uh, how does doping improve shooting performance (N. Korea stripped of medal)


PDA






30 cal slob
August 15, 2008, 09:26 AM
whiskey tango foxtrot.

:uhoh:


North Korean shooter Kim Jong Su failed a doping test and was stripped of his silver medal in the 50-meter pistol and bronze in the 10-meter air pistol. The 31-year-old Kim was also barred from the Games, the International Olympic Committee said.

whassup wid dis?

If you enjoyed reading about "uh, how does doping improve shooting performance (N. Korea stripped of medal)" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Shung
August 15, 2008, 09:27 AM
beta-bloquants, for example..

make stress disapear, make you calm and smooth, while keeping concentration.. for example..

DJAteOhAte
August 15, 2008, 09:30 AM
I've always found that a couple of cool Schlitzes improves my shooting immensely.

Norinco982lover
August 15, 2008, 09:37 AM
so would this have a positive effect on soldiers in battle?

Neo-Luddite
August 15, 2008, 09:38 AM
In the same phisiological/mental ways it might be said to 'unfairly' improve perfromance of any athletic event.

XDShooter07
August 15, 2008, 09:39 AM
As an RN the best I can figure is that the extra hemoglobin increasing the amount of oxygen your blood can carry will increase your concentration, help you react quicker, reduce fatigue.

Neo-Luddite
August 15, 2008, 09:45 AM
so would this have a positive effect on soldiers in battle?

*MANY* soldiers have been 'doped' in one way or another before battle. The methods and substances used are usually not as subtle. In our day and age, the drug of choice for troops has usually been an amphetamine of some kind; probably NOT of much use in olympic shooting but certainly might give a soldier an edge in reaction time and short-term energy.

But of course this comes with HUGE risks of negative effects in the short and long term so our military doesn't hand out dexadrine like it did in years past--but it *IS* an option still open to military docs--flight surgeons in particular.

hso
August 15, 2008, 09:48 AM
Propranolol, what he tested positive for, is a beta-blocker that can benefit shooters. Reducing blood pressure and countering other physical symptoms of stress could improve performance.

Shung
August 15, 2008, 09:49 AM
beta blocker.. I would have bet on that for shooting.

LSU Fan
August 15, 2008, 09:53 AM
IOC chief medical official Arne Ljungqvist said he took Kim's case as "a deliberate intake" of propanolol, a blocking agent that prevents trembling and is banned only in certain sports such as shooting and archery. .....that's how

SDC
August 15, 2008, 10:06 AM
Any drug that slows your heart-beat, lowers your blood pressure, or allows you to hold your breath longer (ie. your blood can carry more oxygen, so you don't NEED to breathe) will also give a shooter an advantage.

berettaprofessor
August 15, 2008, 10:13 AM
And for those who were wondering about doping soldiers, Beta-blockers, like propanolol, slow the heart rate and lower blood pressure all right....to the point that you can't run very far or fast. It'll make you real calm right up to the point where you need to have a little panic...or a little heroism.... and then you can't.

Ric
August 15, 2008, 10:19 AM
The tube says that it helps to prevent the "shakes" when shooting.

JohnL2
August 15, 2008, 10:22 AM
mods please indulge me

An old Army marching cadence that we modified:
One, two
One-two-three-four
You can't count to five; 'cause your brain is fried- on crack, and dope, and all that (edit) you smoke.

ALL RIGHT YOU BUNCHA' WISEASSES GET DOWN AND DO PUSHUPS!!!

jackstinson
August 15, 2008, 11:30 AM
Maybe the guy takes AstraZeneca (Propranolol) for high blood pressure? Or migraines? Or stage fright? :)
Good thing I take Benicar for my high blood pressure...or I could kiss the Olympics goodbye!
It's interesting that this particular mis-usage case has already made it onto Wikipedia under "Beta-blocker".

Guns and more
August 15, 2008, 12:08 PM
Maybe the guy takes AstraZeneca (Propranolol) for high blood pressure? Or migraines? Or stage fright?

So what? Then his Olympic carer is ended. You don't have a constitutional right to be in the Olympics.

anythingshiny
August 15, 2008, 12:13 PM
perhaps the lowered BP and slowed HR would give him the advantage of shooting between heartbeats?!

cuz..i mean.. i know at the range i wait between my heartbeats to press...hahahah

jackstinson
August 15, 2008, 01:02 PM
So what? Then his Olympic carer is ended. You don't have a constitutional right to be in the Olympics.
IT WAS A JOKE. Lighten up....maybe take some Propranolol to bring down that blood pressure. :)
Sheeeeeeeeezzzzzz. And folks wonder why so many of us tend to just lurk.
BTW: I doubt North Koreans have constitutional rights to much of anything.

