Traffic Stop WHY Is It Safer To Inform


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Treo
August 17, 2008, 03:30 AM
This isn't a legal question. I understand the legal requirements of my state.

There are a lot of different opinions here about wheather its better to let the police know your carrying during a minor traffic stop.

One of the most frequent arguments I hear is that it's for Officer safety and your safety, but nobody ever seems able to explain why.

I want to look at why people think it's safer.

I want to set these parameters because this is how it would be if I were the one getting pulled over ( I don't care how you do it in Texas)

1. I have no legal duty to inform unless asked.

2. My name will not come up on the CCIS database the cop will not know I'm armed unless he asks me. ( if he does I'm obligated to give him my permit)

3. When I am driving my gun is either in the glove box, in the gunsafe bolted to the floor, or on my hip. ( if I'm asked to step out I inform)

4. I have my license POI & registration in my hand before the cop gets to my car I.E the cop isn't going to see my gun when I reach for them

Long story short the cop isn't going to see my gun and he isn't going to know I'm armed unless I tell him.

To me it just adds that much more stress to the situation because it hands the cop one more problem to solve

So why is it safer if I tell him? how does the cop knowing I have a permit ( and in Colorado I don't need a permit to conceal in my car) change the dynamic of the stop and make it "safer" ?

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Deus Machina
August 17, 2008, 03:36 AM
From the officer that taught my CC class, verbatim...

"Unless he asks or it's somewhere he'll see it when you go for your papers, don't tell him. It'll only stress him out. If he'll see it or it's on you and he asks you to step out, put your hands on the wheel and say "Officer, my firearm is <over here>, what do you want me to do?""

This guy said he'll usually ask the driver to get out, hands in front of him, and he'll reach in for the gun, unload it, and set it on the trunk. Then let the driver get everything he needs. IMO, the best thing to do under most circumstances.

No duty to inform unless it's in your state's laws or the officer asked. I can see why it's a good idea, though--if the officer asks for your license and registration, if your gun shows when you reach in your pocket, or you open the glove compartment and there's a S&W in there on top of it...

In the latter case, you'd likely have to move the gun, or at least pull the papers out from under it. And how's a cop supposed to feel about your hands going toward a gun?

I agree with my CCW teacher. Unless he asks or he'll see it, don't ask; don't tell.

kingpin008
August 17, 2008, 03:46 AM
Agreed. If I don't have a duty to inform, I wouldn't say anything. Now, if he asked, and I was obligated by law to answer, of course I'd inform him. Until then, he doesn't need to know.

Treo
August 17, 2008, 03:50 AM
, and he'll reach in for the gun,

At which time I'd be the one stressing

if the officer asks for your license and registration, if your gun shows when you reach in your pocket, or you open the glove compartment and there's a S&W in there on top of it...

Did you read the part of my post where I outlined why neither of the above is going to happen?

Deus Machina
August 17, 2008, 04:03 AM
Did you read the part of my post where is outlined why neither of the above is going to happen?

To be honest, not until after I posted. I skimmed over that part before reading it thoroughly. :p

But I didn't edit that out, because it's a general thing for anyone else that may be wondering. Some of the twitchier cops (at least two of the ones that gave a friend of mine a couple of his stupid number of tickets) get a little nervous when you reach into a glove box before they get there.

jakemccoy
August 17, 2008, 05:04 AM
I'd avoid informing, unless it comes down to a need to know situation. The idea of the cop handling and unloading my gun would make me tense. I have no reason to believe the cop knows what he's doing.

goon
August 17, 2008, 05:25 AM
I've always informed for my safety.
Cops get killed doing "routine" traffic stops.
Cops know in the back of their minds that they can easily get killed during a routine traffic stop.

So the new guy tags me doing 50 in a 35, hits the siren, and pulls me over.
He walks up to my window and somehow notices that I'm packing a 9mm. Sure, it's concealed but what if my shirt rode up while I was fishing my registration out?
Do I want a panicky cop on my hands right then?

Nope.
So I just tell them to begin with. Every single time the cops have appreciated knowing that I had a gun and they've just asked that I keep it put away.

As for the rest of ya', whatever floats your boats is fine with me.

Majic
August 17, 2008, 06:30 AM
If I have to reach in the same general area of where my concealed weapon is I will inform the LEO first. That's in case I happen to expose the weapon while getting my wallet. No need in little surprises between 2 total strangers.
The idea of the cop handling and unloading my gun would make me tense. I have no reason to believe the cop knows what he's doing.
I personally unload my handgun and hand the LEO the now safe handgun and ammo seperately if he/she wants to take control of it. In each instance where that has happen to me the LEO then hands it back to me the same way. Everyone has stayed safe. You still have to remember and practice safe gun handling rules.

Matt G
August 17, 2008, 06:43 AM
Hell, I'm a cop, and I see little point in it.

If you're a good guy, and it's a normal stop, and the gun isn't going to be otherwise seen or referenced... I'd let it go, unless the law specifically requires you to inform (as TX CHL holders must, when armed).

Some guys get all wrapped up in the gun, to the exclusion of all else. Some cops (not all. Not even most.) feel that They're The Only Ones Who Should Be Armed. Why bring it up unless you have to?

BUT:
Do NOT go about trying to quickly dig your papers out of the pistol-containing glove box before the officer makes his approach. Best plan is to keep your docs in a separate place from your gun.

Starship1st
August 17, 2008, 09:05 AM
Matt:

My CCW instructor told me that when the officer runs your plate and name your CCW license will show up too is this true?

He suggests when you hand over your license you show your CCW license as well? :cool:

Biker
August 17, 2008, 09:12 AM
In Idaho, when they run your license, your CWP shows up.

Biker

aguyindallas
August 17, 2008, 09:14 AM
In Texas, your CHL is NOT linked to your plate. It is linked to your drivers license.

Think about this: Your friend, wife, cousin, sister, neighbor borrows your truck, gets pulled over and the plate is ran as they make the stop...the officer would already be potentially more tense about the stop than he needs to be, and it MAY NOT EVEN BE YOU behind the wheel.

SCKimberFan
August 17, 2008, 09:15 AM
^ Same thing in NC & SC, although both NC & SC require you to inform them.

aguyindallas
August 17, 2008, 09:17 AM
In Texas, we do have the duty to inform IF YOU ARE CARRYING. If not, you have no duty to inform you have a license. The couple times I have been pulled over, I handed my DL, CHL and insurance, all in one swoop. 1 of the 2 times, I was asked where the weapon was, and that was the end of it (other than me getting the ticket).

Treo
August 17, 2008, 09:18 AM
I carry a copy of my registration & POI, as well as my DL, in my wallet that I pull out as soon as he lights me up.

I have another copy of both in a holder on the visor.

Neither is any where near my gun when the cop gets to my car.

I personally unload my handgun and hand the LEO the now safe handgun and ammo seperately

To me, that is asking for trouble if the cop is paranoid enough to ask for my weapon I don't want to be jacking around W/ it. I may ask if I can clear it first, but I'd never want to make a false move W/ gun in my hand and a freaked out cop standing behind me.

the times I've dealt W/ this I was told "leave your piece right where its at. Don't reach for it don't touch it."

Like, I'm glad you told me that cause I was just going to whip it out for the hell of it.

Oh and I find it incredibly interesting that 15 posts into this nobody's come up W/ a good reason as to why it's safer.

TallPine
August 17, 2008, 09:44 AM
Best plan is to keep your docs in a separate place from your gun.


I dunno why this is so hard ???

Seems like everybody can fully think through every possibility including zombies but can't plan ahead enough to have a separate place for your papers :rolleyes:

TexasRifleman
August 17, 2008, 10:15 AM
I want to set these parameters because this is how it would be if I were the one getting pulled over ( I don't care how you do it in Texas)

If I were not required to inform LE by law I would not do things any different than you suggest here.

I don't see how the officer, or me, are any safer by him knowing I have passed a very detailed background check. In Texas the background check for CHLs is actually more intrusive than for cops so I should be the worried one, not the cop.

O C
August 17, 2008, 10:23 AM
I asked this question when I went for my renewal this week. The answer I got was "The officer will know if you have a permit before he gets out of his vehicle. Then its up to him to ask or ignore" Sounds reasonable to me.

tblt
August 17, 2008, 10:25 AM
They don't ask I don't tell
Both my trucks are registered in my wifes name and she does not have a permit

SCKimberFan
August 17, 2008, 10:25 AM
O C

I would check your state's laws before I take the word of anyone else. Some require you to inform, while many do not.

76shuvlinoff
August 17, 2008, 10:31 AM
I think it's safer if he think's I'm being above board about the situation we both are in at that moment.

However.... I recent got stopped for an non DOT helmet (I live in Michigan) and I did not inform the officer about the .45 in the saddlebag. Had I been required to go digging through it I would have made an announcement and he could make the call from there.

JackBurtonJr
August 17, 2008, 10:33 AM
Indiana is a "don't need to tell" state.

I don't tell on an ordinary stop but if ever asked to get out of the car I will.

From what I understand it is best to first say "I have a permit" before you say "I have a gun." :eek:

I've heard multiple retellings of two different kinds of experiences on both sides of the bell curve...

where the cop saw the permit and just let the person go, knowing that he was a pretty good guy...

and where the cop got all excited and really, really jacked the person up, including roadside semi-strip searches and handcuffs.

Ya just never know which end, if either, you're going to fall on.

dalepres
August 17, 2008, 10:37 AM
In Oklahoma, you are legally required to tell any police officer with whom you have official contact. So, passing on the street or he's sitting next to you at the counter at your favorite lunch joint, don't say a thing. If he pulls you over, if he stops to see if you need assistance on the roadside, etc. then you have to tell.

