors move in, young "jock" party types. We didn't mind the noise at first but the pot smoke seeping into our apartment was too much.

I once heard the violent one that lives there, what sounded like beating a woman or something, and had to call the police. I couldn't let my wife leave as the guy had lost control slamming around the house.

The cops did nothing... "keep it down"...

On the 4th of July, at mid-night, 11:50pm or so, he decided (the violent one) that it would be a good idea to blast music.

I pounded on the floor. (Apartment talk for "keep it down")

He cranked it up louder. I went down there to ask what the hell was his problem.

The guy flipped out completely, like roid rage style. He was talking about how if I ever called the cops again he would kick my ass (I guess because we called the cops when he may have been beating a woman) and blah blah. He then went on ranting and calling names and all of that. I closed and locked the door as the guy was out of his mind. He then started banging on the door and trying to open the handle to get inside... and do something violent I am sure.

I... lied... to him and told him I had a gun pointed at the door, to back away and the cops have been called.

He continued to scream and rant like a mad man and then ran off in his car before the cops came. Funny how three cops come when they know a gun is involved but once they realize no one is hurt they have zero care. They only asked, "How tall was he?" and left.

I called the management, they said they would do something. The other neighbors were gone for the weekend, unfortunately there were no witnesses.

Anyway, three weeks past. Again, loud music shaking my place, I pound, guy FREAKS OUT!!! He pounds on our door with his fists and body, as if trying to break it open, rings the door bell a ton and intimidates us.

There is a little old lady that is in the apartment next to them, she has a home alarm system. He was screaming and pounding so hard that it set off her alarm, scaring that lady from the alarm and banging and scared other neighbors near by as well.

He then went inside and blasted his music again for a while, then left.

I called the management, they said they never did anything about the 4th of July indecent, but promised they would this time. Pft.

I called the police they said all they could do is maybe give them a small noise fine, if I go before a judge.

No one will help. He is a violent person and it has caused us to live in fear and stress. I have to watch when my wife leaves in case he flips, for instance.


I will be buying a gun to protect ourselves while living here.


What kind of handgun is not HUGE but not tiny, something that says "I'm not ****ing around." when it's being pointed at someone. A gun that is... cheaper.. not so large it's a burden to carry/hold up but not something so small that it's more "cute" than "oh ****!", inducing. If you get my meaning.


What are my rights here? I live in Pennsylvania.


It is sad that it has come to this as this is a nice neighborhood, other than these guys.

I also plan on printing up notices to tape on everyone's door giving them a quick overview about the cops, the drugs and the violence. That may help the management do something...

The hand gun suggestions and any other non-violent suggestions to this situation are welcome.

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Drgong
August 13, 2008, 07:16 PM
I am sorry your dealing with this.

I will say one thing, if you ever to the point where you pull out a gun, be aware that you may need to USE it, and if your unwilling to use it, then you need to look at other methods.

If it is the case that you really think that it the point where your worried about your life, then you came to the right place.

will500
August 13, 2008, 07:18 PM
Thanks, I'd hate to kill some guy, but if he comes at me and my wife, the cops said that is fair game...

We have a can of mace.. I was told never to test it.. I have no clue how good mace is or if it even works. There is no feeling of security with this can of mace.

thebaldguy
August 13, 2008, 07:18 PM
Go to the landlord and complain about the tenant's actions. It may be time to move; you can talk to your landlord about breaking your lease due to another resident's aggressive behavior. Let them know that you feel the building is too dangerous.

Geno
August 13, 2008, 07:19 PM
will500:

I pounded on the floor. (Apartment talk for "keep it down")

He cranked it up louder. I went down there to ask what the hell was his problem.

The guy flipped out completely, like roid rage style. He was talking about how if I ever called the cops again he would kick my ass and blah blah. He then went on ranting and calling names and all of that. I closed and locked the door as the guy was out of his mind. He then started banging on the door and trying to open the handle to get inside... and do something violent I am sure.

I... lied... to him and told him I had a gun pointed at the door, to back away and the cops have been called.

He continued to scream and rant like a mad man and then ran off in his car before the cops came. Funny how three cops come when they know a gun is involved but once they realize no one is hurt they have zero care. They only asked, "How tall was he?" and left.

After reading your post, I am uncertain if you are a troll, or just uninformed about firearms laws. It seems to me that little by little you too are escalating the negative. Why pound the floor?! Why go down and ask him what the "hell" is problem is?! That's called escalating the trouble. Then, you threatened that you had a firearm pointed at him trhough a door?! In my humble opinion, perhaps you should not buy a firearm.

Doc2005

tntwatt
August 13, 2008, 07:20 PM
start here http://www.pafoa.org/ your states firearms owner association. It'll be a start to learning your gun laws and rights.

plexreticle
August 13, 2008, 07:26 PM
Pester the cops and landlord every time this guy does something. Don't confront the guy.

The landlord will either kick him out or let you break the lease and leave.

pappy
August 13, 2008, 07:28 PM
I might be inclined to talk to the other tennants and get written complaints from everyone you can. This might provide the landlord with enough pressure to do something. Definatley document everything, the more documentation you have, the better your defense will be should things escalate and you end up shooting the guy.

Wang
August 13, 2008, 07:30 PM
The rack of a pump shotgun is a real attention getter. I don't think anyone wants to be starring down the barrel of a 12 ga. Do they have the Castle Doctrine in Pennsylvania?

csmkersh
August 13, 2008, 07:30 PM
Stop confronting the guy.
File a noise complaint with the police every time he cranks the music up.
Go down and talk to some one in the DA's office and see what can be done about the noise and threats. You might mention you think he's dealing.
Move.

Rmart30
August 13, 2008, 07:36 PM
Pester the cops and landlord every time this guy does something. Don't confront the guy.

The landlord will either kick him out or let you break the lease and leave.

agreed ....... if you have a camcorder you can record the loud music or his actions also to show the landlord or police.

Pat-inCO
August 13, 2008, 07:37 PM
We have a can of mace.. I was told never to test it.. I have no clue how good mace is or if it even works.
Pick a spot where the breeze is coming from the side (AND you will not affect others) and give a short blast at a tree or shrub. Then walk close to it. DO NOT touch it or you will wish you had not done that.

NO it does not render the remaining fluid unusable. Depending on the size of the spray can, you can get from a single five second blast to several five second blasts (depends on the size you purchased). You also want to know how it works (spray or stream, etc.). The time to find that out is NOT when you need it.

As good as a gun for self defense? Sure is a LOT better than nothing. If you get the good ones, the only person it will not stop is someone fully strung out on PCP. The main advantage is the you are not going to face murder charges or assault with a deadly weapon.

On a side note, there were many many other ways to handle the situation. Your direct confrontation has set the tone for further confrontations.

Introducing a firearm into a situation such as you describe here is a bad, bad idea
+1!

Drgong
August 13, 2008, 07:41 PM
Will, I will just go over a few things. I grew up in one of the most violent cities in the United States, and I know a number of people who are pushing up flowers when they shouldn't. You do need to stand up for yourself, but learn not to be so confrontational.

First, you have confronted him a number of times, which is not a good thing, and makes be very hesident to recommend a gun as it not used for intimidation and it needs to be used as a last resort, not "I am going to flash this gun so he turns down his music" , instead it is "He going to bust down my door and I have to protect my family."

First of all, stop confronting the guy.
2nd of all, report him for dealing, if anything else, that will get the police to look at him closer.
3rd, if he is truly this bad, other tenants will have the same compliant, and go as a group to your landlord.
4th - learn what is is to be justified to show a weapon, as I am worried that from what i have heard, that you will get arrested for threatening him with a gun if you buy one.

I am worried your buying a gun as a shortcut on a situation, and that will only lead to BAD things, such as you going to jail for years.

Intrepid Dad
August 13, 2008, 07:41 PM
The Bald Guy said:

Go to the landlord and complain about the tenant's actions. It may be time to move; you can talk to your landlord about breaking your lease due to another resident's aggressive behavior. Let them know that you feel the building is too dangerous.

I agree with this advice. If your landlord says you can't get out of the lease I would probably pay an attorney to review the contract and see if there is any legal means to break the lease. Either this guy needs to be tossed out or it's time for you and your wife to move.

KelVarnson
August 13, 2008, 07:42 PM
1.) If he was really going to kick your a$$, he would have by now.

2.) Don't print up the flyers, they will only antagonize him, and I am sure the other neighbors are already aware of him.

3.) Every time he bothers you, day or night, call the property OWNER, not the manager. I have apartments on three sides of me, trust me, this works, and works fast. Absentee owners will do whatever is necessary to avoid being awakened at all hours of the night. They are ususally in it for the money, and want it to be as "hands off" as possible. Once it becomes "hands on", they will react quickly. The property owner's name should be available as public record, likely from the County that you are in.

4.) In the mean time, try to stay calm and don't deliberately antagonize the guy. Don't escalate. Live your life as best you can and try not to overreact to his childish outbursts.

5.) I understand the feeling of needing a firearm, I bought my first shotgun in response to a similar problem. If you go this route, learn everything you can about using it, and the consequences of using it. Lurking at this site is one (and only one) good way to do this.

Drgong
August 13, 2008, 07:45 PM
calling the owner is the best idea, not the manager, find the owner though the local tax office. they know who owns the building :)

boredelmo
August 13, 2008, 07:47 PM
What kind of handgun is not HUGE but not tiny, something that says "I'm not ****ing around." when it's being pointed at someone. A gun that is... cheaper.. not so large it's a burden to carry/hold up but not something so small that it's more "cute" than "oh ****!", inducing. If you get my meaning.

That's not the general way I would be thinking. A gun CAN be used as a deterrent, but you dont want to be that guy waiving a guy around being a tough guy do you? Sounds like you might be getting into his area and fighting his fight.

Stick to the high road right? I'm not saying you shouldn't have a gun, because honestly this guy does sound like he'd do something stupid. But with that attitude? Showing who has the bigger balls? Have a gun if it comes down to it, but not to scare him.

A general ideology says that you shouldn't present a gun unless you plan to shoot him. By no way do i mean just shoot him. quite the opposite.

If he isnt getting evicted, move. If youre intent on staying, reinforce the door + alarm. If your plan is to show him youve got a big scary gun the next time he comes pounding on your door, then you have to adjust your mentality.

Seek all peacable means to end of conflict first. If you have a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail. Make sure your gun isn't a hammer ya know?

P.S. Start a good paper trail at the PD. Not to complain ABOUT him, but to note that fact that you're AFRAID of him. To be honest, I'd go over in the PM with a 6 pack as a peace offering and try to come to a compromise, but thats just me, I'm pretty social like that ;).

RNB65
August 13, 2008, 07:48 PM
One of you have to go. If the owner/management of the building won't do anything to resolve the situation, it's time to start packing.

knicks118
August 13, 2008, 07:49 PM
First of all, you don't need a gun in this case and you'd be digging your own grave legally.

What I would do it beat this guy down hard and shut him up. But it seems you are intimidated by him.

The smart thing to do is keep calling management and the police. Management probably won't do anything unless more people complain as well. The police is get tired of coming to the apartment and just tell the guy to stfu.

will500
August 13, 2008, 07:49 PM
The managers are the property owners, I have complained, each time so have other neighbors. They claim they'll do something. They don't.

I wouldn't "flash a gun to keep the noise down", that is silly. This guy has tried to get inside our place. I would only bring out the gun when this guys starts trying to get in again. Though I suppose I can not mention it legally, thanks for that advice.

I forgot to mention, each time the cops would leave, the guy would scream at our door and up at the ceiling to intimidate us.

I do not have the thousands it would take to move.

That's not the general way I would be thinking. A gun CAN be used as a deterrent, but you dont want to be that guy waiving a guy around being a tough guy do you? Sounds like you might be getting into his area and fighting his fight.

No I don't want to be that guy waving a gun. I'm just not sure what to do. Though the advice on here is good, thank you so far.

If you have a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail. Make sure your gun isn't a hammer ya know?

Good point. I'm not the bully type but I see what you mean there.

CountGlockula
August 13, 2008, 07:49 PM
You have every right to take action and by protecting yourself. Most IMPORTANTLY, make sure you are educated on PA self defense gun laws.

I'd recommend taking a CCW course and purchasing a Glock. But know that a gun should be your VERY last resort in stopping a threat of imminent danger.

...or picking up a nice Remington 870 should do it too.

Treo
August 13, 2008, 07:50 PM
First let me say welcome to THR.

Now let's talk about your OP.

First let me be as clear as I can possibly be Firearms are never to be used for intimidation EVER if you don't truly feel that your life is in danger you have no business using a gun.

Second; Stop interacting W/ the guy, you already know that doesn't work . All you are doing is escalating the situation. If you antagonize the guy until he beats down your door & then shoot him it isn't going to be a justified shooting.

Final point go to your land lord every time the guy steps out of line. Document every instance, when you have enough instances to establish a pattern tell your land lord you're moving regardless of the lease.

I can't imagine a landlord allowing a single tenant to distrupt the premises to that extent W/out taking action.

no_problem
August 13, 2008, 07:53 PM
Welcome.

Sorry to hear about your trouble. You ought to protect your family. The police cannot protect you. They don't get involved until AFTER something has happened. They come in and determine if it's really a crime. Would you like to wait until AFTER something has happened? By then it is too late. It is time to move.

Document all of your calls to the police
Document all of your conversations with the landlord
document all of the conversations with the guy, document all of the neighbor's comments

Get a restraining order

Time to move

Avoid confrontation if at all possible, back down whenever you can. Leave bravado for the movies, the cemetery is filled with heroes.

...but get a gun if you run into a situation that you can't talk your way out of. Never brandish it, never, ever threaten anyone with it. But if he threatens your family, if he threatens you, if he lays a hand on your family or you, then pull the trigger and pray.

A pump action shotgun is a good firearm. Something like a Remington 870.

Drgong
August 13, 2008, 07:59 PM
Welcome.

Sorry to hear about your trouble. It is time to move, but you also ought to protect your family.

Document all of your calls to the police
Document all of your conversations with the landlord
document all of the conversations with the guy, document all of the neighbor's comments

Get a restraining order

Time to move

Avoid confrontation if at all possible, back down whenever you can. Leave bravado for the movies, the cemetery is filled with heroes.

...but get a gun if you run into a situation that you can't talk your way out of. Never brandish it, never, ever threaten anyone with it. But if he threatens your family, if he threatens you, if he lays a hand on your family or you, then pull the trigger and prey.

I will second that.

Also look at a mossberg 500 type shotgun, which can be had for not that much, a Shotgun, not a handgun, is the best home defense gun that one can have. Go to your local gunstore and see what they have in shotguns. Don't use it for intimindation, don't even talk to him. Just call the police when you smell pot or he noisy, and call the landlord (not the manager)

stay INDOORS when this happens, not even looking outside to see what happens.

And only use it if he breaks into your house, then, AND ONLY THEN, use the shotgun.

Newton
August 13, 2008, 08:05 PM
You really don't want to shoot someone who is unarmed, alone, and with whom you now have a documented history of "problems".

The solution is annoying, but effective - you should move to another apartment well away from him in the same complex, or move to another complex entirely.

He won't change his behavior, so you have to change yours.

BAT1
August 13, 2008, 08:08 PM
The management better do something about this. Send a certified letter to the management with witnesses signing also. Keep a copy. If something happens, they can be held liable big time. But you don't want anything bad to happen, so call the management EVERY time it happens. Let him get violent with them or the cops. They have to see it in person. Then they will probably smell that smell and it will take it's own course. DO NOT go down and knock his door. He will blame you because you knocked before. You don't want retaliation when he gets busted or kicked out. Record the music coming through the walls. Record any conversations he may start with you. I also recommend self defense classes, and do not say you bought the gun for protection from him. I used to manage property for six years and had two nuts like him. We got one busted, and the other one tried to beat me up one night. He got arrested after I cleaned his clock with some self defense moves. Keep witnesses around you until he or you are gone. If you smell that smell, call the fire dept and tell them you smell smoke. They will add to the witness list and the cops will respond if they call. Sounds like you have some lousy cops, you might want to chat with their commander. You might consider a small 9mm or .38 . Go to the local range that rents them so you can get a feel for it. If you pull heat make darn sure it is life threatening.

will500
August 13, 2008, 08:16 PM
Okay, I won't pound on the floor anymore. If the stereo blasts I'll call the police and management.

I usually wouldn't care about pot smoke, I don't care what people do, normally. But in this rare case if I smell it I'll... be a "lamer"... and call the cops just to get him out.

Maybe this post was 50% for answers and 50% for "getting it off my chest".

as suggested I might look at this:
http://personalsecurityzone.com/cgi-win/order/prodlist.exe/PSZ/?Template=ProdDetail.htm&ProductID=19761

Cheap and scary. I'll probably just stare at it and not get it... he did try to get in that one time though... hard choice. I'd rather not have a gun around.

Monkeybear
August 13, 2008, 08:21 PM
1.) If he was really going to kick your a$$, he would have by now.

2.) Don't print up the flyers, they will only antagonize him, and I am sure the other neighbors are already aware of him.

Good advice.

I have been in a similar situation once and seen several others transpire. I grew up in the bad parts of the city and have almost always lived in apartments. With me it ended when they up and moved one day. I have seen the whole situation just dissolve with a friend who was involved in something similar; they just got over it one day. Another time the guys place was broken into while he slept and he was stabbed 25 times. He survived by the way. From the way I heard it told a firearm would not have done him an ounce of good.

The buyout on my lease is $450. Thats the price of a decent gun. I would rather pay the $450 and move than believe my wife is in danger. I would rather pay the $450 than have to kill someone. Talk to the apt manager and the property owner. See if you can get a different apt in a different building of the same complex without having to pay a new deposit or buy out your lease. Maybe a change in proximity will solve your problem.