SomeKid
August 15, 2008, 02:22 PM
Thing is, if you have normal blood pressure and you took that, it may cause it to go too low, which I would think would hinder shooting greatly. I know that is one of the reasons nurses on my floor do not give any drugs in that class of drugs without taking blood pressure beforehand. Low blood pressure can cause quite a few problems as well.

Rembrandt
August 15, 2008, 03:22 PM
I thought blood doping was the procedure where you donated blood, they added more oxygen, then transferred it back into your system?

waterhouse
August 15, 2008, 03:35 PM
I thought blood doping was the procedure where you donated blood, they added more oxygen, then transferred it back into your system?

I think that is how they did it a long time ago. The term is commonly used to refer to things like EPO (you probably heard a lot about this when Lance Armstrong was doing the Tour), which is injected to bump up your red blood cells (more oxygen), and doping has pretty much come to be any tampering with your blood that increases performance.

ETA:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_doping
For those interested in military applications, wiki has a paragraph about doping in military use:

Senior nutritionist at the Australian Defence Science and Technology Organization, Chris Forbes-Ewan, is quoted as saying that unlike in sport, "all's fair in love and war".

Jayman
August 15, 2008, 03:56 PM
For a while I took some Claritin-D 24 before any major IDPA or USPSA match. Helped me immensely on any short range course of fire where speed was paramount. Kind of screwed me on distant shots, however. ;)

bogie
August 15, 2008, 03:59 PM
Erythropoietin (jeeze, it's been years since I spelled it out) is what they give to folks who are doing high dose radiation and chemo, to make them grow more red cells... Could be a good thing for folks engaging in endurance stuff. Probably doesn't matter to sprinter types.

Odds are the guy didn't report that he was on any kind of blood pressure med, etc., so when he tested positive for it, fine. If you don't see how something like that will affect shooting, you -really- need to go back to your video games, or go tell your cube manager that you want to bother a different forum.

I wonder - would huffing O2 be legit for a rifle/handgun competition?

Werewolf
August 15, 2008, 04:05 PM
Early this summer my Doctor told me to take Zyrtec when my allergies started acting up.

Major improvement in shooting ability noted when I happen to take one before going to the range.

Wierd but it definitely helps me on the range.

gbran
August 15, 2008, 04:32 PM
I've not tried it shooting, but I've found that I can shoot pool better after about 2 beers. Much more than that and my game goes down hill fast.

On days when I go to the range for serious paperwork, I don't drink coffee or cokes or serious amounts of sugar. I've even taken the herb Kava Kava to relax me. It seems to work.

esmith
August 15, 2008, 04:36 PM
If you drink lots of coffee or soft drinks that have caffeine and attempt to shoot, you might find that it's harder to stay on target. This is because your heart rate has been raised and it's a lot harder to relax. The reverse will be the lower your heart rate the easier it will be to relax.

Justin
August 15, 2008, 05:02 PM
Odds are the guy didn't report that he was on any kind of blood pressure med, etc., so when he tested positive for it, fine. If you don't see how something like that will affect shooting, you -really- need to go back to your video games, or go tell your cube manager that you want to bother a different forum.

He's North Korean. I bet you his handlers put him on the stuff. If you're a N. Korean citizen, its not like you can just nip on down to Walgreens for a prescription, even if you are on the Olympic team.

I wonder - would huffing O2 be legit for a rifle/handgun competition?

IIRC, last year the IOC issued a ruling stating that they considered the use of oxygen tents to be an artificial form of enhancement and therefore illegal for use by competitors.

No ruling against training at high altitude though. (Good thing, given the location of the US Olympic Training Center.)

Owen Sparks
August 15, 2008, 05:10 PM
A lot of really good pool players like to have a drink before playing a serious game. Not to get drunk or even to get a noticeable buzz, just enough to take the edge off the nervousness and jitters. I can see how a couple of beers could steady the hand of someone who is high strung and nervous. Beta blockers have been used by some IPSC shooters for the same reason.

Navy joe
August 15, 2008, 05:16 PM
My experience with doping is limited to 30 ounces of Hardee's coffee before any early morning USPSA match and a good dose of multivitamins the night before. Works great! Beyond that I can see how anything that would take the jitters off would help greatly, I know I ski way better on one beer than sober. 3 or more, not so much!

bogie
August 15, 2008, 05:17 PM
Back when I used to throw darts for money, I found that I played better after two beers.

And maintaining, that basically meant six beers over the course of a longish evening.

More than that, performance dropped.