In my cars there are multiple storage locations in the front. My little car has a mini glove box on the left, just big enough to carry my insurance and registration papers. In that car, I can keep my gun on the glove box in front of the passenger seat but I usually keep it in my lunch box where it is closer. In my other car, I keep the gun in the center console and paperwork in the glove box.

I haven't been pulled over while carrying but when it happens, I will simply roll the window down before the officer gets to the car and leave both hands on the wheel until I tell him I have a concealed carry license and am carrying a weapon. After that, I follow orders. I think he will ask where the gun is, and I'll tell him. Hopefully, he will ask where the paperwork is and I'll point out it is a different location from the gun. Now everyone can start to calm down.

Another point of Oklahoma law is, as I understand it, that the officer cannot disarm you. He cannot ask to see, inspect, or remove your weapon if you are legally carrying it. On this point, I go back to my previous rule. Once he knows I am armed, I follow orders - even if he wants to disarm me. I'd rather not have to sort out who's right or who's wrong from jail. Or the hostpital. Or for my wife to have to sort it out because I'm dead.

pbearperry
August 17, 2008, 10:55 AM
Why any state would require you to inform a cop that you legally possess firearms is beyond me.What's next,having to inform the cop you are on blood pressure meds?

Biker
August 17, 2008, 10:59 AM
Yup, every contact I have with a cop I try to make as smooth as possible. I look like the kind of man that makes cops nervous so I push as few buttons as possible - I let 'em know what I'm carrying and where.

Makes life easier for everyone and I don't get a ticket for tall handlebars or loud pipes.

Biker

Loomis
August 17, 2008, 11:05 AM
The county cop sargent that taught my carry class told us NOT to tell city cops you are carrying.

He didn't have a very high opinion of city cops.

jaholder1971
August 17, 2008, 11:06 AM
Well, the officer's already going to assume I'm carrying if he's smart, so you may as well acknowledge you are and put away all doubt.

He should also know that with the CHL you're allowed to by State law, which may or may not help.

More importantly, I want him to know I'm armed and it's legal before i have to reach for any additional paperwork, possibly expose my piece and have it appear that I'm going for a weapon. That, my friends, is bad Ju-ju.

Treo
August 17, 2008, 11:08 AM
Starting the second page and still no "Why". Things that make you go hmmmmm.

cassandrasdaddy
August 17, 2008, 11:12 AM
you might read harder i read several whys. but then again they don't fit some folks agenda. if i was scared of the cops o might not tell. i don't find em scary anymore. not in more than a decade. though it took almost 10 years from when they stopped being my enemy for me to mature enough to realize it.

ShakyJ
August 17, 2008, 11:23 AM
The few times I've been pulled over since obtaining my permit, I have always informed the officer. I figure the more at ease I can make the officer, the better. If I'm pulled over, I put my truck in park, turn off the ignition and place the keys on the dash. I lower my driver's side window and turn on the dome light (if dark). I place my hands on the wheel at 10 and 2 with palms up. I await for officer instruction and when asked for license and registration, I inform the officer at that time that I have a CC permit. Typically, they simply ask if I am armed and where the weapon is located. I want him to know I have a glock 19 IWB on my right hip in the event that the gun is revealed while reaching for my wallet.

I've been pulled over three times since I got my permit 8 years ago (1 ticket and 2 warnings). Each time, the officer in question was professional and asked where my weapon was located. None of the officers asked to see my weapon nor did any of them attempt to disarm me.

MinnMooney
August 17, 2008, 12:03 PM
I agree (in principal) with everything that you've said. If asked to 'exit my vehicle', I'd immediately inform the officer that I have a legally carried weapon. One time when I got pulled over for a mechanical issue, we started to chat and I mentioned that I had a carry permit and was carrying a weapon on my person. He said he appreciated it that I mentioned it....... End of story! We continued talking about something else.

cassandrasdaddy
August 17, 2008, 12:13 PM
the older i get the more simplistic my thinking. i try to "flip the script" if i was a cop pulling someone over i believe it would be safer if they chose to swallow their feeling of resentment and oppresion anf let me know. that way when i see a gun i'm not surprised and react in a way that makes everyone unhappy. i'm not a real internet hero and in that situation finding an unexpected gun might scare me. and scared sometimes makes me do things i wish i didn't. io keep hanging on the internet so i can learn from the real heroes how to be a btyeer man and get past those kinda human responses that hold me back. till then that tired old saw about do unto others is my default position. scuse me i need to go find some boots to lick.

Jeff White
August 17, 2008, 12:27 PM
Starting the second page and still no "Why". Things that make you go hmmmmm.

Not everyone carries like you do. A very good why, is so you aren't looking down the barrel of the officer's weapon if he sees yours. It's just that simple. I see plenty of posts here about people who carry handguns in the door pockets of their vehicle, on the console, in the glove box, on the floor under the seat.....It might be fine for you and the way you carry, but it's not going to be fine for the entire population. I say that if you are going to be in a position where the officer might discover your weapon, it's better to tell him it's there first.

No CCW in Illinois so I've never had to deal with it on a traffic stop, but in the rural area I worked, I would guess there was at least a shotgun in a good percentage of the vehicles I stopped from Aug through Feb.

Jeff

Mike J
August 17, 2008, 12:40 PM
Where I live there is no duty to inform. It is legal to carry a firearm in a personal vehicle as long as it is in the glove compartment or console or in plain sight without a permit. I do have a license but unless I am asked or think they will see it I will not announce that I have a firearm.
On another note, when I was about 14 I was instructed on what to do in a traffic stop by one of my fathers state patrol buddies. He walked me through his approach to the vehicle what he watched for etc. Then he instructed me that when pulled over I should put both turn off the ignition & put both hands on top of the steering wheel. I should not reach for anything until instructed to do so by the officer. No need to make them nervous. I have always kept all necessary papers away from my firearms-avoids the problem.

76shuvlinoff
August 17, 2008, 01:13 PM
my reason why I believe it's safer in some situtations to inform.

I think it's safer if he think's I'm being above board about the situation we both are in at that moment.

jakemccoy
August 17, 2008, 03:13 PM
The anecdotal story about one person's experience with one cop really doesn't prove anything.

For example, "I strolled through South Central Los Angeles last night without getting robbed." That does not prove that it's safe to stroll through South Central Los Angeles at night.

I think it's safer if he think's I'm being above board about the situation we both are in at that moment.

That's a assuming you're dealing with a calm, reasonable, intelligent cop.

If you don't tell unless necessary, you cover all bases for any kind of cop out there.

Treo
August 17, 2008, 03:20 PM
Sorry guys I DO see the why's I guess I was expecting a little different phrasing.

O.K. I see 2 why's
1. If your asked to step out of the vehicle. I totally agree W/ that one. If you're asked to step out it's really not a good sign anyway.

2. If you think the cop might see it.

To me on the second,you would be better served by moving the gun to someplace where the cop WON'T see it.

Nobody has ever posted here that they got pulled over and the cop told them that they being let go because they had a CHP.

I only see a negative ( you get an anti cop) or a neutral ( cop couldn't care less) out come.

The problem is you don't know the cop is an Anti until he knows you've got a gun.

jakemccoy
August 17, 2008, 03:21 PM
It's necessary to know the state where people are. It's like we're each preparing for a different sport but don't even realize it.

From what I understand it is best to first say "I have a permit" before you say "I have a gun."

In California, you're more likely to be legally traveling with a gun while without a CCW permit. I don't have a CCW permit because I live in one of those counties where it's practically impossible to get one. That's why I'm inclined not to say I'm traveling legally with a gun. It's a need to know situation. In California, when a person is traveling legally, the cop really never needs to know. Traveling legally with a handgun in California means the handgun is unloaded and locked in a container separately from the ammo. The only thing a cop could do is perform a dick maneuver (confiscate, freak out for no reason, etc.). Basically, the best method here is going to be dependent on your state.

Zundfolge
August 17, 2008, 03:28 PM
Cops get killed doing "routine" traffic stops.
How often by licensed CCWers though?


I have no legal duty to report, so I'll have to play it by ear but there are pros and cons to telling an officer you're armed.

Pros:
If you're in a gun friendly area with pro CCW cops a CHL is often a "get out of ticket free" card (not always and not everywhere, but most cops around here do recognize a CHL as a "good guy" card and will treat you as such).
If you don't and your gun is detected it'll make the cop REAL nervous ... nervous cop is a bad thing. Most cops will see your failure to report as being less than honest with them ... cops hate liars.

Cons:
I don't like being treated like a criminal and some cops will almost treat you like a felon when they find you're armed, still others will lecture you about how "you people" don't need guns, etc.
I don't trust most officers to know squat about any gun other than the one on their hip (and often they don't know it well). I don't need some officer disarming me "for my own safety" and then sweeping me with the muzzle while he tries to figure out the manual of arms of a loaded gun he knows nothing about. A holstered gun is a safe gun.


Around here If I get pulled over by an El Paso County Sheriff's Deputy, I'll probably tell him, but if its a Colorado Springs PD officer I'll have to make up my mind based on the officer (I'm going to get flamed for this, but I'd be less likely to tell a minority officer I'm armed as they're more likely to be "armed social workers" that don't approve of guns in the hands of us "civilians").

Of course I have to reach past my gun to get my wallet, so if they ask for license regardless of department or other factor I'll probably tell them.

LKB3rd
August 17, 2008, 03:34 PM
It isn't safer during a simple traffic stop. If the officer feels like you might shoot him at any time, then it might make him *feel* safer to disarm you and treat you like a potential murderer. If you are indeed a law abiding, responsible gun owner, telling him makes no one safer.
If he is going to frisk you, or arrest you and search you, then it is safer to tell him so he can handle it safely, and doesn't have to search around for it.

86thecat
August 17, 2008, 04:10 PM
A LEO interacting with any one needs to be prepared for the worse. A gang banger, mass murderer or psycho isn't going to inform a cop he has a weapon. A legal ccw should be the least of his worries.

