[LINDY2008]

Please help me with the choices I have. I want an O/U for trapshooting. I have a budget of 500, and have looked at the RemSPR310 and the Condor Guns. Would love a Ruger Red Label...but cant afford it.

Im just starting out, and plan on shooting 200 shells a week +/-. I appreciate any hel you might be able to provide.

I also see from past threads the Pros/Cons for the Stoegers....please recap these for me, Dicks has the basic Condor O/U for 269.00 and the Condor Supreme for 350.00 Remington (import from russia) is 400.00. Both feel great, they are 28 inch 12 gauges. I like them and fit me great, but make alot of my firearm choices based on THR threads.

Lindy

[12Bravo20]

For about $600 you can get a Mossberg or Turkish made Gazelle O/U. I paid $575 OTD for my Gazelle and the fit/finish is better than the Remington/Bakail and Stoeger shotguns.

[ArmedBear]

Mossberg is prettier, but I know too many people who have had firing pins break. I wouldn't get one.

My pick would be the Stoeger. Decent gun, not super-refined, but they seem to go a long time without breaking.

Actually, it'd be neither. I'd look for a used SKB or something. Or an 870, which will shoot just as well, for less money. It'll last essentially forever, too.

Put some money away each month. Soon, you can get a good O/U, new or used. Don't spend $500 that you will just wish you had back, soon enough. Keep your eyes open, and for $750 maybe you can get a damn good used gun. Be patient.

[Pete409]

Lindy,

You need to put your trapshooting costs into perspective. If you shoot 200 shells per week, that's 8 boxes of shells. At $5 per box, that's $40 just for the ammo. Assuming targets cost about $4 per 25, that's another $32 for targets. This comes to $72 per week just for shells and targets and doesn't count any other incidental expenses such as transportation to the range.

At $72 per week, for a year that would be $3,744 and that doesn't count any other costs. Over a period of 5 years, you will have spent at least $18,500 just for shells and targets. Why try to cut corners by using a $500 shotgun which may not last more than a few months without breaking? Spend a little more and get a gun that will last you 20 years or longer and will probably be worth more at the end of 20 years than what you paid for it.

I assume you are shooting for the enjoyment of it, so why would you consider spending almost $4,000 per year on shells and targets but try to get by with only $500 on a cheap shotgun? Just wondering.

[Der Verge]

There are no good $500 O/U shotguns, unless you find a used one on the rack that slips by the salesman. Get a 870 or 500. At least you will not have to fix it......

[Jim Watson]

When I was active in trapshooting, I shot every gun on the market, and owned several. But I always went back to the gun I started with, a Remington 1100 TA, bought second hand.

Elmer Keith said "don't buy a cheap sidelock." I will take that further to say don't buy a cheap O/U. An 870 Trap will serve you very well.

[ArmedBear]

You need a TRAP GUN -- which is very, very, very task specific with regard to weight, balance, drop in comb, trigger, sights/rib, point of aim

Really? I sold my TRAP GUN and bought a field O/U. Scores are better since. Might get even better with a trap gun that actually works well for me, but "need" is just not true. I just don't care enough about trap, specifically, to buy a gun just for it -- and you don't need a gun that says "trap" on it to break targets.

Couple bucks for the "trap boy."

Most week-ends they'll be a "wager" shoot . . . toss a buck into the pot, and shoot "wobblies" or whatever.

Sanctioned event at the club might run $25 to $50 entry fee.

$5 for the club buffet if they have a sanctioned event.

Not where I shoot.

This kinda stuff is just plain unnecessary, if you don't want to do it.

[Hawk]

I'll echo the others, more or less. Given:

1. "Trap".
2. "Over / Under".
3. "$500.00".

I'll cast my lot with those that indicate that you may select any two. Trying to jam all three together will give one agita in varying degrees.

A "trap gun" is nice but needn't be an O/U. 870TBs can still be found under 500.00 and I found it as effective as anything else. American trap is usually singles and you won't be handicapped with a pump or a single for that matter. The 1100TA is a good option.

I believe one of the best values is the White Onyx. Excellent review here:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=385956

My club has a habit of turning on the "wobble" feature and that seems to equalize the field some between sporting clays, field and dedicated trap types but this might be my imagination. I tend to use the Beretta sporting most although I keep the 870TB handy. But I don't shoot enough to stay proficient with one much less pushing my luck by swapping platforms at random.

