[Blues Brother]

Hello again people! I have an issue here. I am concerned about my mom since my dad recently passed away. I dont think she would be comfortable carrying a gun, and quite frankly I dont think she could use it if she needed to. so thats a bad idea. I dont know how to say this, but mom isnt exactly ugly. so I am worried about thugs, perverts, theives, etc.....so I am wanting to find some sort of method of self defense for her. I know NOTHING about Mace or personal protection sprays. but I am thinking this might be a good idea for her to carry in case of an attacker. what are some ideas you foks can provide? what are good types of sprays? where can I get them? I just want her to be able to ward off an attacker somehow so she can get away and get help, call 911 or just get away to safety.

what can you folks tell me about this? mace or any other mode of protection?

I am open to any suggestions.

Thank you! :)

[ZMP_CTR]

Freeze +P. I used it when I was deputy and it worked great on all but one person.

http://us.st12.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/urdefense_2014_24165820

[ZMP_CTR]

Another good idea is to see if your mom is interested in a self defense class. They can be great if you find a good instructor.

[TDSUS]

If your choices are sprays and such the best by far is the Kimber Lifeact Guardian Angel units. Simple to operate and have an incredible effective range.

[Blues Brother]

That kimber Lifeact looks interesting. I check out their website. that looks like quite a defense spray!

[NorestRDS]

rule number 1 when giving a woman pepper spray . you more then likely have more of a interest of her carrying then she has to carry it.

do not get something to throw in the purse or pocket . she will forget it loose it not be able to get to it in time. the kimber life act is a gimick and only has 2 shots . what if she has 3 attackers and misses both times?

while Fox Labs is the best for 2oz and up canisters you need to get her a keychain modle . something that is always in her hands , wont get lost and she will see and acknowledge everyday.

get a her The Sabre Red or Sabre 3 in 1 keychain model .

Sabre Red is 2,000,000 SHU over 200,000 out of nozzle shu .
1.33% Major Capsaicinoids . you get as many bursts from a small .69 oz keychain modle as you would from a 2 of any other.


Sabre 3 in 1 is a 2,000,000 SHU OC mixed with 1% CS tear gas.
with .13% capsaicinoids. good nasty stuff .


my wife carries the 3 in 1 and everyday she works in south philly and it hasnt failed her yet ,

i carry a different modle of sabre red and a 3 oz of Fox Labs every day,

[nalioth]

Stay away from "Mace" or "CN" based stuff (even mixtures).

It is a chemical irritant designed to work on healthy young people. If someone is under the influence or have a head cold, it might not work on them.

It also degrades over time into a harmless mist . . .

Pure pepper spray stays good almost forever ( just give it a shake if it sits in your desk drawer ) until you use it once (I'm looking at this from a civilian usage POV - you LE folks can afford to have a bottle of OC fail, but a civilian most likely cannot).

After that, I'd buy a new cannister, just to be on the safe side.

[Guns and more]

Mace or Spray recommendations for my mother?

It's not nice to mace your mother.

[Blues Brother]

see why I like this place? MORE interesting info. Please keep the suggestions coming in!

[8830]

Freeze works good but nothing has put the hurt on me or anyone I used it on like FOX. That stuff is 5.3million SHU and when I got sprayed with it to get qualified to carry it I hurt for 3 days. I've been sprayed several times with DefTec and it was nothing like FOX and Freeze runs a close second.

[NorestRDS]

freeze + P is pretty much Sabre 3 in 1 except sabre 3 in 1 is easier to get and comes in more configurations .

[NorestRDS]

you can feel free to private message me with any questions cause this thread will die quick because there is no knife forum and thats all they talk about here.

[xx7grant7x]

i guess i drank the kimber kool-aid i think it's a good user friendly product that offers some desirable features like minimal blow-back in a windy situation and a added amount of impact/range given the delivery system, bought one for my wife and she clips it to her belt when walking through the parking lot at night from work

[brent376]

Sabre Red DPS Cone Fog Spray 2 ounce size

Fox Labs 5.3 2 ounce cone spray

You can get both at www.galls.com

www.defensedevices.com

For a very long time I carried key ring sprays. After reading a training manual for a combination OC spray/kubotan class I changed my mind.


I dont like key ring canisters because i have never seen one that had a wide enough impact patern and they dont put out as much spray per shot as the 2 ounce model. As one OC instructor pointed out the spray pattern is so pathetic that you could block it with the palm of your hand. YOu cant say the same for a cone or high volume fogger. Large pattern and it does not matter if you have eye glasses on or not. Your going to get it in your lungs and all over your face and it cant be blocked by the hand or arm of a subject.

