Texas schoolteachers may carry guns


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PhilA
August 15, 2008, 12:36 PM
A small voice of reason begins in Texas.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5945430.html

"When the federal government started making schools gun-free zones, that's when all of these shootings started. Why would you put it out there that a group of people can't defend themselves? That's like saying 'sic 'em' to a dog," Thweatt said in Friday's online edition of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram.

Nice. About time somebody said something that resembles the kind of thinking this country was founded on.

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Deer Hunter
August 15, 2008, 12:37 PM
God Bless Texas.

Macpherson
August 15, 2008, 12:47 PM
God Bless Texas! It's getting harder and harder to come up with reasons not to move there :D

LeonCarr
August 15, 2008, 12:54 PM
Finally, somebody being proactive instead of overreactive.

I love being a Texan.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

Mainsail
August 15, 2008, 12:58 PM
Sheesh, it just happened in another thread. The story linked changed. It’s no big drama to paste the text in:
North Texas school district will let teachers carry guns
Associated Press
HARROLD, Texas — A tiny Texas school district may be the first in the nation to allow teachers and staff to pack guns for protection when classes begin later this month, a newspaper reported.

Trustees at the Harrold Independent School District approved a district policy change last October so employees can carry concealed firearms to deter and protect against school shootings, provided the gun-toting teachers follow certain requirements.

In order for teachers and staff to carry a pistol, they must have a Texas license to carry a concealed handgun; must be authorized to carry by the district; must receive training in crisis management and hostile situations and have to use ammunition that is designed to minimize the risk of ricochet in school halls.

Superintendent David Thweatt said the small community is a 30-minute drive from the sheriff's office, leaving students and teachers without protection. He said the district's lone campus sits 500 feet from heavily trafficked U.S. 287, which could make it a target.

"When the federal government started making schools gun-free zones, that's when all of these shootings started. Why would you put it out there that a group of people can't defend themselves? That's like saying 'sic 'em' to a dog," Thweatt said in Friday's online edition of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram.

Thweatt said officials researched the policy and considered other options for about a year before approving the policy change. He said the district also has various other security measures in place to prevent a school shooting.
"The naysayers think (a shooting) won't happen here. If something were to happen here, I'd much rather be calling a parent to tell them that their child is OK because we were able to protect them," Thweatt said.

Texas law outlaws firearms on school campuses "unless pursuant to the written regulations or written authorization of the institution."
It was unclear how many of the 50 or so teachers and staff members will be armed this fall because Thweatt did not disclose that information, to keep it from students or potential attackers. Wilbarger County Sheriff Larry Lee was out of the office Thursday and did not immediately return a phone call seeking comment, the newspaper said.

Barbara Williams, a spokeswoman for the Texas Association of School Boards, said her organization did not know of another district with such a policy. Ken Trump, a Cleveland-based school security expert who advises districts nationwide, including in Texas, said Harrold is the first district with such a policy.

The 110-student district is 150 miles northwest of Fort Worth on the eastern end of Wilbarger County, near the Oklahoma border.

Seminole
August 15, 2008, 03:02 PM
gun-toting teachers :rolleyes:

Good for the Harrold Independent School District. May their tribe increase.

Autolycus
August 15, 2008, 03:07 PM
I believe it is legal in Oregon for people to carry in a school building. However staff may lose their jobs if they do.

Hokkmike
August 15, 2008, 03:14 PM
Makes me want to move!

nplant
August 15, 2008, 03:44 PM
Already under discussion here:
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=385461

lookn4varmints
August 15, 2008, 04:56 PM
I think we should ALL send HUGE KUDOS to Harrold Independent School District Superintendent David Thweatt. You can bet your life the gun-grabbers are hammering him by email and by phone. We need to counter the grabbers lest Sup. Thweatt be discouraged.

His email: david.thweatt@harroldisd.net

Thweatt has guts, and as the Gunny said, “….guts is enough.”

bdickens
August 16, 2008, 11:04 AM
Title of this thread is misleading.

