Residents Don't Like Scout's Range


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Steve N
August 14, 2008, 08:04 AM
The range is in southwest Lorain county, OH. (Next county west of Cleveland). It is a rural area. I have no idea who was there first, the range or the residents.

http://www.chroniclet.com/2008/08/14/residents-scouts-at-odds-over-shooting-range-in-henrietta-township_122/

Residents, Scouts at odds over shooting range in Henrietta Township
Cindy Leise | The Chronicle-Telegram


HENRIETTA TWP. — Emotions ran high Wednesday night as residents near the Firelands Boy Scout Reservation complained to township trustees about noise from two shooting ranges.

But scouting officials said they already eliminated black powder musket shooting and moved a shotgun range to the center of the property without satisfying residents.

“We feel we have an adversarial role with them — we’re not comfortable with them,” said Rick Cloud, program director for the Scouts’ Heart of Ohio Council, which serves Lorain and eight other counties.

But residents said the council has only made half-hearted efforts to soundproof the shooting range near Gore Orphanage Road, and more could be done.

Deborah Banyas, who runs River Dog Studio several hundred yards away from the shooting range, said the noise seems worse after a metal roof was installed years ago.

Her husband, Terry Speer, also an artist, told trustees that residents offered to pay for soundproofing, but there was no response from the council. He said people have tape recordings of automatic gunfire coming from the site.

“I don’t think the Boy Scouts have acted in good faith,” Speer said.

Cloud, Banyas and Speer were among about 25 people who attended the meeting.

Cloud said no one is permitted to shoot automatic or semiautomatic weapons. He said the Scouts tried to soundproof the range near Banyas that is used for .22-caliber rifles and that neighbors put loudspeakers on the edge of the property and cursed in the presence of children.

Banyas said the loudspeakers were used only once, on July 4 weekend.

Speer acknowledged using a “rather nasty” word to camp Ranger Dan Thomas while calling him a liar, but Speer said no children heard him.

Lorain County Sheriff’s Deputy J.D. Rico, who attended the meeting, said no one called the Sheriff’s Office about the loudspeakers on July 4. He distributed copies of various laws at the meeting and said he would have taken anyone to jail for persisting in disorderly conduct if they refused to remove the loudspeakers. The township does not have a noise ordinance, but excessive noise after 9 p.m. could be considered disturbing the peace, Rico said.

As the meeting progressed, Assistant County Prosecutor Gerald Innes advised trustees about whether the shooting range is a protected grandfathered use, which means it is exempt from township zoning laws because it predates them.

Innes said modifications to the range might put its protected grandfathered use in doubt, but he couldn’t say at this time. He said residents could file a complaint and the prosecutor’s office would investigate, but that might mean pulling investigators off more pressing cases.

The issue could end up in court, where a judge would likely order mediation, Innes said.

Among those speaking on behalf of the Scouts was Tom Quinn of Camden Township, who said, “The children who use this enjoy it immensely.”

Resident Paula Aghajanian said, “Nobody’s suggesting you take it away.”

Trustee Ronald Baumann asked for information on when shooting takes place.

According to Cloud, shooting happens 9 a.m. to noon and 2 to 5 p.m. on weekdays during the five weeks camp is open. Children also shoot 7:30 to 9 p.m. on Wednesday nights during camp.

He said there also is shooting six to 10 Saturdays a year and one day of shooting when the Young Marines come to camp. He said some church groups also shoot there and that the camp has a nuisance permit to cull the geese population.

Trustees got a promise from both sides that they would continue talking after Speer complained that scouting officials no longer took his calls.

As the meeting drew to a close, trustee Joe Knoble expressed some hope that the dispute could be resolved.

“I hope something good will come out of this,” he said.

Contact Cindy Leise at 329-7245 or cleise@chroniclet.com.

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Bill2e
August 14, 2008, 08:11 AM
That's why we need supressors. Problem solved.

redneckdan
August 14, 2008, 08:16 AM
my thoughts exactly

ScottsGT
August 14, 2008, 08:33 AM
I sent this to Cindy, the writer:

Cindy,
I read your article about noise coming from the Boy Scout shooting range. As a reporter, maybe you could look into the use of supressors on the Boy Scouts rifles? A good suppressor can be purchased for around $300 for .22LR (as this is the largest caliber allowed by the BSA) and an additional $200 tax to be paid to the BATFE. I’m not sure about the laws of Ohio, but here in South Carolina, we use them all the time. If the residents are willing to help with the cost of sound proofing, I’m sure they would be willing to help with suppressor purchases?
Now the shotguns are going to be a problem……
Hope this helps.