ClickClickD'oh
August 17, 2008, 04:37 PM
Why? Because police officers have a knack for discovering things that people either A) Didn't want them to see -or- B) Didn't want them to figure out.... and they tend to get mighty unhappy and suspicious like when they do.

Eliminating as many variables that can make traffic stops go sideways is good for both the officer, and the driver.

Let them know you are a good guy up front. Makes things easier.

Duke Junior
August 17, 2008, 05:10 PM
It's necessary to know the state where people are. It's like we're each preparing for a different sport but don't even realize it.

jakemccoy makes a good point here.So lifted from another thread last night where Treo(who's theme I completely agree with) got this thread idea, are the states with the 'must notify' rule.

Only 10 states have the must notify rule.
They are AK,LA,MI,NE,NC,OH,OK,SC,TX and UT.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=385906

Treo
August 17, 2008, 05:16 PM
Why? Because police officers have a knack for discovering things that people either A) Didn't want them to see -or- B) Didn't want them to figure out

that's interesting I've never had a cop pull me over and figure out that I'm armed W/out me telling them.

Eliminating as many variables that can make traffic stops go sideways is good for both the officer, and the driver

Wouldn't the variable be just as eliminated if you put the gun where the cop won't find it W/out adding the "you just got pulled over by a cop who doesn't like guns" variable




Let them know you are a good guy up front.

As has been pointed out serveral times on this board all CHP tells the officer is that you were a "good guy" on the day you got your back ground check. And if you get an anti cop it doesn't even tell him that

SCKimberFan
August 17, 2008, 05:56 PM
If CHP holders are 'good guys', why are they getting pulled over? :evil:

TexasRifleman
August 17, 2008, 06:06 PM
If CHP holders are 'good guys', why are they getting pulled over?

Being such a "good guy" I think I'm entitled to air my car out on the highway now and then i suppose. It's the only law I knowingly break :)

I mean, think of all the good clean living I've had to do to pass the background checks? Surely I'm allowed some fun now and then right?

I mean, it was only 110 miles an hour and seriously, I was the ONLY car on the road in that part of Louisiana at the time :)

Well, except for that state trooper.....but he was shockingly understanding.

http://homepage.mac.com/jayc67/110mph.jpg

ridata
August 17, 2008, 06:33 PM
Off topic, but I must say, TexasRifleman, I think that is one sweet picture. :D

TexasRifleman
August 17, 2008, 06:39 PM
Off topic, but I must say, TexasRifleman, I think that is one sweet picture.

Oh I think the whole thread is off topic, I'm just waiting for the mods to come back from their Sunday dinners, but thanks :)

hoosier8
August 17, 2008, 06:42 PM
I cannot offer why it is safer, but I will offer a "why" it might not be.

After I heard this story, I keep my mouth shut. Indiana is a state you don't have to tell, so I don't.

I was talking to a guy that carries and he always tells the police that he is carrying. He always gets put in cuffs while the cop clears the weapon. He said that one time, the cop took his pistol and while trying to figure out how to clear it, he had it pointing at him, the driver. He said that it made his skin crawl. It was a pistol the cop was not familiar with. That alone is a good reason to keep mum if you don't have to tell. Stuff happens.

If it was going to apparent that my weapon would get discovered, I would tell that I have a permit, but I never get in that position. First, if I keep in on me, it is concealed and there would have to be some probable cause to search me. If I have had something to drink, I keep it in the car or leave it at home (and I don't keep it in the glove box where my registration is). Again, the police need to have some kind of reason to search your car, like visibly seeing drugs or something illegal in the car, otherwise, they cannot search your car without your permission, and I don't give permission. Think of it as an extension of your house.

TAB
August 17, 2008, 06:46 PM
Becuase No matter how good I think I am at concealing a weapon, at some point, Its not going to be concealed.

I see lots of CCs exposing thier weapons all the time.( it should be noted that I live in an area where getting a CCW, is impossiable unless you personally know the sheriff, ie donated money too him or you are a LEO) If a person can tell, then a LEO should( being the key word here) be able to tell. I don't know about you, but I don't like having guns pointed at me, if a scrap of paper and a few well choosen words can prevent that... I'm going to do it.

Duke Junior
August 17, 2008, 07:46 PM
Off topic, but I must say, TexasRifleman, I think that is one sweet picture.:D

Agreed.And nowhere near the red line.What a car!

cassandrasdaddy
August 17, 2008, 09:09 PM
Again, the police need to have some kind of reason to search your car, like visibly seeing drugs or something illegal in the car, otherwise, they cannot search your car without your permission, and I don't give permission. Think of it as an extension of your house.

good luck using that community college jd

hoosier8
August 17, 2008, 10:26 PM
good luck using that community college jd

Well, it's the law, and we are a nation of laws. You can use them to your benefit.

wyocarp
August 17, 2008, 11:05 PM
When I got stopped recently, the patrolman knew I had a permit as he walked up to the truck, assuming that I was the one driving the truck. He had to have been shocked by the sheer number of guns he saw when he arrived at the window though. He did ask if there were more, to which I answered, "oh yeah." He watched me go right passed my strong side pistol which was right by my rear pocket. I even had to adjust my gun to get my wallet out and not a word was said.

I later asked him about it and he said that he figured that if I was going to shoot him I would have already done so and that it was Wyoming and everyone has guns.

If I were a cop, I would assume that everyone had a gun and then the surprise would be just the opposite.


The only good thing about telling them that I can figure out is that maybe if you weren't too out of line, that they might cut you some slack for being a more upstanding citizen. :)

FLA2760
August 17, 2008, 11:30 PM
My buddy is a retired NYPD detective and is currently a patrol deputy here in Florida. Back in the early 80s when he was still in uniform he and his partner did a car stop in midtown Manhattan. He was talking with the driver and his partner was standing by the passenger side window. The motorist reaches out to give my friend his paperwork and the butt of his holstered Ruger peeked out from under his shirt. My friends partner yells GUN and has his service revolver aimed at the guy. My friend say's relax he has a carry permit and is a PI. The partner saw the gun a second before my friend was going to tell him the guy is a PI and armed. Turns out the guy was the brother of a NYC judge. I guess that is why he got a NYC carry permit!

Old Dog
August 18, 2008, 03:12 AM
I find it strangely amusing that certain THR members seem to obsess so much about getting pulled over (while they're packing) for traffic stops by the police, feel the need to post so often about the apparent complexities of this process and constantly wonder publicly what the best course of action is ... all the while trying to manipulate discussion to "prove" that your average cop doesn't approve of citizens carrying firearms and does his level best to make every citizen-LEO encounter as painful as possible for Joe Sixpack who is licensed to carry a concealed handgun.

Me, I find that observing traffic laws works best, and in the unlikely event that I am pulled over, common courtesy seems to work wonders.

'Course, I guess I just live in a state with an alarming shortage of those rogue cops that enjoy hassling citizens who happen to be exercising their Second Amendment rights.

76shuvlinoff
August 18, 2008, 05:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 76
I think it's safer if he think's I'm being above board about the situation we both are in at that moment.

That's a assuming you're dealing with a calm, reasonable, intelligent cop.

If you don't tell unless necessary, you cover all bases for any kind of cop out there.

Well I can't really argue with that.

Trebor
August 18, 2008, 01:33 PM
There are two things you need to know when you decide whether to disclose your CCW status to an officer.

1. Is is legally required that you disclose? (Note that you need to check OTHER state laws when you travel outside your home state as you always need to follow the law of the state you are in at the time).

2. Will your CCW status come up on the computer when the officer runs your vehicle registration OR Driver's License through the system?


If your CCW status will come up through the computer, I highly recommend you disclose at the start of the stop. If you don't, the officer will be informed of your permit when he runs your info through and will then wonder why you didn't tell him and WHERE IS THE GUN?


If you aren't required to legally disclose, and your CCW status isn't revealed by the computer, then it's up to you. You can make good arguments either way, so just think it through and decide what's best for you. Know that if you decided NOT to disclose, and the officer somehow sees or detects your gun, he's going to be VERY unhappy and that is going to make you VERY unhappy until everything is explained and worked out.

cassandrasdaddy
August 18, 2008, 01:58 PM
"Know that if you decided NOT to disclose, and the officer somehow sees or detects your gun, he's going to be VERY unhappy and that is going to make you VERY unhappy until everything is explained and worked out."


but thats what some folks love being able to boldly "put one over on the man" and in real life too! not a net fantasy. plus when/if it goes awry they can whimper and whine for decades about it. play the oppresed card at starbucks or nrxt time the wto comes to town it gives em cred for picking up hot girls in black hoodies

ilbob
August 18, 2008, 02:02 PM
play the oppresed card at starbucks or nrxt time the wto comes to town it gives em cred for picking up hot girls in black hoodiesNot a bad idea. But does one actually have to go to the trouble to mess with the man to claim one has to the hotties? It would to be much safer not to. They can't be all that bright if they are with the wto protestor crowd.

FourTeeFive
August 18, 2008, 02:03 PM
I don't trust most officers to know squat about any gun other than the one on their hip (and often they don't know it well). I don't need some officer disarming me "for my own safety" and then sweeping me with the muzzle while he tries to figure out the manual of arms of a loaded gun he knows nothing about. A holstered gun is a safe gun.

That is one of my biggest fears.

jakemccoy
August 18, 2008, 02:20 PM
Yeah, an important point is that there's a reasonable chance the cop won't be totally safe with my gun. A horrible scenario is a negligent discharge that leads to an injury and other chaos.

If I disclose and the cop makes the decision to handle my gun, there's really nothing I can do about it. It's not like I can take control and deny the officer. I'm subject to whatever the officer has in store for me and my gun at that point. Saying something like "uh, no don't touch my gun" is not going to work. There are so many unknown scenarios that may play out that I'm not inclined to disclose unless necessary.

