Question on selling...


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stevek
August 14, 2008, 11:03 AM
I am thinking about selling a four-six of our pistols and a rifle or two. If I do put them up for sale, will this be an issue with any government agency for selling them without my being a FFL holder? All local, state, and federal laws for private sales will be scrupulously followed, but I want to make sure that I won't have any "surprise" visitors. Thanks.

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jr45
August 14, 2008, 11:21 AM
If you follow the laws, you'll be fine. Here in Virginia, FTF sales require no paper work, just look at their I.D. (to verify age and residence) and sell.

just carl
August 14, 2008, 12:21 PM
Be real carefull of the buyers. Don't try to use the internet since you could not possibly know who you are selling to. Remember that although some things may be legal in your area of the country, they may well be completely illigal elswhere. For example if you sold a gun to a person in Chicago, they and you would be breaking about a million laws. Slight exageration, but there are a lot of them here. In Illinois it seams there are gun laws that differ every ten feet it feels like so you really have to know who you are selling to.

stevek
August 14, 2008, 12:45 PM
Thanks for the replies. My primary concern is regarding the number of sales. In NJ each buyer will have to have a pistol purchase permit, and Firearm ID card. Out of state sales will be shipped FFL to FFL. I'm just wanting to make sure that the .gov doesn't view me as needing a personal FFL to sell 4-6 pistols...

texas bulldog
August 14, 2008, 12:49 PM
i would be wary of saying anything at all about what might be legal/illegal in new jersey. you really need to find some state-specific information about FTF sales.

230RN
August 14, 2008, 12:52 PM
Yes. Once again, for all posters who have no locality info in their profiles:

Where are you?

Smokey Joe
August 14, 2008, 12:53 PM
Stevek--You don't say in what state you'd be doing the selling, however in all but the most restrictive locales (Chicago, California, New York City, and Illinois come to mind) FTF sales are completely unregulated.

The party hands you the cash, you hand them the firearm, you smile and part ways, and that's that. No Federal paperwork on a FTF sale. It has to be a resident of your state, though. And some states expect you to collect sales tax and hand it over to them, although AFAIK there's no effective method of enforcing that.

For your own peace of mind I suggest that a bill of sale be used, stating the buyer's and the seller's identity, naming the goods and the amount of $$. I include the document that I use; you make 2 copies, both parties sign both copies, and both parties are protected. The document never becomes public unless in the future some question is raised about the sale--which IMX rarely happens.

BILL OF SALE

Buyer name: ________________________________________________________
Address: ___________________________________________________________
Seller name: ____________________________________________
Address:
________________________________________________________________
Goods: ONE Rifle (or whatever): (Describe, including make, model, and serial number)
Include any extras to be included in the sale. (Case, ammo, 'scope, whatever. Include serial numbers there, too.)
Selling price: $XXX.00.
NOTICE: GOODS ARE SOLD IN STRICTLY AS-IS CONDITION. Seller warrants that he owns the goods and has a perfect right to sell same.
Buyer warrants that (s)he is in no way legally prohibited from buying the above, and intends to use same in a completely legal manner.
NO OTHER WARRANTIES.
This document serves as a receipt for the selling price, for the buyer, and as a receipt for the listed goods for the seller.

Buyer sig: __________________________________________________________
date: _________________________

Seller sig: __________________________________________________________
date: _________________________
SELLERíS COPY
******** ******** ******** ********
(Buyer gets an identical copy) The above handily fits all on one letter-size page.

I don't sell to those below 18; I don't deal with obvious gang-bangers or such. If it smells like the goods might be stolen, or in some other sense "wrong," I just don't do business. Note that I don't include any identifier such as a drivers' license number. I feel that such would be intrusive--and, hey, I'm NOT the police, nor trying to do their job. So far, it has worked for me, and no prospective buyer nor seller has shied away from a sale because of my wanting to use this document.

Hope you can work it out.

Soybomb
August 14, 2008, 12:54 PM
Don't try to use the internet since you could not possibly know who you are selling to.
I say hogwash ;) If you're selling out of state you're shipping to a ffl, there's no one better to sell to.

stevek
August 14, 2008, 01:17 PM
My apologies, we are living in the PRNJ aka Corzinistan. Again it is just the number of sales that I am wondering about...at what number of sales does a FFL in my name become necessary? I just don't want to seem as though I'm a business, as opposed to a private individual selling some personal firearms.

