Buy a gun, get a letter from Big Brother...


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CountGlockula
August 15, 2008, 11:00 AM
This is what you receive when you buy a gun in the city of LA. Not all parts of LA get this letter. It only applies to specific districts.

Violation or intimidation?

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii303/mrfix7/DOJLetter.jpg

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TexasRifleman
August 15, 2008, 11:02 AM
It only applies to specific districts.

Sounds like racial profiling to me. I'd call the ACLU :)

DaleA
August 15, 2008, 11:18 AM
Gosh! Since they STATED in the letter that they are your 'partners' shouldn't that make them liable too if you do anything bad?

I also think as 'partners' they should pony up some ammunition and range fees from time to time. You'd let them shoot it once in a while if they showed up wouldn't you?:D

BLC
August 15, 2008, 11:24 AM
I live in Camarillo and have never see one of those. Of course its not L.A.

myrockfight
August 15, 2008, 12:03 PM
I don't know if you would call it intimidation, but it sure does give me that icky feeling inside. That is just creepy.

Do you have to register your guns with the city out there? How do they get the information in the first place? Through the gun shop?

CountGlockula
August 15, 2008, 12:22 PM
Do you have to register your guns with the city out there? How do they get the information in the first place? Through the gun shop?

Yes, through the gun shop.

For gun purchases in this state, you have to fill out a Dealer Record of Sale form and there's also a 10-day background check.

iowajones
August 15, 2008, 12:59 PM
Where's the spanish version? On the back side of the one you scanned?

Cougfan2
August 15, 2008, 01:09 PM
Despite my aversion to LA gun laws in general, this letter actually seems to be geared at helping people understand how to make sure they don't unwittingly violate their laws, even if we don't agree with them. I agree that the whole process makes one feel a little icky.:barf:

divemedic
August 15, 2008, 01:11 PM
Rewrite it to read:

As you know, subversive literature is a serious problem in Los Angeles. We understand that you have recently purchased a book. It is important that we all do our part to store and keep objectionable literature out of the hands of children and degenerate criminals. We are working in collaboration with the Federal government program, Project Safe Neighborhood.

As partners in keeping the streets safe in your neighborhood, we want to remind you of your obligations as a reading materials owner.

If you decide to sell or give your book to someone, you must complete a "Dealer Record of Sale" (DROS) form. These forms can be obtained from any book store or library. Remember, it is a crime to transfer a book to anyone without first filling out this form.

You know what else? The letter says that you must fill out the form, and transferring a gun without filling one out is a crime. The letter doesn't say that you have to send it in, just fill it out. Is that the case? I am not familiar with CA law.

SomeKid
August 15, 2008, 01:12 PM
Looks like the letter basically says to make sure and register your freedom at the door, and keep it registered or else.

LaEscopeta
August 15, 2008, 01:20 PM
No one can intimate you without your cooperation (apologies to Mrs. Roosevelt for changing her quote.)

The letter informs you of a city law that is not common in the US, and tells you of the possible consequences of not following the law. Why are you intimated by that?

Many people state most firearms used in crime are stolen, using this as a reason gun control and registration is ineffective against crime. If true, and if you accept that one of the responsibilities of government is to fight crime, they should be attempting to improve their ability to track stolen guns.

Back in the 70’s Massachusetts saw a dramatic upswing is car theft, till it became the car theft capital of the country. The State responded by requiring more information to title and registrar a car, and computerizing those records. A lot of people complained about the extra paper work burden imposed on them. But the police found many cars reported as stolen were still being driven by the people who reported them stolen, after they collected the insurance money. And many other people we buying stolen cars not knowing they were stolen. The car theft rings were able to file for a new title claiming they lost the old one. The previous Dept. of Motor Vehicles poor record system was unable to detect these frauds. After a few years of the extra paper work (and good police work) car theft in Mass. fell to below the national average.