It's great if you live in Mayberry where the birds are always chirping and everything is reasonably logical and calm. Where I live, things have been known to go awry occasionally. If someone wants to handle my gun, I have a policy of assuming people (including cops) are stupid until proven otherwise. It's really not hard to prove minimal intelligence, but the proof is necessary. Before a cop actually handles my gun, there's not enough time at a traffic stop to find out if the cop has the minimal intelligence.

deaconkharma
August 18, 2008, 02:43 PM
SC law:
K) A permit holder must have his permit identification card in his possession whenever he carries a concealable weapon. When carrying a concealable weapon pursuant to Article 4 of Chapter 31 of Title 23, a permit holder must inform a law enforcement officer of the fact that he is a permit holder and present the permit identification card when an officer (1) identifies himself as a law enforcement officer and (2) requests identification or a driver’s license from a permit holder.

CWP status not tied with license or plates here in SC
I have always identified myself and had the police officers visibly relax and even tend to treat me better than your average Joe. One exception, as I have posted in a prior thread, I was stopped for a seatbelt violation (it's a primary stopping offense here in SC now- nevermind individual freedoms, personal choice, and such) anyway, I identify as usual and have all necessary paperwork handy. I literally am shocked, like I was slapped in the face, that the officer asks me to step to the back of the car to be disarmed. I am carrying a P3AT, in the little zipper sleeve thingy it comes with, in my right front pocket and I am not real comfortable with the guy fishing around in there. As I stated in the post regarding this earlier, I felt somehow my status as a "good guy" was cheapened. I felt less than enthused to identify myself ever again whether it be the embarrassment of having to be handled like a danger, or had my pockets dug in like a dealer, or the fact he could've touched off a round in my leg or foot. To me the firearm was secure and safe. Anytime it comes out, I see as dangerous. Anyway to NOT flame the officer or be perceived as anti-leo the guy was extremely nice about it and made a concession to disarm me in the crook of my door to help hide the disarmament from the abundant traffic of most of my neighbors getting off of work. Still, it looked like a drug dealer getting searched. He was very young and very new,I gathered, since he referred to what he was doing as a mandate from his training officer. I wonder if his TO is an anti? hmmm.

Confiding in a friend this experience,the underlined portion above was pointed out to me by my buddy and he said that is why he goes "glovebox" when in the car so he doesn't get any fuss or disarmed unnecessarily. So, I get to keep my gun inches away in a glove box and he never is the wiser or I can tell him and get disarmed, which is to me a dangerous thing (unfamiliarity with the gun such as examples that have been mentioned here in this thread)

Most of the police officers used to phrase myself and other CWP holders, one of the "good guys". Sad that I don't feel like one anymore. So now, the officer doesn't know, I keep my gun, and he keeps his warm fuzzy fellings and ignorance of my firearm.

Templar223
August 18, 2008, 02:59 PM
Over a relative non-issue?

If notification isn't required, it's not required. Use your best judgment when the times comes and then get on with life.

I'm not worried about it and I don't worry my students about it.

John

cassandrasdaddy
August 18, 2008, 04:10 PM
why handwringing? grandpa used to say if grandma didn't have anything to worry about she would buy a pair of tight shoes so she could worry about that

Zundfolge
August 18, 2008, 04:39 PM
Why all the handwringing?
Why are you questioning one of the main reasons for the existence of internet forums?

:neener:

FLA2760
August 18, 2008, 04:53 PM
In Florida you do not have to inform. I won't and yes obeying the traffic laws is key in not getting pulled over.

Infidel Cowboy
August 18, 2008, 10:07 PM
In FL, I'm not required to notify but will. I'd rather be up front about it and while I may be driving too fast, there is nothing illegal about my being armed. The permit gets handed to the officer along with the requested docs. I seem to recall Massad saying not to use the word "gun" since the word alone can set off flags. With both hands on the wheel:

"Officer, here are the documents you requested and my permit to carry concealed. It is a USP in condition 1 behind my right hip. I'd be happy to clear it by dropping the mag and racking the slide if you want. How would you like me to proceed?"

This lets him know I am armed, how to clear the weapon, and puts him clearly in charge - "how would you like me to proceed?"

My education in psychology tells me this should work, and Mas tells me the rest.:neener:

Off Topic: TexasRifleman, you've got 110 on the speedo and at least one (two:what:) hand(s) on the camera. :eek: No wonder you're concerned about how to handle being pulled over:evil: I know - you took that pic while the car was on the dyno...

IC

dalepres
August 18, 2008, 10:42 PM
It is a USP in condition 1 behind my right hip. I'd be happy to clear it by dropping the mag and racking the slide if you want. How would you like me to proceed?"

Huh? And I'd be happy to throw my keys out the window so you know I won't try to run over you. And I'd be happy to handcuff my hands to the steering wheel so you know I won't hit you. And I'd be happy to knock my teeth out so you know I won't bite you.


I mean come on now. In some states you have to tell.. So tell him you are armed. In some states you don't have to tell so you have a choice. Ok, decide; it's your choice. But get real. Just tell him you have a permit and you are carrying. If he wants you to clear the weapon, he'll absolutely let you know that without you offering to do a thing. And if I were a cop and you put your hand on your weapon to clear it, you'd either be leaving faceprints in the pavement or, if I had any doubt I could get you face down on the pavement, you might be dead.

Treo
August 18, 2008, 11:49 PM
I said I wasn't going to participate in this thread due to the pissing contests going on, but I can't let this pass.

Officer, here are the documents you requested and my permit to carry concealed. It is a USP in condition 1 behind my right hip. I'd be happy to clear it by dropping the mag and racking the slide if you want. How would you like me to proceed?"

I'm curious how the cops react to that. If I got that much information thrown at me when all I asked for was DL registration & POI, I think my head would melt.

If ( that's the key word) I'm asked I don't say a word I just hand the cop my CHP. You know what? They figure it out.

Infidel Cowboy
August 18, 2008, 11:57 PM
I realize it sounds a bit crazy and perhaps I should have clarified. I agree with you completely that reaching for the pistol is a very bad idea. Both my hands are on the wheel and I'm not moving until the officer tells me to. My intention is not to so much as lay a finger on my USP.

I want to go about my business. The officer wants to control the situation. This encounter is a negotiation like any other. I've found that folks are generally more apt to give me what I want if they get a bit of what they want. I give up nothing by informing the officer, and in the process give him everything he wants. I have told him that there is a weapon present and its location and condition. I've also ensured that the officer does not make a fool of himself or endanger me by not knowing how to clear it. I've told him exactly what must be done to make the weapon safe while not "telling him how," thereby endangering his position of authority and control. The officer remains in charge. If he decides to take control of my weapon, he can do so in a knowledgable fashion - or at least appear to.

His adrenaline is already up a bit for having to get it up to 90 to catch up with me doing 80. There are about a million variations on a theme that involve his discovery of my pistol - from there I figure it about 50 / 50 that I end up in cuffs at the back of the car while he figures stuff out. Once cuffed & there, I'm not able to find cover without attracting fire if he accidentally discharges a pistol he's not familiar with. By my question, all I have to worry about now is him not pointing it at me while he clears it.

I want him absolutely certain that he controls the situation. If he feels like he has to assert that, at worst my life is in danger - at best my evening. We've all heard the tales of firearms and pissing contests. I'd just as soon not get into one no matter what's involved.

I make no claims at expertise, and there is more wisdom on this board than I could ever pretend to absorb. This is just what I think to be one method of dealing with a tense situation.

I'm very interested in how the cops react to this as well. Perhaps it's time ro rethink things...

IC

Monkeybear
August 19, 2008, 12:51 AM
The way it was explained to me by my CHL instructor:

If a LEO ask for your ID give them your ID and CHL at the same time. He/she is running your ID to make sure that don't have warrants. By giving said LEO your CHL you are showing him/her that you do not have a history of bad judgement, violent behavior and/or going crazy. You are also showing the LEO that you are responsible, pay your taxes and he/she no longer has to wonder if you have a gun hidden in the car, always a valid fear for LEO on routine traffic stops as another poster mentioned.

If a LEO dose not ask for your ID do not volunteer that you are concealed. They are not that interested in you and you shouldn't draw further attention to yourself if you can help it.

As to why its safer....well cops hate surprises and they especially hate being surprised by guns. I don't want to have to deal with an agitated, surprised edgy armed man/woman if I don't have too. Anything I can do to make them more comfortable is in my best interest.


I have never been pulled over by the police and have never been ticketed, I'm only 25 though. I did however have an incident where a man backed out of a parking space into my car. I happened to be there when it happened and so I asked for his insurance papers and volunteered my own. He because very aggressive. He kept threatening me and was yelling, literally yelling, for almost half an hour that I "should leave" and that I "needed to get out of there". Anyway long story short the police came, who the parking lot guard had called. He asked for my DL and I gave him both my DL and CHL. He gave me my CHL right back and never a word was said about my handgun despite the other very aggressive driver.

bensdad
August 19, 2008, 01:21 AM
Give only that which is legally required. Offer nothing. Know your state's laws on the subject.

The cop pulled me over for a reason. Deal with that reason, and be done with it. I was speeding? Fine. Write the ticket. I need a headlight? Fine. Write the ticket.