Starship1st
August 16, 2008, 11:13 AM
All I can say, "D.C., Chicago, and San Fran-sicko: What do you think about Texas?" :cool:

springmom
August 16, 2008, 11:26 AM
I love it. God bless Texas.

Springmom

threefeathers
August 16, 2008, 12:01 PM
This will spread, the West and South. Even CA in Kern County will eventually do it.

FCFC
August 16, 2008, 12:08 PM
This will spread, the West and South. Even CA in Kern County will eventually do it.
Way to optimistic, IMO.

Too many obstacles, big ones too, that will limit the diffusion of the Harrold experiment.

I wouldn't be surprised if even the Harrold effort would be postponed or rescheduled before August 25. Or suspended shortly after it was actually started...

Medusa
August 16, 2008, 12:14 PM
Thank you for the good decision. As it's a small world, it does affect us here too, positively. "A weapon is a sign of a free man".

It might be a small step, but it is in the right direction, that's what counts.

Intune
August 16, 2008, 01:05 PM
Already rolling- http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=385461

I believe this is taking place in one school district, not all of TX.

P90shooter
August 16, 2008, 01:13 PM
I wasn't born a Texan but I got here as soon as I could :)

I'd like to see this move up to College's as well but instead of just teachers, maybe CCL Students could do some good

TexasRifleman
August 16, 2008, 01:15 PM
I believe this is taking place in one school district, not all of TX.

Not yet but our Governor and several legislators are calling for it.

We expect to see some legislation on this as soon as they reconvene.

Eric F
August 16, 2008, 01:29 PM
what doesTexas -- leads the nation in capital execution, thanks to Geo. W.

You can shoot someone for stealing your tractor.
andBut large knives are unlawful -- mostly because large knives are the weapon of choice for Mexicans. Just like marijuana penalties in TX were really excessive because it's the drug of preference for Mexicans and "negroes."

You should see the "fence" they're building "on the border." In many areas it's set NORTH of the border by miles and puts US Landowners south of the fence and effectively OUT of the United States.

I spent a couple years stationed in TX in the Army. Damnedest state I've ever been in. have to do withTeachers can carry guns.
Color has no bearing on the common pot head:banghead:

Triphammer
August 16, 2008, 01:38 PM
Quoted from article "It was unclear how many of the 50 or so teachers and staff members will be armed this fall because Thweatt did not disclose that information, ".

Doesn't matter. As a school that is not a " Free Kill Zone" they are already safer than any other school in the country.

ilbob
August 16, 2008, 02:01 PM
Doesn't matter. As a school that is not a " Free Kill Zone" they are already safer than any other school in the country.even if no teacher ever carries.

skinewmexico
August 16, 2008, 02:41 PM
Texas -- leads the nation in capital execution, thanks to Geo. W.

Geez, it must be a weird world to live in where you blame Geo. W. for everything. He just controls your world, huh? And FYI, Texas led before Geo W., and the laws to execute more were passed by the LEGISLATURE. Go learn something about representative government.

The majority of us don't mind leading the nation.

Joe Demko
August 16, 2008, 03:00 PM
Then it should make you happy that Texas has one of the highest crime rates of the fifty states, if you want to crow about leading. Whatever else may be said about Texas laws, the numbers do not indicate that they reduce crime.
As a teacher, this initiative pleases me. I taught in Laredo for several years. It was a crazy, violent place. Legal carry at work would have been a real plus.

azhunter122
August 16, 2008, 03:04 PM
That's great news, what about the citezens though?

TexasRifleman
August 16, 2008, 05:45 PM
Then it should make you happy that Texas has one of the highest crime rates of the fifty states, if you want to crow about leading.

Not sure what statistics you are quoting but Texas barely made the top 20 for rape, murder, robbery, and assault in the 2006 UCR.

Certainly could be better but it's a hell of a stretch to say Texas has "one of the highest" crime rates of the 50 states.

