negligent discharge


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GingerGuy
August 15, 2008, 03:45 PM
While I was at the August A. Busch Conservation Gun Range this morning, a guy 4 stations down had a neglegent discharge. First time it has happened while I was at a range. I've never seen a guy pack-up and get out of there so fast.

He was with his wife and was working on a stovepipe with one in the chamber. His handgun wasn't pointed down range and he had his finger on the trigger while trying to remove the stovepipe and BANG.:what:

Those .40 S&W rounds will go through wood just fine thank you...for anyone that has been to this range outside of St. Louis, you know they have rangers all around and it's very formal shooting, everything by the book.

After the guy left with his head down, another guy said, "man, he's lucky" and I said, "No, actually we're lucky". It had to be pretty close for the guy in the booth right next to him....wasn't anyones time this morning...thankfully.

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pingpingping
August 15, 2008, 03:52 PM
Yeeeeeeshh!!!!:what:

Chipperman
August 15, 2008, 03:55 PM
Yikes.
Hopefully he learned his lesson and will be safer for it.

DrPerry
August 15, 2008, 04:00 PM
1 keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction
2 keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction
3 keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction
4 keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction

That's how I see's it

Pat-inCO
August 15, 2008, 04:08 PM
I just hope the range has his name and address. Then makes sure he goes through a gun safety course before he is allowed to shoot there again. A $100 (or more) course at that. Hit them in the wallet and you get their attention.

As Forest Gump said, "Stupid is as stupid does".

nambu1
August 15, 2008, 04:13 PM
I was taught by my father and have taught my children, never point a gun at anything you do not intend to shoot.

Thernlund
August 15, 2008, 04:14 PM
I'll bet that after he had some time to stew over it at home he felt absolutely terrible. The "what if's" begin piling up in your head so fast you can't keep track.

Things like that will certainly put you off going shooting for awhile, eh?


-T.

papajohn
August 15, 2008, 04:54 PM
Things like that have put me off going to public ranges for twenty years. I spent enough time ducking muzzles at the PD, I don't need it in my free time!

PJ

lookn4varmints
August 15, 2008, 07:04 PM
Geez, he left without offering an apology? I would have been on my face begging for the forgiveness of my idiocy.

kingpin008
August 15, 2008, 07:09 PM
So wait - His pistol had a stovepipe, but still fired when he pressed the trigger?

That's a pretty...interesting malfunction.:scrutiny:

nplant
August 15, 2008, 07:19 PM
I'm inferring that he *cleared* the malfunction with finger on the trigger. Who knows how he did it, but in my head, he plucks out the brass from the top, and also starts squeezing his trigger finger at the same time. Once the gun goes back in battery, his finger completes the trigger press, and KA-FLIPPIN-BOOM!

FCFC
August 15, 2008, 07:22 PM
Wonder what precisely happened?

Semi-automatics....

Old Grump
August 16, 2008, 03:37 PM
Lots of TV sets, coffee tables and walls have been decorated by members of any gunsite you can find and they can't all be blamed on the gun being a semi-automatic. Fool around long enough and some day you will be careless. Happened to me while deer hunting right after I had bragged about never having had a ND. Nobody hurt except my pride. Upset me so bad I had to get out of my car half way home and throw up in a ditch. Don't know what happened to that guy or whether it was a gun problem, lack of training or just a moment of carelessness but it happens.

General Geoff
August 16, 2008, 04:33 PM
To err is human. That's why there are four rules, not just one. Hope he learns from his mistake.

Technosavant
August 16, 2008, 05:03 PM
That's where I normally go to shoot. Hopefully that idiot won't be there the next time I go. The range officers there tend to be pretty strict (I know many folks don't like that), but the fact is that there are plenty of extremely irresponsible people with guns and they use the same facilities as the responsible ones.

When I was teaching my sisters to shoot, each time there was some moron like this there- they didn't have a ND, but they were constantly getting corrected for rules violations. As I said to my sisters, "Don't be that person."

feedthehogs
August 16, 2008, 05:25 PM
To err is human

Need to get that mentality out of gun owners heads.

Its used as an excuse to rationalize bad habits, behaviour and just plain stupidity.

jonmerritt
August 16, 2008, 05:39 PM
To err is human, but to err with a loaded gun is a moment of idiocy. Followed be several moments of crapping in your pants.

Eric F
August 16, 2008, 07:13 PM
Just because the muzzle is pointed in the wrong direction does not make it a negligent"discharge". Its unsafe and negligent for sure but the discharge could have been accidental due to mechanical failure. Maybe the gun doubled and caused the stovepipe. Maybe the fireing pin was jamed at to where it hit the primer when he cleared the stove pipe.