I don't want to chat.
I don't consent to any violation of my rights.
I expect you (cop) to do your job.

jhco50
August 19, 2008, 02:23 AM
I had a situation where I was pulled over for......driving in the left lane of a highway. :eek: It was a horrid, dastardly crime! anyway the cop approached my door and I rolled the window down and he says " I gave you ample opportunity to pull into the right lane! Why were you driving in the left lane?" I looked at him and said. "I don't know?!?" He looked at me dumbfounded for a period and left. I had a .45 in the front seat, holstered of course. My wife looked at me and busted out laughing. All I heard from the family for 2 weeks was I don't know. :uhoh:

hoosier8
August 19, 2008, 08:25 AM
For those who have been surprised by being treated like a criminal when announcing they have a firearm. Don't be surprised to see this happen more often because this, as I understand it, is part of a more comprehensive training program the LEOs are getting. The idea is that, good guy or bad guy, the LEO has to keep things as safe as possible to keep from becoming a statistic. From what I understand, it has helped. In my state, they will tell you it is for your own safety, but we all know it is also for theirs.

I don't announce because in my state, I don't have to. I am always polite and respectful anyway. I also don't volunteer anything to any police officer, only because if anything happened, the courts could tear you up using only one sentence out of context, even if you did nothing wrong.

Well, except for one time when the office asked me, "Had a couple of beers?" (it was obvious). I said, "Scotch". I wasn't carrying.

bensdad
August 19, 2008, 11:47 AM
I don't buy that crap about it being for anyone's safety. A holstered gun is a 100 % safe gun. By taking it out, you (cop) are endangering me. This process is no different than gun control. It's not about the gun (safety) it's about control.

If I have a gun, and I have any inclination whatsoever to use it on a cop who just pulled me over, why the hell am I gonna hand it over? If I'm a normal dude who just drove too fast or needs a new headlight, why should we (cop and me) be exposed to the danger of a loaded gun in the hands of someone who has no practice/familiarity with that model? Cops disarming people as part of a traffic stop is a joke. Zero to do with safety. Everything to do with power trip.

Old Dog
August 19, 2008, 01:25 PM
Gee, and I thought this thread was about the relative merits of the "inform-don't inform" question, but now some have decided it's about cops disarming lawfully-carrying citizens during traffic stops?

Just where does this happen? How often? How many of you have personally experienced this? Or is getting disarmed during a routine traffic stop just like a bigfoot sighting?

Cops disarming people as part of a traffic stop is a joke.No, it's actually deadly serious.

At least up here, if Joe Trooper, Jane Deputy or John Townie is compelled to disarm a driver, they must have a pretty darn good reason and be able to articulate said reason in the subsequent report. No duty for CPL holders to inform, but the cop will generally ask the question at night, and that's about it.

Zero to do with safety. Everything to do with power trip. Ah, another voice of reason. And you know this to be, how?

Much freakin' ado about nothing, as usual.

Zundfolge
August 19, 2008, 01:41 PM
Zero to do with safety. Everything to do with power trip.
Ah, another voice of reason. And you know this to be, how?

Because one of the basic rules of gun safety is "Don't touch it unless you MUST!".

A gun left in its holster is the absolute safest it can be, so an officer handling someone else's gun is not as safe. Period.

Since nobody is actually made safer by an officer disarming a law abiding citizen there must be another reason for the practice.

Old Dog
August 19, 2008, 01:51 PM
Zundfolge, apparently you missed the context in which I made my statement. No worries, it happens.

My point was that, under normal circumstances, it is not common practice to disarm legally-carrying drivers during routine traffic stops. I challenge any of you easily-offended folks to document jurisdictions where it is common practice, and spelled out in an agency's policies. Oh, and that would be any jurisdiction where every traffic stop involving a CPL/CHL/CCW holder results in the officer, by department policy, having to disarm the lawfully-packing citizen subsequent to being provided a look at the citizen's license to carry.

Second, IF an officer deems it necessary to do so, there must be a compelling reason, and it is nothing to do with a power-tripping LEO.

Sheesh. Again, our OP (who seems to love starting LEO vs. citizen threads) spoke only on the question of informing the officers.

Stevie-Ray
August 19, 2008, 01:54 PM
As far as being let go because you have a CPL, CHP, install state acronym here, I have heard of it once. At least that what the person thought. A friend of mine was stopped and immediately surrendered his DL, reg, POI, and CPL, per Michigan law. When the cop came back he asked where the firearm was and was told. He then asked WHAT it was and then proceeded to talk guns with my friend for several minutes. He wasn't even sure what he was stopped for, though he assumed it was for speeding, because the cop told him to "slow it down a bit" and "have a nice day." This was definitely one of his more pleasant brushes with the law, and he was pleased with the cop's knowledge of firearms. Which brings up another point:I have no reason to believe the cop knows what he's doing.Do cops have any formal training from the job that familiarizes them with the various operations of today's autos, or is it mostly OTJT so to speak?

Jeff White
August 19, 2008, 02:01 PM
Because one of the basic rules of gun safety is "Don't touch it unless you MUST!".

Funny, that's not listed in my copy of the four universal rules. So guns are only for your viewing pleasure? I bet you never get yours out of the safe, after all, it's dangerous if you touch it....You just admire yours from a distance..right? :rolleyes:

A gun left in its holster is the absolute safest it can be, so an officer handling someone else's gun is not as safe. Period.

Why is the subject even carrying that dangerous gun? He had to touch it to put it in his holster. I guess he managed to get it out of the safe and put it in it's holster without being bitten. Do you have to handle them like venomous snakes? :rolleyes:

Since nobody is actually made safer by an officer disarming a law abiding citizen there must be another reason for the practice.

If the stopped driver was a law abiding citizen, there wouldn't be a traffic stop. The fact is, he's already being detained while an investigation into a violation is done.

Secondly, the officer has no way of knowing that the person he's stopped is only a traffic offender. For all the officer knows, this "law abiding citizen", this "certified good guy", just lost it and killed his wife and is on his way to do himself in, or it could be that he just lost his job and that speeding ticket is going to be the straw that broke the camels back and he's ready to go off the deep end. Sorry you guys are just whining because you feelings are hurt. You have no argument and you know it.

Every one of you would do the same if the situation was reversed and your gut feeling was that you should disarm this "law abiding citizen".

Jeff

moooose102
August 19, 2008, 02:24 PM
well, in michigan, it is required, and the cop knows when he runs my plates!:fire: so it is much better as if i do not inform him/her, i could be spending a while in metal bracelets. not my idea of a good time. i have told a couple of officers, and they didnt even blink an eye, they just said thanks for informing them, and we got on with out business. anyway, i am sure it has to do with the suprise:what: that comes about if the officer does accidently see your weapon without him knowing. at that point, he would be FORCED to assume that you are a bad guy, and are carrying illeagaly. also he would probably (if he values his life) have to assume that you are going to do him serious bodily harm with the gun. in that split second, he will have to draw his weapon, and demand you exit the car, and disarm you :cuss: one way or the other. best case scenario is you will end up in those metal bracelets for a while, worse case is he might slip in all the comotion and shoot you. imo, it would just be safer to tell him up front, and avoid all the hassle. if you tell him, and show your permit, it should (theroreticly) put him at ease, at least somewhat. by you showing him your permit, he knows that you have undergone a criminal background check, and you are not one.:banghead: that is why, imo, it is safer to tell an officer that you are carrying, and have a permit.

Treo
August 19, 2008, 02:27 PM
Sheesh. Again, our OP (who seems to love starting LEO vs. citizen threadS)

Actually I've started 4 threads along this line in 10 months and I haven't started one( except this one) since February 15th

Czar
August 19, 2008, 02:40 PM
As long as the actions you take are not in ignorance to the laws or your rights, what you choose as right for you given the situation is up to you. For me personally, how I would respond to a situation in one jurisdiction is different than how I would respond in another. I know there's a lot of discussion about pro's and con's/safety issues/etc and my answer (be it right or wrong) is the old accurate copout: It depends on the situation.

While you may have the right not to inform, sometimes it is in your best interest beyond the situation of an officer interaction while armed. As with most things, there are no absolutes.

If you have no duty to inform and you choose to do so anyway, you know the possible reactions of the officer – we discuss these at length from our varied experiences. As long as people are not making decisions in ignorance, it comes down to a "whatever floats your boat". However, once you choose to inform, you can't take it back during that encounter. I don’t think there is a safety issue to informing or not, or at least that’s not what I worry about when I consider LEO interactions. `

Case in point:
This morning I was stopped in a speed trap doing 57 in a 45. I don't know how fast I was going since I was in a pack of 8-10 cars and I was humming along with the flow of traffic -My bad. Now, unfortunately, I work at one of those places where I have signed as a condition of employment an agreement allowing random inspections of my car and we have a no weapons policy. When I was stopped, I was one of 3 cars on the side of the road who got pulled over. The motorcycle cop (local sheriff’s office) came up to my (right) window and asked for license/registration/proof of insurance (which was unfortunately expired... stupid 6 month cards). I was not carrying my sidearm, but I chose to hand over my CCW license issued by the same sheriff’s dept with my other info. He looked at it, and promptly handed it back to me. He goes and runs my info and comes back with a summons to appear for failure to present proof of insurance (which I can't blame him - but will be dismissed as my current card is at home) but nothing other than a polite "please slow down" for the 57 in a 45.

Boiling it down, I have to believe the only reason I got out of a 57 in a 45 speeding ticket in a speed trap run by at least the 5 units I saw, was because I chose to inform the officer. I never told him I had a firearm, just handed him the card. Will I always inform? Probably not. Will I always inform in a substantially similar situation where I am not carrying and was speeding and got caught? Probably... In that case I had nothing to lose and everything to gain. My license paid for itself today!

bensdad
August 19, 2008, 04:48 PM
Old Dog said:
Gee, and I thought this thread was about the relative merits of the "inform-don't inform" question, but now some have decided it's about cops disarming lawfully-carrying citizens during traffic stops?

Yeah. That's the reason to not inform. It goes directly to the OP.