Scott A. Smith
Columbia, SC
A happy suppressor owner!

MakAttak
August 14, 2008, 08:52 AM
According to Cloud, shooting happens 9 a.m. to noon and 2 to 5 p.m. on weekdays during the five weeks camp is open. Children also shoot 7:30 to 9 p.m. on Wednesday nights during camp.

He said there also is shooting six to 10 Saturdays a year and one day of shooting when the Young Marines come to camp. He said some church groups also shoot there and that the camp has a nuisance permit to cull the geese population.

How is this a problem?

Are people just scared about the shooting?

Were they sold their property unaware that a Boy Scout camp had a shooting range within earshot?

I'm so sick of people who make bad choices (moving next to a range) and then complain about it!

I'm sure they got a good deal because it was near the camp and now they complain because IT IS NEAR A BOY SCOUT CAMP!

Welcome to entitled America, litigious America, land of the whiners. This is the same sentiment that people have when they move next to a pig farm and then use the power of the state to close down the farm because THEY DON'T LIKE LIVING NEXT TO A PIG FARM!

bogie
August 14, 2008, 10:05 AM
Guys, you need a "poison pen" thing in your club by-laws, stipulating that if you ever have to close the club to shooting because of neighbor/noise complaints, it will be repurposed into either a pig or chicken farm.

TexasRifleman
August 14, 2008, 10:07 AM
But residents said the council has only made half-hearted efforts to soundproof the shooting range near Gore Orphanage Road, and more could be done.

You mean like make suppressors non-NFA so anyone could have them without breaking the bank?

I'm in.....

Handyguy
August 14, 2008, 10:07 AM
AMEN!!! That is what happened in suburban West Palm Beach, FL. years ago. Folk$ bought high buck homes near a shooting club then complained
about the noise until it was closed.

Sun195
August 14, 2008, 10:11 AM
Guys, you need a "poison pen" thing in your club by-laws, stipulating that if you ever have to close the club to shooting because of neighbor/noise complaints, it will be repurposed into either a pig or chicken farm.

Auto parts (junk) yard, feed lot or composting facility would also be a good options for the neighbors...

We have similar conflicts around here with ranges and new residents. Due diligence is apparently lacking when these people buy their homes. There's one place where someone built new homes overlooking the shotgun range. Not quite like being on the golf course. I'm sure the builder (and maybe home buyers) thought they could eventually get the range shut down if they complained long enough. Hasn't happened yet - hope they have triple-pane windows...

Drgong
August 14, 2008, 10:15 AM
I say chicken farm...or better yet, Plant crops and buy chicken waste as a fertilizer. In NC at least there not one thing you can do if one decides to farm like that ;)

ZeSpectre
August 14, 2008, 10:22 AM
Soap factory (have you ever smelled the rendering process for making natural soap?....UGH!)

btg3
August 14, 2008, 10:24 AM
I used to live in rural area and had a neighbor with a few acres behind me that was really bothered by my shooting. It was in a creek bottom that dropped off 30 feet from our homes and we shot into the bank. He complained about the noise, but that was not the real issue. Considering the frequency, duration, and decibel level experienced at the distant neighbors house, he undoubtedly was making as much or more "noise" with his mower, chainsaw, etc. So he could tolerate his noise, but not mine.

After presenting this argument to my neighbor, he agreed and admitted that gunfire un-nerved his wife.

I knew we were moving, and rather than make a bigger issue of it, decided to be a good neighbor and shoot at alternative locations until we moved.

Henry Bowman
August 14, 2008, 10:26 AM
I’m not sure about the laws of OhioSuppressors are A-OK in Ohio.

marineman
August 14, 2008, 10:30 AM
It is a matter of whether the range or the residents were there first. If the range was there first, then it is the resident's that are being inconsiderate because they should have checked and knew about the range before moving in by it. If the range was put up in the presence of the residents, then the range is being inconsiderate unless they make every effort to eliminate the sound.

bdickens
August 14, 2008, 10:34 AM
Sounds to me like a bunch of hoplophobic pansies need to find another hobby. Good grief, people! Gunfire is not all that loud from "several hundred yards away."