For example the 1/2 ounce saber canister empties 15 grams of OC in about 25 seconds.

The Sabre MK2 and MK3 canister empty about 60 grams of OC in about 7 seconds.

Counter Assault makes a fogger spray that empites 90 grams of OC in 5 seconds.

So with each 1/2 second shot you are going to hose the person down when using a 2 ounce can.

My wife keeps the 2 ounce can in a specific outside pocket in her purse and she keeps it in her hand when walking alone. Better to have a 2 ounce can with you that works than a 1/2 ounce that gives a false sense of security.

If you want something on your keys get a kubotan.

[conwict]

I like the small lifeact unit and carry one myself. The poster above who mentioned "3 attackers" has a point, but pepper spray would be hard to deploy against more than one attacker anyway. Teach your mom some E&E also.

I got my mom a Spitfire keychain spray and a Kimber Lifeact 2-shot unit. The spitfire has a nice conical pattern and allows 8 half-second shots or 4 seconds continuous spray, it's accessible and she will have it right there in parking lots.

The lifeact packs a wallop and sits in a pocket on the side of her purse.

Total cost about $55.

[JDoe]

She might appreciate a Taser C2 with an LED flashlight and laser sight.

Easy to use, fashionable and comes in various designer colors. Once she shows this off to her girlfriends my bet is they'll want to get one too.

http://www.taser.com/SiteCollectionImages/Product/Consumer%20Product%20Banner/c2_05_logo.jpg (http://www.taser.com/products/consumers/Pages/C2.aspx)

[nalioth]

but pepper spray would be hard to deploy against more than one attacker anyway. Good training helps overcome this.

[conwict]

True, but three determined attackers with the "drop" on someone only armed with OC have the definite advantage!

[bikerdoc]

Son,
Im not being a wise guy here, but first I would sit with mom and tell her your fears, and use that word not the PC word concerns. Get her involved in the decision and show her the options and education you have gathered.Then you have a chance of her buying into her own defense.
Good luck- she just might want a gun!!!!!

[NorestRDS]

She might appreciate a Taser C2 with an LED flashlight <u>and laser sight</u>.<br>
<br>
Easy to use, fashionable and comes in various designer colors. Once she shows this off to her girlfriends my bet is they'll want to get one too. <br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.taser.com/products/consumers/Pages/C2.aspx" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.taser.com/SiteCollectionImages/Product/Consumer%20Product%20Banner/c2_05_logo.jpg" alt="" border="0">


those are useless to civillians . as soon as the cycle is over with you can get right up and run your heart out towards the person who just tased you . you dont get knocked out and you dont get dazed you are 90% fine . they only work for police because they cuff the person directly after the cycle is over. pepper spray you are taking that 45 ride regardess if you feel the pain or not . your eyes are useless.

[ray_ray]

That kimber Lifeact looks interesting. I check out their website. that looks like quite a defense spray!
Stay away from them you WILL miss the target under stress and you only have two shoots! go with Fox or sabre red and you will be good.

[conwict]

ray, it points pretty easily and patterns pretty wide even at 6 or 7 feet. Have you seen any pics of targets hit with it?

Most people on here can shoot a gun...I imagine they could probably manage to hit someone with a spray that spreads out to 2 feet at 7 feet distance.

[NorestRDS]

2 shots is still two shots. only carry a derringer dont carry something with more then two bullets.

[SJ1]

This is all very useful. Thanks for the thread. It answered several questions which I hadn't quite formulated yet.

[brent376]

Dont get the Kimber Product. It is very easy to miss with. Check out this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0FFjAofnq4

I have tested several and they dont work as advertised. They will cause serious damage if sprayed at distaces less than 2 feet.

Get the Fox Labs 5.3 Spray

[ronnieevans40]

We use Sabre Red at work and it carrys over 2 million SHU's. I have had to use it several times on inmates in situations where they are not responding to verbal instructions. These are for the most part are very fit men who are pumped up and ready to rock. So far (knock on wood) it has been very effective in getting the attention of the individual sprayed. It is also important to point out that we are trained to deploy this less than lethal force and in many situations I have had to deal with the effects also. You should get with your mom and find out how she feels. Then after she is ready get her the training to properly deploy the defense system of choice. No self defense is effective if you dont know how to use it.
No defense is better than being prepared, your mom should understand what the threat is and the effect of what she is going to use. Last but not least no defense system will work if it is not used. Not every person can or will use force. Your best bet is training from a qualified individual or group.