Some of the other expenses aren't really other expenses. Shells certainly are but kicking in for food gets you fed - you were going to have to eat anyway. Sanctioned shoots are optional. Dues vary wildly and there's generally plenty of public ranges. We don't have "trap boys" we have little boxes that one shouts into. I learned early on that a "Pull" miss "<obsenity>" sequence will get you two birds in rapid succession. At least a human won't double pull if you cuss when you miss. I had to learn not to cuss. Probably did me good in the long term.

At least you don't have dress up like a cowboy in period correct stuff, buy 4 firearms and a cart. Compared to what I see with those in CAS, trap is a bargain. Trap over/unders aren't, though.

[Milkmaster]

To answer the original question with my opinion, I would go with the Spartan. The quality has gotten much better since Remington started importing them. My son has over 5K rounds through his Spartan 12 ga at the trap range. No failures yet.

[Jim Watson]

CAS don't gamble, though.

Trapshooters have devised all manner of ways to bet on the game, see "options", "purses", "jackpots" and "Calcutta."

[Hawk]

CAS don't gamble, though.

Neither do they shoot their hat when they first clean a stage. 'Course their hats a bit pricier than my typical ball cap.

[Dave McCracken]

I did well with an 870 TB at trap, much better than with the $500 O/U that preceded it. A friend has the TB now, and it continues to grind targets into dust.

In your shoes, I'd get a long barreled 870 and Learn to shoot it. Once that happens, look around for an O/U from the following makers.

Ruger.

Miroku.

SKB.

Winchester (101s).

Browning.

Beretta.

Many of these turn up around the $1000 mark and will outlast all of us.

And then you'll have a great O/U and also a great pumpgun....

[RNB65]

Get a bigger budget or get an 870 pump. You're not going to find a cheap O/U that can stand up to heavy clay shooting. Cheap O/U's are made for folks who hunt occasionally and only shoot a few boxes of shells a year.

[ArmedBear]

Here's the thing...

An O/U offers nothing that a pump gun doesn't. American Trap is a single-shot game. You can get a great pump gun for $500 or less (e.g. an old Model 12 Trap, used Wingmaster trap gun, new BPS, etc.). Or you can get a POS O/U that's not set up for trap. The pump gun is longer and has a single barrel, i.e. it's set up like a dedicated trap gun.

Another option, BTW, would be the H&R Topper Trap gun, a new version of the venerable single shot with a nice recoil pad, a walnut stock set up for American Trap, dual-bead vent rib, for a hair over 300 bucks, brand new.

http://www.hr1871.com/Images/photo_topper_trap_gun.jpg

Seriously, $500 spent on a new O/U is $500 you'll wish you had back in your pocket to buy a different gun. SKB's are nothing short of excellent, for example, and can be found on clearance for $1000 new (after Christmas, perhaps). I've got a 30-year-old SKB that's still going strong.

Shooting is more important that equipment, assuming you have basic equipment that works.

[throdgrain]

Use the gun you got. I shoot plenty of trap with my Benell M2 - and my Mossberg 500 too! - and I do ok.

As far as o/u go, couldnt you find an old Winchester 101, or maybe some kind of Miroku? Much better thn buying some cheap thing made in Turkey.

[PJR]

$500 spent on a new O/U is $500 you'll wish you had back in your pocket to buy a different gun.
X2. That money is better spent on an 870 TB or a used Remington 1100.

[younganddumb]

I never knew I needed a dedicated trap gun? Half the people i shoot with don't have a dedicated trap gun and every one is braking 20+ better I shoot a moss. and have no troble with it at all and its setup for waterfaul

[Steve C]

Half the people i shoot with don't have a dedicated trap gun and every one is braking 20+ better

If you are a hunter and incidentally shoot some trap then a hunting shotgun is ok as you are just "playing" at shooting trap. Kind of like playing badminton using a tennis racket or golfing in tennis shoes because that's what you have. If you want to be a trap shooter then get a trap gun, if you want to dabble in it then get any type gun and go play.

To be competitive you'll have to be breaking more 25's in a set than 24's.

[NCsmitty]

It would be nice if we all could just go out and by a $2,500 trap gun, but the reality is that often we are limited to a budget. I vote for the Stoeger Condor, a reliable and well made O/U. Most of the naysayers base their opinions on hearsay rumors and have not actually tried some of these budget firearms because they are above giving them an honest shot. I tried it and was very satisfied and found that it exceeded my expectations.