I really do dislike all this finger pointing and calling of negligencewith out hard facts. There can always be a acidental discharge with negligence. For example you chamber a round and due to mechanical failure gun goes bang(ad). Bullet leaves gun goes through floor and hits neighbor in down stairs apartment(with negligence).

Do we really know what actually hapened in the op or are we all going on assumption?

DrLaw
August 16, 2008, 09:03 PM
I saw a guy have three cartridges stuck in the chamber area at one time. He was wiggling the gun all over the place to try to get the mess undone. I sent him packing off the range, the people in the outer area sent him back in! :what:

Same guy had a nasty habit of starting to aim by raising his gun above his head, slowly bringing it down, WITH his finger in the trigger guard.

Now that guy was scary AND dangerous. Not using our range anymore.

The Doc is out now. :cool:

ColinthePilot
August 16, 2008, 09:54 PM
I'm not sure I understand how this was a negligent discharge. I just dry fired my pistol (pointed in a safe direction, of course). I started by locking the slide back, pulled the trigger, then released the slide with my finger on the trigger. the hammer didn't drop until i let the trigger reset and pulled again. This sounds like AD due to mechanical failure and pointed in a bad direction. Also, what direction was it pointed? was it aimed at people, or at the bench? Need more facts.

jad0110
August 16, 2008, 10:02 PM
Quote:
To err is human

Need to get that mentality out of gun owners heads.

Its used as an excuse to rationalize bad habits, behaviour and just plain stupidity.

Though I agree with what you are trying to say, I think all General Geoff was saying is that none of us are perfect. Therefore, no matter how careful and deligent we may be, we are all capable of having a momentary lapse. The 4 rules overlap for this very reason. I am not advocating carelessness, nor do I think this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy; I do believe that if we all at least acknowledge that yes, stupid can happen to any of us, it can make us even more deligent than we would be otherwise.

I saw a guy have three cartridges stuck in the chamber area at one time.

:eek: I for one would love to know how this is even physically possible :p ... and DrLaw, I am not questioning your story ... just scratching my head, that's all.

esmith
August 17, 2008, 12:27 AM
He was with his wife and was working on a stovepipe with one in the chamber. His handgun wasn't pointed down range and he had his finger on the trigger while trying to remove the stovepipe and BANG.

http://www.funnyforumpics.com/forums/Demotivational/4/picard-no-facepalm.jpg (http://www.funnyforumpics.com)

I needed to use this one.

JTW Jr.
August 17, 2008, 01:58 AM
ND are nothing to be taken likely , and ND can severely injury someone , safety is priority 1.

However , as much as we all preach gun safety , how much other safety do you practice ? Do you give , lets say driving , the same significance as you do handling a loaded firearm ? do you drive while talking on your cell ? are you reckless weaving in and out of traffic ( perhaps WHILE talking on your cell) ?
My point is , if you don't practice it all the time , and pay extreme attention , eventually it will happen.

Wish they would refer to auto accidents as Negligent Driving :)

cell phones don't kill people , negligent people driving while talking on cell phones kill people.

;)

hotshotshoting
August 17, 2008, 07:30 AM
if you own guns the odds of you having at least 1 nd, or ad at some point in your life is very high...

however it is best to try not to ever have that happen but the sad truth is that stupid does happen to everyone human...

anyone who says that it will never happen to them makes me think about someone who tells me they can have "relations" without a condom and never get someone pregnant just because they know when to "pull out"

Matt G
August 17, 2008, 07:50 AM
To err is human

Need to get that mentality out of gun owners heads.

Its used as an excuse to rationalize bad habits, behaviour and just plain stupidity

I disagree. There are four rules to maintian redundancy for when one or more of them are broken. If any single rule is followed, an accident won't become a tragedy.

He broke the finger on the trugger rule. He broke the All Guns Are Always Loaded rule. He did keep the Safe Direction rule, inasmuch as the bullet struck table, not skin. The Be Certain Of Your Target rule does not especially apply, here.

We ARE human. We WILL make mistakes. Make sure that they are minimized by putting multiple safeties between your ears.

bruss01
August 17, 2008, 10:44 AM
Nambu wrote:
I was taught by my father and have taught my children, never point a gun at anything you do not intend to shoot.

The most important part of this lesson is, the word "point" refers not to your intention, but to the physical direction of the muzzle.

After dwelling on this for a moment, you realize the gun is ALWAYS pointed SOMEWHERE, even when it's in a holster.

The key is to always keep it pointed in the SAFEST possible direction.