[conwict]

The person who sprayed the Kimber in the video wasn't holding it as outlined in the manual, if that makes any difference to you.

[Blues Brother]

all great info. please keep it coming! Thanks!

[brent376]

I still would not carry something with two shots one of which only fires 2 feet. The primary charge shoots about 13 feet. The supporting spray shoots 2 feet. It is also rather large and bulky. My owners manual for a Guardian Angel said that it is most effective at distances of 7 feet. If you are 3-6 feet the pattern does not spread out as wide. I also did not like the fact that you cant tell which charge is the primary one. I may be aiming the top nozzle at the eyes of the attacker and the bottom one goes off and hits the chest and chin. I can buy 4 Fox Lab sprays with about 22 shots for the price of 1 kimber product. I have never had a Fox spray leak or depressurize. The solventcarrier used in FOx works much faster than the alcohol carrier in kimbers product.

[conwict]

The vids I've seen all show both shots shooting 13 feet. What do you mean?

Also, what do you mean "you can't tell which is the primary?" It only has one trigger...they would shoot in the same order regardless, and I'm not even convinced one shot is less potent or powerful.

[brent376]

The primary charge or cylinder. There are two of them. If you hold the unit as instructed one nozzle is on the bottom and one is on the top. For example. If you are aiming the top nozzle at the attackers head and you pull the trigger it’s a guess as to which one is going to fire first. If the bottom one fires then you have painted your attackers chest and chin instead of his eyes. Then your second nozzle/cylinder is only going to shoot 2 feet. Now when your adrenaline is pumping your going to grab that unit and jerk the trigger twice. If you are 10 feet away and your first charge misses the target you are screwed. Or if you have more than one assailant you are out of OC. You have to find which product you like best. The kimber product is better than no OC at all. Because of the limited OC capacity, price, large shape, and too many what ifs I am sticking with Fox Labs pepper spray. Also in an adrenaline rushed situation are you going to remember how to perfectly hold this device? It also says in my old manual to not jerk the unit as it can throw your aim off (like a firearm). If kimber offred one nozzle with multiple shots that is easy to aim then I may carry it.

[mgregg85]

My little sister carries the guardian angel(she can't CCW yet, she is only 13). I had her try the practice unit and she was able to hit a pie plate with it at about 8 feet with both shots.

I believe it works just fine if you aim it the way you are supposed to(as laid out in the instruction manual).

IF it happens to cause injury to someone within two feet of the unit, so be it. If someone is trying to rape or rob my little sister and they get permanently blinded, I won't be shedding a tear for them. Its a lot harder to try and rape someone else when your blind.:evil:

It gets rather cold and windy up here in michigan too and I worry about the pressurized sprays losing pressure or blowing back into my little sister's face.

[brent376]

I agree with you. I could care less if it causes injury to the attacker. Thats what he gets. My wife keeps this on her keys and I told her to go for the eyes or throat if someone trys to hurt her. The one she has is made of metal instead of plastic.

http://www.defensedevices.com/wilcatkey.html

If the Guardian Angel (Kimber changed the name it is now called Pepper Protector) works for you then great. It would be very usefull in a cold enviornment or to store in a hot car. Every product has its advantages and disadvantages.

[NorestRDS]

brent get rid of that cat . i bought my wife the same one from the same website . bent it a little bit.. snaps riiiiight off. there is one called "black cat" or something like that . Thick ABS plastic and i even sharpened it more for her.

[elsullo]

And they have saved my life in real urban combat. HOWEVER, keep in mind that 5-7 percent of the human population, and probably a similar percentage of dogs, are IMMUNE to pepper spray! FACT. I personally had a big dog who loved the taste of lethal chilli pepper curry, no matter how deadly to me---and his subsequent contented farts were even MORE deadly!

Also, all spray units lose effectiveness with age. Buy only the best quality brands that have a "use-by" date on the container. No date? Don't buy.

I do not leave my house without a defense spray in my pocket, but it is a fresh combination unit containing both pepper spray and CS/CN teargas. If the pepper don't get them then the teargas will! For those who carry purses I would recommend a two-ounce model for ease of gripping and handling with certainly.

Bear in mind that "fog" sprays will certainly affect the user somewhat as well as the targeted evildoer. I recommend "stream" sprays, as there will be less blowback to the user. Better yet, Mace brand makes a "PepperFoam" model that shoots a heavy foam spray that sticks and smears, reducing risk to the user, even if it is only pepper.