What kind of handgun is not HUGE but not tiny, something that says "I'm not f*cking around." when it's being pointed at someone. A gun that is... cheaper.. not so large it's a burden to carry/hold up but not something so small that it's more "cute" than "oh sh*t!", inducing. If you get my meaning.

How the gun looks is irrelevant. Do not threaten people with firearms.
Making a threat on the life of another person is illegal, especially so if you use a gun. Not only is it illegal but it will escalate the level of violence. Also: its stupid. Why would you threaten someone whom you believe is a dangerous drug addict? Why would you want this person to know you have a gun?

Situations where you do not need to be pointing a gun at someone.
1. Your and/or your wife's lives are not in immediate danger
2. You are not prepared to use deadly force.
3. You are trying to scare someone.

Situations where you do.
1. Their current behavior could be described as "trying to kill you".
2. You believe that in the immediate future they are going to try to kill you.

*******************

I guess what I am trying to say here is that if you are worried that your neighbor won't take your gun seriously then you need to reevaluate your ideas on using a gun for self defense.

The the real questions are:

"How to diffuse a potentially violent situation?"
"What dose it mean to take the life of another?"
"Am I capable of taking the life of another?"
"What are mistakes that gun owners make in SD/HD situations?"
"What constitutes a SD/HD situation, both to myself and legally?"
"When is use of a deadly weapon justified both legally and to myself"
"Where can I seek training in the use of firearms for self defense?"
"What are the potential consequences of homicide in my state?"
"What dose my lawyer say about all this?"
"What dose my wife say?"

LSU Fan
August 13, 2008, 08:21 PM
Funny how three cops come when they know a gun is involved but once they realize no one is hurt they have zero care. They only asked, "How tall was he?" and left

This just reminded me, thought I'd share...

My CCW instructor noted that (as a retired LEO), "Average response time for XXPD is 10-15 minutes... but when they hear that a gun is involved... response time is now more like 3 minutes."

IMHO, One should alert the authorities whenever possible, and prepare them for the scene they are about to respond to... i.e. alerting them that you or others are armed. It's not the best idea to have a gun in hand when the police arrive, but if it happens, remaining calm and compliant could save your life.

Ok enough rambling... just sharing my $.02

Sindawe
August 13, 2008, 08:30 PM
Okay, I won't pound on the floor anymore. If the stereo blasts I'll call the police and management.

Since your neighbor has already proven himself to of the un-neighborly type and unreceptive to a politie request, this would be the best course of action.

I usually wouldn't care about pot smoke, I don't care what people do, normally. But in this rare case if I smell it I'll... be a "lamer"...

Same here. What folks do in the privacy of their homes concerns me not one wit, UNTIL it starts intruding into my home. Calling for action on a nuisance such as Cannabis sp. smoke does not strike me as being a "lamer". A considerate dope-smoking neighbor would at least light some incense and use a HEPA filter in the house.

As far as as the shot-gun goes, I've got this one ( http://personalsecurityzone.com/cgi-win/order/prodlist.exe/PSZ/?Template=ProdDetail.htm&ProductID=20892 ) in 12 guage with the ghost-ring sights. Helps with accurate aiming during practice sessions.

If you pick up a firearm, you DO intend to practice with it I trust.

meef
August 13, 2008, 08:30 PM
To be honest, I'd go over in the PM with a 6 pack as a peace offering and try to come to a compromise, but thats just me, I'm pretty social like that.Umm.... I get the impression that a lid might be a more appropriate peace offering in this situation.

:cool:

crushbup
August 13, 2008, 08:34 PM
Here's what you should and shouldn't do:
DO buy a gun, a shotgun if you can. If it must be a pistol, go with a GLOCK, they're cheap used and come in every size and flavor you can imagine. I think the lines of the gun make it intimidating, but don't bank on it.
DO call the owner.
DO call the police, maybe they'll catch him in the act of beating down your door.

DO NOT brandish the gun. This could escalate the situation, and either way, I wouldn't open that door if he's out there.
DO NOT get trigger happy and shoot him
DO NOT physically confront him or do anything to agitate him.

The gun is in case he manages to get inside and is looking for blood.

Zundfolge
August 13, 2008, 08:37 PM
Go ahead and get a gun, but it should NEVER leave your apartment*. Its there just in case this guy tries to come in uninvited and THAT IS IT. Period. I know its been stated over and over again, but you NEVER use a gun as a prop to frighten/threaten someone. I've known this type and pointing a gun at him is more likely to get him to call your bluff and when he does he's taking your gun away from you and killing you with it (lets hope he stops there). Also, the instant you threaten him with a gun over noise the cops are going to become HIS friend and take YOU away (for one thing, law abiding citizens are easier to get into the patrol car than some roided up hot head. Cops don't like to get hurt either).

As has been stated over and over again, constantly call the police and landlord about this guy. At this point it doesn't matter if you stopped calling, every time anyone calls he'll assume its you. But if something happens you're going to need that paper trail. Further more, if you wish to sue your landlord this same paper trail is going to help there.

Remind your landlord that he could be held legally responsible (http://www.move.com/rentals/know-your-rights/Landlord-Liability-for-Criminal-Acts-and-Activities-FAQ.aspx) if this creep does anything to you. He's full if it if he thinks he can't legally kick this SOB out for threatening his other tenants. Remember there is only one single thing your landlord cares about is his own wallet. Right now he's afraid that Roid-boy will either harm him, destroy property or if he thinks the guy is brighter than you're average punk he's afraid he'll sue him for evicting him. Also keep in mind that eviction isn't a free process, you need to make him realize that it will be cheaper to evict Roid-boy than it will to deal with YOUR lawyer.

If this guy has made direct threats to you, document them and go get a restraining order. The restraining order will be 110% worthless when it comes to making this guy stop his behavior, but when you take it to your landlord you have yet another legal tool to push him to get rid of this guy.


Just remember a gun is your LAST resort, as annoying as this guy is if you're forced to shoot him and the shoot is a "good shoot" its still going to be a difficult and expensive situation for you. You WILL be arrested, you WILL have to come up with bail, you WILL have to pay an attorney and even if you're "no-billed" by a grand jury and walk you're still going to be out of pocket several grand.


Now, I want you to go into your bathroom, look into the mirror and repeat 20 times; "I am NOT a cop!" (I'll be in my bathroom repeating "I am NOT a lawyer!" :D)


*Well it can leave, unloaded and cased, when you take it to the range for practice.

rainbowbob
August 13, 2008, 08:38 PM
I went down there to ask what the hell was his problem...The guy flipped out completely...I closed and locked the door as the guy was out of his mind. He then started banging on the door and trying to open the handle to get inside... and do something violent I am sure.

Will500:
Either I'm missing something or this story doesn't quite add up. If you "...went down there..." - how were you able to close and lock the door with him on the other side of it trying to get in? Weren't you at HIS door?

Bill2e
August 13, 2008, 08:46 PM
One word: MOVE

Monkeybear
August 13, 2008, 08:47 PM
Quote:
I went down there to ask what the hell was his problem...The guy flipped out completely...I closed and locked the door as the guy was out of his mind. He then started banging on the door and trying to open the handle to get inside... and do something violent I am sure.


Will500:
Either I'm missing something or this story doesn't quite add up. If you "...went down there..." - how were you able to close and lock the door with him on the other side of it trying to get in? Weren't you at HIS door?

Unless he locked himself inside the other guys apt. which would explain the other guy getting so upset; especially if he has been living there since.

In all seriousness he either probably went back up to his own place and did not outline that one detail in his story or its all just a fabrication.

meef
August 13, 2008, 08:48 PM
Unless he locked himself inside the other guys apt. which would explain the other guy getting so upset especially if he has been living there since.Now that's funny....:D

Cosmoline
August 13, 2008, 08:53 PM
Forget the handgun unless you intend to get a conceal carry license or have some particular interest in shooting handguns for sport. You run a huge risk with a handgun that you will miss and/or that any hits will not stop a large man.

GET A CARBINE OR SHOTGUN. Get to a range to learn the basics of safety and how to work it. Load it with appropriate shot or HP/SP ammo. Do not brandish it to scare him off or expect the noise of racking it to frighten him. Learn your state's gun laws, gun transport laws and laws for use of deadly force in self defense. Typically under state law it is to be used only if you are in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm. But learn your own state's code.

Further, I would encourage you to contact the building owner and look to your state's landlord tenant act. Let the owner know the problems with the pot smoke, loud music. If nothing is done, I'd advise moving out post haste. Do not contact or try to talk to the neighbor.

You really don't want to shoot someone who is unarmed, alone, and with whom you now have a documented history of "problems".

You don't want to shoot anyone unless you have to. The documented history shows you have called the police who have done nothing. I would suggest keeping clear of him and not confronting him, but if he's kicked your door in and has come to kill you then by all means shot him. Either that or die, it's up to you.

HIcarry
August 13, 2008, 08:55 PM
As mentioned, a landlord may be legally liable for assaults on their property, but that generally requires that the landlord knows, or should have known, the situation was such that the probability of an assault, or other crime, was "reasonable." Therefore, document each and every time the other tenent threatens you, each and every time you notify the landlord about these threats, and each and every time you have to call the police (of fire department). Such documentation can go a long ways in proving that the landlord knew the conditions and the high risk of assault existed.
I would also review your lease/rental agreement, with the assumption that all the leases/rental agreements are the same for the building, for any language to the effect that the tenent shall use the property "in quite enjoyment." The phrase, or something substantially similar, is common in many leases/rental agreements and may provide a means to either force the landlord to evict the offending tenent, or to get out of your lease by claiming that the landlord broke the terms of the lease agreement by not enforcing the "quite enjoyment" clause of the other tenent.
Good luck.

will500
August 13, 2008, 08:56 PM
Either I'm missing something or this story doesn't quite add up. If you "...went down there..." - how were you able to close and lock the door with him on the other side of it trying to get in? Weren't you at HIS door?

Our doors intersect at an "L", right next to each other. The stairs are inside our apartment. As in you open our door and there are stairs to go up. I opened my door, his door was open... not sure why?... and before I was even able to open my mouth he was yammering about how "It's not even on" (hah) and ect, then he grew in rage, quickly, he was hulking out.

He was then talking about how he'd kick my ass if we ever called the cops again, was making fun of the fact that our car died 2 weeks earlier (we had let him use our parking space once he figured out that our car had died (tranny blew)), name calling and ect ect. Screaming all the time in roid rage mode.

I just closed and locked the door because it was obvious the guy was going nuts and getting nuttier. He then started beating against the door hard and turning at the handle hard.

I didn't know what to do so I paused a few sec while he continued to try to get in then told him I had a gun and that we are calling the cops. You know the rest. Okay, claiming the gun was probably not the best, but when a 6'7" mega muscle dude is flipping out and trying to get into your house.... ya.

Remind your landlord that he could be held legally responsible if this creep does anything to you. He's full if it if he thinks he can't legally kick this SOB out for threatening his other tenants. Remember there is only one single thing your landlord cares about is his own wallet. Right now he's afraid that Roid-boy will either harm him, destroy property or if he thinks the guy is brighter than you're average punk he's afraid he'll sue him for evicting him. Also keep in mind that eviction isn't a free process, you need to make him realize that it will be cheaper to evict Roid-boy than it will to deal with YOUR lawyer.

Nice! I will try the "legal scare tactics". I'm usually not one for lawyer stuff... I keep to myself and don't want trouble.

If this is the game we must play let it be.

We will be sending in our monthly rent soon, I will send it certified (so they sign) and have a letter in there with what has happened, signed with a video of me signing and putting it the envelope. That's about as legal as it gets I think, even though that is silly to me...

rainbowbob
August 13, 2008, 08:59 PM
In all seriousness he either probably went back up to his own place and did not outline that one detail in his story or its all just a fabrication.

NOTE: I have deleted the contents of this post. The OP posted a response before I posted more questions which have been rendered moot by his response.

maestro pistolero
August 13, 2008, 09:00 PM
Pepper Spray or Mace is your friend. Very effective stuff. Next time you call the cops, have your wife leave for a bit for safety.

Record the verbal threats emanating from your door, then use the recording to get a restraining order. If you ever have to shoot the knucklehead, you'll be on much better legal ground.

Also, if HE has any guns, he'll be required to surrender them while under the restraining order.

romeo212000
August 13, 2008, 09:01 PM
I think you have the wrong idea about owning a gun. The gun is to be used as a last resort and only when you feel you and your family's life is in danger. The first thing you need to do is quit this pissing contest with this guy. Stop interacting with him, it is clearly not working. He is a bully and does not listen to reason. Someone else hit the nail on the head with where you need to go from here. Everytime this guy starts acting out bug the hell out of the police and land lords. When he starts yelling when the police leave call them again, and again if necessary. Eventually either the police or more likely the land lord will do something about it. Second, I do not know the law in Pennsylavania but in many states the law says that if someone enters your home, especially in the manner which you describe you have a right to defend it with deadly force. As I said check your laws. However, be sure you have not escalated the situation by getting into a pissing contest with this guy. Also document every single incident in a journal or something. That way you have something in black and white regarding this if something ever came to pass. Be careful.

GatorDude
August 13, 2008, 09:05 PM
Movers are $50 per hour.
Lawyers are $350-$500+ per hour.
Some people are put on this Earth to test our patience as gun owners.

I have been in your situation many times and it stinks. Keep a log of every call to the police and to the rental office. Their failure to deal with this guy could be your way out of a lease.

Remember, if you confront the guy and exchange words and the situation escalates to gunplay, you could find yourself in a much worse living situation. Be careful, bide your time, and move.

jahwarrior
August 13, 2008, 09:07 PM
since you live in PA, here's my advice,as a fellow Keystoner:

1. go to your county sheriff's office (or chief of police if you're in Philly), and apply for your LTCF. it takes minutes, and won't cost more than $50.

2. go to your local gun shop, and get what you can afford. Hi Points are low cost, but effective. they're big, black, and ugly, but they work. you don't need to have your LTCF to buy a gun, only to carry it concealed. remember, any gun is better than no gun.

3. for home defense, a shotgun is always better than a handgun; many good brands, like mossberg, remington, and H&R, can be bought for less than the price of a handgun. avoid using slugs in your home. stick with buckshot.

4. PA does have Castle Doctrine. if you're in your home, or place of work, you're under no obligation to run and hide. we don't, however, have any sort of 'Stand Your Ground' type laws. if you're out and about, you're obligated to retreat, if you can.

5. if you can afford it, get some sort of video recording system, and install it somwhere you can catch this scumbag in the act.

6. stop confronting the guy. you're solving nothing by trying to out tough a tough guy. it makes you look like an idiot.

U.S.SFC_RET
August 13, 2008, 09:10 PM
Contact the owner of the apartment and explain to him that he needs to evict the offending tenant. If not evicted get a lawer that specializes in tenant issues and remove yourself from the apartment. This is a quality of life issue as well as a safety and security.
That owner/landlord is responsible to a reasonable extent by screening the tenants moving in. You have legal recourse should he try to seek to damage your credit rating by you breaking the lease and moving out.
As far as credit rating goes if he screened that bum who moved in as a neighbor of yours chances are he wouldn't have moved in. I suspect money was the motive to put him in there in the first place. The owner probably needed to fill the rent space. Get an attorney to talk to him if action is not taken. Get a lawyer if one takes the case.
My suggestion to you is to get a gun for the next apartment before buying one now. Thinking with your head should come first.

P.S BTW out of curosity did you go a little cheap on this apartment?

ilcylic
August 13, 2008, 09:19 PM
I would like to second the advice of everyone here who is urging you to move.

The big thing to remember here is, no matter what moving out of your apartment will cost you, even if this is a perfectly legally justified shoot, you're going to spend $50,000 on lawyers keeping your self out of jail. Yes, your life is worth $50,000, but this should serve as a reminder that you only want to shoot an attacker if you are truly in danger. If you have the chance to leave before your life is in danger, it will save you a lot of money.

It's not like you're being forced to move out of a house you own. Yes, it's your place, but it's just an apartment. Yes, it hurts your pride to be pushed out, I get that, but think on what the blow to your pride is worth to you in dollar figures.

Cosmoline
August 13, 2008, 09:25 PM
I don't think you should move, actually. Running from some punk on the street is one thing, but you should not be forced to leave your home because of some bully. These kind of jerks are a dime a dozen and crop up everywhere, so you might as well deal with the one you've got. Of course it's up to you. I do agree that getting in a back-and-forth argument with him is foolish. Do not even talk to him. Have nothing to do with him directly. If you're going to record something to send to your landlord, record his music playing loud and send that.

With a guy like this, warning him that you're armed is just a challenge that he feels he must respond to. Say NOTHING to him. You did right calling the cops, and it's unfortunate they were of no help. I've had much better results with my own local pd at getting rid of neighbors. I put up with pot smoke (this is AK) but crack pipes prompt me to call the cops. I don't respond to threats of vengeance or whatever. It's a lot of talk and not worth getting in an argument over. You need to think in terms of responding to ACTIONS, not words. Does he have a weapon in his hand? Is he breaking down your door? These are the important issues.

pbearperry
August 13, 2008, 09:27 PM
Every time the guy acts up break out the cam corder and document it.State the date and time.If the Police and lanlord do nothing,get an attorney .You have the right to live in peace.Hit this guy where it hurts....in the wallet.Outside of that,move to keep your sanity.

will500
August 13, 2008, 09:32 PM
...you should not be forced to leave your home because of some bully... With a guy like this, warning him that you're armed is just a challenge that he feels he must respond to.

That's what I was thinking. We'll send a letter, signed, video tapped and they will have to sign to receive.

