[Skunkabilly]

Hold on for a sec while I put on my 30% carbon fiber / 70% Nomex blend jumpsuit.

Does anyone else feel that in general, the quality of production American firearms leave a lot to be desired? Speaking to a few other THR members off the record, they are disappointed with US-made firearms as well. I've had two first-hand reports over the last several months that their M1A would have their op-rod spontaneously come off the gun. 1911s, it seems, is the only thing besides computer software that people buy expecting the thing not to work.

I think it's partly because that American consumers are wanting to get a deal and the market lets companies get away with cutting corners and producing and inferior product. Then for the scary guns, we have protectionist policies in the form of gun control that stifle competition from foreign manufacturers. As for tac gear, banjos, knives and custom guns, I'll still buy American, but I'm almost leery these days of any production guns that say 'Made with pride in the USA'.

Your thoughts?

[WonderNine]

Skunk, I think you know about my experiences of two "Made in Maryland" Beretta 92's vs. two "Italian" 92's.

And you know what a P.O.S. the American Berettas are compared to their Euro counterparts.

I admit only 2vs.2 and it could be a fluke but....

That's just my personal experience.

[Justin]

Agreed. I think that the litigious atmosphere in the US has a lot of gun companies scared, and therefore building the cost of defending against lawsuits into the cost of their product. (Same reason ladders cost much more than just the materials and processes used to make them.)

Foreign companies don't have to worry about this quite so much, and can therefore make a product for less money. Also, it may be cheaper to manufacture something in some other countries because of more relaxed environmental regulation, taxation, and a general lack of things like OSHA.

Since some of these foreign companies don't have to spend as much capital on crossing t's and dotting i's they are free to reinvest it in better materials and manufacturing processes, or to offer a product of decent quality at a lower price.

Of course, I'm sure that the above could be considered a fairly gross generalization, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of it were true.

[WonderNine]

Justin, I believe that some of it is true and it may be a generalization, but it's a truthful one.

[C.R.Sam]

Been that way for a while.

Sam

[Jim March]

That's why the revolver checkout thread on the wheelgun forum is one of the most popular threads on this site. It's for NEW guns as well as used.

:scrutiny:

[denfoote]

I only buy Ruger save one notable exception: a Smith & Wesson made PPK/S. The Rugers I have complete faith in. They have failed me not over the years. I still have my P95 that was purchased in 1997. It has had many thousands of rounds and has only choked on Wolf; and that was after it had digested at least 500 rounds; and the lacquer finally gucked up the chamber.

My various versions of the old MK-I have performed similarly.

The Smith, on the other hand is OK, except for the fact that the old venerable gun maker re engineered the gun to only accept THEIR version of the magazine!! Mec-Gar and other aftermarket magazines will not function in it!! :cuss: :mad:

It is indeed sad that Smith would seek to modify the traditional Walther staple for pure greed. Perhaps they thought that they would not sell enough copies to make an adequate profit The PPK is a safe queen!! :rolleyes:

[444]

I don't know, because I rarely ever buy foreign made guns. Not for any particular reason, it just seems that the things I want are American made. And, I have had very little trouble with any of them. Many of the problems I read about on this board are things that I am unable to duplicate with my own guns. Maybe I don't have the finely honed tastes as some others, but I am getting along fine with what I got. I shoot three or more times a week, so my stuff gets a good workout. I have one AR15 in particular that I purchased within the last year that I have put over 6000 rounds through. I shoot it pretty seriously at least a couple days a week and it has been through two carbine courses. Never had a lick of trouble and it is American made and American designed.
I do own a few euro-guns. Never had many problems with them either.
Don't get me wrong, I have had problems now and again. Most of it is from simple wear and tear; parts replacement.
Over the years I have owned several hundred guns and have had problems with only a couple, none were new when the problem occured.

[telewinz]

A half naked women holding a firearm, a paid performer using a certain brand of firearm, thats how the American public determines whats "cool" and what has status in our culture. How the firearm is "packaged" and marketed has much more influence on the American consumer than quality. In Europe where the advertising laws are much tougher, quality and craftsmanship take more of the central stage.

[twoblink]

I thought Skunk defined what is cool and tactical?

I have to admit, the fit and finish on my M1A is horrible. When I took a picture and then emailed it to them, they said send it in.. and we'll see. They didn't offer to pay for shipping either direction, and so I didn't send it.. But thinking about it. Also, the el-cheapo hardguard on it was horrible, and not what it should be for a $1500 rifle.

Then, I take a look at my Steyr M40. The feedramp is shinier than my mirror!! I think when it's all said and done, Made in America is not beating Made in Taiwan anymore, and that's just a sad statement...