MakAttak
August 14, 2008, 10:38 AM
It is a matter of whether the range or the residents were there first. If the range was there first, then it is the resident's that are being inconsiderate because they should have checked and knew about the range before moving in by it. If the range was put up in the presence of the residents, then the range is being inconsiderate unless they make every effort to eliminate the sound.

From the article:

As the meeting progressed, Assistant County Prosecutor Gerald Innes advised trustees about whether the shooting range is a protected grandfathered use, which means it is exempt from township zoning laws because it predates them.

Innes said modifications to the range might put its protected grandfathered use in doubt, but he couldn’t say at this time. He said residents could file a complaint and the prosecutor’s office would investigate, but that might mean pulling investigators off more pressing cases.

So here's the irony: Since the range was there first (as suggested by this quote), it is grandfathered in so the county can't touch it.

However, IF they make changes to mitigate sound, the county can now claim it is new construction subject to their zoning laws.

I wonder why the Scouts are reluctant to do anything to the range?...

everallm
August 14, 2008, 10:38 AM
You want an evil, lingering stench you want a leather tanning yard.

Or you could offer it to the FBI or a university with a good forensics department for a body farm. This is where corpses, human and otherwise are left in various differing environmental conditions to allow detailed analysis and training in decomposition etc......:evil:

slow944
August 14, 2008, 10:44 AM
Same thing happened when the DFW airport was built. Some developer years later came in and put up expensive homes and then eveybody started complaining about the jet noise. Go Figure. Now we not only have sheep we have whiney sheep

RancidSumo
August 14, 2008, 12:12 PM
How load can a 22LR possibly be? Even shottguns aren't that load especially several hundred yards away.

Aran
August 14, 2008, 12:39 PM
I can shoot my 10/22 without hearing protection without it bothering me, that's about how loud .22LR can be.

Justin
August 14, 2008, 12:45 PM
If you're shooting a 10/22 without hearing protection, YOU ARE DAMAGING YOUR HEARING. It doesn't matter if it hurts or not. The decibel level of a .22 LR is still high enough to cause damage.

Mt Shooter
August 14, 2008, 12:49 PM
Were they sold their property unaware that a Boy Scout camp had a shooting range within earshot?

I'm so sick of people who make bad choices (moving next to a range) and then complain about it!


Amen!

He said people have tape recordings of automatic gunfire coming from the site.


I'll bet, perhaps they where watching Rambo at the time of this recording?

pappy
August 14, 2008, 01:41 PM
He said people have tape recordings of automatic gunfire coming from the site.

Huh?? At a Boy Scout camp?? Somehow, I really can't believe this!

Aran
August 14, 2008, 01:46 PM
If you're shooting a 10/22 without hearing protection, YOU ARE DAMAGING YOUR HEARING. It doesn't matter if it hurts or not. The decibel level of a .22 LR is still high enough to cause damage.

I said I can, not that I do it regularly. Ear plug fell out as I started to shoot one day. I'm half deaf anyhow, though.

FFMedic
August 14, 2008, 02:44 PM
When I worked at Seven Ranges a few years ago the Ranger there was about 70 and had worked at Firelands in his twenties, I doubt the homes came second.

Having run the line at a Boy Scout rifle and shotgun range I find it impossible to believe that even a dozen .22s are really "loud" at any reasonable range. Even the shotguns you could barely hear past 200 yards.

This type of stuff drives me nuts.

FFMedic

ColinthePilot
August 14, 2008, 03:13 PM
Attacking adult gun enthusiasts and their ranges is hoplophobic and petty enough. Going after a Boy Scout range? Come on! Thats like trying to get a school shut down because you don't like the noise from recess.
I got my first exposure to shooting with BSA, first with BB guns, then .22's. that was 10-11 years ago. I can't imagine a safer or more positive way to introduce kids to shooting sports. They even did a demo one night of why the safety rules are so important by taking a shotgun (i think the camp had 20ga) and shooting fruit and a full commercial sized can of tomato juice. Such a positive program in young men's lives, and these people just want to complain it away. :barf:

Aran
August 14, 2008, 03:45 PM
Heh, they wouldn't let me participate in anything relating to guns when I was in Boy Scouts. I barely got permission for archery.