I'm sure that the shooter who had this ND wasn't consciously pointing it anywhere, nevertheless the muzzle was still facing something that wasn't a target, i.e. not the safest possible direction. At the range, downrange is the only place the muzzle should point, because that is the safest direction. At home, it will be different - if you are upstairs and people are downstairs, pointing at the floor is not safest. If you are downstairs and people are upstairs, likewise. It requires a bit of thought to always determine the safest direction. That is what this rule does, it implies that one should always be THINKING when handling a gun. And THINKING will prevent the vast majority of ND's.

Jeff F
August 17, 2008, 11:41 AM
Guy's these kind of things do happen. If you handle firearms long enough the odds are it will happen to you. Hopefully we all learn from these events and no one gets hurt. Live by the four rules!

Loomis
August 17, 2008, 11:52 AM
DrLaw:

The guy that lowers his gun to the target was shooting an old revolver wasn't he? That's how they used to do it. They trained people to shoot that way.

There's nothing unsafe about it imo. What's the worst that could happen? He fires off a round before the barrel is completely lowered to the target?

So what?

papajohn
August 17, 2008, 04:57 PM
If he's lowering the muzzle with his finger on the trigger, yes, bad things can happen. The guy fires the handgun prematurely, the bullet goes through the roof, and comes down somewhere besides the backstop. Not good.

When I was testing pistol loads that took up very little air space in the case, I have been known to tilt the gun up to orient the powder on the primer........but not with my finger on the trigger!

PJ

Loomis
August 17, 2008, 05:02 PM
Are you kidding me? Who the hell takes their finger out of the trigger guard to cock a revolver? The barrel tips up everytime you cock a revolver. So by your reasoning, cocking a revolver is unsafe.

Please, don't make me laugh.

JTW Jr.
August 17, 2008, 05:08 PM
the bll doesn't have to tip up every time you cock a revolver.

besides , who the heck thumbs cocks a double action wheelgun ? ;)

Realbigo
August 17, 2008, 05:17 PM
I've got a question for all of you. How do you react to a newby, on the sales floor mind you, not on the range having the muzzle pointed in your direction as they make sure the pistol they were just handed is indeed empty? After a few responses I'll tell the rest of the story.

hotshotshoting
August 17, 2008, 05:24 PM
dr law normally people tend to jam 2 cartridges in the chamber "area" its called double feed it happens quite often with inexperienced shooters... also if the guy was shooting with 1 hand, standing sideways, 1 hand in the pocket, raising the gun above the target and coming down on to target is called bullseye shooting... odds are you werent in danger regardless how much danger you felt...


be more careful when someone is saying hey this gun doesn't work.. and turns around to show someone while pulling the trigger over and over thats always fun..

Realbigo
August 17, 2008, 06:07 PM
I saw that happen once on NG range. My Gunny went ballistic. Figuratively speaking.

Loomis
August 17, 2008, 06:26 PM
I thumbcock a double action revolver! I suppose I have a tendency to shoot everything as if it were a big ole walker colt black powder 6shooter. And just as another poster here mentioned the "standing sideways and shooting one handed" style of shooting...

I DO THAT AS WELL.

Not just with revolvers, but with ALL handguns. It's the way I was taught as a youngster. I've been stubborn enough to not change for this long, I figgure I'll keep being stubborn for a few more years.

And If some fool kicks me off a shooting range for doing so, there's gonna be a real colorful argument directed right to his face.

Old Grump
August 18, 2008, 10:20 PM
Usually do it with the off hand but I rarely shoot double action except to keep familiar with it. For target shooting or hunting I shoot single action no matter what gun I am using. I do not put my finger on the trigger till I have a sight picture, one concession to not wanting an accidental discharge.

FCFC
August 18, 2008, 11:04 PM
I mostly shoot revolvers. Almost always shoot them double action. For me, I don't see much need for single action.

How do you react to a newby, on the sales floor mind you, not on the range having the muzzle pointed in your direction as they make sure the pistol they were just handed is indeed empty? After a few responses I'll tell the rest of the story.

I get very uneasy, very quickly.I will always move away from the direction that the gun is pointed in while the person (newb or otherwise) is handling the gun.

GingerGuy
September 5, 2008, 05:20 PM
ND are nothing to be taken likely , and ND can severely injure someone , safety is priority 1.

Well, I went shooting today again at the August Busch Conservation Range and was talking with one of the rangers. I learned one of the reasons the guy with the ND left so fast.

His ND hit himself in the finger, missed the bone, but did take the meat off too the bone. Must have been a pretty good hunk of flesh that was removed.

The ranger said it was the first one that has happened this year, but they do happen from time to time, even here. And always on the pistol side of the range.

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