Cosmoline
August 13, 2008, 09:36 PM
You don't need to video yourself mailing the letter. I don't know where you got that idea. But I do think you should video the music rattling the unit and ideally have the thing running if he tries to bash your door down again. Maybe the landlord will boot him. I would not threaten to sue the landlord over the violence. Don't threaten to sue people unless you really intend to. And don't threaten to sue people if you want them to act on your side and help you out.

The_Sheriff
August 13, 2008, 09:46 PM
I would get a glock, they make them in 3 sizes in most defensive calibers. They are very easy to use and have no big safety's to worry about. I would go talk with a gunshop owner (they would know) also you should take a defensive gun class or just go ahead and take your ccw class. Most gun ranges offer these services for anywhere from $50 - $200 or more for personal classes. They will tell you about self defense laws and everything that you need to know. Also DO NOT forget to join the NRA! :)
- The_Sheriff

black_powder_Rob
August 13, 2008, 09:50 PM
Yes, I agree a gun is not always the answer. That being said I would advise if you do get a gun practice with it and only use it in a worst case situation.

like the others said call the cops and apt. managers when things happen or escalate and try not responding to the man, it is hard to argue with only one person. good luck with your situation and keep us informed on what happens.

Firethorn
August 13, 2008, 10:13 PM
Given the situation, and the need for an inexpensive weapon, I'll ditto the shotgun. Worst case, it IS impressive, more so than a handgun. Note: I'm of the opinion most people should have a personal defensive weapon, so my recommendation is NOT specific to your case. Load it with some form of buckshot, given you're in a shared wall apartment complex. Buckshot, while perfectly capable of penetrating drywall, will at least stop far faster than a rifle/pistol bullet. I wouldn't even go with the classic 00. I'd consider going with #1 or 2 buckshot. If you're concerned about thin walls - even #4 Buck(not bird), has a good stopping rate. Remember: You still have to aim with a shotgun!

Make sure it's a LEGAL shotgun. Read up the self defense rules in your state.

Do NOT threaten the guy with it. The only time you'd use it is if the guy threatens your life. In many states, if he breaks down the door and steps foot inside, THEN you'd be able to shoot him in self defense, for example. Consider this a losing scenario. At the least, you're almost virtually guaranteed to spend time in jail, lose the apartment, and spend lots of money on legal fees.

Choices: Moving is a definite option, as is contacting the renting agency/building owner/cops whenever there's a problem.

Note: This is an internet forum, we have only your words to go on. We don't have details of the apartment, just how nuts the guy is, etc...

Document, Document, Document. A video recorder, even a tap recorder of him assaulting your door(I presume it's your door), is good evidence. Calling 911 when he's pounding on your door is also a good idea - it's documentation at the 911 center, and will have time and impartial witness(the 911 operator).

Heck, you might be able to gather enough to charge him criminally if he says the wrong things while door-banging.

mekender
August 13, 2008, 10:17 PM
tripwires on the stair case... claymores on the landings... flood lights on the perimeter... that should keep the zombies at bay for a while, just remember to take head shots.

oh wait, hes just a pot head, not a zombie.... in that case, call the cops often and document everything.

highlander 5
August 13, 2008, 10:23 PM
As a landlord you have my sympathy but in my opinion a firearm at this point may not be the best idea,too much temptation to use it and you could be in some serious trouble. Get a can of pepper spray and keep it handy. If this guy starts as others said call the cops and keep calling if the guy won't quit being a jackass. Keep calling the landlord and complaining,eventually the landlord WILL get tired of the phone calls,letters of complaint etc and do something even if it's wrong. I'll probably get nailed for this but I'd mention the drug use to get the landlords attention,if the guy is dealing he could possibly loose his building should it be raided.

cpttango30
August 13, 2008, 10:28 PM
I agree with the majority that a gun is not the solution to the problem.

The main question I have and no one I have seen has asked. Why are you not calling the cops as soon as he starts beating on your door? As soon as he starts that I would be on the phone with 911 standing close enough to the door so the 911 operator can hear what he is saying. That I believe would get them there much faster.

In some states it is a crime (Not sure if felony or not) to verbally threaten violence or bodily harm. Get a camcorder and record the people coming and going if their is a lot of them. Call the police every time he starts his music. Like some one else said the police will get tired of dealing with this guy and tell him one more time and your going down town.

lookn4varmints
August 13, 2008, 10:29 PM
A couple of things strike me as noteworthy here:

a) He's a doper; marijuana for sure, and a high probability of more serious mind-altering substances as well. He is potentially more dangerous than you may realize. This is evidenced by the fact that he has already tried to enter your home in order to commit additional, unforseeable crimes. He is a serious threat.

B) The presence of drugs most likely means weapons are present. It goes w/ the territory. I would NOT want to rely solely on pepper or mace to defend my home. As a former big city paramedic, I can tell you I have seen way too many instances of the ineffectiveness of pepper or mace on those under the influence. Some guys respond to pepper or mace like you just squirted them w/ CheezWhiz. This is personal, firsthand experience for me. Don't bring an aerosol can to a gun fight INSIDE your home. MANY people have a highly misplaced trust in pepper or mace. If he enters your home, be prepared for him to come armed with more than his fists.

C) As previously noted, IF you buy a firearm, keep it inside for now and defend your home with it ONLY if he enters. A shotgun with defensive loads is good advice. Don't take this personally, but my first impression of you tells me you are a long way from carrying concealed. You need to educate yourself a great deal and re-think a few critical attitudes (FLEE CONFRONTATION). You'll find plenty of help here. Again, please don't take this personally. I have no desire to hear of you being locked away for life or buried in death. Your idiot neighbor is worth neither!!!

In closing: (Something like this)

Dear Landlord,
Either you evict Mr. Roid in Apt ___ based on my previous, multiple, and documented complaints or my attorney will see to it that YOU will pay MY moving expenses and MY first months' rent at my new apartment at a minimum.

Lovingly yours,
_____________

mekender
August 13, 2008, 10:32 PM
hell in NC if he were beating on the door with enough force that you reasonably believed he was trying to make entry, it would be legal to shoot through the door to prevent him from entering.

ASM826
August 13, 2008, 10:38 PM
It may be a sorry commentary on the state of our country, but your best decision is to move. Immediately. Getting a gun is a separate decision. I think every citizen should be armed, and trained. The question raised here however, is your safety and the safety of your wife. The secondary question is what it will cost you if you use a firearm in self defense.

So move. Today if you can, and have a place to stay while you look for a new apartment. This week if you have to find a new apartment first. In the meantime, do nothing to provoke, no pounding, no confrontation. If you are attacked, well, then you do what you have to defend yourself, but avoid this person to the absolute best of your ability.

Do you want to have to shoot this person? No. Do you want to have to go to court, either criminal or civil (or both)? No. Do you want your wife to face this man when you are not around? No.

Move.

Regolith
August 13, 2008, 10:55 PM
If you do get a shotgun, don't get one with only pistol grip (like that mossberg you're looking at). Pistol grips make it difficult to aim the shotgun quickly, and the recoil can hurt your hand, which makes it difficult to practice with them. Make sure you get a shotgun with a full stock. They don't cost much more than one with a pistol grip (actually, they usually cost less).

Also, I agree with most of the posters here: If you do get a gun, only use it as a very last line of self defense. You should also check your local laws and regulations concerning firearm ownership and self defense, so you know what you can and cannot do.

vtoddball
August 13, 2008, 11:11 PM
I used to wonder why crime and poor behavior spread so rapidly. After reading the replies to this post I don't have to wonder any more.

Here a guy lives in a decent apartment building, gets along with his neighbors and then one jackass moves in and everyone's suggestion is "move." All evil needs to flourish is for good men to do nothing...or move away so it becomes someone else's problem. That works great until you run out of places to go because no one stood up to these idiots before it spread.

I'm not saying to be confrontational, but slinking away to avoid the problem isn't a solution. That attitude is what made it possible for anti-gunners to get so many laws passed hampering gun ownership. Instead of standing up for what was right, gun owners simply left CA, NY, MA, etc., leaving their stranded fellow shooters to fend for themselves. Then they act surprised when the anti-gun lobby, emboldened by the lack of resistance to the first round of laws, start drafting up even worse ones.

Just out of curiousity, what if it was a $200,000 home you owned with an obnoxious neighbor? Should you still move? $100,000? $50,000? What's the "just move" threshold? Moving to a new apartment can be just as expensive and cost prohibitive to some people, as buying/selling a house would be to others. I also think it's a little insulting to the OP's intelligence to think he has thought this through to the point where he joined a gun forum to ask for a little advice, and then assume that moving hasn't occured to him.

As an aside to the OP, keep in mind this is a gun forum. While you should take all opinions regarding firearms with a grain of salt, I'd guess a 75% accuracy rate on technical issues. When it comes to legal advice, ignore anything said on this forum and talk to a local expert. It's been my experience that many gunnies also consider themselves amateur lawyers and I think I'm being generous when I say amateur.
Just my 2 cents.

FCFC
August 13, 2008, 11:14 PM
... I do not own a gun, yet...

I am about to become a first time gun owner, though I have fired many guns of various types and understand how to fire one properly....


No one will help. He is a violent person and it has caused us to live in fear and stress. I have to watch when my wife leaves in case he flips, for instance.


I will be buying a gun to protect ourselves while living here....

What are my rights here? I live in Pennsylvania.

Which guns (type and caliber) have you fired and how long ago was it?

How old are you and wife?

Do you have any criminal arrest/conviction record?

juk
August 14, 2008, 12:23 AM
Just my .02... Next time he starts banging on your door open it. One of two things will happen.

1. he is so surprised he loses his initiative. (not likely.)
2. he hits you, you sue the piss out of him, he moves. end of story.

I too live in an apartment and have had similar instances. I'm 6'2" and 270lbs and always wore an evil grin when I opened the door. The next steps they take are 180 degrees from where they started.

CliffH
August 14, 2008, 12:37 AM
While reading the posts suggesting moving I was formulating my reply.

Vtoddball's reply was much better written than anything I can write.

I will ask though, how far and how often are you (that's a collective "you" for all you "movers" out there) willing to move?

rainbowbob
August 14, 2008, 12:41 AM
To the OP: Re-read vtoddball's post and give that man a cigar!

NG VI
August 14, 2008, 12:50 AM
a 12 gauge shotgun would be a cheap and versatile home defense gun, but I too think you should avoid confronting the punk whenever you can and keep calling calling calling the police and landlord until they do something about it, and if they don't wanna do anything about it, at least there is then a track record of you trying to get them to help the situation out if he ever does force his way into your apartment or attacks your wife.
And I don't think there is such a think as a gun that looks cute when it is aimed at you. There are lots of good police trade in guns to be found, I like CDNN personally, and they also have some great guns that are a great deal as well.

Be careful now, and don't escalate this situation to a physical confrontation. Obviously you have to keep trying to resolve the situation and if he does attack you there isn't a whole lot you can do to escape, but try to keep everything official. Maybe he'll be evicted for being a consistent nuisance.

Zundfolge
August 14, 2008, 12:51 AM
vtoddball makes several good points.

However this guy is renting an apartment, not defending his own property. Furthermore, he has a wife to protect. Her safety should be his primary concern, not his pride, not his rights, not solving the problems of the world.

Horsesense
August 14, 2008, 01:18 AM
Something I have not seen mentioned in this thread is: the OP is going to run into this guy in the parking lot or at his door sooner or later.

My suggestion is a big can of OC spray, for you and the wife, and a good folder knife. Yah yah.... get training, but be ready for some on the job training!

Get a CCP and a shotgun for the house, then get a .357 Ruger P 100 or some such. Document that you have notified the police and land lord, with certified letters, that you have been threatened. Get a restraining order.

The Land Lord is going to take the path of lea$t re$i$tance .

CliffH
August 14, 2008, 01:37 AM
However this guy is renting an apartment, not defending his own property.

I do believe that, in regards to protecting their lives, apartment and/or property, renters are afforded the same rights as home owners.

Steve Raacke
August 14, 2008, 01:41 AM
Will, As others have suggested, record things when they happen. Buy or borrow a camcorder to use. Anytime the music cranks up or you have to call management or the cops have the camera running. Make a copy of the tape/dvd and include a copy with your monthly rent and a letter to management explaining the problems are continuing. Keep a copy for your legal purposes.
One comment of yours which caught my attention was this- I'd rather not have a gun around. That is something you should really think about. Ask yourself, seriously, Do you reaaly want a gun in your home AND if you do decide to purchase a gun, and this is very important, Do You KNOW in your heart and soul that you could shoot and maybe Kill another human being? Think about it very seriously. Many people have made the mistake of buying a gun "for protection" thinking that having it would stop an agressor. Sadly, some of those same people hesitated or simply could not use deadly force when the time came and their own guns were taken from them and used against them by their attackers.
Yes, i am a gun owner and I carry one everywhere I go. But my lifestyle and mindset is probably not the same as yours. I firmly beleive that there are many people who should probably not own a gun. Among those are people, like you, who aren't comfortable with guns in the home in the first place. No offense meant. Look at it this way. I've never owned or used a chainsaw. I would not be comfortable using one unless I had lots of training on the safe use of a chainsaw by someone who knows how to use one. So I own several guns but am nervous as heck around chainsaws? Yep. I just don't know that much about them except for the few people who I know who have been injured by them. I keep thinking that they are just going to kick back and slice my face or leg off when I'm using them. So maybe, if there are people like me who are sort of nervous using chainsaws I figure there are lots of people with the same type of problem with guns. Weird but I understand.
Will, I hope you find a solution to your problem. I hope that either the guy downstairs learns to "play well with others", that your landlord moves him or that you are able to transfer to another unit. I wish you luck and keep you in my thoughts. Take care.

Zundfolge
August 14, 2008, 01:46 AM
I do believe that, in regards to protecting their lives, apartment and/or property, renters are afforded the same rights as home owners.
I wasn't addressing his legal right to self defense, I was addressing those that are suggesting that moving is a bad option merely because of "the principal of the thing".

MJRW
August 14, 2008, 01:52 AM
If you feel so threatened from a specific source that you feel a need to arm yourself against it, the wise and only reasonable decision is to put distance between you and the threat. Most of us that are gun owners are not armed against a specific threat but a general preparedness. You are not talking about general preparation. You're talking about a known threat.

I was out tonight for a walk and I encountered a very very strange fellow "stretching" with a bat. I felt threatened as he walked toward me and I warned him to keep his distance as I expanded that distance. I then made sure not to walk back that way. You need to do the equivalent of that.

On top of all of this, you've viewed guns as tools of intimidation, not lethal tools for protection. Your mindset is all off. You're not prepared mentally to do any of the things that need to be done. Frankly, in your hands, a gun is a mistake. Prepare less than lethal methods and then create distance between you and the threat.

As far as vtoddball's response...well, you're not defending Wake Island. You're a dude in an apartment with a wife, and furniture that can be put into the back of a truck. To put pride before safety against a known threat strikes me as an easy thing to armchair. Let's not make this some greater principle than it actually is.

chris in va
August 14, 2008, 02:20 AM
Cops/management don't care unless they see things for themselves. Might be prudent to get a hidden video camera or digital recorder.

I remember seeing a show on TV about a guy that was constantly getting jacked up by a 'bully' in his apartment complex. One day he got fed up and mounted a hidden video camera above his door. BG got arrested.

lookn4varmints
August 14, 2008, 02:24 AM
So I own several guns but am nervous as heck around chainsaws?

Dang, there's an idea! Get a chainsaw! One like the real lumberjacks use; powered by a motorcycle engine with a 60" cutting bar. :D

I have to agree that moving is a bit over the top when the law is in your favor. I would exhaust all of my legal options first. I'm not going to let some moron run me out of my home with illegal conduct; owner or renter. I'm guessing if he's not evicted beforehand, he'd probably get evicted soon after you left. Let him be inconvenienced w/ relocation. I'd hate for you to move, then he gets evicted and follows you to your next apt building. Would you move, again?

Keep after your landlord, the PD, and document EVERYTHING with audio and video. Your best bet is to call the PD next time you smell weed. Your phone call might help them acquire the probable cause needed to enter his apt, thus expediting the eviction process. Also, many attorneys will give you a free initial consultation, and you could probably get a big scary letter sent from your attorney to the landlord for $100, give or take.

ants
August 14, 2008, 02:31 AM
Based on your written description of the events, no prosecutor will believe that your neighbor placed your lives in eminent jeopardy. No jury will believe it either. The guys on this Forum believe in you, but we won't be on the jury. Our opinion doesn't matter.

Soon you will buy your gun, the cheapest one you can afford that isn't 'tiny'. It will be the dumbest decision of your life.

Within a few weeks you will use it to shoot your neighbor. He won't die (he won't even be charged with anything) but you will be charged with attempted murder. Then the jury will send you to jail.

With you in jail, no one will be able to protect your wife. You will leave her all alone in a dangerous world. Boy, that was pretty dumb, wasn't it?

akodo
August 14, 2008, 02:34 AM
If you go out and aggrivate a person, get them mad enough to come to your apartment and kick the door in, at which point you shoot them, you will likely be charged and convicted of murder because you 'baited' them into attacking you so you could shoot them.

It doesn't matter if that was your actual intent, by going out and starting somethign, and later finishing it with a firearm, that is how it will be treated.

Here is how you should handle the situation.

#1 MOVE

if option #1 is not financially feasable then #2 is

-Get a video camera, voice recorder, whatever. Whenever the guy is loud, start recording, and call the police. Write down the time of noise, time of call, time of arrival, time of departure. Contact the building owner and complain.

IF the guy quiets down when the cops are there, and then gets noisey again (say, in an attempt to intimidate you) begin recording and call 911 again. Contact property owner again.

NEVER bang on your floor in response. NEVER go down and confront him, and NEVER do dumb things to 'get even' like egging his car, letting air of of his tires, or hanging up posters.

This is part of the reason to be recording as well.