As for the death penalty, there are few stats that deal with that directly but since we're just making stuff up anyway let's note that Texas' neighbor New Mexico has executed 1 person since 1976. New Mexico is #3 in Murder and Rape and #1 in Assault and Burglary.

Arizona hasn't executed anyone since 1999. Arizona is 8th in murders in the US.

So compared to our next door neighbors the death penalty might very well be a raging success; Texas is 17th in murders.

Eric F
August 16, 2008, 07:23 PM
I have many conflicting thoughts on this. Where as I like the idea of 2a and self defence, I think its a sad state when schools are/have been targeted for violence. I would not mind my child going to a teacher armed school but before doing so I would have to have a good working relationship with the teacher/teachers. I do not mind my child being around guns and such I would just like to know that the people with guns in charge of her care at school are not a dunce with a weapon. My wife was a teacher and teachers are like everyone else. There are the some that worked with her that would love the chance to play super cop with a gun in school and some that just have that dark cloud over them all the time, you know always fumbling things knocking stuff over constant run of bad luck. With a person like that an ad is just waiting to happen. On the other side there are a bunch that are more than capable of conducting themselves.

TexasRifleman
August 16, 2008, 07:29 PM
I do not mind my child being around guns and such I would just like to know that the people with guns in charge of her care at school are not a dunce with a weapon.

With CHL permits pretty common how do you know that just about anyone your child comes in contact with isn't armed?

Soccer coach, Boy Scout troop leader, Dentist, kids friends parents, anything......

I'm armed all the time around my kids friends. None of them know, their parents don't know, and the big evil gun doesn't jump out and hit them.

Why would it be any different with teachers?

Eric F
August 16, 2008, 07:33 PM
With CHL permits pretty common how do you know that just about anyone your child comes in contact with isn't armed?
I will go out on a limb and say........ASK. Maybe I am a bit over protective here as she is my only child and only 2 at that, but its more an issue of knowing who is watching my child verses the gun issue.(Some how I think my post will come out all wrong)

Big Daddy K
August 16, 2008, 07:33 PM
May be drinking Brady Koolaid?

I swear there is always one in every class, work place, or web page that feel they have to pizz off everyone else.:banghead: It's there duty. Well your duty stinks:D

God Bless Texas. I fired off an e-mail of thanks to the Super.

TexasRifleman
August 16, 2008, 07:35 PM
I will go out on a limb and say........ASK.

Do you ask every adult your child comes in contact with if they are armed?

If I was asked I'm not even sure I'd admit it. Whether or not I am carrying concealed is my business.

I see your point and I wonder the same thing about my own son, but are we really going to ask everyone if they are armed?

Eric F
August 16, 2008, 07:43 PM
Do you ask every adult your child comes in contact with if they are armed?
No but do I ask the babby sitter. Actually since my daughter was born the only people who have ever watched her are my wife our folks her best friend and my neighbor. My dad and my neighbor do carry and I know the accident potential is very very low.

There is a way to ask and then the way to ask. If you come right out and say hey bud you packin? I would expect a nope every time. If I got a yes from that question then it might be a indicator to go else where follow up questions would be in order. Then ther is the way to ask where you gradually work it into a conversation. Generally speaking(no pun) I speak way better than I type(please hold the jokes). I have a nack for feeling carriers out. IF a person is that unrevealing chances are they are safe and I am good with that. does any of this make sense?

Also for now If a person were that accident prone( I am really trying to avoid the word idiot) armed or not she would not be staying with them. I also realize at some point I will have to learn to let her go into society........just not now though. And thats likely my issue with the whole thing as I am not that concerned with any one elses children on this topic.

TexasRifleman
August 16, 2008, 07:46 PM
I have a nack for feeling carriers out. IF a person is that unrevealing chances are they are safe and I am good with that. does any of this make sense?

Sure, and like I say I'm in the same boat but carrying is a pretty personal thing I guess. I'm not sure I'd ever admit to anyone that I carried. Most of my very best friends don't know it.