Soybomb
August 14, 2008, 01:28 PM
My apologies, we are living in the PRNJ aka Corzinistan. Again it is just the number of sales that I am wondering about...at what number of sales does a FFL in my name become necessary? I just don't want to seem as though I'm a business, as opposed to a private individual selling some personal firearms.
There is no number, you need a ffl to do business. If you're not doing business, you can't have a dealer's ffl. If you were buying new guns and flipping them often or making a significant portion of your yearly income from buying and selling guns then I'd start to worry about being a dealer. But if you're truly just selling off some of your collection there is nothing to worry about.

nambu1
August 14, 2008, 01:58 PM
If you do not sell FTF, the handguns should be shipped to a FFL. Depending on the rifle, it should sent to either a FFL or C & R holder.

Majic
August 14, 2008, 02:22 PM
If you sell out of state the gun has to go thru an FFL dealer. They would know their laws and govern if, how, and when the buyer can get it from him.
Remember that although some things may be legal in your area of the country, they may well be completely illigal elswhere. For example if you sold a gun to a person in Chicago, they and you would be breaking about a million laws.
Not slight exageration but total fabrication. The FFL dealer could not complete his part of the transfer so there would be no sale even though money has changed hands.

scrat
August 14, 2008, 02:41 PM
why not go to your local gun shop. See if they can put them on display and do a consignment for you. In the end the guns will be properly sold and you dont have to worry about any paperwork.

Griz44
August 14, 2008, 05:46 PM
I advise anyone who sells a gun, even to a friend. Get a local or long distant FFL involved. Let them do the transfer. That will absolve you, the seller, of any and all responsibility of that person being legal to own and of that gun being traced back to you if it gets used illegally. You do a legal transfer for a vehicle even if the sale is to a family member. Do the same with your guns. 15 bucks buys a lot of piece of mind....

stevek
August 14, 2008, 05:57 PM
why not go to your local gun shop. See if they can put them on display and do a consignment for you. In the end the guns will be properly sold and you dont have to worry about any paperwork.


That would be a good idea except they charge a 30% commission :eek: and if they don't sell, I have to go get a NJ pistol purchase permit for each of my own guns to be returned to me, along with paying for another NICS check. We are in the process of trying to get the house ready to show/sell so we can get out of the PRNJ.

230RN
August 14, 2008, 07:00 PM
"Corzinistan"

Now that's funny. That's really funny.

Doesn't work with Schwarzeneggeristan, though.

But it does with Bloombergistan.

Smokey Joe
August 14, 2008, 07:20 PM
You do a legal transfer for a vehicle even if the sale is to a family member.There is no Constitutional right to keep and bear vehicles.I advise anyone who sells a gun, even to a friend. Get a local or long distant FFL involved. Let them do the transfer. That will absolve you, the seller, of any and all responsibility of that person being legal to own and of that gun being traced back to you if it gets used illegally.I have friends who feel this way abt. selling a firearm. It costs $$ to deal this way, but if you need it for peace of mind, well, in this case, you pays your money and you takes your peace of mind.

stevek
August 14, 2008, 07:32 PM
Doesn't work with Schwarzeneggeristan, though.


Works better if you take out the "i"...Schwarzeneggerstan :p

FCFC
August 14, 2008, 07:47 PM
I am thinking about selling a four-six of our pistols and a rifle or two. If I do put them up for sale, will this be an issue with any government agency for selling them without my being a FFL holder?
What are you selling, stevek? Any nice revolvers?

Griz44
August 14, 2008, 10:24 PM
There is no Constitutional right to keep and bear vehicles.
Very true Smokey, but let's not forget that there is no Constitutional right to keep and bear arms for individuals that have felonies and some other more specific crimes on their record. The FBI and the ATF can hand out a lot of misery to a person for selling a gun to someone who has no legal right to own one. Any seller - dealer or individual - has legal obligation to verify identity, not sell to a known illegal drug user, a mentally deficient person, a felon etc..... Believe me, I am not a lawyer or a legal adviser in any fashion. I just know what the BATFE basic rules are how much grief you can catch for screwing it up. The point being, if you are going to sell even your personal firearm, why take the risk? If you don't know the person, a few bucks for a legal transfer is just good insurance that it will never come back to haunt you.

stevek
August 15, 2008, 08:19 PM
What are you selling, stevek? Any nice revolvers?

Not at this time. Still trying to figure out exactly which pistols will get the heave-ho :o

TEDDY
August 16, 2008, 10:14 AM
why not wait until after you have moved.if the new location is to a gun friendly state your problem is solved.:rolleyes:;)

bluetopper
August 16, 2008, 10:20 AM
I do not have an FFL and I sell handguns on gunbroker.com quite frequently.

Easy and very little hassle.

SCKimberFan
August 16, 2008, 10:29 AM
Doesn't work with Schwarzeneggeristan, though.

Nope, however, The People's Republik of ********** comes to mind though.


why not wait until after you have moved.if the new location is to a gun friendly state your problem is solved.

+1. It would save a lot of headaches, unless you are moving somewhere more restrictive than Corzinistan. :uhoh:

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