If you EVER have to use deadly force, you want it to be clear that YOU are the CHOIRBOY and HE is the HELLION.

Now, the ONLY time you should ever let him see the gun is if he successfully busts down your door, and which time you point the gun, scream STOP FREEZE DON'T MOVE GET DOWN or whatever. The police should already be on the way, as any banging on your door should have caused you to call them BEFORE grabbing your gun.

Now, of course, if in a roid rage he may not care, or think you are bluffing or whatever. If in the face of a firearm, he continues to advance into your home, aim for the center of his torso and shoot. Your goal is to shoot to stop the treat.

Remember that phrase

SHOOT TO STOP HIM. You aren't judge, jury, and executioner, you are simply saving your life and your wife's life. As soon as the threat is stopped, you stop.

When the police come, you say "I SHOT HIM TO STOP THE ATTACK I AM IN SHOCK I NEED MY LAWYER"

if they try and say 'talk to us first' continue to say "I AM IN SHOCK I NEED A LAWYER"


As far as what gun, a shotgun.

A shotgun is MUCH more powerful than any handgun. A shotgun is usually less expensive too.

There are two basic choices, 12 guage or 20 guage. 20 will kick less and is slightly less powerful but in the end it is more than powerful enough to get the job done. A 20 guage is more powerful than a 44 magnum revolver like dirty harry used.

On the economy end, you have two basic 'types', pump action and single shot.

Single shot is cheapest, and simplest. You can easily keep the shotgun open and under your bed, and the shells locked in a small lockbox. In emergency, open gun, insert shell, close gun, ready for use. Of course, one shot might not be great if you miss.

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=4665491

here is an example of a single shot. NEF (New England Firearms) or H&R (Harrington and Richards?) are the two main brands, and the guns sell for a little over $100


The other option is pump. Now, you do NOT want a pistol grip on the pump, even if the movies and TV says it is cool, it doesn't work in reality.

The shorter the barrel the better (makes it getting around the house easier) but that isn't a huge deal. Barrel length does nothing to performance of the gun beyond how easy it is to move around with it.

the cheapest decent pump for those on a tight budget is going to be the NEF pump shotgun
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=4665491

The other names to look at for pump shotguns at a reasonable price are

Charles Daly, Remingtion 870 Express, and Mossberg 500

All are availible in 20 guage or 12 guage, depending on which you choose.

Round this out with a few boxes of buckshot and you will have covered the 'hardware' part of the equation.

next is 'software' which is learning how to use it, when to use it, how to use it most effectively, etc, how to keep from needing to use it in the first place, etc etc etc. We can deal with that later, but just because you own a gun doesn't mean you know how to use it.

akodo
August 14, 2008, 03:02 AM
You linked a shotgun, that is BAD choice of shotguns

Besides, the 'scarier it looks' the worse it is going to look to the jury as well.

You want cheap and effective. A shorter barreled 12 guage with a decent magazine capacity is definately a good direction to go, but it will kick like a mule (which is why you need a shoulder stock)

here are some better choices, from that same website

http://personalsecurityzone.com/cgi-win/order/prodlist.exe/PSZ/?Template=ProdDetail.htm&ProductID=32858
http://personalsecurityzone.com/cgi-win/order/prodlist.exe/PSZ/?Template=ProdDetail.htm&ProductID=21757
http://personalsecurityzone.com/cgi-win/order/prodlist.exe/PSZ/?Template=ProdDetail.htm&ProductID=20492
http://personalsecurityzone.com/cgi-win/order/prodlist.exe/PSZ/?Template=ProdDetail.htm&ProductID=28415

Again, I suggest a 20 guage might be a better choice

http://personalsecurityzone.com/cgi-win/order/prodlist.exe/PSZ/?Template=ProdDetail.htm&ProductID=20890
that works if you want tactical, but don't be afraid to buy an inexpensive "sporting" model instead either

http://personalsecurityzone.com/cgi-win/order/prodlist.exe/PSZ/?Template=ProdDetail.htm&ProductID=32679

Face it, in trial, do you want the prosecutor to hold up the shotgun you have in your post, or the one right above this statement?

here are two other 'sporting' type shotguns

http://personalsecurityzone.com/cgi-win/order/prodlist.exe/PSZ/?Template=ProdDetail.htm&ProductID=32774
http://personalsecurityzone.com/cgi-win/order/prodlist.exe/PSZ/?Template=ProdDetail.htm&ProductID=30115

if times are real tight a single shot may be all you can afford

http://personalsecurityzone.com/cgi-win/order/prodlist.exe/PSZ/?Template=ProdDetail.htm&ProductID=27820


watch this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhgwHQCJwWw

don't be like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhwGMQSH2Ns&feature=related

bogie
August 14, 2008, 03:22 AM
Guns are not the answer to every problem.

And while they are an answer to some, they should be the LAST answer.

Keep after the landlord. Either the guy goes (and call the cops instead of banging on the floor), or they relocate you.

It'd probably be a good idea to pick up a mossberg down at your local Wal-Mart. Get a 20 gauge or 12 gauge, and some of the Winchester AA trap loads.

Now... This is NOT to brandish to scare him. This is not to threaten him with. This is to use if he breaks down the door (you do NOT open it. In fact you are on the phone to the 911 operator).

Okay?

The AA trap shells will turn whatever's inside 15-20' into hamburger, but they won't go through walls.

And don't get the bright idea of shooting the door to scare the fellow. In fact, keep your booger-hook off the trigger if you're even -thinking- about scaring him with the boomstick. That's not what it's there for.

Scaring the guy will get YOU a ticket to jail.

CRITGIT
August 14, 2008, 03:33 AM
Our opinion doesn't matter.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Based on your written description of the events, no prosecutor will believe that your neighbor placed your lives in eminent jeopardy. No jury will believe it either. The guys on this Forum believe in you, but we won't be on the jury. Our opinion doesn't matter.

Soon you will buy your gun, the cheapest one you can afford that isn't 'tiny'. It will be the dumbest decision of your life.

Within a few weeks you will use it to shoot your neighbor. He won't die (he won't even be charged with anything) but you will be charged with attempted murder. Then the jury will send you to jail.

With you in jail, no one will be able to protect your wife. You will leave her all alone in a dangerous world. Boy, that was pretty dumb, wasn't it?



There's your answer!
Stay away from the guy
Stay away from the gun.
No offense but if ya don't you'll buy more than you ever bargained for!

CRITGIT

Run&Shoot
August 14, 2008, 03:38 AM
I was in a similar situation many years ago, except the neighbors were just generally loud and violent with each other and not a specific threat to us. I went to the manager and told him the situation.

I pointed out to him that we paid our rent on time every month and would like to remain there for the foreseeable future. On the other hand the rowdies were a bother to everyone, would likely destroy his property, and at their current rate of misbehavior they will likely be arrested or otherwise foced out in a short time anyway.

Basically, you'll make a lot more money keeping us here than them. I then explained that the current situation was totally unacceptable to us an allow a great inconvenience we would be moving in 48 hours unless they were kicked out instead. I then offered to help document everything or otherwise assist in any reasonable way to get them booted.

The manager thought about it, said other neigbors had already complained. he asked me to summarize the problems in a brief letter to him and he would do what he could.

Not surprisingly, the rowdies were at it again that very night throwing furniture out their 2nd floor windows. They were gone in 24 hours. Problem solved.

If at all possible you should consider moving. I say consider moving because you are already in a nice apartment and have this problem. Moving does not guarantee you won't run into a similar or worse situation. Either the manager should boot this guy or you should move if possible. If the LEOs and manager are not helping you then you are not in a very nice location regardless of the furnishings. If you move, plan to move to another LEO district (from city to county or vice versa, or another city or county).

If the threat is not removed and you cannot afford to move then you have do what you can to protect your family.

You have gotten a lot of other good advice. I would definitely talk to the police to see if I could file an official complaint or restraining order based on being in fear of grave bodily harm or death. Ask them what your options are when he is beating on your door screaming threats at you.

And I would buy a gun and take a CCW course (often available for $35 or so). Know exactly under what conditions you are justified in shooting an which conditions are prohibited from shooting in PA. Give this situation to your CCW instructor (take a course from a LEO or retired LEO if possible) and ask for their advice or referral to a LEO or lawyer that can advise you. Many lawyers will give you a free 30 minute consultation; just be sure to write up the situation and you questions very clearly so as to not waste the lawyers free time.

Once you know exactly what you can and cannot do, then do lots of scenario playing to carefully think through a few of the most likely threat situations. Practice imagining yourself acting exactly correctly in each situation until it is burned into your mind. This is not a vague, generalized threat but a very specific one with known conditions and observed specific behaviors.

I agree with the many others that have advised to not have ANY direct contact with this nut. Don't try to figure out why he acts that way, or what you can say to him except for your own protection. Call the police if he is a public nuisance or threatens your family in any manner. Call the manager/owner the right after calling the police, any hour of the night to alert them to the problem and that the police have been called.

If you can record him on video or at least audio then record his pounding on the door and his screaming at you through the door. Keep a journal of his threatening activities. Different states have different self defense laws but I would think that if the door starts giving way you are justified to be in fear of your life or serious bodily harm, especially if he is significantly larger and more muscular than you. Be sure and get clarification from an expert.

And of course, practice with your gun whatever you get so that you can confidently operate it under high stress adn in low light. The last thing you want to do is fumble with a safety or other levers, etc. A shotgun usually has a safety and a light trigger pull. you may want to keep it stored with rounds in the magazine but nothing in the chamber, with the safety OFF. If you need to bring it to bear then rack a round into the chamber and keep your finger off the trigger until you are needing to shoot. Other options are a revolver, like a .357 4" or 6" barrel, or a pistol with no safety levers or decockers such as a Glock or Springfield XD. Keep it as simple to operate as possible and practice lots with it live fire.

CWL
August 14, 2008, 03:52 AM
Here are my observations:

1. If he really was a 'roid rage' monster, he can easily kick-in your apartment door if he really wanted to get at you. He doesn't.
2. If he really was a violent guy, he could have jumped you or your wife anytime when you are outside of your apt. He hasn't.
3. If you do threaten him with a gun, either real or not, he could call the police and file charges against you for brandishing/menacing, you'll probably get arrested and prosecuted. He could then successfully file a restraining order against you and your wife.

This just sounds like both of you have bruised egos and can't back down -doesn't really seem like this guy is hunting for you -he's just an A-hole.

Your real options:
1. Stop confronting the guy.
2. Document every time you hear noise, get threatened, call the police and call the management/landlord to complain. Spend $200-250 to have an attorney document this in a letter to your landlord with reminder of legal liabilities if anything happens.
3. Purchase a firearm (I recommend a standard 12ga shotgun & keep it loaded, nothing fancy that looks like you are itchin' to kill him). Never brandish it, don't even let him know you have it. If he actually breaks into your apt. use it, repeat if necessary.
4. Move.

Nobody wins in this type of situation. Go elsewhere with your wife and enjoy the peace.

Powderman
August 14, 2008, 04:01 AM
There is good advice in this thread--and some bad. I will not point out the bad ones, but I will emphasize the good ones, as well as attempt to point you in the right direction.

1. Do NOT contact this guy again---other than mutual, friendly contact. This means a "Good morning" in passing, or something similar.

2. You described earlier an incident where the guy was pounding on your door, and trying the knob. This is known as "violent and tumultuous entry". You stated that you had a gun pointed at the door, and stated that the BG left.

Some folks here voiced an exception to that. I will tell you that if I were the responding officer, you would not have been in ANY hot water over that.

So, what do you do?

a. If you are in fear of your life, bodily harm, or the same occurring to one of your family members, ensure that you are documenting each and EVERY one of your complaints. Make sure that these documented complaints are in a safe, secure location, and kept in chronological order.

b. If the problem persists, contact your local Court about orders of restraint and protection. Have them served, if necessary. When you file one of these, you will (upon proper and adequate articulation of the facts) be awarded an ex parte order that's good for 14 days. You will be scheduled for a Court date to show cause why the order should be extended or made permanent.

c. Video and audio evidence is always good. If you get something, ensure that you get a good system to record what is going on. I would probably consider an enclosure if you mount the camera in the open--other than that, there are a number of cameras and CCTV systems that you can get that are hidden from sight. Make sure that it is in good repair, and is recording properly at all times. Date and archive your video storage.

d. Here's an important thought--the errornet is the wrong place to ask for legal advice for the use of deadly force. For example, if you were in the State of Washington I could expound a bit on it--but the best advice I can give is to consult your local Prosecutor's office. Why? Because THIS is the person you will face in the event of a self defense shooting.

e. If you seriously believe that you--or your loved ones--will have to use deadly force, put an attorney on retainer. Follow their advice implicitly--that's why they are paid the big bucks.

f. Seek competent instruction in the use of firearms.
g. Finally, I recommend some reading. There is a book called In the Gravest Extreme, by Massad Ayoob. This is the definitive work about shooting to save your life. It covers well the steps leading up to the shooting--but more importantly, it covers what happens AFTER the trigger is pulled.

Good luck and God bless.

Glockman17366
August 14, 2008, 04:18 AM
Of course, we're only getting the OP's side of the story...

First thing is you must complain to the landlord. If the music is as loud as you say it is, he's probably violating his lease. Also, others have probably complained as well.
So, let the landlord handle it. If the landlord does not handle it, he or she is breaking the lease. You have legal options then.

If you feel you need a firearm for protection, by all means get one. Just remember loud music and even him pounding on your door isn't an immediate threat. Breaking your door down is a threat.
But if you do shoot, your life will be severely impacted for months or years....even if you rightly defended yourself.

Where in PA?

JWarren
August 14, 2008, 07:49 AM
I've been in similar situations over my years of wonderful apartment living. It is the reason I live in the middle of the woods now.

I won't say that I haven't approached a neighbor that is disrupting others. I have. When you have to be up at 5:30 AM to go to work, and a guy is living it up and jamming music at 3:00 AM, you have to do something.

And as pointed out, calling the police in such situations rarely creates resolution. Moreover, if it becomes an ordeal where you have to make statements at 3:00 AM, you may as well start making a pot of coffee. You won't be going back to sleep before work.

So I do understand trying to deal with the sitution as men were ment to-- one to one.

But as clearly pointed out here, that isn't really an option with some people.

Because of this, I like the idea of putting pressure on the management/owner and documenting the incidents. I like the idea of creating an official log of what is going on with the LEO's.

And I like the idea of protecting one's self from this guy. I would not say only keep it in the house if you are truly worried about being assaulted. I've seen situations where a person was caught on the way to his car in the parking lot. But you really need to re-think your mentality about what a gun can do for you.

The absolute best solution is to move but that isn't an option for you. I look at apartments as "throw-away" homes. If the scenerio changes, I get a change of scenery. Not worth fighting a battle for something I have no vested interest in. If that owner wants that kind of community, more power to him. Many owners would appreciate a calm, quiet tenant.

But that's just me.



On a side note, I can't believe this hasn't been questioned:


The presence of drugs most likely means weapons are present. It goes w/ the territory.


I am not at all certain that this is as much of the case as you are suggesting. As an old frat boy, I can tell you that I knew a LOT of casual drug users that had no firearms.

I think you may be buying into a stereotype of "thug" life. I don't get that vibe here. I get more of a drunk frat boy jock vibe. The ones I knew like that were too stupid to go get a gun or know how to use it. I know... I called a few of them "brothers" for a few years.


However, firearms COULD be present. I never make predictions about anyone else's firearms ownership. If they are a threat to me, I MUST believe that they have the means to carry through with that threat. Its not my business to guess.



-- John

PhilA
August 14, 2008, 08:17 AM
"4. PA does have Castle Doctrine. if you're in your home, or place of work, you're under no obligation to run and hide. we don't, however, have any sort of 'Stand Your Ground' type laws. if you're out and about, you're obligated to retreat, if you can."

Jahwarrior--this is misinformation. PA has no such law on the books. It's been PROPOSED, but no legislation has yet been passed.

Happiness Is A Warm Gun
August 14, 2008, 08:50 AM
NON-GUN ADVICE
1) Stop confronting him! Stop talking to him period. Don't even say hi or hello. Don't make comments about him to other people. Don't "rant & rave" about him to your wife. Removing him from your life.

2) Get a tape recorder. The digital ones are cheap and can hold 100 hours. Keep it near front door. If he every comes to your door banging on door and threatening you it will be caught on tape. File a complaint, show them the recording, and if you felt your life was in danger let them know.

3) Call landlord and police EVERY SINGLE time he does something wrong. Illegal drugs, threatening, loud music. Document EVERY SINGLE time. Get copies of any documentation.

4) If necessary get a lawyer to write up a summary w/ supporting documents for police & landlord advising of this ongoing menace.

5) If necessary see about a protective order.

GUN ADVICE
Get a shotgun. Forget a handgun right now. I hope you don't take this wrong way but you seem very upset,
very angry. A handgun you can slip into a pocket when confronting the guy (see #1 above). Handgun + Angry + Confrontation = a lapse in judgement you will regret.

Simple plain jain 12 guage is an amazing home defense weapon.
Notice I said "home defense" weapon not "teach the BG a lesson", not "if I scare him good once he will stop", not "I can't let it go this time so I am going to put this in his face" weapon.

I don't know the layout of your apartment but I would keep it near front door when you are awake and beside the bed when you are asleep. Get into a pattern/schedule and it will be second nature.

Know Jeff Coopers 4 rules of gun safety (not just kinda know them, KNOW THEM).
http://www.thefiringline.com/Misc/safetyrules.html
Nice way to get kicked out of your lease (or worse) is to make a 12 guage hole in the floor, ceiling, or walls by a negligent discharge.

Load the shotgun with #0 buckshot. Birdshot is for shooting birds. If you are involved in a home invasion with quail you will be covered. Against anything else you will have no stopping power.