In many cities when the cops trace a firearm recovered at a crime scene back to the last person who legally brought it, that person claims it was stolen, they didn’t report it, and they don’t remember when it was stolen. A few years ago the newspaper here reported an 80 year old woman had brought about a dozen hand guns over 2 years, all of which she claimed were stolen from her, she didn’t report any of the thefts, and three of the guns were used in crimes. It is possible LA will be able to achieve a drop is gun crime with the paperwork burden they are imposing on all gun sales. Or not. But if you believe all government is unnecessary, evil, and not capable of doing anything right, you will not be happy with anything the LA city government does or does not do.

Cosmoline
August 15, 2008, 01:41 PM
The letter informs you of a city law that is not common in the US, and tells you of the possible consequences of not following the law. Why are you intimated by that?


No, the letter personally threatens a citizen for purchasing a firearm. There is a threat of felony prosecution actually in the letter. That goes well beyond a friendly reminder. The subtext is clear--big bro. is watching you.

It is possible LA will be able to achieve a drop is gun crime with the paperwork burden that are imposing on all gun sales.

Half the population is illegal and operating totally outside the law, so I find it hard to believe they'll be able to make a dent in crime by threatening the few legitimate gun owners who haven't fled the stinkhole already.

harmonic
August 15, 2008, 01:46 PM
For Pete's sake, it's Los Angeles! One of the five worst cities in the worst state (re gun rights) in the nation.

They sent a letter re a gun purchase?! What's the big deal? I'm amazed they didn't send storm troopers to sell your wife and children into slavery!

I'm just glad I got out of that forsaken state.

BTW, I always despised LA.

ilbob
August 15, 2008, 01:48 PM
My first FOID card came with a letter explaining how to legally buy and sell firearms. I would not be all that worried about it.

CRITGIT
August 15, 2008, 01:51 PM
Though not popular with us here, folks in CA and especially LA fear gun violence to a point they support this approach and policies.
It's not unlike other campaigns like the "terrorists obsession" which caused the Pat Act & Military Comm Act stripping of our rights!

Fear works so well on the uneducated!

CRITGIT

dogrunner
August 15, 2008, 01:56 PM
Well, La Escopeta, its apparent by what you don't say, that you aren't a subscriber to the philosophy of small and tightly controlled government. Accordingly, to your line of reasoning, more regulation makes every thin' "mo better".

With reasoning of the sort you express, then the Japanese approach of frequent home checks and tightly controlled "people management" is not only acceptable, but preferable!

I seem to recall a rather notable essay from years back that started with: "I do not choose to be a 'kept' American"......what a crying shame that so many have abandoned that line of thought!

Just remember, the more a Government can control, the more it can and WILL take, certainly the freedoms you folks in California have lost stand in grim testimony to that!

M14/11B
August 15, 2008, 01:59 PM
More big brother. Why would I need these politicos to tell me this stuff? I should know it already or suffer the consequences of not. My son got two speeding tickets by the CHP within a short time of each other and the DMV sent him a letter saying he was a bad driver and might kill people and a lecture about driving practices.
This tells me they are meddling in peoples lives, have to much time on their hands and are wasting taxpayers money on this crap. Lay off a few of these bureaucrats or make 'em do real productive work!
M14

harmonic
August 15, 2008, 02:07 PM
My heart goes out to my brethren trapped behind the enema lines of kalifornistan.

Autolycus
August 15, 2008, 02:12 PM
Cosmoline said:
Half the population is illegal and operating totally outside the law, so I find it hard to believe they'll be able to make a dent in crime by threatening the few legitimate gun owners who haven't fled the stinkhole already.

Got any proof of this claim that 50% of the population of LA is illegal?

Steve H
August 15, 2008, 02:14 PM
Where's the spanish version? On the back side of the one you scanned?



I was thinking the same thing.............

