[RyanM]

I'm starting to look really hard at investing my own hard-earned cash into this idea.

How many of you would actually buy 12 gauge slug ammunition which:

*Exceeds 12" penetration in properly calibrated ballistic gelatin, bare and with 4 layer denim
*Does not penetrate beyond a single interior wall, constructed of 2 layers of 5/8" drywall
*Has terminal performance roughly in between a .45 ACP JHP which expands to .729", and a reduced recoil 12 gauge slug
*Has as much recoil as Winchester's featherlight target load (which is 7/8 oz. at 980 fps)
*Has a report that's the approximate volume of a .22 LR from a rifle
*All of the above have been verified by credible sources and independent testing

But,

*Can only be used in cylinder bore shotguns (I'm not entirely sure I could make one that works through choked shotguns, though I'm definitely going to try)
*Probably costs a lot, like $2-3 per round

I have a design which I'm 99% sure will meet all of the above, but it's looking like it'll cost me about $1500 or more just to create a proof of concept.

I think there'd be significant demand, if this crazy thing works, and if I can market it well (well, okay, marketing would be the only factor, but my conscience wouldn't allow me to sell a product that don't work as advertized, and that I wouldn't be willing to use myself), but what does the internet say?

Assume it's a year from now and this stuff has been tested by the Box o' Truth, our own JE223, and some other highly respected members here, and it lives up to my expectations. Would you buy it? Do you think other people would buy it?

[NG VI]

Sure, if you could make something like that in enough bulk to get the cost down, sure. Not penetrate a single interior wall? Sounds like ninja ideas to me. Forget that little feature and you will probably be able to make better ammunition maybe cheaper.

And the .22 report might be a good thing to forget about as well.

[NG VI]

How about a 6/8-7/8 oz foster style-slug with some #4 buck packed into the hollow base and behind the slug? It would be pretty awesome! Would not fit any of your criteria, but it would be fun as all get out.

[RyanM]

Sure, if you could make something like that in enough bulk to get the cost down, sure. Not penetrate a single interior wall? Sounds like ninja ideas to me. Forget that little feature and you will probably be able to make better ammunition maybe cheaper.

And the .22 report might be a good thing to forget about as well.

Well, not penetrating a single wall while still meeting FBI minimum penetration criteria is kind of the entire idea. The low noise thing is just a side benefit.

I really am 99% sure I could successfully create a round which really does acceptably penetrate living tissue, including bone, without going through even one wall. If that doesn't work out, I am 100% sure I could do a round which stops inside the second wall. But 1 wall is the goal.

Most of the cost would be the fact that it'd necessarily be small scale, until/unless I have a lot of money. The actual cost difference between this and a regular slug, in terms of materials, is about 30 cents.

[NG VI]

Oh. Well then you've got a hell of a theory, I just don't know how a slug could reasonably be expected to break through bone and get to the delicious innards while not going through far softer and less rigid drywall, but going through tissue well which is softest and least rigid.

I'm not nay-saying, just that it sounds like it is an idea that better have good execution to take off. If the actual price difference is only 30 cents a slug, if you make a good product I'm sure you would eventually be getting enough orders to increase your scale, drop prices, and sell way more shells.

[TeamPrecisionIT]

To answer your initial questions, yes I would buy it if it truely did work as you describe. Even if it were $5 a shell.

Damian

[sevin8nin]

I don't care how much defensive ammo costs. It's my life and I don't mind paying for it.

I've never been overly concerned with the penetration of slugs. But I don't run them in my home defense shotgun. If however, you did make the slug you describe I would definitely run that in my shotgun.

[Weezy]

I had thought the general consensus was, as NG VI said, in order to penetrate people, something has to be moving with enough force to penetrate drywall. I would definitely buy these though, were they demonstrated by a reputable testing facility to perform as advertised.

[TeamPrecisionIT]

If your rounds were even $15/shell I wouldn't mind shelling out the $180 to fill my 500 with, IF they were what you are saying they can be. If it were just another 'wonderload,' then no I would not purchase them. While my life is worth every penny, those pennies can't be thrown away on BS.

Damian

[ashtxsniper]

I wouldnt buy them I like full power loads.

[DoubleTapDrew]

I would buy, but I'm skeptical about the physics of the whole thing (then again, I never did well in physics). Sounds like saying you have a hammer that'll pound a big nail through a stiff board but won't hurt your hand if you miss the nail and smack your thumb.
Is it like a breaching slug? I don't recall how those did in jello but I think they break up pretty quick on walls (or bone).

[Loomis]

I don't mean to burst your bubble, but people use number 4 buck for defense inside the house, not slugs.

Anything that won't penetrate two measly sheets of drywall probably is no good for defense. Well, I suppose you could get something to go so fast it desintegrates when hitting drywall, but you won't get that from a shotgun. At least I don't see how you could.

[Titan6]

I use slugs for defense inside of the house. My interior walls are brick and plaster but I know of others who use slugs with normal dry wall also.

If I lived in a house where penetration was a problem then I would likely use such a load if it worked. I would want to see it work first though.