You do bring up an interesting point though.

TexasRifleman
August 16, 2008, 07:59 PM
What's the relationship you ask?

It's TEXAS -- home of George W. Bush, worst president in the history of the world. A state where you get eaten alive by sitting on the ground.

Just so you realize it's not all "up side."

Well as long as you had something constructive to contribute to the thread.....

I was worried there for a second. :)

dalepres
August 16, 2008, 09:56 PM
You can shoot someone for stealing your tractor.
What's wrong with that?

Teachers can carry guns.
What's wrong with that?

But large knives are unlawful -- mostly because large knives are the weapon of choice for Mexicans. Just like marijuana penalties in TX were really excessive because it's the drug of preference for Mexicans and "negroes."

Actually, large knives are illegal for the same reason guns, and especially open-carried guns, are illegal in many places: they make people afraid - people who have never taken responsibility for themselves.

As for the pot penalties, I think the reason pot penalties are so high in Texas is that it is so easy to find there and those penalties are a great source of renvenue for the state and many municipalities. It has nothing to do with color or nationality.

jfrey
August 16, 2008, 11:24 PM
I was in a presentation this last week on school safety. The guy who did it was a self anointed expert, ex-LEO from Missouri. I posed the situation of teachers carrying to him and he was mostly against it because his concern was someone shooting at a perp but hitting a kid or two as well. That would always be a concern in any shooting situation, but his elitist side started to show through. He asserted that most civilians don't get the training and range time that he had gotten as a police officer and were generally, in his eyes, not as qualified. All the time he was talking I was thinking BS in my mind. He had to qualify, what, maybe 2 or 3 times a year at most. With very few exceptions, I shoot 100 to 150 rounds every weekend, often times more. Care to wager who is the better shot? I have a close LEO friend who has told me on numerous occassions that I shoot better than 80 to 90 percent of the people he knew on our local police force.
The bottom line is, our Constitution guarantees us our God given rights and it doesn't say anything about excluding schools. Teachers who show a reasonable level of proficience should be able to carry in the classroom, just like teachers in Israel and the Phillipines. They got it right, why can't we?

FCFC
August 16, 2008, 11:37 PM
...but his elitist side started to show through. He asserted that most civilians don't get the training and range time that he had gotten as a police officer and were generally, in his eyes, not as qualified. All the time he was talking I was thinking BS in my mind. He had to qualify, what, maybe 2 or 3 times a year at most. With very few exceptions, I shoot 100 to 150 rounds every weekend, often times more. Care to wager who is the better shot? I have a close LEO friend who has told me on numerous occassions that I shoot better than 80 to 90 percent of the people he knew on our local police force.
I'm not sure what your point is.

If it's that you are a good/great shooter, well, OK, you are. http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/41.gif

I don't see how that is relevant to the issue of whether civilians (and teachers), in general, are more qualified than cops, in general, at handling shooting situations of the type that could happen at a school.

A good question would be "How do civilians (and teachers) as a group perform at gun shooting events of the relevant type compared to cops as a group?"

What is the mean? Median? What is the range? Etc., etc.....

I rather doubt that the average civilian who has a carry permit or who carries is better at shooting events than the average cop.

I could be wrong. It would be interesting to do a study.

Elza
August 17, 2008, 12:36 AM
FCFC: I rather doubt that the average civilian who has a carry permit or who carries is better at shooting events than the average cop.I doubt that you are too far off here. There are some cops that only shoot during the mandated quals and CHL holders that only shoot when they acquire/renew their licenses.

There are gunnies in both camps that will get many hours of range time because they like to shoot. The rest will fall somewhere in the middle.

On a percentage basis I would suspect that there is little difference between the two groups.

Intune
August 17, 2008, 01:08 AM
It's TEXAS -- home of George W. Bush, worst president in the history of the world. A state where you get eaten alive by sitting on the ground.