LaEscopeta
August 15, 2008, 02:17 PM
…the letter personally threatens a citizen for purchasing a firearm. There is a threat of felony prosecution actually in the letter.Are we reading the same letter? The one I see by following the link above says:
“We understand that you have recently purchased a gun….If you ever decide to sell or give your gun to someone, you must complete a ….DROS form….If the police recover a gun that was involved in a crime, the L.A. City Attorney will prosecute the gun’s previous owner if that owner did not complete the…form.”

The threat of prosecution (letter does not say felony or misdemeanor) is not for purchasing a firearm. They know you brought the firearm legally because that how they got your name and address to send the letter to. The prosecution threat is if two things happen in the future; you sell/give away the firearm without filing the form, and the firarm is later involved in a crime.

Half the population is illegal…Source please?

...to your line of reasoning, more regulation makes every thin' "mo better".

No, that is not my line of reasoning. I have no blanket ideology on regulation. Each regulation needs to be judged on its own merit; does it do any good and if so is that good worth the cost/hassle of the regulation? The fact that we have too much regulation, and too much ineffective regulation, now-a-days does not mean everything would be perfect with no regulation. The book The Jungle by Sinclair Lewis, and others from the early 1900s detail what no regulation was like.

Thernlund
August 15, 2008, 02:19 PM
Got any proof of this claim that 50% of the population of LA is illegal?Source please?Cosmoline didn't give a "figure" of 50%. He said "half". It is a flip comment meant to express annoyance over the illegal immigrant problem in California.

Read no further into it. ;)


-T.

230RN
August 15, 2008, 02:19 PM
Might be checking addresses, too?

Sounds terse but businesslike: a reminder written by 2/3 attorneys.

If you get tagged: "See, here, we even sent you a letter about it."

But I appreciate the parallel with books noted above and I object to the very "need" to write any letters at all about how restricted your "privilege" is.

Darned Guccibooted thugs.

win71
August 15, 2008, 02:21 PM
The letter informs you of a city law that is not common in the US, and tells you of the possible consequences of not following the law. Why are you intimated by that?

No, the letter personally threatens a citizen for purchasing a firearm. There is a threat of felony prosecution actually in the letter. That goes well beyond a friendly reminder. The subtext is clear--big bro. is watching you.

Actually, person to person sales or gifts of handguns in the State of California has required a DROS since sometime around 1991.
This letter appears to be a way for the City of LA to attempt to educate it's local citizens in perhaps a gang ridden crime area with respect to the existing State law. Obviously it is an attempt to keep legitimate handguns out of the hands of illegitimate users.
If you actually believe that it is intended as a form of intimidation by big brother to threaten your freedom then I suppose any reminder in whatever form that advises of penalties for violating any law could also be considered intimidation. I can only assume the reference to big brother includes any governmental body from the lowest of city governments to the highest of federal governments. If that's the case you must be looking over your shoulder all your waking hours.
California has so many sales of gun laws peculiar to itself I wish they would include a short summary with every purchase . At least it may help some honest person unintentionally do something illegal and get in a jam over it.

LaEscopeta
August 15, 2008, 02:25 PM
Just remember, the more a Government can control, the more it can and WILL take...

Maybe, but US history has plenty of examples of the People taking back control from the Government:
- After the Civil War.
- Supreme Court limiting the control the executive branch can wield over the economy during the FDR administration.
- After WWII.
- Freedom of Information Act.
- Limits on domestic spying imposed on the FBI in the 1970’s.
- Heller vs. DC.

harmonic
August 15, 2008, 02:42 PM
California has so many sales of gun laws peculiar to itself I wish they would include a short summary with every purchase .

You'd have to rent a Uhaul with every gun purchase just to take the literature home.

Cosmoline
August 15, 2008, 02:46 PM
Boyo, the City Attorney and Attorney General don't sign off on "friendly reminders." It is a threat letting you know in no uncertain terms that you WILL be prosecuted if you don't abide by their rules. It also lets the owner know that they know who he is and where he lives. These people don't pay friendly visits and they don't write friendly reminders.