[ltetmhs]

I think its a gret idea. And I would buy.

[bragood]

If it works like you say, I would buy more than 5 boxes for sure.

[The_Sheriff]

Probably but I wouldn't want to pay more than $20 and the idea would sound like it is to good to be true.

[scythefwd]

OK...
If it only got the 12" penetration, stopped in the second wall, and was light recoil, I would buy it. My wife has never shot a shotgun and that would be a good HD round for her. Me, Ill stick with something a little more manuverable (about 30 inches more manuverable as I have a 28 in barrel on it right now). I would definitely buy a couple of boxes for familiarization and one or two for HD. It would have to be vetted by a major lab though. I might, read that as small chance but there is one, accept the buick of truth.

[RyanM]

I don't mean to burst your bubble, but people use number 4 buck for defense inside the house, not slugs.

Maybe "people" who don't care about penetration in gelatin and human tissue. #4 usually underpenetrates in jello, but at the same time, it'll go through 6 layers of drywall, or 3 interior walls.

Personally, I believe you're responsible for every projectile that leaves the barrel, and that one big slug is a lot less likely to unintentionally injure someone than a bunch of buckshot. Especially people within your own house. One shot of #4 buckshot is like firing a 27 round (or more) burst from a .22 LR submachine gun. Would that really be less likely to unintentionally injure or kill someone, given that the first couple walls are almost no hinderance at all?

Anyway, this is not a frangible slug design. You'd have to shoot it at an axe head to get it to break up, and even that might not work.

The physics involved are actually pretty obvious in hindsight, but it is a very unconventional idea. I just want to try and get at least patent pending status before I post how it works.

Buckshot that penetrates over 12" in tissue but less than 2 boards of drywall would be interesting, but would actually be less effective than the slug, and also a lot more expensive.

--------------

Sounds like saying you have a hammer that'll pound a big nail through a stiff board but won't hurt your hand if you miss the nail and smack your thumb.

Now I'll have to think about that one. If I can make that work, I'll be rich for sure! :D It's really just the exact opposite of my ammo.

[Regolith]

I would buy, but I'm skeptical about the physics of the whole thing

I'm VERY skeptical. I could see maybe doing it through flesh. But through bone? I know for a fact bone is harder than wall board. I've tested that theorem out myself.

Frankly, I don't see it happening. The fact of the matter is, anything that penetrates deeply enough to be a good defense round, is going to penetrate deeply through walls as well.

[NotSoFast]

I have a unique situation. The one direction I would generally use my shotgun is in the direction of a high embankment for an overpass that would absorb the slug if it got that far. So if I used a slug it would be in that direction only.

But generally I want to use #1 shot for my primary HD loads. I would save the heavier stuff for outside, i.e. 00 Buck and slugs.

[A man with a gun!]

Well, I can buy five rounds of 00buck for about five bucks.
Little worry about neighbors and I think I can keep track of my wifes whereabouts.

I doubt I'd use anything else or pay much more.

[RyanM]

I'm VERY skeptical. I could see maybe doing it through flesh. But through bone? I know for a fact bone is harder than wall board. I've tested that theorem out myself.

Bone may be harder, but it's also much thinner and brittler, and sort of "spongy" on the inside. Dead bone is also much harder than living. Like your ribs flex and bend every time you breathe, but try bending some pork ribs.

Hit someone on the head with a hammer, and you could easily bust their head open. Hit a piece of wood with a hammer, and the best you could probably do is split it along the grain. Plywood or drywall would probably just get dented and bent, unless you hit it real hard.

Still, I do plan on testing this round with gelatin with pork ribs in front of it. If it'll punch through a dead rib and still penetrate 12+", living ribs should be no problem. Pretty sure it'll work fine.

[azhunter122]

Maybe, but would want to see some reviews on it. I see if it can't penetrate drywall its not going to work for self defense.

[NCsmitty]

IMO, your concept is not feasible. A lower powered pellet rifle will usually penetrate 1 thickness of drywall.

NCsmitty

[cpileri]

Some of the new supermaterials have different properties like hardness depending, fo rexample, wether you try to move through them fast or slow.
Similar to water, if you slowly move through it it takes very little effort. But try to move fast and it really slwos you down.

So if this slug were a 'variable density' material, and was hard when struck by something hard (or when it strikes something hard, in this case), and soft when it hits something soft; or has a hard-soft phase change on impact... as in on initial impact it becomes very hard, then immediately 'breaks down' to a liquid again; it would penetrate but disperse right afte rthat.

It could work.

C-

[alpha6164]

I just completed a Magpul Dynamics Shotgun class with Chris Costa and he went into extreme detail in use of slugs, buck etc. The #1 and only purpose for use of slug is in a long distance situation where your 00Buck's pattern is too great where risk of bystanders or hostage situation.

We did a number of drills where our guns were loaded with only buck shots, and on command we would do a combat load where a shell was taken out and a slug dropped in to take a 30-40yrd shot. He stressed that there is no reason to limit yourself to 5-8rounds of single projectile such as a slug where you can have 30rnds of 5.56 and in usually in a lighter, more compact package.