NCsmitty

[ArmedBear]

If you want to shoot after-work leagues, you don't need to be shooting nothing but 25's. Depends on what "competitive" means to you.

Kind of like playing badminton using a tennis racket

An inaccurate analogy.

The thing about "real" trap guns is that they can improve your trap score a tad by making it easier to shoot rising birds, since they shoot high. And they can screw up your ability to shoot a shotgun instinctively, because when you have done nothing but shoot trap with a 70-30 gun, then you grab a field or skeet gun, you'll shoot under your targets, consistently.

They'll even screw up someone who shoots International Trap; they're made to shoot nothing but American Trap, with birds rising at a certain rate and to a certain height. They generally don't even work well for Wobble.

Otherwise, trap guns tend to be long, with natural smooth swing. This is a real advantage across the board, but in many cases it can be replicated with a cheap pump gun. A 30" 870 is similar in length and can be similar in balance to a 34" BT-99.

A really great trap gun (i.e. and old Ithaca 5E) can make hitting trap targets feel magically natural; they don't shoot very high, but they swing like a dream. I never found, say, a BT-99, to be any more naturally adapted to shooting trap than an 870 Express. I sold my BT for that reason.

Bottom line?

Until you hit a certain level of skill and competition, the word "Trap" on the gun's box isn't all that important. What IS important is that the gun works for you, whatever it is.

(Actually, if I ever buy a Citori, "Trap" does matter. The only configuration I can stand is one with long, heavy barrels to balance out the rest of the gun, and the only thing I could see doing with it is American Trap.)

And remember: some serious American trapshooters don't ever use a shotgun for anything else -- not birds, not skeet, not 5-stand or SC. They're just into competing at American Trap. Some can't do much else very well; once you get used to a 9 lb. gun that shoots 70-30, and targets that are all the same height, shooting high-gun, some other shotgun disciplines run squarely up against your practice and muscle memory. All of that's fine, if you only want to shoot American Trap. Otherwise, though, consider where you want your energy and money to go.

[PJR]

It would be nice if we all could just go out and by a $2,500 trap gun, but the reality is that often we are limited to a budget. I vote for the Stoeger Condor, a reliable and well made O/U. Most of the naysayers base their opinions on hearsay rumors and have not actually tried some of these budget firearms because they are above giving them an honest shot. I tried it and was very satisfied and found that it exceeded my expectations.
No one said he needed a $2,500 trap gun but that paying $500 for an o/u to shoot trap might not be the best way to spend his money. I shot Stoegers, the o/u, sxs and their Turkish-made semi auto. I won't own one nor recommend them.

Spend enough years hanging out at the range and you will see the fresh-faced youngster with the cheap gun. He's got talent to burn and a gun that is holding him back because the triggers are crappy, the gun handles like a stump and the barrels don't shoot into the same area code. This young man is better off with an 870 or an 1100 because they are for $500 better guns to own than a crap o/u.

Some years ago the big item in my part of the world was a gun called the Marocchi Frigon. It was a combo trap set that sold for around $500. Lots of guys bought them and bragged about the money they saved. The rest of us just lived with the shame of our more expensive Berettas and Brownings. Those Berettas and Brownings are still running today, either in the hands of the original owner or sold to a new shooter. I haven't seen a Frigon at the range in years.

[ArmedBear]

One more thing...

IMHO the difference between 23 and 25 has a lot to do with keeping your mind from wandering, which can be difficult when shooting American Trap.

If you can hit 23, you can use the gun just fine. It's not the gun that's missing the other 2.

[toivo]

I'm in my third season of shooting trap (about 4 rounds a week, 6 months of the year), and I've been using a Remington 1100 Sporting 12 the whole time. I have yet to shoot a straight 25--I usually shoot around 20, but I've been creeping up a bit, with a few 23's recently. I have never shot a dedicated trap gun in my life, so I'm not sure whether or not it would give me an edge. I have to say that I've never felt that there was a big disadvantage in having to "cover" the bird. It's how I know when to pull the trigger, actually: I swing through the bird and pull the trigger just as the barrel blocks it out.

I do know that the people who are using cheaper O/U guns have more mechanical problems (FTF's, broken extractors and firing pins, etc.) than the pump and semi-auto guys or the Browning/Beretta brigade. That's just anecdotal evidence, but it's what I've seen.