Speaking of "bear", there are large models of pepper spray called "bear repellant" which have a high-pressure spray that reaches a long distance! If you carry a big purse, why not?.........................elsullo :fire:

[brent376]

"brent get rid of that cat . i bought my wife the same one from the same website . bent it a little bit.. snaps riiiiight off. there is one called "black cat" or something like that . Thick ABS plastic and i even sharpened it more for her".

The one my wife has is made of 20 gauge steel. I bought it at a gun show in Tulsa. They guy at the booth has a steel company in Oklahoma make them. They come in several colors and have a pig or boston terrior design. Here is the guys website.

www.jacktheknifegarcia.com

He said he can ship them if you ever need to order one. This one is called Back Off Buddy.

[conwict]

mgregg85 wrote:

I had her try the practice unit and she was able to hit a pie plate with it at about 8 feet with both shots.

Were both charges equal or was one "secondary?"

Nothing against you, brent, it's just that all vids and descriptions I've seen leave this detail out...

Edit: After watching some vids and reading, all sources seem to indicate both "charges" are equal. Could you cite a source saying otherwise? It makes very little sense to me that they wouldn't be. And the only place I've ever heard such is on this thread.

[brent376]

Sure. In the Kimber Guardian Angel owners manual it clearly says that the primary charge shoots up to 13 feet and spreads out 12 inches in diameter. The supporting spray has a range of up to 2 feet and spreads out 8 inches in diameter. It even has an illustration showing the primary charge and supporting charge distance. While both cylinders have the same amount of active ingredient the first will shoot 13 feet and the second will shot 2 feet per Kimber Guardian Angel Owners Manual.

[conwict]

brent,

I think you misinterpreted it. I just called Kimber customer service and Winslow told me (you can call him at 914-964-0771) that both charges are the same, manufactured on the same line, and will have the exact same level of propellant and OC in them.

I don't have my manual any more but I don't ever recall reading anything about "two feet" as the overall distance of anything.

[brent376]

I may have read it wrong.

http://www.jetprotector.com/_down/Manual_Guardian_Angel_USA_1.pdf

http://www.jetprotector.com/_down/Manual_Guardian_Angel_USA_2.pdf


Here is an owners manual for the Guardian Angel.

It says " The main jet has a diameter of approx 12 inches at a distance of 13 feet while the supporting spray has a diameter of 8 inches at the minimum safe discharge distance of 12 feet". The Optimal distance is 8 feet.

Maybe I am reading it wrong. Does this mean that at 2 feet it has spead to 8 inches? In the technical section it says the effective distance is 2-13 feet.

[conwict]

I am too lazy (been doing HW) to find the place I read this, but I suspect that the "supporting spray" means the discharge that comes out after the propellant has been activated and most of the spray has been spent. Apparently there is a main "shot" and then, as the remaining gas slowly discharges, a respectively slower discharge of OC from the same piston.

I might find it later, but I'm pretty sure I got the general details right.

[brent376]

Conwict that makes sense to me.

The Kimber Product is better than NO OC at all. It is great that so many gun owners now carry OC spray. I get a little discouraged when I hear someone say "I dont need OC because I have a gun!" Having a gun is only part of a complete plan for protecting yourself against an attack. Being aware of your surrondings, knowing how to disable some with your hands (Eye Gouge Trachea Crush), having your less lethal items (Kubotan & pepper spray), avoiding dangerous situations and knowing how to use a gun are all important.

[conwict]

I agree totally. I think everyone's needs are different, but the ability to end the confrontation at a distance non-lethally is highly valuable.

I actually find it easier to carry than I imagine I would find a round can. Clipped in a cargo pocket it's concealed and quite fast to deploy. I know you can get smaller devices. In fact, per this thread, I may soon outfit myself with a Spitfire unit...so handy.

[brent376]

Spitfire is a good brand. I just switched my Kubotan out with one of theese. I have a similar design except mine is made of steel.

http://www.protectyourselfusa.com/index.cfm

[mgregg85]

The main vs supporting spray thing relates to the nozzles on the guardian angel unit. There are two different sizes and thus there is a "main spray" and a "supporting spray" for each of the two shots provided.

[conwict]

you mean there are different sized holes within each plastic tube that is attached to the propellant/oc...

but the unit is essentially symmetrical (except for the belt clip)?

[Loosedhorse]

Please search to find my previous post regarding my personal experience with the Kimber training unit. In summary, it's much less impressive (on a paper target) than a traditional OC fogger or cone spray. (There are MANY previous posts regarding OC sprays for you to peruse by search.)

I would definitely agree that--given an appropriate mindset and ability to train--an older woman might do well to choose a firearm instead of a spray for defense; but we all know not everyone will so choose, and firearms aren't the answer for all persons.

Good luck!