The whole purpose of shotgun is to be able to deliver multiple projectiles at the same time to deliver a devastating blow. My Benelli M4 is loaded with 00Buck:)

[RyanM]

Some of the new supermaterials have different properties like hardness depending, fo rexample, wether you try to move through them fast or slow.
Similar to water, if you slowly move through it it takes very little effort. But try to move fast and it really slwos you down.

You're over-thinking it. :p ;)

The whole purpose of shotgun is to be able to deliver multiple projectiles at the same time to hit very small, 10 pound or less animals, which are moving very quickly.

Fixed it for you.

If you want to use a shotgun only for its "intended purpose," you should stick with using birdshot against birds and small game no larger than bunny rabbits.

[Jst1mr]

If you can sell it, I will market my drywall flak jacket....

[Phil DeGraves]

Aguila markets a short 12 ga slug and duplex loads that seem to fit your criteria somewhat. They only work through fixed action shotguns (SxS, TBs and some pump guns). Low recoil, about 750 FPS. Should be a good SD/HD load.

[Regolith]

Hit someone on the head with a hammer, and you could easily bust their head open. Hit a piece of wood with a hammer, and the best you could probably do is split it along the grain. Plywood or drywall would probably just get dented and bent, unless you hit it real hard.

I've put my FIST through drywall. That's how I know bone is harder than drywall. I cannot think of any method you could use that would make a bullet penetrate bone, but not drywall.

I remain skeptical.

[RyanM]

Update: I just finished a proof-of proof of concept testing. I figured, rather than blowing $800-$1300 on something I'm only 99% sure will work, I may as well spend $30, mainly on stuff I'd need anyway, to do a very rudimentary test just to see if the physics and principles are sound.

End result, using modified commercial components, was a round which just barely penetrated 2 sheets of 1/2" drywall and bounced off the third (so it would've given a bad bruise to anyone on the other side of a wall, but nothing worse), and was able to penetrate through two 1 gallon jugs, ending up between jug 2 and 3.

That's pretty much exactly what the numbers said, for a modified slug rather than my actual concept; 1.25" penetration through drywall (I was originally counting on 5/8" pieces, but all the hardware store had was 1/2"), and about 7" penetration in jello, or 12-14" penetration through water. So it really looks like this line is worth pursuing.

My actual design, calculations say would be somewhere in the 13"-20" gelatin ballpark, for 1.25" of drywall.

Stay tuned.

[TeamPrecisionIT]

That's impressive to hear but I really want to see some video (unedited) confirming this.

Damian

[Floppy_D]

You've got my attention. And if it worked as advertised, I'd be interested.

[RyanM]

At this point, my plan is, once I have all the reloading and bullet casting crap I need, I'm not going to publish any test results myself. Any results I come up with, even if they're videoed, would be completely suspect. Like I could fire one kind of round at the gelatin or water jugs or whatever, then a completely different one at the drywall. I could do something like put all the rounds in a box and shake it up or something, but there would still be ways to falsify the results without doing anything that'd be visible on camera. If David Copperfield can make the Statue of Liberty disappear, any schmuck could make shotgun shells that are plainly different to himself, but not to a camera 15 feet away.

So, once I have a design hammered out that performs good in my own tests, and patent pending status, I'm just going to send out rounds to anyone interested in testing them, who also has the facilities to do so adequately.

[iiibdsiil]

It sounds like you made it work. It also sounds like it'd be perfect for my condo.

Definitely keep us posted.

Also, after you get the patent going, I'd call some ammo companies and see if they want to make a deal.

[RyanM]

I'm going to have to hire some pretty good lawyers, probably. I have no idea how to negotiate a licensing contract without getting ripped off.

Just completed a second test. I managed to bump the velocity down low enough that the slug stuck in the second piece of drywall. I ran out of undamaged gallon jugs, so I had to line up a bunch of pop cans full of water instead, for that test. Ended up penetrating 2 of them and denting up the 3rd one pretty bad, for like 6" of water, or 3-4" of gelatin.

That sounds really horrible, except my equations actually do predict about 5-6" gelatin penetration (but that's without layers of aluminum), for this particular slug, when it penetrates about 1.5 sheets of 1/2" (more like .46") drywall.

I'm actually using what's basically a gigantic pneumatic airgun from hell for this test. Much better control over the velocity than trying to guesstimate powder charges and stuff, and I can shoot it indoors with a stationary "silencer" made out of a bucket. That's why testing isn't taking a lot of time. It's pretty much only practical for this proof-of the proof of concept, sadly. No way I'd be able to get enough energy for the actual slug design, without buying a much bigger compressor, and using a scuba tank or fire extinguisher or something for the air tank. "Potato gun" style construction tops out at about 280 ft-lbs, with this barrel.

[tenbears]

For home defense in apartments or closely knit subdivision,I would think BB size shot will do. If you live out in the country, use what you feel is best.

[Indifferent]

Huh.