[Whitman31]

I shoot 200 rounds a month with my Beretta, never had a failure. Unless your planning on competing at the highest levels, get a reliable gun that fits you. Trap is easy and involves much more mental focus that state of the art equipment. Get a gun that's good for all around use, you'll get bored with trap and want to shoot sporties or wobble sooner or later, get something that can do it all...

[romeo212000]

My yildiz has been a great skeet gun and at around $400.Check it out.

[86thecat]

The single most important thing in shotgunning (for us mere mortals) is gun fit. A two thousand buck gun that doesn't fit will not produce the hits that a two hundred buck gun that fits will. Do your research on mounting the gun and how the sight picture should line up, then go shoulder reliable guns in your price range until you find the one that fits. Shoulder it, cheek first, with your eyes closed, when you open your eyes the "sights" should be aligned, if not try another. Professional help is a major asset. Make sure it can be exchanged if it doesn't pattern to point of aim. Choke tubes are nice. Doesn't matter if it's a pump, auto, double, just that it fits, shoots, is reliable and will be safe.

Have fun.

[Jeff F]

Anything less than a "dedicated trap" gun is not going to work for trap shooting
Sorry guys, but that is the biggest bunch of BS I have herd in a while. Most of my friends, myself included use field guns for most all of our clay shooting. Mostly 30 inch full choked for trap league but sometimes for practice I've been known to use a 20 inch RS barrel just because. I've seen an old guy with an old HR single shot goose gun take home the money a couple of times and he was shooting against some very expensive dedicated trap guns. If a guy learns to shoot then he can shoot with anything and be competitive. If you can't shoot then that 2 or 3 thousand dollar shotgun is not going to make you a better shot.

I have shot a few of those high dollar trap guns and they felt good and shot very well but I myself just don't see the need for one. I do shoot on a couple of leagues but its just a fun thing, to get out with the guys a couple nights during the week or on a weekend.

[romeo212000]

I have to agree with you Jeff. That is a a load of bull if I ever heard it.

[ants]

A guy advertised a shotgun in the newspaper. I called the number and paid him his asking price for a good used 12ga pump shotgun. It was a Rem 870 so I was happy. At home I discovered that it is a TC model - the bottom of the line trap model. I took it trap shooting and sporting clays. I'm no winner, but for years I held my own with that pump gun, even though an over/under has a real advantage because it has no action and is much better balanced for a given barrel length. But I could shoot the 870 very well, and even though I was not a club member, the guys kept calling me to shoot with them. And I always kept up.

One day at the pawn shop I saw it. A 25 year old Remington 3200. A real, honest trap gun by an excellent manufacturer. Well built, extraordinary balance, 32" barrels, gold and ivory beads, the right chokes, and everything. Perhaps tens of thousands of rounds already through it, but a solid and mechanically perfect shotgun. I talked them down to $700. Wow!

But I couldn't hit a clay bird with it. On the first shoot, my best round was in the teens. After 3 months I still couldn't shoot it. It just didn't fit me. I just wasn't going to make it break the birds. The guys still called me to shoot with them at the club, but they wished I would lose the 3200.

So I picked up the old 870 TC and I'm back in the game.

I just thought you guys might want to hear something like that. An over under has a much better balance. But if it doesn't fit, you won't be able to shoot it. And you don't have to spend a fortune to learn to shoot trap.

[Dave McCracken]

Every trap range has a story about some guy who saved for years to get a high end trap gun and found he couldn't shoot it as well as his old 1100/870/BT99/12 etc.

Some local legends use 1100s and 870s and are hard to beat with any shotgun. Some others use the high end shotguns and are also hard to beat.

The common threads are fit, usage and the mental game. Once the shotgun fits and places a fairly tight pattern a little high out there, the name on it becomes superflous.

[Ceemack]

The "standard" for trap is the Browning Citori. The trap models start at about $2,500, in round numbers. You can get a Browning BT-99, single barrel trap gun for about half that . . . used they run $1,000.

Anything less than a "dedicated trap" gun is not going to work for trap shooting.
Horsefeathers.

I make it to the trap range a few times a year. Even with just a lowly 870 Express, which doesn't remotely fit me, I usually break in the low 20s.

So far, I haven't missed a bird that was the gun's fault. My best round ever was a 23, and the two that I missed in that round were going straight away--the easiest shots to make. My concentration just lapsed on both birds, and I missed my first 25 straight.

It's the Indian, not the arrow.