HB
August 15, 2008, 05:50 PM
I've heard a lot of stories about how drugs improve or worsen your scores. Most of the people I shoot 3 position with say that they shoot better while sick with a light cold. It's hard to tell if they just block out stimuli easier or if it's the medicine they took.

A lowered heart rate would be a huge help, especially on prone, but with a properly fitting jacket, it's not a problem. Aside from the fact that you are cheating, the biggest problem with drugs+precision shooting is most drugs that mellow you out also destroy your ability to make good decisions fast enough. Almost all serious shooters don't smoke, eat or drink sugary foods, or eat heavy meals before shooting, but everybody has their own superstitions.

HB

Old Fuff
August 15, 2008, 05:50 PM
Neither 50 meter Free Pistol nor 10 Meter Air Pistol matches involve anything in the way of fast shooting, but precise, slow-fire accuracy is absolutely important. Therefore in the matter of drugs, think of they're affect in this context. The winner is usually someone with excelent eyesight who is as steady as a rock, and can stay that way over the entire course of fire.

Davo
August 15, 2008, 06:42 PM
Ive heard polilcians take beta-blockers to keep em looking cool as well.

blackcash88
August 15, 2008, 06:50 PM
I thought blood doping was the procedure where you donated blood, they added more oxygen, then transferred it back into your system?

Not quite. They don't add oxygen. The athlete does that after the fact. Your typical blood dopers are endurance athletes like swimmers, runners, cyclists, etc. What they do is, before a competition, they have blood drawn. They spin the red blood cells out in a centrifuge and store them until just before the competition. In the mean time, the body has replaced the donated blood so they have a "full tank". Just before the event, they inject the red blood cells back into their blood stream providing them with a higher capacity to process oxygen. Red blood cells contain hemoglobin, which is what the oxygen binds to, so more cells = more oxygen. Kind of like a supercharger on a car. More oxygen down the "throat" means more fuel can be burned at the same time (maintaining the same mixture ratio) so more power can be made. Combine the extra oxygen with the massive amounts of calories (fuel) they consume and they can go longer, harder, faster, etc. This is illegal because it's dangerous. The extra cells thicken the blood, thereby raising blood pressure. Combine that with the high pulse rates during the competition and people can and have "blown a seal" resulting in a heart attack, aneurysm, etc.

At first when they said "doping", I thought blood doping, but that would seem counterintuitive to shooting because it raises the blood pressure.

anarchris
August 15, 2008, 06:59 PM
this is why we should just legalize pot, I don't smoke it personally though.
smoking pot greatly enhanched my learning to play guitar.
I imagine long distance sharpshooting would be a blast too if stoned.

blackcash88
August 15, 2008, 07:04 PM
They probably wouldn't allow pot smoking if it was legalized. A lot of the forbidden things they take/do are not actually illegal in the eyes of the law. It's the I.O.C. that makes the rules that can't be broken. Heck, you can be busted for having too much caffeine, testosterone, etc in your system. Nothing actually illegal about that or blood doping.

Old Fuff
August 15, 2008, 07:26 PM
The handguns used in the 50 meter slow fire match are called "free pistols," because they are free of most design restrictions - other then being .22 RF and equiped with iron sights. Trigger pulls on these single-shot pistols is often set as low as 1 or 2 oz. That being the case I wouldn't want to be shooting with a competitor that was stoned, regardless of the substance that cause the condition. For that matter I wouldn't want to be on the same shooting range with stoned shooters. Playing a guitar isn't likely to get anyone killed.

Phydeaux642
August 15, 2008, 07:34 PM
Playing a guitar isn't likely to get anyone killed.

Although, I've heard some guitar playing that might get the job done.:evil:

Boomerang
August 15, 2008, 07:46 PM
He was caught cheating plain and simple.
If he really had a medical condition, he would be given a clearance for an alternative medication.
I've heard of some people eating a turkey sandwich (zins) before shooting.
I've also heard that some people eat Siberian Ginseng for some similar reason.
There is no shortcut to winning a precision shooting event. I imagine that this guy who had to train for a very long time, was doped by his coach. I don't see shooters at that level looking for ways to cheat.

Justin
August 15, 2008, 07:55 PM
The handguns used in the 50 meter slow fire match are called "free pistols," because they are free of most design restrictions - other then being .22 RF and equiped with iron sights. Trigger pulls on these single-shot pistols is often set as low as 1 or 2 oz. That being the case I wouldn't want to be shooting with a competitor that was stoned, regardless of the substance that cause the condition. For that matter I wouldn't want to be on the same shooting range with stoned shooters. Playing a guitar isn't likely to get anyone killed.