Ask gunshop for some instructions on the weapon. Every weapon is different. Just because you shot "a gun" doesn't mean you shot "this gun".

In a conforntation:
Don't LEAVE YOUR HOME if he threatens you.
DON"T OPEN THE DOOR.
CALL 911.
GET SHOTGUN AND WAIT W/ CLEAR LINE OF SIGHT TO DOOR.
IF HE BREAKS INTO HOUSE, AIM & FIRE CENTER MASS.

Don't try no "hollywood crap" like shooting him in leg, or shooting the floor to scare him.
aim CENTER MASS (upper chest in a full exposed target). Pull trigger.

Afterwards:
Remember "I shot to stop him", "I felt my life was in danger", "I was protecting my family"
NOT
"He deserved it", "I killed him", "he has been harrassing me for weeks","He was a bad guy".

Only give brief statement to police. Let them know you are shaken and would like to continue later.
Something like "He broke the door. I felt my life was in danger. I shot him to stop him from hurting me. I am very distraught and would like to talk later after I have calmed down".

Get a lawyer, don't talk w/ police ANYMORE without your lawyer.

coyotehitman
August 14, 2008, 08:58 AM
I read only the OP and I am not familiar with PA law.

Under Ohio law (and you should have similar recourse available to you), I would contact the police, file a menacing report, contact a victim advocate and request a protection order, present said protection order to the apartment manager, tell him that you are scared for your safety and ask whether the offender will be evicted or whether you will have to move to keep in compliance with the protection order. I think your problem will get solved.

ilbob
August 14, 2008, 09:03 AM
This may not be the most palatable solution, but probably you are best off moving.

bigfatdave
August 14, 2008, 09:18 AM
I'm no expert, but I am a pro at apartment living, and most of that with the "less classy" grade of neighbors.

Here is what I would do in your situation
#1 - Be more valuable to your landlord than your offensive neighbor [Simply put, if your rent checks are late or bouncy, the landlord really doesn't care. Don't take it personally.]
#2 - Document, complain, document, get police involved, and document [If you call police, be polite to them and apologize for dragging them into it. Thank them and offer a pop / coffee if they ask to enter your apartment]
#3 - BEAR SPRAY! (http://personalsecurityzone.com/cgi-win/order/prodlist.exe/PSZ/?Template=ProdDetail.htm&ProductID=34007) brand unimportant, but similar. [I suggest the bear spray from your description of the layout here. You seem to describe a stairwell that the attacker must come up to enter your apartment after kicking in the door. You want to be at the top while he climbs to you, if that day ever arrives]
#4 - Shotgun 12 or 20 gauge, load with something appropriate after you think about what is through the walls & floor. Lots of correct things have been said about a firearm being a last resort, and shooting to stop. That being said, get a hunting-style shotgun. As you shop, imagine your shotgun being presented to the worst case ignorant anti-gun jury. Do you want an "evil black SWAT gun" or something that resembles grand-dad's duck gun? Both make nice holes in things you can't reach, so get the less scary-looking gun. Trust me, anything [other than a paintball marker] is plenty scary when you are looking at the business end. Even a .22 plinker is mighty scary when someone sweeps you with the muzzle unintentionally.
#4b - practice with your new shotgun by using it for sporting purposes. Don't present it to a judge & jury as "my home defense gun" ... present it as "my duck/deer/clay/trap/target shotgun" ... and "gee, I'm sure glad I didn't come to the light birdshot first in the panic!"
#5 - get this jerk evicted, enjoy your new shotgun for sporting purposes, and have the best revenge ... living well

====
Now a general note:
I see a lot of references to "your wife", "a wife", etc etc.
Shouldn't we be getting HER involved and empowered? Even if it is limited to "Honey, call the police and get the recorder" or "OK, you use the bear spray while MrRoid climbs the stairs, and get the hell out of the way when you hear the shotgun pump".
I have learned in my marriage that working as a husband & wife team is far more than 200% effective when compared to working on your own. I assume Mrs.will500 is as interested in the safety of her family as will500 is. That is possibly the best reason to go for the 20 gauge, as it may be HER needing to defend herself alone, or HER defending you after MrRoid puts you on the ground. That is one reason that, whenever possible, MrsBFD and I don't purchase any tools [including firearms] only one of us can use. If it isn't clothing or personal hygiene, in our house most everything is communal, including firearms, tools, cars, or electronics.

HoosierQ
August 14, 2008, 09:30 AM
Shooting someone is you LAST RESORT. RKBA, castle laws and whatnot are about your rights, not always the wise option given the specific situation.

You do have the right to KBA. You do have the right to defend yourself. But...

Do not buy or use a gun to "straighten this guy out". It won't work and you'll either end up dead or in jail. That kind of tactic is for gangsters.

If this guy presents a direct threat to you or you family, at a specific moment in time...like he's just broken down your door and he's coming at you...you can defend yourself. Now if you have whipped they guy into a frenzy prior to him breaking down your door, It wouldn't be murder but...

A gun is for protecting your family, not fixing broken neighbors. Do not point a gun at this guy or anybody unless they have a gun and are pointing it at you and don't just point...you're going to have to shoot.

So if this guy is not a direct threat to your physical well being, a gun is not the answer.

Caliban
August 14, 2008, 09:57 AM
After reading your post, I am uncertain if you are a troll, or just uninformed about firearms laws.

from mall ninja to apartment complex ninja

i think he should tape three plates of armor to his back in case the violent neighbor tries to take him out with multiple long-range shots of 338 lapua

bogie
August 14, 2008, 10:01 AM
Oh yeah...

One of the very first things that one learns when entering a primate research facility is "don't make eye contact."

He's probably a Big Dumb Guy, and he wants everyone to acknowledge that he's the alpha male. You have probably unwittingly usurped his idea of his personal power.

Stay the hell away from him. Monkeys sling all kindsa stuff when they get hacked off.

Call the cops. Call the cops. Call the cops.

Call the landlord. Call the landlord. Call the landlord.

Norinco982lover
August 14, 2008, 10:05 AM
I live in an apartment similar to the OP although my situation is a little bit different as myself and my wife tend to be much louder than our neighbors because we'll be up to midnight most nights playing guitar hero or watching a movie/hanging with friends eating cookies and drinking ice tea (sweet ftw). One of our downstairs neighbors works 7 days a week 72 hours a week and goes to bed at 8pm and gets up at 4am to go to work everyday. Our neighbor has told us we are too loud several times but the fact is we cannot just shut down our lives after 8pm everynight just because they can hear us. We try to be as considerate as we can but there is only so much we can do. (they also have a basement below us so they could always adjust their lives and go down there I suppose.)

If i were in your situation I would strongly consider moving. Even a busy person can move the stuff out of their house just a carload every weekend. Also consider this... if you were to have a "big" confrontation with him and someone got hurt or the "bully" neighbor got arrested or sent to prison because of it I would not feel safe when he got out of jail no matter where I was living. But if you have to get a gun....the Norinco 982 is an excellent, affordable choice:D

Grey_Mana
August 14, 2008, 10:09 AM
My 2 cents:
Get training asap. Most places that sell guns can at least point you in the right direction, if they don't offer training themselves. NRA basic pistol, NRA home defense, tactical shotgun. Hunter safety if that is scheduled first.

When you buy the gun, the seller should show you how to take it apart and clean it. If he is busy, be assertive. If he doesn't know / does a bad job, buy somewhere else.

A door security bar (http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=202346-382-265DCCSEN&lpage=none) is a good idea if you're worried about your apartment door geting kicked in.

When you call the cops, if you are just making a noise complaint, use the non-emergency number and tell them it's a noise complaint. Usually that gets a lower priority. On a busy night, you don't want your call stuck in the middle of a list of disturbances/disorderly conduct / fight outside a bar; the cop dealing with all that isn't going to have time to write ticket for noise. You want the cop on lighter duty (or possbily a non-cop administrator, depending on where you live), who is assigned to noise complaints / grass too high duty.

Grey_Mana
August 14, 2008, 10:30 AM
I forgot to mention, each time the cops would leave, the guy would scream at our door and up at the ceiling to intimidate us.

Yep, that happens. Quite a few years ago I had a similar experience. You probably need to call the cops again and explain the situation. Be polite, respectful, sober, patient, clear and consise when dealing with the police and usually they will solve the situation. In my case, the third time the police came out that night, the guy was belligerent enough to throw a beer bottle at the squad car.

If you don't have the cash for a video recorder, tape recorders are quite cheap. Get extra tapes, so you can let the cops take it with them if they want it as evidence. Set it by your front door, let it record 90 minutes or 120 minutes or whatever it is so you don't have to worry about it/miss turning it on.

I'd also advise writing a letter (polite, clear, consise) to the police chief, explaining your situation and asking for advice on when to call/not call the police, and what you can do. The response you get back is likely to be more useful & specific than web advice. Also, letting him know your situation might increase the knowledge base the officers are working from, when they come out.

If you are doing something stupid and aren't aware of it, the chief might be able to point that out to you. (In my particular case, I needed to be at the lab really early each morning, and my headlights were shining into the guy's bedroom and waking him up as I pulled out. I had no idea that was part of the problem. Easy enough to park in a different space and wait to turn the headlights on). The cops can talk to the guy in a way you can't, and they'll learn if he has some specific beef with you or if it is a general attitude problem.

just carl
August 14, 2008, 11:16 AM
Guess I'll throw in my 2 cents too. Don't know what it's like in PA, but there is a chance you may want to try something a little different. Of course this depends on who you know, where you hang around, etc. If you go to rather not the best areas of a city, you may meet some not to nice individuals. If you ask around I'm sure someone you know or work with has such connections. They usually can be hired for a really cheap price and they could do a lot more to solve your problem in a way that would really work. Usually a threat from someone that appears to look like they mean it has a lot of results. Just the Chicago method.

Seenterman
August 14, 2008, 11:55 AM
Doc2005 obviously has never lived in an Apartment. Maybe him saying what the hell is going on wasn't the best choice of words but its common to go down to your neighboors if there annoying you, calling the cops is usually the last resort. Your comments in itself seemed trollish and pompus. Im sure you knew everything the moment you signed up to the forum with no education from anyone. Dont berate newbs, try to inform them in a non hostile way. Accusing them of being trolls or ignorant isnt the best choice of words as "What the hells going on?" isnt the best choice of words.

mbt2001
August 14, 2008, 12:03 PM
Keep reporting him to the police, mount a camera system if you can, document this idiots nutcase behavior if you can as well... Also get some pepper spray. A few big cans of the really nasty pepper spray.

The most documented wins

Rugerlvr
August 14, 2008, 12:09 PM
Happiness Is a Warm Gun is right on the money.

vtoddball
August 14, 2008, 12:09 PM
Furthermore, he has a wife to protect. Her safety should be his primary concern, not his pride, not his rights, not solving the problems of the world.

While my main argument was based on principle, my ancillary argument was based on practicality. That moving whenever you had an obnoxious neighbor wasn't realistic. What if he encountered a similar neighbor at the next place? Or the next? Managing the safety of oneself or one's family consists of balancing risks and costs. You may suffer the expense of a move and end up no better off safety wise. Obviously, in the OP's risk/reward tables, moving is not an option and I have no option but to take his word for it.

And while I in no way expect and/or suggest he is/be responsible for anyone else's safety, what about the little old lady next door? She's likely more susceptible to intimidation than the OP. If he left that means she'll bear the brunt of this jerk's behaviour and I bet she has less resources to find a new place than the OP does. That's not really the OP's problem, but I would argue that the fact that we're so reluctant to stand together with our decent neighbors, emboldens the bad ones to sully our lives and neighborhoods.

scurtis_34471
August 14, 2008, 12:18 PM
I bet a face full of pepper spray would change the a-hole's demeanor.

Rugerlvr
August 14, 2008, 12:35 PM
I bet a face full of pepper spray would change the a-hole's demeanor.

From simple rage to homicidal rage?

I recommend against this.

bowl443
August 14, 2008, 01:04 PM
Has he ever verbally threatened your wife?

You mentioned he said something to you, but what about the wife?

Also, take some self-defense classes (karate, judo, etc...) and hit the gym with cardio and/or weights.

A little self confidence could go a long way to handling this situation with a clearer mind.

I also think any kind of pepper spray or mase is a bad idea. Call the cops next time, and if he starts beating on the door, stay on the phone with 911 and pray he doesn't actually make it thru the door, because if he does, it will get ugly,,, one way or the other.

Scattergun Bob
August 14, 2008, 01:11 PM
Sorry for your problem,

My best advice is to pack-up and move. Do it right now find another place.

After reading your story I do not thing a gun is the answer, I think evading this guy is the answer.

Hold your land lord responsible, file a small claims suite, call in to the NARC unit of the local police and talk about drugs. Contact legal aid and see what else you can do.

So,

1st Stop confronting this guy, you will lose at some point.

2nd Hold your landlord and the police accountable.

3rd MOVE, start right now.

The general rule of law for self-defense is

A predator must have or reasonably appear to have:

the ability to inflict serious bodily harm or death upon me. (He is armed)

the opportunity to inflict serious bodily harm. (distance, body type, position)

his intent indicates that he means to inflict serious bodily harm or death upon me. (mere words are not enough).

To use self defense as a relief from criminal jeopardy you must not be viewed as a mutual combatant, by your story YOU are, and buying a gun would simple add another link in the chain of criminality.

Sorry, I know this is not what you wanted to read.

Good Luck & Be Safe

jtj
August 14, 2008, 01:24 PM
Find out if PA has what is referred to as a "constructive eviction", i.e. you can evict yourself for cause such as you describe. If so you may by state law recoup expenses from your apartment complex. Contact a lawyer now and start documenting, video taping and audio taping everything. I beg you not to confront this bully with a firearm after contacting a forum. Just read what you have read back in court when and if you sit there.

rainbowbob
August 14, 2008, 01:29 PM
vtoddball said...in the OP's risk/reward tables, moving is not an option and I have no option but to take his word for it.

And yet that piece of advice continues to be the most frequently offered here.

Move every time you encounter a jerk neighbor? I truly wonder how many times the posters offering that sage advice have moved themselves?

Simply save up two months rent and a damage deposit (let's say $2,000) while keeping your rent and all your other bills current with your $12/hr job, pack everything, find all your friends that love to move furniture, hump it all out of there and into the new place, and - Voila! - problem solved!

Yeah, right...

Happiness Is A Warm Gun
August 14, 2008, 01:39 PM
And yet that piece of advice continues to be the most frequently offered here.

Move every time you encounter a jerk neighbor? I truly wonder how many times the posters offering that sage advice have moved themselves?

Simply save up two months rent and a damage deposit (let's say $2,000) while keeping your rent and all your other bills current with your $12/hr job, pack everything, find all your friends that love to move furniture, hump it all out of there and into the new place, and - Voila! - problem solved!

Yeah, right...

Exactly I don't get this line of thinking at all.
What happens if the next place has another bully/jerk/nut/crazy?
What about the next?
What about the next?

Eventually landlords will simply NOT rent to you period. I own a rental property and research renters rent history. Someone who moves 2-3 times in a year or two is a liability. I simply won't rent to them. Being a landlord is a business and everyone time a renter leaves it cost money. Renters not staying more than 2 years generally are a waste of time/money/resources.

The same people advocating that the OP run likely are the ones lamenting how "[insert neighborhood] use to be a good area 10 years ago".

gregormeister
August 14, 2008, 01:44 PM
OK will I didn't read many other posts due to time crunch but... In PA you need to go to the County Sherriffs office or the County Courthouse and apply for your concealed weapons permit...

As for a hand gun I ain't too sure thats a good Idea at this moment..you live in an appartment, say you get a first time gun owners permit and blast holes through the door!! Then you are risking injury to others in the apartment...

Sounds like this guy is a physical type...Take classes on firearm handling and safety..look around some rod and gun clubs in PA offer this...In the mean time buy a decent taser and if Mr. Physical is in his mood and catches you outside the apartment, chances are he will try and push or shove you at the start of confrontation....and let me tell you a taser will teach him a better lesson then a loaded handgun...Remember the use of a handgun is the last resort option....just because he pounds on the door doesn't give you the right to kill him..chances are he is unarmed and outside which means you get a murder charge.

bogie
August 14, 2008, 02:09 PM
Using a taser to "scare" someone is also a good way to go to jail.

Stay away from the fellow.

Retreat.

Retreat.

Retreat.

And if he strikes you, or threatens you in front of witnesses, he'll be the one going to jail.

FWIW, I suspect that there are a LOT of dead men out there whose girlfriends thought that they'd "scare" them with the little purse pistol they had... .25s will kill a man dead too...

ilbob
August 14, 2008, 03:35 PM
If standing up to this kind of idiot is such a good idea, why not just shoot him in the back some night in the parking lot?

It seems to me the OP has two choices. He can cut his losses, or he can stick it out. I suppose a big part of the choice is based on whether he really wants to live in the place otherwise. Some people do not have a lot of choices for various reasons and either can't move, or would find it very inconvenient.

It appears from reading the OP that the OP may have contributed to the situation. Perhaps not deliberately, but he has not really helped himself. If he plans to stick it out, a heart to heart with the landlord (that probably is not the on-site manager if any) is in order first.

Its tough to suggest a course of action when only one side of the situation is being described. I am not suggesting the OP is the BG in this, but if the cops came and refused to do anything as he claimed, I suspect there is a little more to the story than is being admitted. And if that is the case, than any advice given is likely to be at least somewhat off base.

rondog
August 14, 2008, 03:40 PM
Tell the cops you think there might be a meth lab there. That should get their attention.

ilbob
August 14, 2008, 03:50 PM
Tell the cops you think there might be a meth lab there. That should get their attention.
I think the cops might want to have a serious chat with you after they found no meth lab.