Just so you realize it's not all "up side."He’s got a long way to go before he even enters the upper craposphere held by Jimmy (We Are The World) Carter. John (These Medals Sure Fly Well) Kerry could’ve topped Prez Carter but the American people wisely refused him a chance to toss the gold ones.

Get off the ground & do something and you won’t have to worry about those fire-ants, killer bees, skunks & ‘possums.

It is entirely ”upside” and I challenge you to divest of the political rhetoric & present some viable perspectives on the OP before this thread gets locked... Even though I just tossed out a few. :)

Eric F
August 17, 2008, 01:20 AM
Gw at best can only be charged with poor economic decisions. the war was a vote on thing to be honest the president that allowed prohibition in my mind was the worst. Not because alcohol was illegal but the number of deaths because of boot legging and running liquor was in the multiple tens of thousands. At best the gulf war has what 4-5k soldigers and 4k civilians(US deathscounting 9-11-01 attacks) for the same amount of time even.

I know politics arnt allowed but I cant help it sorry.

Erik
August 17, 2008, 02:39 AM
Gotta love Texas. Maybe some day I'll make it back for more than a visit; this is certainly another argument in favor of that.

dalepres
August 17, 2008, 02:40 AM
Not because alcohol was illegal but the number of deaths because of boot legging and running liquor was in the multiple tens of thousands.

Sort of like the current drug wars - both gang related and government related.

Photomask
August 17, 2008, 02:56 AM
Teachers with guns.... I had enough trouble with them when they only carried chalkboard erasers....:rolleyes:

Personally, I think we would all be better off if they went back to carrying, and using, paddles.

Every year we, as a society, have removed more discipline from the hands of the teachers and big surprise..... the kids have become less disciplined.

Prince Yamato
August 17, 2008, 03:53 AM
I would just like to know that the people with guns in charge of her care at school are not a dunce with a weapon

The Texas CCW course, while not super difficult does a decent job of weeding out bad shots and the loonies. So, between the thorough background check the school gives the teacher and the one Texas DPS would give the teacher and the actual CCW test, you could rest assured that your teacher was both sane and competent with a firearm.

bdickens
August 17, 2008, 10:30 AM
...George W. Bush, worst president in the history of the world....

Really? Worse than Carter?

bdickens
August 17, 2008, 10:41 AM
Then it should make you happy that Texas has one of the highest crime rates of the fifty states, if you want to crow about leading. Whatever else may be said about Texas laws, the numbers do not indicate that they reduce crime.

Care to produce any evidence of that, hotshot? Or are you just parroting BradyBunch lies?

ferretray
August 17, 2008, 10:44 AM
Don't trespass/steal in Texas and you won't get shot. Pretty easy to figure out.
Knife length: 5 1/2" blade. Probably all you need for casual carry. When the zombies come no one will care.
Keep your weed out of Texas and you won't spend a long prison sentence for it.
The law is the law, I don't care what flavor you are.
We really don't care what you think, believe, etc.,.
Awhile back some rube of a "Reporter" asked our governor what he thought about Texans totin' firearms. He responded that a Texan should be able to carry anywhere.
I feel blessed that my grandchildren are being raised here.
That fence deal is federal.

TIMC
August 17, 2008, 11:30 AM
I am very happy about teachers being able to carry guns and I hope the whole stat follow soon. There have been a few close calls on school shootings here in Texas but the plots were found out and stopped before they started. allowing the teachers to carry would be a little more insurance our children would be protected.

Someone else suggested the paddle should be brought back too. I agree with that as well. I still think a lot of the problems with children these days is they are taught from very young they are not responsible for their actions and they do not have to pay for their mistakes. In our quest to protect them we have protected them from everyone but themselves. Corporal punishment was used when I was growing up and I was on the receiving end more than a few times and I did not turn into a maladjusted crazy with anti-social issues. I learned respect for others and that one must be responsible for their own actions.