Free Pistol Fun Fact: The rules actually state that the trigger must be on the gun. This was after some guy back in the 1960's rigged one up that could be fired with a device similar to the cable-actuated buttons you used to see for remotely shooting a camera.

SFvet
August 15, 2008, 09:11 PM
Benzodiazapines would - but not the "doping" that they use in sports. Doping compounds are strength enhancing drugs and more of an upper than a mild sedative - which would help a shooter control shakes, breath control and allow he/she to make the shot.

Buck Nekkid
August 15, 2008, 10:02 PM
All this being said, did the disqualification result in medals for U.S. shooters??

jkingrph
August 15, 2008, 10:19 PM
[QUOTE]*MANY* soldiers have been 'doped' in one way or another before battle. The methods and substances used are usually not as subtle. In our day and age, the drug of choice for troops has usually been an amphetamine of some kind; probably NOT of much use in olympic shooting but certainly might give a soldier an edge in reaction time and short-term energy.

But of course this comes with HUGE risks of negative effects in the short and long term so our military doesn't hand out dexadrine like it did in years past--but it *IS* an option still open to military docs--flight surgeons in particular.

I do not know about now, but during Vietnam we used to prepare "hi-flight" kits for flight crews deploying to SEA, usually a seconal to put them to sleep the night before the filght and a couple of dexadrine, one for take off morning, and one to be used just prior to landing. Some of the U-2 pilots received same treatment . There used to be stockpiles of stimulants in what they called war readiness materials....

Huddog
August 15, 2008, 10:23 PM
Doesn't really matter if the substance "helps" him or not. The governing agency says the substance is ban therefore he can not use it.

the foot
August 15, 2008, 10:23 PM
Hey, beta blockers work like a charm to steady a guy out. Helps for high blood pressure too, in my case.

akulahawk
August 15, 2008, 10:32 PM
Non-selective β-blockers like propranlolol can be prescribed to reduce essential tremors. They will reduce hypertension, cardiac output, heart rate, etc. For any sport that requires you to stand motionless, this would be a performance enhancing drug.

In terms of giving it to patients, if someone gets it that has a normal blood pressure, it can drop that pressure below a safe level... which is not good, hence the reason for checking vitals prior to administering it.

From what I just found, the Bronze medal in the 10M air pistol went to Jason Turner, of the USA.

Alcohol, in fairly low doses, also can effectively reduce tremors, which also improves some accuracy. It's also a performance enhancing drug in that context. It doesn't impair anything, but it does smooth out the tremors. It also metabolizes pretty quickly and unfortunately, it's also extremely easy to step beyond the point where it "helps" performance and into the realm where it impairs. The β-blockers don't metabolize as quickly and they're easier to control the dose and effects.

SFvet
August 15, 2008, 10:44 PM
Vitals can also vary quite a bit depending on the output load of the neurotransmiters. Anxiety, mood disorders etc. can all mess with HR and BP which is why benzos may be a better enhancement than beta blockers.

Neo-Luddite
August 15, 2008, 11:44 PM
jkingrph--I've heard that is still true--in fact it's pretty much just flat-fact; there was a friendly fire bombing that involved Canadian soldiers not too long ago--and US pilots on speed. Unlcear whether judgment was impaired. Probably something other than seconal these days--but the still the Dexies--'go pills and slow pills'.

To loop back to shooting, if you're a regular coffee drinker--try drawing some nice and straght lines freehand (with your shooting hand) on paper before and after your first jolt of the day. Most people will get surprising results.

Shung
August 16, 2008, 06:47 AM
today a second North korean shooter got caught..

209
August 16, 2008, 07:13 AM
So... there is obviously a problem with high blood pressure among NK shooters. :p

blackcash88
August 16, 2008, 11:40 AM
our military doesn't hand out dexadrine like it did in years past--but it *IS* an option still open to military docs--flight surgeons in particular.

Ah, yes... I remember the "go pills".

http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2002/021028-speed1.htm

Davo
August 19, 2008, 03:09 AM
They just need to take it easy mayhaps...

JohnKSa
August 19, 2008, 03:15 AM
All this being said, did the disqualification result in medals for U.S. shooters??Yes, it bumped Jason Turner of the U.S. up from fourth to bronze in Men's 10M Air Pistol.

http://www.nbcolympics.com/shooting/news/newsid=215824.html#shooter+fails+doping+test+u+s+gets+bronzetoday a second North korean shooter got caught..The disqualified shooter participated in 2 events and medaled in both, but I can't find any information on a second NK shooter being disqualified. Anyone got a link?

If you enjoyed reading about "uh, how does doping improve shooting performance (N. Korea stripped of medal)" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!