DigitalWarrior
August 14, 2008, 04:02 PM
You said you cannot move financially. I would advise you to look at that again and try to figure it out. However, if it still seems you cannot leave...

I would try to work it out with the guy, but if you do not think it would be possible to call him to ask him to turn it down...

Get a lawyer. Lawyers are the most destructive weapons on earth. I call my mine an "assault lawyer" because he has the shoulder thing that flips up. However, if you cannot get a lawyer (and I cannot imagine how you would not be able to afford a lawyer when you could buy gun(s))...

Buy a simple single or double barrel shotgun. Buy a makarov pistol. Get CHL. Call cops and owner next time you hear loud music after that has been completed. lather rinse repeat. If the man starts hurling abuse, call cops and owner. If the man starts to break in, call cops and owner. If the man breaks in, STOP HIM. At no point should you have said anything to him. No "I have a gun" or "I am calling the cops" or "you are a %#@$@#@". Do not pump the slide of a shotgun to scare him off.

If you warn someone that you have a gun, they will immediately remember the first rule of a gunfight. They may even remember the second.

:wq

maestro pistolero
August 14, 2008, 04:07 PM
I would not move. The world is full of A-Holes, there's no getting away from them completely.

warning:shouting about to commence:

DO GET A GUN. DON'T THREATEN HIM. DO NOT CONFRONT.

DO GET A DIGITAL VOICE RECORDER ($25 and up at Radio Shack)OR USE WHAT YOU MAY HAVE ALREADY. KEEP FRESH BATTERIES IN IT.

NEXT TIME THERE IS POT SMOKE OR LOUD MUSIC, CALL THE POLICE AGAIN.

AFTER THE POLICE LEAVE:

RECORD THE VERBAL BARRAGE OF THREATS AND BANGING AT YOUR DOOR.

THEN CALL THE POLICE BACK AND PLAY IT FOR THEM.

PRESS CHARGES.

GET A RESTRAINING ORDER.

IF HE COMES IN YOUR HOUSE AGAINST YOUR WILL, PEPPER SPRAY HIM IN THE FACE AND BEAT HIM LIKE RED-HEADED STEP-CHILD, OR SHOOT HIM IF ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY.

Shouting over.

If he starts trying to kick in your door, maybe let your wife hold the pepper spray and you hold the gun. Either way, it isn't going to go well for this bully if he kicks in your door. Maybe even keep a bat handy in case a few good whacks is necessary after the OC spray, and prior to having to shoot him.

DigitalWarrior
August 14, 2008, 04:13 PM
maestro pistolero: that would be illegal in my state, don't know about PA. Recording voice without consent here is illegal.

SFvet
August 14, 2008, 04:15 PM
Call law enforcement - thats what they get paid the big bucks for lol. Other than that get yourself a good folder knife and/or OC spray like forementioned. I dont believe you should use a situation like this to justify purchasing a firearm. Now on the other hand - if you want to protect yourself from a "real threat" - by all means....

bogie
August 14, 2008, 04:20 PM
A short muse on the concept of being armed...

Here's the concept: You are a lowlife. You are a scumbag. You are lower than whalebleep. Your mama, and the rest of your family, well, they're worse.

Oh yeah... you're a coward too. Take that!

And you're pretty much okay with that. After all, the fellow who is telling you all this doesn't know you, your mama, or the rest of your family. And they know nothing about the status of your bravery card... So it just doesn't matter. They're just trying to manipulate a situation, and get you to do something.

So own the situation yourself.

And you smile, and walk on. Because when you take responsibility for your safety by becoming an armed citizen, you also have to give a pass to fighting for honor.

Sticks and stones can break your bones, and may be met with lethal force.

Names and bluster, however, will never hurt you, and you should walk away. Because if you respond to the words and bluster with even a perceived threat of lethal force, you just escalated the situation, and YOU are at fault.

When you own and/or carry a gun, you MUST be the levelheaded fellow. That is NOT an option. Just smile, and consider that the guy who is getting in your face is eventually going to pick on someone a LOT dumber than you are.

MT GUNNY
August 14, 2008, 04:36 PM
Maestro Pistolero said +1

Most people just cant move on a whim, Final months rent + security deposit +1st and Last?

In most instances half a months rent will get you a nice Firearm!

Record any thing you want in your own home!

meef
August 14, 2008, 04:42 PM
Okay, here what you should do in just 30 easy steps......

1. Stop confronting him.

2. Buy a handgun.

3. Buy a rifle.

4. Buy a shot gun.

5. Get yourself some mace, pepper spray, etc.

6. Get a baseball bat.

7. Buy a tricky door jamb.

8. Take some karate classes.

9. Buy a video or audio or whatever recorder and record every nasty thing he says/does.

10. Call the cops every time he messes with you.

11. Call your landlord every time he messes with you.

12. Check your local laws on the legal self defense options available to you.

13. Rack your shotgun a lot (Clack-Clack! always scares the hell out of them) when he's making noise.

14. Shoot him if he comes through your door after breaking it down. Then mace/pepper spray him and commence to wail on him with the baseball bat.

15. Buy a taser.

16. Don't use your taser because you'll get in trouble.

17. Don't threaten to shoot him through the door because you'll get in trouble.

18. Get a lawyer to mess with him.

19. Go to the rough part of town and hire Guido and his Goons (sounds like a grunge band, no?) to kneecap him.

20. Don't open the door for him.

21. Retreat (to the 10th power) every chance you get.

22. Sneak into his place and put some saltpeter in his freaking bodybuilder's powdered creatine - that should calm him down a bit.

23. Stand up to him, you owe it to yourself and society at large.

24. Don't stand up to him, you're just escalating the situation.

25. Call the cops and tell them he's cooking drugs, then prepare to get charged and arrested for being an idiot.

26. Find out his mother's name, call her and tell her junior needs a spanking.

27. Buy him some beer and become his best friend. Sit on the rug at his place, join hands and sing freaking Kumbaya until you both get hoarse.

28. Get a concealed weapons license.

29. Don't buy a handgun, shotgun, rifle, carbine, mace, pepper spray, baseball bat, taser, etc. Those things can get you in trouble.

30. Rent a U-Haul and move.

:cool:

Man, if 5 pages of suggestions hasn't thoroughly confused you by now - then get the dude into your apartment and make him read this whole thread in its entirety. If that won't make him leave you alone - nothing will.

At that point, see item #30 again.

ilbob
August 14, 2008, 04:45 PM
Record any thing you want in your own home!In what state is that the law?

Interestingly, PA and MT are two states where it would generally be illegal to record him w/o his consent.

blackcash88
August 14, 2008, 06:53 PM
Glock 19, the Swiss Army knife of pistols. Easy to shoot, carry, break down, cheap ammo, etc.

rainbowbob
August 14, 2008, 08:13 PM
I cannot imagine how you would not be able to afford a lawyer when you could buy (a) gun.

Let's see...a decent used revolver can be had for about $350. Most lawyers in my town charge about $350/per hr. Do the math.

I'm not suggeting for a moment these are interchangeable or even comparable solutions...I'm just sayin'...

Orange_Magnum
August 14, 2008, 09:11 PM
1. Buy a can of mace and put it by the door.
2. Get a permit to carry concealed. A 9mm single stack is preferrable. Carry it.
3. Call the cops and describe the situation. Ask what kind of force you may put up against him. Ask what rules apply if he comes into your home uninvited. Ask what rules apply if he jumps you bare handed outside your home.
4. Ask your neighbors to call management and complain about the mad man. It doesn't pay off for you to complain to the management if they don't react, or you could become "the problem" in their eyes.
5. Reality has a way of punishing idiots in the long run. Lay low. Be cautions.

bogie
August 14, 2008, 09:14 PM
And if you have to shoot the SOB, you're gonna pay for about a half-year's tuition for some lawyer's kid to go to a good college.

Karma will bite the fellow. Stay out of the way.

There are times to be aggressive. This isn't one of them.

vtoddball
August 14, 2008, 09:21 PM
And if you have to shoot the SOB, you're gonna pay for about a half-year's tuition for some lawyer's kid to go to a good college.

If you HAVE to shoot the SOB, you'll be happy you're still alive to pay that lawyer. Not a valid argument.

Monkeybear
August 14, 2008, 09:31 PM
I would not move. The world is full of A-Holes, there's no getting away from them completely.

Exactly I don't get this line of thinking at all.
What happens if the next place has another bully/jerk/nut/crazy?
What about the next?
What about the next?

There is a world a difference between your average A-hole and a truly dangerous person. If you believe you and/or your loved one's life is on the line then you are not dealing with your average A-hole.

Either this guy isn't a genuine threat or he is. If he is I personally would, and I would suggest others, move rather than find yourself in a "kill or be killed" situation.

To the OP, if you think this guy is going to kill, rape or maim you and/or your wife then I suggest you move before you and/or your wife end up killled, raped or maimed. If your greatest fear is simple verbal harassment and intimidation then I suggest avoiding OC spray and shotguns while dealing with this situation in favor or letters, phone calls and personal visits to the management office and local police department.

Brass Rain
August 14, 2008, 09:43 PM
For home defense, nothing says "F' off" quite like a stainless Magnum of some sort. A 4" or 6" GP-100 in .357 might work. I would suggest a 1911 frame .45, but you are on a budget, right? A used GP-100 could be found for about $400 or less where a 1911 frame would be more than $700 new, 5-600 used.

Or you could just get a 12-gauge. The throttling of the foregrip alone will convince him nine times out of ten.

Or yeah, just move.

GatorDude
August 14, 2008, 10:25 PM
Before you move check out http://apartmentratings.com

Also, maybe you can transfer your lease to another apartment on the opposite end of your complex or to another community managed by your apartment company.

Firethorn
August 14, 2008, 11:14 PM
2. Get a permit to carry concealed. A 9mm single stack is preferrable. Carry it.

Depends on his assets. At least in my area a little shopping will find a 'hunting' style shotgun in decent shape for around $100. Another $10-20 will get you enough buckshot to both keep a defensive loading and verify functionality/aim/spread.

Compared to $300+ for just about any functional handgun in a self defense caliber, it's cheap.

Oh, and I still say, like the others: Document and complain to the cops/landlord/rental company.

And isn't MJ not associated with violence? Isn't that more the realm of meth, cocaine, PCP, and such?

Oh yeah - I'm not going to say that moving is necessarily the choice, I'm one of the ones that doesn't believe in backing down from evil, but you do have to sometimes pick your battles. It's your choice.

NG VI
August 14, 2008, 11:23 PM
Depends on his assets. At least in my area a little shopping will find a 'hunting' style shotgun in decent shape for around $100. Another $10-20 will get you enough buckshot to both keep a defensive loading and verify functionality/aim/spread.

Compared to $300+ for just about any functional handgun in a self defense caliber, it's cheap.

Oh, and I still say, like the others: Document and complain to the cops/landlord/rental company.

And isn't MJ not associated with violence? Isn't that more the realm of meth, cocaine, PCP, and such?

All of the above sound like a direct hit to me.

Also, if he wants to get plenty of high-quality shotshells for his money, I don't think ammunition to go can be beat. They have 25 round boxes of things like Ranger 00 for $16. Way better than $4/5 round boxes of Remington Express 00.

maestro pistolero
August 15, 2008, 03:16 AM
maestro pistolero: that would be illegal in my state, don't know about PA. Recording voice without consent here is illegal.

What presumption of privacy could he possibly have while shouting threats at you through your front door?

If that's true, which I doubt, then Ok, call 911 while he's doing it and let them record it through your phone, no permission needed.

deaconkharma
August 15, 2008, 11:31 AM
1st: Definitely stop interacting at all with him that means stomping etc. my first reaction would be to do that too but just don't. Like other's said just call the cops and they'll catch him like that. Also call manamgement after the police. I'm sure they'll hear it over the phone and if not call from where it's the loudest. It'll help to make your point to both police and management.

2nd: I cannot honestly bring myself to dissuade you from getting a firearm, even though you may or may not have misconceptions about it's use. Please consider this and your own self control / temper management and weigh the decision carefully. The only time a gun should be presented is when you are about to fire it, in my humble opinion. Brandishing as a show of "don't mess with me" is not a proper use. ----------Others may flame me for this, but if you see my gun you're going to get it's contents. that simple. -------------

3rd: "QUIET ENJOYMENT", usually a clause in landlord- tenant ageements. If they know you'll seek legal action (even if you have a friend lawyer or law student or whatever draw a letter up) the landlord is more likely to avoid a lawsuit than to listen to somone "Whine" (landlord opinion on complaints) about noise. They'll likely let you break the lease or move to another spot. Start talking about compensation for movers etc and you'll apeal to their "financial side" and they'll want to accomodate before they lose money.

Last note: considering you've identified yourself as a gun owner, will he escalate force now and get his own? or does he have one, and if so will he try to bring it to your next rendevous? Will he try to ambush you or your family now that he feels "slighted" by you? (yes I know it's silly, and you didn't, but his anger suggests he feels "punked" by you) All unrational but these are things I was thinking of when I read this. To be honest, getting away is the best option and the rest (gun etc) is up to you but I'd be apt to move far and ASAP rather than worry all the time about these things I just mentioned. He sounds crazy and short of having to present and fire, I'd be long gone. As someone else said, Darwin will take care of this guy soon enough, get out of the way and let him do himself in by messing with the wrong person.

Scattergun Bob
August 15, 2008, 02:02 PM
Rainbow Bob - the reason so many have suggested that move is a valid option is that, perhaps it is the correct one for this occasion. :rolleyes: NOT rocket science is it?

Vtoddball - It sure is easy to be a "stand your ground advocate" when it is not your butt or your loved ones life at stake. Will you be there to extract this person when your advise places him in harms way, OF COURSE you will not. More than likely you would not EVEN if you had the chance, most people shy from intervening in third party affairs.

I did not JUST advocate moving, I advocated deescalating the situation however possible and RIGHT NOW, so since you do not see any logic in this for our cultures social justice, lets look at what the o/p really said.

The o/p said "What kind of handgun is not HUGE but not tiny, something that says "I'm not ****ing around." when it's being pointed at someone."

VTODDBALL & Rainbow Bob- How will buying a gun and standing your ground solve the true dispute evident, loud noise and pot smoke? As I originally stated HOLD the LANDOWNER ACCOUNTABLE, FILE SUITE!

So, because of mutual hate and discontent lets escalate the force continuum from mear words and threats, directly to deadly force, Boy fellas that's a well thought out plan. Lets suggest to the o/p to buy a gun and stand his ground, face jeopardy and perhaps face the catastrophic event of killing over a noise dispute!!!!! because YOU think Americans are weak willed. *******ism is by degrees, If the landlord will not intervene, then move to a different location, perhaps the next ******* will be more tolerable.

You said "Just out of curiosity, what if it was a $200,000 home you owned with an obnoxious neighbor? Should you still move? $100,000? $50,000? What's the "just move" threshold? "

My very point in making the "move" argument is that it is not his ground, it is joint ground and the easiest out is to move. Far better than the worst case of using deadly force, because some other ******* suggested you stay.

You said "I'm not saying to be confrontational, but slinking away to avoid the problem isn't a solution. That attitude is what made it possible for anti-gunners to get so many laws passed hampering gun ownership. Instead of standing up for what was right, gun owners simply left CA, NY, MA, etc., leaving their stranded fellow shooters to fend for themselves."

Sounds to me like you need a soap box, that is OK, but why in the hell should this person pay the bill for your MOUTH!

Neither one of us know the person asking for help, MY take is that he really does not wish to use deadly force, that is why I suggest the other options.

I have carried a gun every day for 26+ years and I have a code of conduct for this life, what you suggest violates 2 of the rules I live by.

3. If I can move away safely - THEN RUN

If I force a confrontation I risk the possibility of myself or a family member being killed, criminal liability, arrest. I will flee if I can, fight only as a last resort.

The BEST gunfight that ever was, was the one that never happened!

5. Don't let my emotions get the best of me.

THIS IS A PROBLEM FOR YOU. If, despite my efforts, I do get into some kind of heated dispute with another while I am armed, never mention, imply, or exhibit my pistol to intimidate.

I spent a fair amount of time in mediation of multi-family disputes, GUNS and THREATS never work, if I had 10$ for every time I suggested folks find "another way" I would have a better retirement!


Good luck on giving your advise, I hope it does not come back to haunt you.

bogie
August 15, 2008, 03:46 PM
I'm wondering if some folks either actually -are- gun owners, or if they should be allowed to possess them.

Aggression and boomsticks does not mix with everyday life. That means you don't want to do things which will escalate into a deadly confrontation - which you will come out ahead in - which will cost you a bundle of time and money both legally and socially.

poor_richard
August 15, 2008, 04:16 PM
First let me say welcome to THR.

I've got a long write up for this, but first, I'll be brief. Because you have and continue to escalate the situation, you put yourself and your wife in a bad position. You've painted yourself with the label of, "that guy who was always having trouble with his neighbor".


I'm sure your neighbor is a problem, but you need to understand that you fueled the fire.

The IDEAL course of action is for you to move, and learn to establish boundaries. You normally shouldn't have to move, but since you have little or no concept of boundaries, you've created a situation in which standing your ground could be somewhat dicey.

That's the short version, the long version will follow.

poor_richard
August 15, 2008, 04:58 PM
First let me say welcome to THR.

I’ve read much of this thread, but after a while it got a little redundant. There’s the “move” crowd, there’s the “stand your ground” crowd, and there’s the “document everything” crowd. Unfortunately, most of the posters here seem to be ignoring the real problem, and it isn’t your jock neighbor, it’s you. I’m not trying to berate you here, but actually help, so please don’t get offended, and just hear me out.


I’m going to post some quotes from your posts, and I hope you see a pattern here, because I certainly do. That pattern is, “You have little or no concept of boundaries, and therefore lack such boundaries". I‘ll explain as I go for purpose of demonstration.