(I was "that kid" for some reason.)

rtroha
August 14, 2008, 04:42 PM
Here a Cleveland Plain Dealer article about the situation. The camp was there fifty years before they moved in.

Camp Executive Director Barry Norris said the camp has been there for more than 60 years and the Scouts have worked hard to be good neighbors. The shooting ranges are needed so the Scouts can qualify for merit badges.

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2008/08/neighbors_target_boy_scout_gun.html#more

El Tejon
August 14, 2008, 04:44 PM
noise from two shooting ranges

Hmmm, maybe a solution would be to move suppressors to Title I with federal preemption.

SoCalShooter
August 14, 2008, 04:49 PM
This is happening to our range too. Let me guess the scouts range was there before the housing developed and these people bought houses next to a shooting range.

ArmedBear
August 14, 2008, 04:51 PM
SoCal, where is your range?

This was our solution...

That big building is a 100 yard indoor range.

http://www.project2000range.com/images/View%20from%20above.JPG

http://www.project2000range.com/

SoCalShooter
August 14, 2008, 04:56 PM
South bay rod and gun :) Just down the street...or the 94:)

we have sound and ricochet issues. We are getting those resolved though.

ArmedBear
August 14, 2008, 05:00 PM
I think you have "big fat liar" issues, from what I've heard. The could have at least claimed a rifle round landed a mile away...

I'm glad to hear you're getting these things dealt with. We just got through our conditional use permit renewal process; we essentially have to provide a natural reserve on our property, at our expense, for the privilege of using some of the property we supposedly own. Grrr.

Our clubs have a lot of mutual members, and I'm on the P2K board of directors, so we try to keep up on these things. Living in fear, ah, isn't it great?

SoCalShooter
August 16, 2008, 02:33 PM
I know I know, the guy used to be a member of the range and he helped the range buy the property not to mention the artist your talking about should not have built her darned house there. The last report was a 50bmg round landed on someones property, but slowly we are getting things fixed, we only have 7 volunteers to work at the range, in a club of 2000+

CliffH
August 16, 2008, 11:53 PM
I do wish the Scouts well in this matter.

I've seen private airports and car & motorcycle race tracks shut down because of neighbor complaints. Even heard of motorcycle riding on private property being banned in one county.

All of those were there prior to the neighbors moving in - some for decades.

skinewmexico
August 17, 2008, 12:20 AM
Artists. That should be the key word in the first post. Bet they moved in a few years ago, and set about trying to make the area like the place they moved from. Morons. If you move somewhere knowing what is around, be it an airport, gunrange, or refinery, you should forfeit your right to complain.

bgeddes
August 17, 2008, 01:17 AM
As an Eagle Scout, I used to work at a Scout Summer camp. The rifle range was one of the quietest places. Zero horseplay, zero talking out of turn, all actions were dictated by the range master, period. Everywhere else was total chaos at times. After the 'fire at will' command, ten little bolt action .22lrs might sound like 'automatic fire', but they were the slowest and safest pieces we could find.

The good news is, many important folks in politics seems to be attached to the scouts in some way. Let's hope that holds true here.

Psywarrior13
August 17, 2008, 01:39 AM
These "Artists" are the kind of people that really grind my gears... Expect the world to conform to them. Instead of complaining about the noise... I know, this may sound crazy. Go see what is really going on there. See what the scouts are learning, safety, responsibility. Find out how responsibly the scouts act around firearms. Every shot I hear from a BSA range, just sounds like boys maturing into responsible young men, one round at a time.

Plus maybe they could pick up some of the brass and make a nice sculpture or something or whatever they do....