Czar said:
Boiling it down, I have to believe the only reason I got out of a 57 in a 45 speeding ticket in a speed trap run by at least the 5 units I saw, was because I chose to inform the officer. I never told him I had a firearm, just handed him the card. Will I always inform? Probably not. Will I always inform in a substantially similar situation where I am not carrying and was speeding and got caught? Probably... In that case I had nothing to lose and everything to gain. My license paid for itself today!

I know we all have different perspectives. I don't want favors from cops. This is because I don't want them to expect favors from me. Their job is to enforce the law. Write me the ticket - you caught me. I won't fetch a ball like a puppy so trooper can scratch me behind the ears.

Jeff White said:
Every one of you would do the same if the situation was reversed and your gut feeling was that you should disarm this "law abiding citizen".

Wow. You either didn't read or didn't understand Terry. It specifically rules out a "gut feeling" as an acceptable reason.

Jeff White said:
Sorry you guys are just whining because you feelings are hurt.

My feelings are just fine. Seems to me some cops (and ex cops) are the ones with hurt feelings. The idea of people protecting their civil rights just can't be fathomed by some.

CAPTAIN MIKE
August 19, 2008, 05:36 PM
My encounters with LEOs while armed have actually gone BETTER because I kept my hands on the steering wheel, informed the officer that I was a CCW permit holder and that my 'sidearm' (don't call it a g...g...g..GUN) is on my strong side. Keeping my hands where the officer can see them, and using the good manners my parents & aunts & uncles taught me (Yes Ma'am, Yes Sir) etc., I cooperate and put the officer at ease.

Makes common sense. Moreover, once they know you're a CCW permit holder (with a background check), they know you're an armed certified Good Guy and they have less to worry about with someone like you than they would with an armed Bad Guy.

Once my identity and permit status has been checked out, in every case (so far), I've been given a friendly verbal warning instead of a ticket, and sent on my way after a friendly conversation comparing my sidearm with the officer's and some discussion about IDPA matches, etc.

Bottom Line: be a Goodwill Ambassador for the 2nd Amendment and give more law enforcement officers more reasons and live example to increase their respect and appreciation of armed citizens.

hoosier8
August 19, 2008, 06:26 PM
My feelings are just fine. Seems to me some cops (and ex cops) are the ones with hurt feelings. The idea of people protecting their civil rights just can't be fathomed by some.

The idea of cuffing you and securing your weapon has nothing to do with feelings or civil rights and everything to do with safety. If you don't want the officer to mess with your weapon, keep it in the car, not visible, and don't give him/her permission to search your vehicle. That is a right which can be waived if the officer got a search warrant. On the other hand, for the officer's safety, and yours by the way, securing your weapon if you are carrying will insure the safety of all. This is some of the training that I have heard about and it is being given due to officers being killed during "routine traffic stops". The fact that officer deaths are down is partly contributed to new training and stronger requirements to practice at the range. Why do you think some officers, in your opinion, over-react? Could it be due to the deaths in the LEO community?

Usually, if the LEO cuffs you, you will be un-cuffed once the weapon is secure. This has not happened to me, but has happened to one of my acquaintances, twice. There are good and bad LEOs but I think everyone would agree that they have a potentially dangerous.

My advice is still not to inform the officer that you are armed, unless it is required by law or that it will become apparent. Never volunteer anything.

Jeff White
August 19, 2008, 07:17 PM
Wow. You either didn't read or didn't understand Terry. It specifically rules out a "gut feeling" as an acceptable reason.

I understand Terry just fine. You on the other hand obviously don't have a clue. When a traffic stop is made a violation has already occurred. The officer is not using his specialized experience to recognize a crime is about to be committed and making contact with a subject and patting him down for weapons.

In this case, the violation has already occurred and the subject has volunteered he has a weapon (either because he's statutorily required to, or because he did anyway). In that instance the officer has every right to disarm that person based on a gut feeling. It's no different then making contact with the man who ran the neighbor kids out of his yard with a baseball bat and is still holding the bat. Anyone with any sense is going to ask him to put the bat down before continuing.

My feelings are just fine. Seems to me some cops (and ex cops) are the ones with hurt feelings. The idea of people protecting their civil rights just can't be fathomed by some.

NOTHING IN THE CONSTITUTION SAYS THAT YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO BE ARMED WHILE THE POLICE ARE TAKING ENFORCEMENT ACTION AGAINST YOU!!!

That's right, you have no right to have a gun, sword, brass knuckles, laser cannon or any other weapon you can think of while you are being arrested. A traffic citation is an arrest.

So yes I think your feelings are hurt.

Jeff

SCKimberFan
August 19, 2008, 07:27 PM
When a traffic stop is made a violation has already occurred.

Jeff

I must repectfully disagree. My most recent encounter occurred while driving on I24 from Nashville to Chattanooga. I was in a rental car that had a plate mounted cock-eyed on the front. That was the reason I was given for pulling me over, he implied it was hanging - ready to fall off. No speeding, at limit or 1-2 mph over at best. I wasn't carrying at that time so that is not an issue, but there was no violation.

Quite simply it was a BS stop.

Old Guy
August 19, 2008, 08:00 PM
This is easy, my vehicle is a marked Security vehicle.

Stopped once in 20 plus years, robotic voice "License/Insurance and registration driver please"

Gave same

"You were doing 50 in a 35 do you wish to check my radar?"

"No"

"Have a nice day" and I did.

All plastic I.D.s in left rear pocket, in hand when the young Officer approached the open window, Jeep in park, now know not to let that speed creep up in Winter Park.

Jeff White
August 19, 2008, 08:08 PM
I must repectfully disagree. My most recent encounter occurred while driving on I24 from Nashville to Chattanooga. I was in a rental car that had a plate mounted cock-eyed on the front. That was the reason I was given for pulling me over, he implied it was hanging - ready to fall off. No speeding, at limit or 1-2 mph over at best. I wasn't carrying at that time so that is not an issue, but there was no violation.

Does the Tennessee Vehicle Code require license plates to be securely mounted? Does it state that there is a penalty for not securing them? If it does, a violation did in fact occur. That you were not given a citation is immaterial to the issue. If that law is on the books, you could have been.

The vehicle codes in most states are full of violations that are seldom enforced so people think they aren't really violations, but they are. If it's on the books it can be enforced. In this case it would have been up to the officer to prove it was hanging if he decided to cite you.

Jeff

SCKimberFan
August 19, 2008, 08:36 PM
Once again I disagree.

It was mounted cock-eyed, but it was secure. He pulled ahead of me in the left lane, looked back at the front of the vehicle, then proceeded to pull me over. It was NOT flapping in the wind. It was secure.

Jeff White
August 19, 2008, 08:45 PM
I didn't see it, so I'll take your word for it. The officer obviously felt differently.

Jeff

SCKimberFan
August 19, 2008, 08:51 PM
You're right - all you have is my side, but if there had been a violation, I would have received a citation, or at least a warning. I left with neither.

bensdad
August 19, 2008, 08:53 PM
NOTHING IN THE CONSTITUTION SAYS THAT YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO BE ARMED WHILE THE POLICE ARE TAKING ENFORCEMENT ACTION AGAINST YOU!!!

That's right, you have no right to have a gun, sword, brass knuckles, laser cannon or any other weapon you can think of while you are being arrested. A traffic citation is an arrest.

So yes I think your feelings are hurt.

I'm not the one screaming. Like I and others have said, know your state and local regs. Give no more than is required. That is all.

dalepres
August 19, 2008, 09:28 PM
A traffic citation is an arrest.

Can you back that up with the section of law? Two minutes, please.

Whoops. Time's up. It's not a true statement, therefore you cannot back it up.

In Douglas v. Buder, 412 U.S. 430, 431-432 (U.S. 1973), the United States Supreme Court wrote,
"The apparent premise upon which respondent proceeded in revoking petitioner's probation was that petitioner had failed promptly to report an 'arrest.' But the issuance of the traffic citation was not an 'arrest' under either Missouri or Arkansas law. By statute, Missouri defines an 'arrest' as 'an actual restraint of the person of the defendant, or . . . submission to the custody of the officer, under authority of a warrant or otherwise.' Mo. Rev. Stat. � 544.180 (1953). Similarly, Arkansas defines an 'arrest' as the 'placing of the person of the defendant in restraint, or . . . submitting to the custody of the person making the arrest.' [*432] Ark. Stat. Ann. � 43-412 (1947). The record before us discloses absolutely no evidence that petitioner was subjected to an 'actual restraint' or taken into 'custody' at the scene of the accident or elsewhere. Consequently, we conclude that the finding that petitioner had violated the conditions of his probation by failing to report "all arrests . . . without delay" was so totally devoid of evidentiary support as to be invalid under the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. Thompson v. Louisville, 362 U.S. 199 (1960); Garner v. Louisiana, 368 U.S. 157 (1961)."

Jeff White
August 19, 2008, 09:32 PM
It's an arrest in Illinois and many other states.

(725 ILCS 5/107‑5) (from Ch. 38, par. 107‑5)
Sec. 107‑5. Method of arrest.
(a) An arrest is made by an actual restraint of the person or by his submission to custody.
(b) An arrest may be made on any day and at any time of the day or night.
(c) An arrest may be made anywhere within the jurisdiction of this State.
(d) All necessary and reasonable force may be used to effect an entry into any building or property or part thereof to make an authorized arrest.
(Source: Laws 1963, p. 2836.)

Posting bond at the time of arrest (the citation) as is required in Illinois is submitting to custody. Here a traffic violator can post bond with the arresting officer using cash, an insurance company bond card or what's known as an I Bond which is a promise to appear in lieu of cash bond. Non residents who are residents of one to the 43 states Illinois has a traffic compact with may sign a promise to comply. An officer may issue a notice to appear.