…We didn't mind the noise at first but the pot smoke seeping into our apartment was too much.

… You later follow this with
..I usually wouldn't care about pot smoke, I don't care what people do, normally. But in this rare case if I smell it I'll... be a "lamer"... and call the cops just to get him out
If the pot smoke and music didn’t bother you, you wouldn’t be in this mess. Truth is, they did bother you (and righteously so), but you just didn’t want to do anything about it. That could be a result of fear, laziness, apathy, etc… or something. Irregardless, you failed to set up a boundary for something like this, so you decided to initially pass it off as “acceptable”, all the while hopping it would subside.

I pounded on the floor. (Apartment talk for "keep it down")
I know, you may think this is enforcing a boundary, but it isn’t. It’s passive/aggressive behavior. While this is commonly accepted “apartment talk”, it is only effective if the neighbors are respectable. You had no such impression of your neighbor, so it wasn’t “Apartment talk”, but was instead nothing more than “lashing out”. Your neighbor is new, so you had no indication of how he would react. Maybe you were just a little naive here (doubtful since you seem to seek escalation), but a wiser course of action would have been an anonymous complaint to the PD dispatcher. Our PD has a non-emergency number (you shouldn’t be calling 911 at this point anyway) for which they may ask your info, but you aren’t required to give it. New neighbors who are respectful don’t do such things, but I’m guessing you probably knew that already.

He cranked it up louder. I went down there to ask what the hell was his problem.
Here’s a lesson about boundaries: it means you don’t get to control the situation. That’s why many people have problems like this. They think they need to “take charge” or control situations, when in reality, the only thing they can control is themselves (sometimes not doing a very good job of it).

You should have called the PD instead of even pounding on the floor, but that would have meant that you did nothing else, which threatens your control. The boundary is, “he does his thing, and I do mine. If his thing intrudes on mine, then call the PD and let them deal with him, as I don’t care to deal with the aggravation.” Instead, you pounded on the floor in an effort to resolve matters yourself (letting him know you shouldn’t be messed with), and then when it only escalated things, you went down to give him a piece of your mind.

…I... lied... to him and told him I had a gun pointed at the door, to back away and the cops have been called.
Still no mention of calling the PD and letting the authorities take care of it. Yet, you threaten him with a firearm and PD (another effort to control his actions). Congratulations, you’ve now not only further escalated the situation, but also threatened him with a firearm, which tells him that there may be one in your apartment when your not there.

… I will be buying a gun to protect ourselves while living here.


What kind of handgun is not HUGE but not tiny, something that says "I'm not ****ing around." when it's being pointed at someone. A gun that is... cheaper.. not so large it's a burden to carry/hold up but not something so small that it's more "cute" than "oh ****!", inducing. If you get my meaning….
Sounds like your "meaning" is to intimidate (guess you haven’t yet figured out that’s not working) which is why you shouldn’t get a gun. A gun is lethal force, not a magic talisman. A boundary would be, “the gun is for defense of life should anyone try to harm us”, not “ something that says “I’m not ****ing””. Before you get a gun, you need to take the NRA course on personal protection in the home, and read the book. I honestly don’t think you are prepared to take another mans life. And, that is what the purpose of getting that gun is. It’s lethal force, and that means someone will die. If you can’t look at it that way, then you shouldn’t get the gun. The idea of scaring someone with it is just another attempt to control another person’s behavior, and that isn‘t a boundary.

…I also plan on printing up notices to tape on everyone's door giving them a quick overview about the cops, the drugs and the violence. That may help the management do something...
Still trying to get “others” to do something, instead of deciding what you will do and following that course of action. Did you think that these notices won’t be seen by him? Your still escalating the situation (not to mention bringing other witnesses to the fact that you have a problem with someone), which will only work to your detriment in court.
Cheap and scary. I'll probably just stare at it and not get it... he did try to get in that one time though... hard choice. I'd rather not have a gun around.

The reason you don’t want the gun around is because you avoid boundaries, and a gun can be a huge boundary. With a gun in the house, you must set a boundary. If it’s needed for protection, you use it, decisively, and you don’t stop using it until the threat stops. That’s a pretty severe boundary, and your reluctance is understandable. With the gun and no boundary, it could easily be used against you and your wife, which is why your hesitant.

I didn't know what to do so I paused a few sec while he continued to try to get in then told him I had a gun and that we are calling the cops. You know the rest. Okay, claiming the gun was probably not the best, but when a 6'7" mega muscle dude is flipping out and trying to get into your house.... ya.
Sorry, but the only reason you think your implication translates, is because you don’t establish boundaries. You seem to think your response was “reasonable give the circumstance”. What you don’t seem to understand is that most people here would not respond in such a manner. If someone (anyone) is trying to break into my house with threats of bodily harm or death, I AM ARMED, AND I AM CALLING THE POLICE. That’s a boundary. There will be no empty threats or warnings from me (other than “stop”, or maybe “stop or I will shoot”, but not if I am not prepared to shoot, and being unarmed, you weren’t). Empty threats aren’t boundaries.
Nice! I will try the "legal scare tactics". I'm usually not one for lawyer stuff... I keep to myself and don't want trouble.
You’ve been trying “scare tactics” all along, and that’s how you've gotten into this mess. Scare tactics are not boundaries, they are what people use to dictate or control other people’s behavior. This will also escalate the situation, although it might be viewed as a reasoned response.


I understand that your neighbor is a problem. I understand that his behavior is unacceptable. Guess what, “SO DOES HE”.

Here’s a hot news flash:
He knew/knows his music was too loud, he knew/knows he shouldn’t be smoking pot, and he most certainly knew/knows that his behavior is totally in the wrong. He did these things to intimidate you, and when you didn’t immediately call the police and LL, you sent the message that his methods of intimidation were/are working.

Your boundaries should have been: as soon as you hear loud disturbances (music, partying/voices, any other, …etc), you should have called LE/LL. As soon as he threatened you, you should have called LE/LL. You should have never talked to him (this in effect sends the message that your open to negotiation). All negative reinforcement should have come from the proper authorities, not you.

Your boundaries have been/are: he can do what he wants , hoping he doesn’t breach your door and enter your home. This needs to change, now.

You should maintain a policy of “no contact” with him. NONE. That means no pounding on the floor (that’s for neighbors who will abide by such things. He isn’t one). Because of your failure to do this (I know, you wanted to solve it without things getting out of hand, but his version of solving it is you putting up with his nonsense), you will now be the target for any complaints lodged by you, or any other tenants. Stop working to do anything other than file complaints with the LE and LL. Don’t be the one about who the fellow tenants say, “Yeah, he was always complaining about that jock fellow’s loud music, I can’t believe he shot him.” Start taking measures to protect yourself legally, right now. That means no contact, and no complaining to the neighbors (Don’t be surprised to discover that they lied about complaining. My experience is that while many will talk, few will stand up). Your only correspondence/communication on this matter should be with the police, and the landlord. He should neither see, nor hear you, ever. If he sees and hears so little of you that he thinks you moved out, then your on the right track.

Also, don’t ever again mention a gun to him or anyone. You’ve now labeled yourself as the guy looking for an excuse to shoot his neighbor because you couldn’t resolve the issue by other means. I know that probably isn’t true, but that truth won’t matter once your in the courtroom defending yourself from a manslaughter rap.

Another thing you need to do is develop positive relationships with your other neighbors. This will provide good character references, and means you don’t talk about him, to them. Your letting this situation control you, because you are trying to control it. By setting up the proper boundaries, you will relieve yourself of these concerns, and be more confident on how to handle any situation that should arise.

Game it out. What will you do if you hear his music today? How long will you wait before calling it in (in my town, this can be done anonymously if the regular dispatch line is used instead of the 911 line, which you should only use in an emergency anyway)? What will you do if he confronts you about it (that would be to call the police again)? Set up your boundaries (and course of action) now. That way, when these things happen, you’ll be less stressed about them.


Understand this one last thing. If you now (after all that escalation) establish and enforce such boundaries, HE’LL BLAME YOU (he‘s going to blame you regardless). If he’s dangerous, then that means that you and your wife are in danger. That means that even (after going the authorities route) if you move, he may still see you or your wife around town. That’s why you should just move. You’ve harmed (not destroyed) any case you may have in court (as in you or your wife had to shoot him) by your continued escalation. You don’t seem prepared to deal with the use of lethal force, and it’s probably doubtful your wife is either. If he is dangerous, that means that you and your wife need to be prepared to defend yourselves wherever you are, not just in the home. You aren’t even close to that point yet, and even if you got up to speed fast, your still don’t want that kind of trouble since it a huge mess that you helped create. The easiest way out is to move.

anarchris
August 15, 2008, 05:49 PM
I was held up with a tiny .22 once, I found it very intimidating.
Lying about having a gun pointed at him means you've gotten all your gun info from movies and TV.

PA is a great gun friendly state.
I urge you to take a self defense course and urge you to become familiar with deadly force laws in your area.

You handled the situation poorly but I'm sure you can learn.

I learned a great deal in the strategy and tactics forum by just reading!

FCFC
August 15, 2008, 06:37 PM
... I have a code of conduct for this life, what you suggest violates 2 of the rules I live by.

3. If I can move away safely - THEN RUN

If I force a confrontation I risk the possibility of myself or a family member being killed, criminal liability, arrest. I will flee if I can, fight only as a last resort.

The BEST gunfight that ever was, was the one that never happened!

5. Don't let my emotions get the best of me.

THIS IS A PROBLEM FOR YOU. If, despite my efforts, I do get into some kind of heated dispute with another while I am armed, never mention, imply, or exhibit my pistol to intimidate.

I spent a fair amount of time in mediation of multi-family disputes, GUNS and THREATS never work, if I had 10$ for every time I suggested folks find "another way" I would have a better retirement!



+ 1.0

Excellent post, Scattergun Bob. Some reasonable ideas about reasonableness... Thank you.

I wonder if OP is coming back to post? I wonder if it was a real OP?

vtoddball
August 15, 2008, 09:26 PM
Wow Scattergun. Where to begin.


VTODDBALL & Rainbow Bob- How will buying a gun and standing your ground solve the true dispute evident, loud noise and pot smoke? As I originally stated HOLD the LANDOWNER ACCOUNTABLE, FILE SUITE!
At what point did I indicate he shouldn't do those things. I simply stated that moving shouldn't be solution number one as proposed by so many. In fact, I said that I wasn't advising being confrontational. My argument leaves plenty of breathing room between moving and drawing a gun.

So, because of mutual hate and discontent lets escalate the force continuum from mear words and threats, directly to deadly force, Boy fellas that's a well thought out plan
I never said to escalate. Get your facts straight.

Lets suggest to the o/p to buy a gun and stand his ground, face jeopardy and perhaps face the catastrophic event of killing over a noise dispute!!!!! because YOU think Americans are weak willed. *******ism is by degrees,
I never said he should get a gun. In fact I DON'T think he should get a gun. I think that rare is the occasion where someone should by a firearm when they are angry or scared. It usually leads to trouble. But you keep imagining I said he should and I'll keep wondering how you type with your head placed in such a dark and damp location.

My very point in making the "move" argument is that it is not his ground, it is joint ground and the easiest out is to move. Far better than the worst case of using deadly force, because some other ******* suggested you stay.
Home is where you hang your hat. Simply because he is renting doesn't make his residence any less a home. And I think other posters with rental experience have made clear that moving from place to place ends up creating more problems for the renter in the long run. So it may be the easiest to suggest, but probably not the easiest to live with. As frustrated as the OP sounds, the odds are very good that nothing will come of this. As much as many of us on this forum like to talk about "tactical" situations and "what if" scenarios, the odds of them happening are very low. So it's certainly not unreasonable to suggest he weigh that likelihood against the issues that will be presented if he decides to move.

Also, I'll assume that seven letter word is something nice like "comrade." I mean, it wouldn't be very high road to call someone names simply because they disagreed with you would it? I expect better from a self proclaimed mediator.

Will you be there to extract this person when your advise places him in harms way, OF COURSE you will not.
....
then move to a different location, perhaps the next ******* will be more tolerable.
The operative word being "perhaps". If this was the third time he had moved because of bad neighbors would your advice be the same? I guess the question is, when he can't find a place to stay because of his rental history and he has no savings because he's moved from place to place, will YOU be there, helping him deal with the consequences of your advice? OF COURSE you will not.

Sounds to me like you need a soap box,
You're right. I forgot, only YOUR opinion is worth mentioning. Forgive me for speaking out of turn oh wise one.

that is OK, but why in the hell should this person pay the bill for your MOUTH!
WHat are you talking about?! A grown up asked other grown ups for advice. Now he gets to weigh all that advice and do what free men do. Make his own decisions based on his experiences and then live with them good or bad.

MY take is that he really does not wish to use deadly force
No one on this forum should WANT to use deadly force. The question is, could he use deadly force and would he be justified. Two questions I didn't comment on because without being there or knowing him, I'm not qualified to address them.

I have a code of conduct for this life, what you suggest violates 2 of the rules I live by.

3. If I can move away safely - THEN RUN

If I force a confrontation I risk the possibility of myself or a family member being killed, criminal liability, arrest. I will flee if I can, fight only as a last resort.
That can only be taken so far. Sure it's better to run than to shoot someone, get in a fight, etc., but you don't move every time a neighbor shouts at you. Have you EVER lived in a city?! If what happened to the OP demands someone move, no one in any metropolitan apartment would be in the same place for more than a few days.

5. Don't let my emotions get the best of me.
THIS IS A PROBLEM FOR YOU.
Wow. That's amazing Creskin. Three posts and you've already figured out that I'm a trigger happy hothead bent on convincing gun forum readers nationwide to run into their neighbor's apartments with guns blazing. That mediation work has given you quite the nose for picking us crazies out of a crowd. Here I was, thinking I had just suggested that moving wasn't the best option and gave a few reasons why. Turns out I was apparently communicating that he should buy an uzi and light up the neighbor.

At this point , I'd like to take a quick break and ask, do you seriously have a code of rules you live by? I mean, everyone has "guidelines", but you seriously just whipped out the 'ol #3 and #5 like you have a cheat sheet tucked away in your wallet. Does anyone else on here do that? Did I miss a class or something where the virtues and advantages of a self prescribed, written code of ethics was espoused? Just curious.

Good luck on giving your advise, I hope it does not come back to haunt you.
Well if I see a headline on Drudge stating "Man, Dog and Busload of Nuns Killed after Taking Advice From Gun Forum Crazy", I'll wipe the tears from my eyes long enough to write you an "I'm sorry to have disagreed with you" letter. Then I'll remember that I'm responsible for MY actions, the OP is responsible for HIS actions and go about my merry way.

Sheesh pal. I have no idea what I said or did to deserve the venom you spewed, but you can take it eslewhere. I'm sorry if I hurt your wittle feelings. Next time I'm be sure not to disagree with you so you don't have to invest so much time in an online tantrum.

pbearperry
August 15, 2008, 09:28 PM
Roses are red,violets are blue,get an attorney,and sue,sue,sue.

Scattergun Bob
August 15, 2008, 09:38 PM
My Five Rules for CONCEALED Carry


1. My concealed handgun is for protection of life only.

Draw it only in preparation to protect myself or my family from the willful and wanton life-threatening actions of another.


2. Know exactly when I can use my gun.
A predator must have or reasonably appear to have:

the ability to inflict serious bodily harm or death upon me. (He is armed)

the opportunity to inflict serious bodily harm. (distance, body type, position)

his intent indicates that he means to inflict serious bodily harm or death upon me. (mere words are not enough)

When all 3 of these element are in place simultaneously, THIS IS A THREAT STIMULUS!
The response to threat stimulus ; zero muzzle, flash sight picture, exercise trigger control, deliver a minimum response.

3. If I can move away safely - THEN RUN
If I force a confrontation I risk the possibility of myself or a family member being killed, criminal liability, arrest. I will flee if I can, fight only as a last resort.

The BEST gunfight that ever was, was the one that never happened!

4 Display my gun, go to jail.

I should expect to be arrested by the police at gunpoint, and be charged with a crime anytime I expose my concealed handgun to another citizen in public! I must continue to perfect a carry method that keeps my pistol reliably hidden from the general public view. Before I deliberately expose my pistol in public, I must ask myself "is this issue worth going to Jail".

5. Don't let my emotions get the best of me.

THIS IS A PROBLEM FOR YOU. If, despite my efforts, I do get into some kind of heated dispute with another while I am armed, never mention, imply, or exhibit my pistol to intimidate. (SEE EVAN'S STUFF, AND READ AGAIN & AGAIN)

These rules have been around for many years, Many take credit for them, I do not, however, I use them. Any comments?

The comment on #5 "this a problem for you" is about ME, I don't know you.

Huddog
August 15, 2008, 09:38 PM
"Let the police shoot him. That's what they get paid for." No, that's not what they get paid for. Having to take a life is an extremely painful and unnatural act. So let's not disrespect the police by being so flippant about one of the most tramatic events in an LEOs life.

Travis McGee
August 15, 2008, 10:34 PM
You need to MOVE. Period. A quiet trailer in the burbs or boonies beats a loud disfunctional apartment ANY day. I tell you that from experience both ways.

poor_richard
August 15, 2008, 10:54 PM
At what point did I indicate he shouldn't do those things. I simply stated that moving shouldn't be solution number one as proposed by so many. In fact, I said that I wasn't advising being confrontational. My argument leaves plenty of breathing room between moving and drawing a gun.Your right. Moving shouldn’t be “solutions number one”, and that isn’t what people are proposing. He’s already tried other solutions (so it obviously isn't "solution number one"), and as a result has escalated the situation. Your suggestion that he “not be confrontational” is “too little, too late”. That cat is already out of the bag, and the confrontation is in full swing. Your argument may leave plenty of breathing room, but it doesn’t apply to this case. If he hadn’t escalated the situation, then moving wouldn’t be the first solution for him to seek. Unfortunately, that isn’t the case. Moving is his best option. That is, provided that this is actually a true story.