I suppose any reminder in whatever form that advises of penalties for violating any law could also be considered intimidation

If it's personally sent to me, signed and countersigned by the boys who will be putting my broad backside in PRISON for failure to fill out the proper forms in triplicate, then yes it is pretty intimidating. It is intended to be intimidating.

Obviously it is an attempt to keep legitimate handguns out of the hands of illegitimate users.

That's a laugh. These laws are designed to chill lawful transfer and ownership. They don't want you to have a firearm in the first place. That is the goal.

If we're going to compare it to auto registration laws, imagine getting a letter signed by the head of the DMV, the DEQ and your local DA telling you that unless you get your exhaust checked every year you will be prosecuted and sent to prison. Overkill? You betcha. And pretty scary if the ink is real. Of course, such a law would be designed to discourage car ownership not to keep the air clean.

Cactus Jack Arizona
August 15, 2008, 03:05 PM
I'm glad I live in a State with a Sheriff that does not require one to be a victim of an aggravated assault before one is allowed to conceal carry.

Yes, this definitely sounds like a bad dose of big brotherly interference. I've been to Kalifornikstan and I can't figure out why any red blooded American would want to subject themselves to such continued big brotherly travesties. :confused:

CRITGIT
August 15, 2008, 03:13 PM
Illegals are caused by greedy illegal employers and gov't with a vested interest in cheap labor! But it's more fun to bash the underdog laborer trying to feed his family. Isn't that odd? There are illegals in every state because exploitation is condoned and up until recently encouraged here.

CA is the eigth largest econ in the world and other states are dependendent on it's prosperity. Try it with out the "stink hole"...you'll have more than disarmlament to worry about.

Be careful who you alienate today's minorities are soon to be tomorrow's majority!
Or are we as gun owners in a position to pick and choose our allies.


Actually, person to person sales or gifts of handguns in the State of California has required a DROS since sometime around 1991.
This letter appears to be a way for the City of LA to attempt to educate it's local citizens in perhaps a gang ridden crime area with respect to the existing State law. Obviously it is an attempt to keep legitimate handguns out of the hands of illegitimate users.
If you actually believe that it is intended as a form of intimidation by big brother to threaten your freedom then I suppose any reminder in whatever form that advises of penalties for violating any law could also be considered intimidation. I can only assume the reference to big brother includes any governmental body from the lowest of city governments to the highest of federal governments. If that's the case you must be looking over your shoulder all your waking hours.
California has so many sales of gun laws peculiar to itself I wish they would include a short summary with every purchase . At least it may help some honest person unintentionally do something illegal and get in a jam over it.
Today 11:19 AM


Well put!


CRITGIT

robsc
August 15, 2008, 03:16 PM
The sooner, the better, Kommiefornya falls into the ocean taking all its` liberals and illegals with it.

Zip7
August 15, 2008, 03:18 PM
To protest this ridiculous policy, you should buy so many guns that you cause them to go bankrupt on the postage from sending you letters.

Werewolf
August 15, 2008, 03:18 PM
I got a gun related letter from the state once.

Reminded me my CCW was about to expire and encouraging me to renew it.

It's nice to live in a FREE state.

Pat-inCO
August 15, 2008, 03:24 PM
Yawn.

azredhawk44
August 15, 2008, 03:36 PM
To protest this ridiculous policy, you should buy so many guns that you cause them to go bankrupt on the postage from sending you letters.

Not gonna happen. The state makes between $25 and $100 just on sales tax for each gun purchase, depending on the retail price.

One idea though... get a friend with an identical gun and start trading guns. Keep filling out DROS forms for each other's pistols, and trade your guns back and forth every week. See how long it takes to piss 'em off and invent something to harrass you with.

It would also hopelessly tangle the ownership history of the guns. Especially if you expanded your circle of gun traders somehow to folks you knew and trusted, getting several hundred people who own the same gun model to commit to the act.