(725 ILCS 5/107‑12) (from Ch. 38, par. 107‑12)
Sec. 107‑12. Notice to appear.
(a) Whenever a peace officer is authorized to arrest a person without a warrant he may instead issue to such person a notice to appear.
(b) The notice shall:
(1) Be in writing;
(2) State the name of the person and his address, if known;
(3) Set forth the nature of the offense;
(4) Be signed by the officer issuing the notice; and
(5) Request the person to appear before a court at a certain time and place.
(c) Upon failure of the person to appear a summons or warrant of arrest may issue.
(d) In any case in which a person is arrested for a Class C misdemeanor or a petty offense and remanded to the sheriff other than pursuant to a court order, the sheriff may issue such person a notice to appear.
(Source: P.A. 83‑693.)

It may not be an arrest in MO or AR but it surely is here. There is nothing in the law that says the traffic violator can't be hooked up, taken to jail and required to post bond there.

Jeff



Jeff

deaconkharma
August 19, 2008, 10:05 PM
Old Dog
Senior Member





OLD DOG
"My point was that, under normal circumstances, it is not common practice to disarm legally-carrying drivers during routine traffic stops." "I challenge any of you easily-offended folks to document jurisdictions where it is common practice, and spelled out in an agency's policies. Oh, and that would be any jurisdiction where every traffic stop involving a CPL/CHL/CCW holder results in the officer, by department policy, having to disarm the lawfully-packing citizen subsequent to being provided a look at the citizen's license to carry." As I said in my post:
According to my stop with the young SCHP patrolman, it is common practice according to his T.O.. I have never ever had this before in SC but have in VA a long time ago. Thus my shock at the request and his statement about policy. I would be glad to provide the name and you could check my facts.

"Second, IF an officer deems it necessary to do so, there must be a compelling reason, and it is nothing to do with a power-tripping LEO."

I am not sure whether to be offended here or not?? Are you implying I'm some sort of miscreant and deserved it? I am always polite and courteous to officers when I interact with them. I don't speed as I am driving a minivan and am in no hurry in my not so young days. There was no reason I assure you. I presented my DL and my CWP as required since I was "carrying". had everything ready when he walked up...

deaconkharma
August 19, 2008, 10:32 PM
I fully admit it. my feelings are hurt!
Now, by the same token, there seems to be some heatedness (is that a word?) on the side of those who protect LEO rights to disarm. That, I do not decry if they have, as OD put it, "compelling reason". I hardly think a seatbelt violation and 25$ fine either means I am a hardened criminal or the 25$ worth shooting him for. I mean really, a guy in a minivan with no seatbelt not speeding and two child seats in the back? Compelling reason?:banghead:

Ya know?
In this state, I go through just as much background checks as a LEO. IF they are deemed ok why not I? Sigh, I'll quit arguing and justifying my beliefs on this and just do like Hoosier8 says and just Don't Ask Don't Tell. Officers can FEEL better and I can too by keeping my firearm in my control and not in the control of somone else who I am not sure of either their character or training. IF they don't know about me and I go through the same background checks as them, how do I know about them? (just a application of the same logic)
Anyway, I am just a "personal liberty first" sort of guy. Not meaning to get anyone's ire up. Just logical debate. I'm sure that someone will decide to lock this up soon to save the trouble of arguing the finer points of personal liberty. On the nanny nanny boo boo (light hearted jab) side of things...There are safer jobs out there.:evil:

cassandrasdaddy
August 19, 2008, 10:41 PM
you know whats funny to me? folks don't realize how many folks get caught on something as dumb as an expired sticker. cops don't go looking for most folks on the run they wait for em to deliver themselves. and sure enough they do. example is a local gut son of a judge was driving his beemer with no inspection sticker not expired none speeding and smoking some pot with 250 k worth of bud in the back seat. oops. funnier is they were already looking for him since they got his mom along with his 3 year old son watering the plants at his grow house. boy was a harvard mba. smart feller

as it relates to this post the cops doesn't know what hes got most of em don't recognize the "certified good guy " hand shake they teach when you get your permit

cassandrasdaddy
August 19, 2008, 10:42 PM
"I go through the same background checks as them, "

can you support that?

Jeff White
August 19, 2008, 10:56 PM
Now, by the same token, there seems to be some heatedness (is that a word?) on the side of those who protect LEO rights to disarm.

Oh more then a little heatedness. I've watched this debate over the years change from "I've got a CCW permit and that makes me a certified good guy." to "It's unsafe for anyone but me to handle my gun."

No one on the other side of the debate is willing to acknowledge that anyone can be capable of flying off the handle when faced with something as minor as a traffic violation and that the officer has no guarantee that someone he never has seen before is in fact a "certified good guy".

I read many of these same members who are always on the other side of this issue talk about how careful they live their lives in the Strategies and Tactics forum, yet they insist that a police officer take a chance they never would take in the name of personal freedom, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, the right for them not to feel like a criminal or the right not to have anyone else touch their weapon.

If I were dictator, no state would have a concealed carry permit, and no state would forbid the carrying of any weapon. All the permit system does is inconvenience the law abiding citizen. The criminals carry anyway. If we didn't have permits, we wouldn't have any laws requiring people to tell the police they are armed and this wouldn't be an issue at all.

Jeff

Blkhwk41
August 19, 2008, 11:27 PM
As a retired, mostly traffic, officer here is my 2cents worth...

Never volunteer anything to police that is not required.
If stopped have what you need (license, registration, ins, whatever) ready BEFORE the officer gets out of his vehicle.
Have windows on officers' approaching side open.

Have your hands visible on wheel or dash.

Understand that people die from doing stupid, rash, ignorant things.....

From my experience less than half of 'cops' are gun people. Many qualify only when necessary, and keep their service weapon on a shelf in the closet when off duty.

Respect the officer, unless you are given good reason not to, and remember the officer has the power of law behind him. And it may take the courts a long, expensive time to iron out any 'on street' confrontations (also the police have the legal system behind them and You must pay time and legal fees) Until you win, Maybe.................

deaconkharma
August 20, 2008, 08:53 AM
Thats the very thing. I do that every time. grab my stuff and have it ready with window down and the stuff out the window so he can get it without actually coming up to parallel with me. he can stay behind me and cover me if need be. night time? same deal with interior light on.

On to the going off potential of me or my firearm as was mentioned by others:
To assume I'm going to go off after tactically disadvantaging myself (by identifying) is not realistic. To have a pocket firearm go off while being fumbled for by someone unfamiliar with position of or firearm class/type of firearm is much more likely.

I'm really about to make LEO (and for those that are good thanks for what you do) people angry but since it was mentioned, "flying off the handle", we could look at the statistics on who flies off the handle more, CCW holders I doubt would even come close. I haven't seen one case of an identified CCW/CWP holder going off on a cop but fair is fair how many news reports have we seen cops off the handle? My state highway patrol has had quite a year with officers charged and others quit or fired and the head replaced. Like I said I don't wanna make this about that but when it is brought up I think statistically I'd like to be able to defend my position without someone getting mad or blocking me or locking the thread down. Flying off the handle was mentioned and I humbly submit my case to look at both sides.

I've had this argument with my buddies, one who is Pelion (SC) PD, and one who is South Congaree PD, and one state constable, (my father) so let me qualify that I don't "hate cops". Police officers can be the best people in the world or the worst, just like anyone else. I just want folks to recognize that as my argument before going off on me.

That being said about the individuals involved, (and hopefully we can either agree to the common human fallacies of ALL or at least agree to disagree civilly without any hostility) a main concern actually that I didn't get to expound on was, since this hasn't been a common occurance with me getting disarmed is, what if higher ups have started mandating this of their obediant street cops as a means of harrassment and political use? Remember he was new and young and kept mentioning his TO said so. higher up the chain are politicians not police so where'd this come from I wonder?

Here's where we agree "If I were dictator, no state would have a concealed carry permit, and no state would forbid the carrying of any weapon. All the permit system does is inconvenience the law abiding citizen. The criminals carry anyway. If we didn't have permits, we wouldn't have any laws requiring people to tell the police they are armed and this wouldn't be an issue at all. "


CassDaddy a quick browse of SLED website:
SLED conducts an extensive background examination of all applicants prior to a CWP being issued. To obtain an application, you may write: SLED Regulatory Department, P.O. Box 21398, Columbia, S.C. 29221. Learn more at the Concealed Weapons Permit page.
excerpt from SC CWP law: (B) Upon submission of the items required by subsection (A) of this section, SLED must conduct or facilitate a local, state, and federal fingerprint review of the applicant. SLED must also conduct a background check of the applicant through notification to and input from the sheriff of the county where the applicant resides or if the applicant is a qualified nonresident, where the applicant owns real property in this State.

From time to time, job positions (sworn and non-sworn positions) become available at SLED and are routinely posted or advertised in an appropriate manner as required by South Carolina law and regulations. All applicants, regardless of position, must undergo a rigorous background examination. For an employment application, contact: SLED, c/o Human Resources Department, P.O. Box 21398, Columbia, S.C. 29221.
Visit the state jobs website

Ok to the state jobs website---
Job Title: Highway Patrol Trooper
Agency: Department of Public Safety
Opening Date: Mon. 06/02/08
Closing Date/Time: Continuous
State Salary Range: $24,881.00 - $46,033.00 annually

Agency Hiring Range: Min: $29,910.00 Max:$31,154.00
Job Type: FTE - Full-Time
Location: Statewide, South Carolina
Normal Work Schedule: Rotating Shifts

Highway Patrol Trooper Supplemental Questionnaire

*1. For criminal record checks, please list your social security number.

*2. For criminal record checks, please list your date of birth.

*3. Do you have a high school diploma or G.E.D.?
Yes
No


* Required Question

all of this looks like local state and federal background checks in both LEO and CWP.

Old Guy
August 20, 2008, 02:12 PM
The big point here is... How many times are any of us pulled over in a traffic stop?

In my case (already stated) once in twenty years.