CHEVELLE427
August 15, 2008, 11:05 PM
ME I WOULD

Get a ball bat or a taser until you get a gun.
Next time when he comes to pound on your door, have someone answer it and step back, he burst in making threats do some pounding with that bat or stick him with the tazer. THEN call the law to come haul the crap off. MY .02

bogie
August 15, 2008, 11:15 PM
Sigh...

On one side, we have the old farts, many of whom have personally been there, done that, and on the other we've got people who think that a preemptive nuclear strike would be a good warmup, but who seem to have gained their knowledge of the way the world works from the cartoon channel, spike-tv, pro-wrestling, and old Charlie Bronson movies...

Good Shot Group
August 15, 2008, 11:25 PM
My Lord, what has happened to this thread? Folks telling others to "shove it". I thought this was the high road. We are not playing nicely with others.

Monkeybear
August 15, 2008, 11:29 PM
I would avoid opening the door if your neighbor is loudly pounding on it and making threats.

To the OP.
We have all given your our take on the situation. Only you know the true severity of your neighbor's hostility against you. Personally if I were you I would evaluate if your life/well being is at stake. If its not then there is no reason to bring firearms into the situation. If thats the case then this thread is off topic.

If you still want to talk about guns for general self defense and recreation then start up another thread about your interest in them. If you still want to talk about your neighbor but are not in actual fear of your life then try the Armed and Polite (http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=e9c405767c71b79b2134ed86b0d41d1c;www) forum.

bogie
August 15, 2008, 11:33 PM
This is the advice to take...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuHVHrriC0U

CHEVELLE427
August 15, 2008, 11:38 PM
And you would rather he just kill the guy for pounding on the door I guess.:confused:

The way I read it. there is a person making threats to another because they called the law a few times, guy coming to his home wanting in were guy that called the law has no weapon to defend himself.
cops dont/wont do anything , so he is just supposed to tuck his tail in and move. or not come out of his home until the DA downstairs is a sleep.:rolleyes:

WTH.

Indifferent
August 15, 2008, 11:38 PM
Pester the cops and landlord every time this guy does something. Don't confront the guy.

The landlord will either kick him out or let you break the lease and leave.

Yep.
And keep a firearm, train your family. Become Zen in case you do ever unfortunetly have to use it, with this guy, I'd recommend a small Revolver that way you can keep it in your pocket on the way to the car, etc.

Living with apartment neighbors sucks.

I had one of my neighbors/friend, his apartment was open, his car was not there, people not related to him were in the apartment. I walked by not showing concern, loaded only my itty bitty .22 Ruger, stuck it down my drawers and walked back, called him, no answer, asked them what they were doing, no response, said I was going to call the police and got a a "I'm going to kill you look", called the police, 24 minutes later, turns out they were a cleaning crew that didn't speak english, he had paid them to clean his apartment. I felt silly with that Ruger aimed at my manhood, but, I also felt comfortable enough to go and try to see whats going on, sometimes just the comfort is all you need.

bogie
August 15, 2008, 11:46 PM
Guys, some of you need to take a step back.

You're sounding like movie cowboys out looking for a fight.

Being armed with lethal force means you do not have the luxury of looking for a fight.

And for the genius who suggested whacking someone with a bat - Welcome to the concept of "assault and battery with a deadly weapon." Because that's what that is. Can you say "depressed skull fracture?" You may think "Oh, just whack them in the leg." Bull. Someone comes through your door, you aren't going to be aiming all that carefully.

1) Be capable of self defense.

2) Before that, be capable of self control.

About 10 years ago, when I lived in an apartment near a campus, I had some neighbors who decided to have a party. At about 2:00 in the morning, I was beating upon their door, until a lull in the music allowed the people inside to hear, whereupon they noticed a very large, red-eyed, furry fellow in a bathrobe standing upon their threshold. I gently informed them that they really needed to turn it down, because I had to get up and go to work in about five hours, and that it would be a damn shame for the police to show up, and could I please have a beer before I went back downstairs?

They turned it down. We got along just fine.

Didn't shoot anyone. Didn't even consider it.

Monkeybear
August 15, 2008, 11:51 PM
And you would rather he just kill the guy for pounding on the door I guess.

As far as I can tell the guy only pounded on his door once. I would rather he not get himself into legal trouble when the officers find a injured/dead man in his apartment and no signs of forced entry. You can kill a man with a bat.

I am not saying tuck tail and run because you are intimidated. I am saying either you feel your life is in danger or you do not. If you do, then you and your loved ones should relocate to an area where you do not feel that you might be killed. The real question is:Is his neighbor a threat or just a loud jerk?

There are other ways to deal with jerks than moving or killing and there other places to discuss it.

The best way to deal with violence is to avoid it and when you cannot avoid it, to respond in kind. Now I agree with Jeff Cooper's wisdom that "you cannot defeat evil by fleeing from it" however this neigbor dose not sound "evil". Loud and potentially violent is more like it. It is this potential for violence that I suggest we all make a point, in our daily lives, to avoid. Many people who are not "evil, people who do not prey on others, have a potential for violence. Many who are not "killers" have killed in times of intense emotion and poor judgment. If this confrontation has the potential to escalate into a "kill or be killed" situation then I suggest he move or get his neighbor to move, which ever sounds like the quickest resolution.


I had one of my neighbors/friend, his apartment was open, his car was not there, people not related to him were in the apartment. I walked by not showing concern, loaded only my itty bitty .22 Ruger, stuck it down my drawers and walked back, called him, no answer, asked them what they were doing, no response, said I was going to call the police and got a a "I'm going to kill you look", called the police, 24 minutes later, turns out they were a cleaning crew that didn't speak english, he had paid them to clean his apartment. I felt silly with that Ruger aimed at my manhood, but, I also felt comfortable enough to go and try to see whats going on, sometimes just the comfort is all you need.

Thats the wrong kind of courage. I do nothing armed that I would not do unarmed.

CHEVELLE427
August 16, 2008, 12:01 AM
SOME REASON IM LOST NOW,

Recap
perp comes to my door pounding on it and has already made a threat to kick my ass if I call the law again.

I dont own a gun but it sounds like if I did it would be OK to shoot this guy if he comes in my house.

so plan B is i have this bat,
not as deadly as a gun but will work.

Prep bangs on my door I open it he comes in (my house) making threats and its a bad thing to pound on him because it is "assault and battery with a deadly weapon." Because that's what that is. Can you say "depressed skull fracture?" but I can shoot him and this is better somehow.
did I get lost in this tail somewere.
not sure if you still have to run and hide in your state but we have the right to stand our ground in FLORIDA, our duty is not to run away anymore.

i guess if the bully is bothering me i best pick up my toys and move so i wont get in trouble when i pound on him. WITH MY BAT

:confused::confused::confused::confused:

Monkeybear
August 16, 2008, 12:04 AM
SOME REASON IM LOST NOW,



...........made a threat to kick my ass if I call the law again........


but I can shoot him and this is better somehow.

Not if you open the door. World of difference between him breaking down your door and you opening it for him while armed. The door creates a boundary. That boundary diffuses your claim the the man you killed had the ability to kill you. It also prevents you from being in jeopardy. Once he breaks it down, things are different. If you remove it for him, after he made his threats.....not so much.

Also important to note: World of difference between "I'm gonna kick your ass" and "I'm gonna kill you".

CHEVELLE427
August 16, 2008, 12:04 AM
As far as I can tell the guy only pounded on his door once. I would rather he not get himself into legal trouble when the officers find a injured/dead man in his apartment and no signs of forced entry. You can kill a man with a bat.

I am not saying tuck tail and run because you are intimidated. I am saying either you feel your life is in danger or you do not. If you do, then you and your loved ones should relocate to an area where you do not feel that you might be killed. The real question is: Is his neighbor a threat or just a loud jerk?

There are other ways to deal with jerks than moving or killing them and other places to discuss it.

IF HE COMES IN MY HOME BY FORCE OR OPEN DOOR AND HE THREATENS ME AND MINE. HE WILL BE DEALT WITH ACCORDING TO THE THREAT LEVEL HE HAS OFFERED.

anyway if i go to the door at anytime after dark my weapon comes along as well

Monkeybear
August 16, 2008, 12:17 AM
IF HE COMES IN MY HOME BY FORCE OR OPEN DOOR AND HE THREATENS ME AND MINE

If he knocks, you open the door and then he threatens you that is one thing. If he threatens you and then you open the door that is quite another. Why would you invite violence into your home? If you open the door, can we believe you are truly in fear of your life or are you just retaliating?

HE WILL BE DEALT WITH ACCORDING TO THE THREAT LEVEL HE HAS OFFERED.

People make threats all the time. Do you respond to every one accordingly?

Sounds like the "manly" thing to say and all that, but I prefer to try and diffuse a potentially violent situation if possible.

CHEVELLE427
August 16, 2008, 12:21 AM
but I prefer to try and diffuse a potentially violent situation if possible.

same here, but im also too old and broken to not watch what is around me, or who has it in for me. most of the time im sorta

likeable ;)

Monkeybear
August 16, 2008, 12:27 AM
CHEVELLE427- Sorry if it seems as if I singled you out back there in my post where I referred to you as "this guy". I should have worded it better. Its been edited.

Hey, I hit 1,000 post! Only took 30 months. :p

CHEVELLE427
August 16, 2008, 12:32 AM
it is just the heat of the minute. you have a good point. no IM not going to open the door to let the threat in,

But I should have the right to open my door at any time without worrying about what a jury would say.

i have always had a gun in my truck for as long as i can remember . never thought the day would come were i thought i would want/need to carry one.

my how the times have changed in such a short time

Monkeybear
August 16, 2008, 12:34 AM
I should have the right to open my door at any time without worrying about what a jury would say.

an excellent point as well

CHEVELLE427
August 16, 2008, 12:36 AM
well this has been a hoot buT i got to go,
GUN SHOW IN THE MORNING.

got to hunt for them deals. LOL

dalepres
August 16, 2008, 12:39 AM
He cranked it up louder. I went down there to ask what the hell was his problem.

The guy flipped out completely, like roid rage style. He was talking about how if I ever called the cops again he would kick my ass (I guess because we called the cops when he may have been beating a woman) and blah blah. He then went on ranting and calling names and all of that. I closed and locked the door as the guy was out of his mind. He then started banging on the door and trying to open the handle to get inside... and do something violent I am sure.

Sounds like this is being made up as it goes along. You went down there and locked his door?

Matt G
August 16, 2008, 01:40 AM
A: Keep calling the cops when he disturbs the peace.

B: Keep a log of this. Ideally, ask that the officer come by your apartment afterwards, to tell you what he did (citation, warning, etc), and ask for a card with the service number on it. Log those service numbers.

C: Keep your landlord apprised of the police reports. Landlords hate hassles, and will evict a troublesome tennant. Do a public records request for calls for service to your apartment and his. (Noise complaints get logged either way, sometimes-- caller's location or actor's location.)

D: Do NOT seek confrontation.

E: If he calms down on his own, let it lie. That's a win.

F: By all means arm yourself. Keep a handgun (shotguns aren't going to be coming to the door with you). Learn to use it. Store it safely. Make sure everyone in the house, regardless of their interest in using the gun, knows and understands the Four Rules Of Gun Safety (http://www.thefiringline.com/Misc/safetyrules.html). I like K-frame revolvers, like the Model 10, with heavy barrels of about 3 to 4 inches. But medium-framed Glocks, DAO autos and the like are fine, too.

G: Do NOT get into the "intimidation game." Make no threats.

sfmittels
August 16, 2008, 03:36 AM
I actually read all the posts in this thread, for which I should get some sort of award. You are in a classic "lose-lose" situation. It's not caused by you; you're just the poor SOB who lives above this puddle of testosterone.

You've got a wife, for crying out loud. Guns are not the answer. Police complaints are not the answer (but they perhaps can't hurt). Your landlord already has revealed himself as a spineless whelp.

GET THE HELL OUT. Lease be damned. Preferrably, move when Mr Neanderthal isn't home. Don't leave a forwarding address, and get a new phone number. In the words of my CCW instructor in Arizona, "the best defense is the Nike Defense" [ie: RUN AWAY]. Don't sweat your dignity. Just disappear. If the landlord doesn't like you breaking your lease, let him take you to court and prove his case against your well-documented evidence. Get away from this Neanderthal as quickly as possible.

This thread started three days ago. You should be gone by now. If you choose to go the firearms route, learn the law, learn the rules, and practice, practice, practice. And prepare for some jail time, because I'm sure Mike Nifong club prosecutors are alive and active in your area.

I'm not saying this is easy. You may very well like where you're living. Look, I'm 60 years old and have seen all sorts of stuff in my life. If this guy is as bad as you've pictured him, you need to disappear. I know it's not pleasant, nor is it easy. I wish you well.

maestro pistolero
August 16, 2008, 04:32 AM
And for the genius who suggested whacking someone with a bat - Welcome to the concept of "assault and battery with a deadly weapon." Because that's what that is. Can you say "depressed skull fracture?" You may think "Oh, just whack them in the leg." Bull. Someone comes through your door, you aren't going to be aiming all that carefully.

I'm that genius. If you can avoid shooting someone whose broken down your door with a little pain compliance I would consider that an act of kindness.

No point in hitting him in the head as that is lethal force. Thank you for helping to make that clear.

My point is, the force should match the level of threat. If a little pepper spray does the job, stop there. If he fights you unarmed after the OC, ramp it up a little with a couple of whacks to the soft tissue and firm commands to leave or stay down.
If he's armed with anything, all bets are off.

bogie
August 16, 2008, 05:19 AM
I'm not all that bloody coordinated. If someone comes through my door, and all I have is a bat, I'm gonna be thinking Babe Ruth. How do I know that? Because I'm old and experienced.

And because if they've come through my door, well... They've come through a door that a paranoid former city dweller "fixed."

Steel, with big ol' long screws, etc., etc...

And if I'm scared enough to grab a baseball bat, well, I'm gonna grab the 'gauge instead.

HOWEVER...

It's much better to not seek confrontation. I mean, have you EVER tried to get blood out of drywall?

bigfatdave
August 16, 2008, 11:27 AM
Last post by will500: August 13th, 2008, 09:32 PM.
Last Activity: August 14th, 2008 12:00 AM

Maybe the debate should be paused until he returns to it.
That would limit assumptions and guesses about his situation.

blackcash88
August 16, 2008, 03:09 PM
Maybe he's dead?

bigfatdave
August 16, 2008, 05:04 PM
Maybe he's too busy packing and moving to reply.
Maybe he got put in the hospital by the aggressive neighbor.
Maybe he is too busy this weekend at a beginner's handgun class to reply.
Maybe he was a troll in the first place.
Maybe he was carrying a baseball bat down the stairs and fell on his violent neighbor accidentally, 27 times.
Maybe he is out getting wasted with his neighbor [who seems to have access to recreational substances] and now they are the best of friends.


The point I was trying to make was that the thread was wandering into attempts to interpret vague information.
I'm sure that any of the passionate and opinionated replies are 100% correct, if the assumptions made by those same passionate & opinionated people are also correct.

blackbearaddict
August 17, 2008, 08:02 PM
if u think u need a gun get a gun knowing as much as possible about it and ONLY get it out unless you or your wife are in immediate danger. I would get a piece of thick rebar about a foot long with something to attach to your wrist so it doesnt slip. Keep it close by to you.
ANd one last thing, is get as many people to complain as much as possible. Also try the state cops instead.

dbones
August 17, 2008, 08:22 PM
If a BG is dumb enough to break down a door then I am smart enough to know that he is not rational and he will be shot. End of story, no warning or anything. My job at that moment is to protect me and my family and I will take whatever extreme, fast method at hand.

I would also have someone in my family be talking to to 911 Operator and explaining to them that if this fool comes thru that door by force he will be leaving in and ambulance at the least from a gunshot.

Quit trying to pussyfoot around this issue. the idiot has proven he is not rational so I was taught to deal with that in only one way. Protect!!!!!!!

FCFC
August 18, 2008, 12:21 AM
Maybe the debate should be paused until he returns to it.
That would limit assumptions and guesses about his situation.

Maybe he's in jail on assault with a lethal weapon charges.
Perhaps. But I'm sure some people would find a way to defend him...

LKB3rd
August 18, 2008, 07:04 AM
http://outdoornewsdaily.com/index.php/archives/2106
It doesn't appear as if PA has a "castle doctrine" which in most versions allows you to assume deadly intent of anyone breaking into your home. So, if he breaks in, and there is no clear "disparity of force" (in a confrontation between males, this will generally mean 2 or more vs you, or knowledge that he is trained in a martial art, that you can prove in court), you will not be justified in shooting him unless he has a weapon.
Get a video recorder, record him, take a martial arts class. Buy extra mace, and after you douse him with it, beat him senseless with your fists. If you buy a gun, learn the laws, and whether you agree with them or not, be prepared to have them used against you if you shoot an unarmed man.

marsofold
August 18, 2008, 11:25 AM
I live in PA. In all circumstances you are required to retreat as far as possible. Only if cornered in your own house are you legally allowed to shoot. The OP sounds as if he is somewhat short of funds. So: buy a revolver on your credit card today and keep it AT HOME since you have no permit to carry. Go through the motions of finding somewhere else to live. Once you have made a reliable verbal agreement on your next place to live, go tell your current apartment manager that you've made other arrangements and plan on leaving at the end of the month without paying him any more rent. Tell him that he can keep your security deposit as the last rent payment. And that you will only cancel the move if the problem-child is gone before then. Then if nothing changes, MOVE! The above is the least painful solution to your problem.

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