Larry Ashcraft
August 17, 2008, 11:31 AM
One more chance to keep this on topic, because I'm feeling generous this morning.

The next political post gets this thread shut down.

Joe Demko
August 17, 2008, 11:33 AM
bdickens,

Here (http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/US_States_Rate_Ranking.html) you go.
Texas ranked 12/13 in violent crime, 17/16 in muder and nonnegligent manslaughter, 22/18 in forcible rape, 9/10 in robbery, 14/16 in aggravated assault, 7/7 in property crime (so much for that being allowed to shoot 'em business), 11/8 in burglary (ditto), 6/5 in larceny theft, and 16 in motor vehicle theft.
Compare those numbers to the stridently and oppressively anti-gun state of Massachussets. Texas is in the lead, all right.
Your laws in Texas are what you want them to be, which is how this nation was set up. Your laws, however proud you may be of them, do not appear to do what many Texans claim. They do not reduce crime. Texas is on the high side of the graph for every category of crime. Texas' overall crime statistics mirror the statistics nationwide WRT to rises and falls.
Let me know if I can help you with anything else.

macadore
August 17, 2008, 12:02 PM
Texas -- leads the nation in capital execution, thanks to Geo. W.

Where is your evidence?

Yeah, Carter didn't get us into a stupid war or run up the deficit into the trillions.

True. He ran up the deficit while surrendering rather than going to war.


A lot of you yelp about how sorry teachers are then applaud the fact some of them can carry firearms in schools. That seems inconsistent.

I am not sure how I feel about this. Most teachers are serious dedicated professionals trying to do an impossible job mandated by legislators who have never taught. However, some teachers are real fruitcakes.

scrat
August 17, 2008, 04:00 PM
too cool hopefully others school districts will follow suit.

Intune
August 17, 2008, 04:26 PM
Hijacked, OT, political and probably some Mod pm's going out to folks. Sorry I got sucked into it and my apologies to the OP & Mods. I've been around long enough to know better...:banghead:

Superintendent David Thweatt is scheduled to talk on Gun Talk radio, this Sunday at 1:35pm Central time.

macadore
August 17, 2008, 05:54 PM
Where's my "evidence" --

You can Google "Texas" and "Capital Punishment."

Here . . . I'll do it for you --

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Texas

For a list of executions scheduled by the State of Texas, see the website of the Texas Department of Criminal Justice, Scheduled Executions, at http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/sch...executions.htm

For a full list of those executed since 1982 see the list of individuals executed in Texas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...cuted_in_Texas

Your evidence does not support your conclusion. Your evidence shows that there are executions in Texas. Where is the evidence that “Texas -- leads the nation in capital execution, thanks to Geo. W.”?

Joe Demko
August 17, 2008, 06:02 PM
bdickens,
Click the link in my post and it'll take you to the source of those statistics. Don't hesitate to ask for more help on anything else you don't understand

TexasRifleman
August 17, 2008, 06:04 PM
Texas is on the high side of the graph for every category of crime.

And on the low side compared to the other Mexico border states as I posted earlier.

You can make statistics say just about anything you want them to.

Joe Demko
August 17, 2008, 06:11 PM
That may well be WRT the other border states; but Texas is still part of the USA so the comparison to ALL states is valid. Texas' crime rates flucuate in concert with those of the other states. Which is the more logical conclusion:
1. Texas' peculiar laws do not have a great effect on Texas crime rates

2. Texas' peculiar laws effect the crime rates nationally.

TexasRifleman
August 17, 2008, 06:12 PM
1. Texas' peculiar laws do not have a great effect on Texas crime rates

Again, you cannot say that the death penalty here has no deterrent effect. Statistics simply cannot show that it wouldn't be substantially higher WITHOUT the heavy use of the death penalty. You can't prove or disprove something like that with statistics.

I can make the argument just as easily that the heavy use of the death penalty here is why our crime rate is so much lower than other border states.

I can't prove it, and you can't prove yours. Statistics can be spun to show just about anything you want them to.

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