I have taught vehicle stops.. This officer was not very friendly, he does not have to be, gave me a ticket, I know I was going over the limit.

End of incident, I never even thought of the 9mm on my right side, concealed under a shirt, my Wife did not look like a threat, I did not look like a threat.

I went for my traffic Court, very interesting, learned a few things I did not know.

The whole set up was a ticket issuing system, two Officers, two cars, parked in Funeral Home lot. This worked well with me, over a year ago, I still do 35MPH down the road in question, that wee Officer did his job, he probably has a short person syndrome! (about 5'3") that's why he gave me the ticket? or may be because I was speeding? This will be a mystery for ever, but I will still be careful going down that Ave.

Keep Safe.

ilbob
August 20, 2008, 02:23 PM
I can't change the way the world is on my own so I to live with things the way they actually are.

Cops are understandably hinky about traffic stops because there are cases every year where cops get killed in traffic stops. I suspect more are killed by vehicles than by guns in traffic stops, but I don't know that to be a fact.

Do what you can to limit his fear so you can come home safely.

cassandrasdaddy
August 20, 2008, 04:55 PM
il bob BINGO
old book zen and the arty of motorcycle maintenance has a section on getting pulled over humerous

deaconkarma if you believe that that you get the same background check they do before hiring a cop good luck. did they psych test you? check references?

SCKimberFan
August 20, 2008, 05:12 PM
cassandrasdaddy said:

you know whats funny to me? folks don't realize how many folks get caught on something as dumb as an expired sticker. cops don't go looking for most folks on the run they wait for em to deliver themselves. and sure enough they do. example is a local gut son of a judge was driving his beemer with no inspection sticker not expired none speeding and smoking some pot with 250 k worth of bud in the back seat. oops. funnier is they were already looking for him since they got his mom along with his 3 year old son watering the plants at his grow house. boy was a harvard mba. smart feller

Huh?

How about some proper punctuation, paragraphs and the like. It makes it much easier to comprehend what you are trying to get across.

mr.72
August 20, 2008, 05:33 PM
Actually in TX you must notify the police of your CHL status, and provide the CHL along with your DL when they request ID, only if you are carrying. You do not have to notify them you are carrying (although it's a reasonable assumption when you hand over your CHL).

deaconkharma
August 20, 2008, 08:44 PM
The psych test- none. polygraph only in some jurisdictions. references also a joke. how many of us say "hey dude i put you on my job app talk me up ok? " the background checks are identical.

dalepres
August 20, 2008, 09:02 PM
And never forget the thin blue line.

Drgong
August 20, 2008, 09:05 PM
in my state you have to inform, so its moot...

Stevie-Ray
August 21, 2008, 12:25 AM
If I were dictator, no state would have a concealed carry permit, and no state would forbid the carrying of any weapon. All the permit system does is inconvenience the law abiding citizen. The criminals carry anyway. If we didn't have permits, we wouldn't have any laws requiring people to tell the police they are armed and this wouldn't be an issue at all. Why don't you run for president? Already sounds better than our choices, now.:D

Duke Junior
August 21, 2008, 01:00 AM
in my state you have to inform, so its moot...

But not when we cross that border to GA,TN or VA.:D

TStorm
August 21, 2008, 05:55 AM
SCKimberfan: When did SC link to license? I was told they were talking about it, but that it was not linked when I took my course two years ago.

I know it is SC law to present permit when asked for identification when carrying, but what happens when you are not (I can't carry or leave in car @ work)? Linking the two sounds like the potential for even more problems when the LEO runs your license. The mere fact he finds this out through other means, even though you are not obligated to bring this up when not in possession of a firearm, could be used as cause to search.

"Your honor, he had a CWP and said nothing, so I thought he must be hiding something with regards to firearms."

deaconkharma
August 21, 2008, 08:18 AM
We don't have DL/CWP linked. I just asked my Pelion PD buddy to make sure. So when I carry in the glovebox, I'm safe from having to identify or being disarmed.

SCKimberFan
August 22, 2008, 06:17 PM
Tstorm: Although I don't recall posting that they were linked, I am inclined to believe they are. Your CWP is printed/made at the DMV office in Blythewood. They use the same photo as your DL. The address shown on the back of your CWP is the DMV office in Blythewood. My presumption is that they are tied together, although I have not officially researched it myself.

but what happens when you are not

If you are not carrying, why would you present your CWP?



deaconkarma: If you have a permit and your firearm is in the vehicle, why is it not on your side or wherever you carry it?

dalepres
August 22, 2008, 08:59 PM
deaconkarma: If you have a permit and your firearm is in the vehicle, why is it not on your side or wherever you carry it?

Concealed holsters can be very uncomfortable when sitting - especially in confined spaces like a vehicle.

SCKimberFan
August 22, 2008, 09:03 PM
dalepres: Get a better fitting holster. Mine is on my side all day long. And I drive a great deal.

shooter_john
August 22, 2008, 11:24 PM
I understand that most cops aren't gun people, but I happen to be... Showing me your Pistol Permit will probably go along way in you not getting a ticket from me (but I'd lean toward not disclosing if you don't have to for the "big picture"). Same goes for respectful attitude and honesty. Jerks and Aholes get tickets, courteous and honest people usually don't... I go into 90% of my "routine" stops planning on NOT writing a ticket, then I let the stop-ee talk me into it.
As far as the "why is it safer if I tell" question, cops usually are not big fans of surprises.

doncol
August 22, 2008, 11:48 PM
I guess that I am kinda spoiled being here in southern Utah where you are the odd ball if you don't have your ccw. Most of the cops here are pro 2A or at the very least indifferent. Both times that I have had to inform LE that I was armed my permit was given the most brief of glances before given back. The second time it was given back with almost a "Yea, so?" kind of look.

TStorm
August 23, 2008, 10:04 AM
I realize the same department is generating the card in SC, same photo, etc. The case, hypothetical or not, of linking the permit to license, or worse yet, a vehicle registration is very problematic to me.

I didn't say I would necessarily present a CWP to an officer when not carrying. I am concerned that if my permit status were to be divulged through a routine DL check, and the LEO did not already know, this could promp concern/suspicion/fear from Officer Friendly. Or as Shooter John pointed out..."Surprise." This would not be the time or place to have a theoretical discussion of firearms laws with a LEO.

What's the LEO opinion of this scenario?

dalepres
August 23, 2008, 10:44 AM
I am concerned that if my permit status were to be divulged through a routine DL check, and the LEO did not already know, this could promp concern/suspicion/fear from Officer Friendly

Why should a cop be concerned, afraid, or suspicious of law-abiding armed citizens?

I understand that most cops aren't gun people, but I happen to be...

I don't even think most cops on this board are gun people - or at least guns in the hands of non-cops people.

bogie
August 23, 2008, 11:10 AM
Tell y'all what...

I'd rather avoid a surprise situation.

And as for the cops on this board? Maybe some of them see some of the non-cops as being highly irresponsible, testosterone-thinking, walking (or driving) attitudes. For that matter, they probably see some cops the same way.

So you're driving stupid, you've got a "bad cop, no donut" bumper sticker on the back of your car, you make the cop tap on your window or try to play other games with him, when all he really wants to do is get off the road after giving you your stupid slip.

In case some of y'all haven't figured it out, people sometimes shoot at police. They don't know WHO might be in the car. It might be Bubba, on the run from robbin' his neighborhood likker store two states over, and he's vowed that he ain't gonna go back to no jail...

Jeff, where you work - maybe I'll look you up next time through (while I drive the speed limit) and buy you a tasty circular pastry...

Old School
August 23, 2008, 11:39 AM
TexasRifleman.
I hope that is photoshop! 110mph and you are taking pictures? :what:

Jeff F
August 23, 2008, 11:58 AM
I might be wrong with this but here goes. Here we are not required to inform. If its just a traffic stop for something minor its probably best to keep it to yourself. I've seen some leo's make a big deal out of any firearms in cars. It can make a short traffic stop into a long drawn out affair. Out here even having a large amount of cash on you can get you looked at real hard and it can even be confiscated, and this is a gambling town, lots of cash gets exchanged all the time.

teflonbilly0
August 23, 2008, 11:11 PM
here in AZ, their systems show that I have a CCW so the officers ask. Now that I know this(and experienced it, wow did it catch me off guard) I inform officers.

deaconkharma
August 25, 2008, 11:40 AM
deaconkarma: If you have a permit and your firearm is in the vehicle, why is it not on your side or wherever you carry it?

That was the deal and point I was making. Since I was carrying, (it was attached at the hip/pocket) I had to divulge. The real twist is, though if it is in the Glove box, I do not have to divulge and thus not get disarmed... So if po-po wants to know and then makes a habit of disarming once he knows, I'll just move the firearm to a spot where I don't have to tell thus not get disarmed. I am one of those people that like to keep my toys in my possession not a stranger with undefined skills or knowledge.

The other more tinfoil hat reason I don't wanna give my gun up is they can record the serial and call ncic on my firearm. ( I admit it's tinfoilish but stranger things have happend, like say in Cali with the ak register and subsequent ban) Here in SC you don't have to register interpersonal sales of firearms. Them running ncic on a gun not prior registered to me that I got second hand... one day that could be defacto registration.

wyocarp
August 31, 2008, 01:45 PM
I talked with a highway patrol this past week again while in my vehicle. I hadn't been stopped, in fact I stopped and talked with him about a truck that had ran me off the road.

But while at my passenger window, he made two observations. His first was, "You have more weapons in here than I have in my squad car. Is there a reason for that?" My answer, "Yeah, I like guns." Amazingly, that was the end of that topic.

His second observation was, "Is that a beer bottle?" My response as I picked the bottle out of a trash bag, "No, I don't drink, it's a root beer bottle."

Sometimes it's good to be in Wyoming.

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