Might be fun to do purely to harrass the state with something really cheap, like a High Point. If it were a problem in AZ and I could find like minded people to participate, I'd do it.:neener:

win71
August 15, 2008, 04:11 PM
One idea though... get a friend with an identical gun and start trading guns. Keep filling out DROS forms for each other's pistols, and trade your guns back and forth every week. See how long it takes to piss 'em off and invent something to harrass you with.

It would also hopelessly tangle the ownership history of the guns. Especially if you expanded your circle of gun traders somehow to folks you knew and trusted, getting several hundred people who own the same gun model to commit to the act.

Might be fun to do purely to harrass the state
Well now. That should work. Especially since there is a limit of one handgun transaction per 30 day period. You and all your friends can spend some time sending harassing email from your cell...........

ilbob
August 15, 2008, 04:11 PM
I have never seen a credible estimate of illegals in LA that went as high as 50%. Some credible crime statistics indicate that 50% of some crimes are committed by illegals though.

Considering that 100% of all ilegals are criminals, I am not at all surprised.

Neocode
August 15, 2008, 04:14 PM
My first FOID card came with a letter explaining how to legally buy and sell firearms. I would not be all that worried about it.

ilbob, if you lived in a state like Florida, you would see why this is a ridiculous letter. We don't have FOID's, or registrations, or many restrictions on types of firearms.

A letter like that would never happen here, under the current laws. And I, among many, intend on keeping it that way, with our votes.

SCKimberFan
August 15, 2008, 04:18 PM
Why does everyone in ********** get their panties in a wad whenever we talk about the Draconian gun laws and pleasant reminders from the DA and others?

Those of us who live in much freer states (though still not as free as Vermont) cannot understand why anyone would choose to live under such Socialist-type laws and regulations. The problem with ********** is that many of the laws put in place there eventually work their way east. ********** is what the rest of the country will be like if the voters continue to elect leftist Congresscritters and Senators and Presidents.

That is NOT the country the founders had in mind when the threw the Tea Party in Boston Harbor. Not anything like it.

NoirFan
August 15, 2008, 05:00 PM
LaEscopeta, you are a voice of reason in a thread full of rhetoric. Thanks for making your points in a clear and logical manner.

Old Fuff
August 15, 2008, 05:04 PM
If the letter was sent to everyone that legally purchased a handgun I might buy the argument that the city was simply informing buyers of certain laws and responsibilities. However since it is apparently limited to certain areas or neighborhoods it seems obvious that only certain buyers are being targeted. With this in mind the intent becomes more obvious - and objectionable.

ilbob
August 15, 2008, 05:12 PM
If the letter was sent to everyone that legally purchased a handgun I might buy the argument that the city was simply informing buyers of certain laws and responsibilities. However since it is apparently limited to certain areas or neighborhoods it seems obvious that only certain buyers are being targeted. With this in mind the intent becomes more obvious - and objectionable.I don't see how it is objectionable to remind a citizen of a point of law that may not be real obvious to them. It does seem a little odd that they are only sending it to some gun buyers. But, I did not see it as threatening in anyway, or even offensive. Maybe I am not as easily offended.

If they want to waste money on this kind of thing - let them.

TexasRifleman
August 15, 2008, 05:37 PM
With this in mind the intent becomes more obvious - and objectionable.

It's racist, as is EVERY gun control measure EVER put in place.

Old Fuff
August 15, 2008, 05:55 PM
It does seem a little odd that they are only sending it to some gun buyers.


I don't think it's odd, but rather obvious. Only certain buyers with a particular racial background such as African-American or Hispanic need to be... well... "informed." Others are exempt.

It is interesting that Democrat Progressives, who claim to champion racial minorities don’t include firearm ownership or use when it comes to their vision of championship. :mad:

lookn4varmints
August 15, 2008, 06:14 PM
If they want to waste money on this kind of thing - let them.

There's just one small detail overlooked with this comment; it's not THEIR money! :banghead:

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