LemmyCaution
August 17, 2008, 06:49 AM
Gee whiz, skinewmexico and Psywarrior13, you're painting the word 'artist' with a pretty broad brush there. Before you go and turn this into a class warfare or Dem v. Rep thread, and get it closed, maybe you'd like to hear that I'm an artist (or at least I am being paid full time to create art 4 months of the year. The rest of the year I'm a construction worker…). I also have a 100M range in my back yard. My girlfriend is a writer. We both enjoy shooting. Our 'neighbor' (I put neighbor in quotes because we've only seen him around 2 weekends so far this year) up the road doesn't like the sound of our shooting. Guess what? He's a Republican stockbroker. Go figure. Dude spent $2MM renovating his farm house, and now he never goes there.

So go ahead and be smug, condescending and believe you and your ilk to be the sole defenders of civil liberties. It's said that artists frequently have superior fine motor skills and eyesight compared with the general population. Stands to reason some of us might also be pretty good shots.

Mr_Rogers
August 17, 2008, 11:08 AM
Good one Lemmy,
One of the last holdouts of stupidity on this forum is the gut-reaction "must be the darn ______ !!! (add favorite hate group)" crowd.

I personally know of several ranges that are under the same pressure as the Scout range and the pressure is not from individuals. The pressure is from real-estate developers and people who have moved into million dollar developments. One developer offered to relocate a range for free to get planning permission then refused to follow through on the deal after he had built his houses.

SoCalShooter
August 19, 2008, 03:30 PM
I was not singling out artists. I was just telling bear who the person was behind our range.

SSN Vet
August 19, 2008, 04:00 PM
this is going to be the fate of every outdoor range in the country....

at the rod n' gun where I shoot (which has been there forever) some genious developer built a condo. complex right next door.

years later...you-guessed it....they're all squaking about the noise. Especially the next generation who bought into the place not realizing what was next door.

the way our club has addressed it has been two fold...

1. bring in NRA consultant and make SURE the range is as safe as it can be (i.e. really tall berms and no rounds landing off the property, timber lane dividers to prevent an accident on the range, and a new fence w/ cypher lock.)

2. they don't budge an inch on the noise. Basically, they were there first and it's to bad if you don't like it.

SoCalShooter
August 19, 2008, 04:13 PM
Thats what our range has had to do is send our club officers to NRA range school basically and have the NRA consult it. Also developers are unscrupulous, and people dont do their home work either. But squeaky wheel gets the oil. Not to mention the fact that common sense in the general populace is..well dead.

Zundfolge
August 19, 2008, 04:15 PM
Ok its a Boy Scout range, as in The Boy Scouts of America.

I bet you that at least one of the complainers are gay or otherwise support the gay political communities call to destroy the BSA.

These things are rarely about the noise and almost always about politics.

SoCalShooter
August 19, 2008, 04:21 PM
Well no matter what they're disposition sexually its all about just eliminating the sport for these people. Thats why we have to fight them at all corners.

Aran
August 19, 2008, 04:37 PM
I bet you that at least one of the complainers are gay or otherwise support the gay political communities call to destroy the BSA.

THOSE HOMOS AND THEIR AGENDAS! :cuss:


Seriously? Is that what you honestly believe?

Zundfolge
August 19, 2008, 04:47 PM
Seriously? Is that what you honestly believe?
Yes, the ACLU has sued the Boy Scouts of America repeatedly on behalf of gay rights groups. The BSA has been targeted by many leftist groups (the gays are just the louder ones)

I also specified gay POLITICAL communities. Most of the gays I know don't have any beef with the BSA.

So I would not at all be surprised to find that the attempt to close this BSA range was not motivated (at least in part) by gay politics.

Aran
August 19, 2008, 05:32 PM
Have you considered maybe it's because there's a problem with the BSA?

(Hint: There is.)

LemmyCaution
August 19, 2008, 05:39 PM
@Zundfolge-

So, uh, how do you exfoliate all those scabs on your knuckles? Or are furnace gloves part of your sartorial routine?

But, anyway, I can say that I have lived within a couple hundred yards of a few more or less formal ranges in my time. The good ones didn't bother me and kept the hours to the general business day. The one bad one was sighted such that all sound was channeled toward the neighbors, but away from the landowner's house, and allowed pretty much anyone on the property to shoot from twilight to well after dusk. The big problem came when the formal range in a larger town was shut down by its neighbors. Then everyone, including the PDs from every neighboring town, came to my neighbor's. It went from maybe 10 shooters a day, and generally single shot target shooting/sighting in for deer season to non-stop semi-auto fire from dawn to dusk six or seven days a week.

I generally like the sound of gunfire, but it does interrupt the dinner conversation, when you're eating on the back porch in summer. Not as much as the other neighbor's riding mower, but how many times can one mow one's lawn, per week?

Aran
August 19, 2008, 05:44 PM
Everyone in my neighborhood picks a different day of the week, so... every day.

Zundfolge
August 19, 2008, 05:55 PM
@Zundfolge-

So, uh, how do you exfoliate all those scabs on your knuckles? Or are furnace gloves part of your sartorial routine?
Yes, because everyone that doesn't agree with the ACLU and Lambda Legal are nothing but knuckle dragging troglodytes :rolleyes:

I'm not going to argue the BSA's position on gays here, I'm not a boy scout, a gay or a parent so I could care less, I was merely pointing out to all those that seem to think some sort of sound mitigation is going to make the people trying to close the range down go away that this isn't about noise, this is about gun rights and/or political opposition to the existence of the BSA.

GLM
August 19, 2008, 06:10 PM
I would guess that Zundfolge is correct in stating that the complaints are motivated more by a dislike for the BSA as a whole than the noise. Those who would dismiss that possibility as being merely "homophobic" are wearing blinders. As it should be in any free society, the BSA as an organization and each individual member has the right to chose with whom they associate. If that is "a problem", then I hope it is never rectified.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
August 19, 2008, 06:18 PM
Ahhh, wouldn't that be win-win - the residents paying for a small boatload of suppressors? :)

Guns and more
August 19, 2008, 08:41 PM
Her husband, Terry Speer, also an artist
You'll never make artists happy.

However, if you were in San Francisco and the "dykes on bikes" had a Harley rally next door, they'd be fine with that.
Or am I being insensitive?

Aran
August 19, 2008, 09:06 PM
Sometimes a motorcycle is more pleasing of a sound than gunfire.

bhp9mm
August 19, 2008, 10:14 PM
they need too move if they dont like it or shut up

LemmyCaution
August 21, 2008, 05:16 AM
I'm not going to argue the BSA's position on gays here, I'm not a boy scout, a gay or a parent so I could care less, I was merely pointing out to all those that seem to think some sort of sound mitigation is going to make the people trying to close the range down go away that this isn't about noise, this is about gun rights and/or political opposition to the existence of the BSA.

Well, that's great that you're not going to argue the BSA's position on homosexuality, because the mention of it on this thread is:

1: Off-topic.
2: Not High Road.
3: Really exposing your mouthbreathing ignorance and single issue reactionary bigotry, and somebody needs to call you on it. No one here needs to hear your opinions on homosexuality or homosexual culture, and nowhere in the original post nor any subsequent news of the subject is opposition to the BSA itself mentioned. You injected it into the discourse, and you were way off base to so do.

And just to reiterate where I stand on the actual topic of the thread, the BSA seems to be completely in the right here, and the neighbors wrong. I think there's a Free Market® approach to this that will make everyone happy:

I'm sure the neighbors all appreciate having a lot of undeveloped land (i.e.- a scout camp) near their houses, but don't like the disturbance created by the actual scouting (i.e.- marksmanship training). Thus, the neighbors can PAY the BSA not to scout on their land, and the BSA can use that money to pay for range time elsewhere, or however they see fit. And the fee the neighbors pay should be high enough to make it really sting for them, and probably also subsidize other BSA activities.

It's just like the flatlanders who come up here and like to live next to the scenic view of a 19th century dairy farm, but don't like the smell of manure or the sound of tractors. If they want the farm, but not the farming, they can pay the farmer not to farm, and pay enough to keep the farmer on his land, and send his kids to college, too.

Otherwise, they can go soak…

This thread will close in… 3… 2… 1…

Dravur
August 21, 2008, 10:17 AM
Have you considered maybe it's because there's a problem with the BSA?

(Hint: There is.)

Hint... There is not. They are a private organization and can allow any members they like.

As to the range. They were there first and the Neighbors can go pound sand. I hope the BSA stands up to these arrogant whiners. I also hope they start a weekly .50 cal shoot in honor of these "artists".

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