[BryanP]

I haven't noticed this problem. Of course, my firearms aren't the most expensive ones in the world. My Marlin 1894C (American Made) has served me well. My Ruger 22/45 has functioned flawlessly. OTOH, all 3 of my revolvers are Taurus brand (made in Brazil) and work just fine and my .45 is a P220 (made in W. Germany). So 2 American made firearms and 4 foreign made, but the 2 Americans have functioned just as nicely as the non-American.

Of course, if the next one sucks it's my own fault since I'm building an AR. But other than that I'm considering an SKS and a Mosin Nagant rifle, so I guess I'm one of those foreign-gun buying types too.

[goon]

You are correct.
It has gotten to the point that I am leery of any US made gun.

[vmi93]

The fit and finish are available in American made guns, it just seems to cost a lot more. My $900 Kimber worked beautifully out of the box. So did my $400 Glock.

I've bought eight US made firearms in the last 4 years and only had a problem with one (a Kel-Tec carbine). My Bushmaster and Ruger rifles, Remington shotgun, S&W revolver and Ruger pistol all worked fine and continue to do so.

The Kimber is the only one that is realy flawless in fit and finish.

I think that the US manufacturers stress the cheap over the perfect. The manufacturerers would rather lobby Congress for protection from imports than try to compete on the same level. I think that litigiousness plays a role in limiting the products that some of the companies offer. There is no other reason why one of the larger US companies could not offer a handgun to match the quality of the SIG, Glock or H&K.

[Oracle]

The metallurgy is better now than it used to be, but the fit and finish definitely is not, and many times, the function isn't either. I think American gun manufacturers have simply turned QC over to their customers, with the idea of "they'll just send it back to us if they have any problems". That is a very poor way of doing business, but it seems to be the standard now. The focus is on getting the most product out the door, instead of producing a good product. Quantity over quality.

[Iain]

It's getting more and more difficult to run a cost-effective manufacturing industry out of many countries now partly for the reasons Justin gave. Why this is an issue where American-made and European-made guns is the issue I have no idea.

I would expect that many of your guns will be made in the Far East in the future, except in cases like H&K's plant that is being talked about, and you can probably expect to pay through the nose for them. As an example there is a company based in the Far East that makes over 90% of all the guitars made in the world today, mostly other brands 'out-sourcing'. They make very good guitars where the design brief allows. American made guitars of equivalent quality cost twice as much, European and American handmade guitars are pretty damn expensive.

To a certain extent you do get what you pay for, but some of what you pay for when it comes to American/Western European made products is the extra overheads.

Does this really bother us?

[Zedicus]

In Europe where the advertising laws are much tougher, quality and craftsmanship take more of the central stage.
Not in the UK....and they "claim" to be part of europe...

[feedthehogs]

As a business man for over 20 years, the quality of products that I use continues to decline.

More warrantee claims and cheaper finishes.

CNC machines are touted to make better products and cheaper. But someone has to setup and control those machines.

Litigation and labor costs have driven American products to the brink of extinction.

The manufacturers have to cut quality to charge a price that consumers will be able to afford or go out of business.

At one time unions were the workers friend, but now they and trial lawyers are the devil's minions.

More and more jobs and maufacturing will be lost to overseas corps.

America will become a nation of consumers only.

Example, Toyota has become the #1 car maker in sales in the good old USA.
Average labor costs at Toyota, $12.00/hr.
Average US auto worker, $42.00/hr.

US auto companies are on the brink of bankruptcy.

No doom and gloom, just the facts.

Out of the last ten guns I've bought, 8 needed work to make them function properly.
All cost over $500.00.
A fact I've just come to expect.

[TechBrute]

My Experiences:

S&W: 15 Revolvers in the last few years, all good.
Kimber: 2 1911's and 1 .22 rifle, stellar!
Ruger: Have one MkII from 1982. Has over 300K rounds through it.
Colt: 2 Revolvers, good. 1 1911, bad bad bad bad bad.
Remington: 4 Model 700's, 3 good, 1 very bad!
Winchester: Model 70 and Model 1894, good.
Mossberg: My 590A1 is perfect, my 500 starting having light primer strikes after 17 or 1800 rounds. It's fixed now.

I'm not sure if you count Glocks as American, but I have <ahem> several... and they've all been perfect.

To tell you the truth, I don't have many of them foreign jobs. I have a Baikal (russian) OU shotgun that has worked great, I just don't like the ergonomics. I also have a Benelli shotgun, but it's not broken in yet. I'm not a big fan of the Berettas, HKs, or Sigs. They make fine weaponry, but I don't feel the need to pay the pricetag for the gizmos and switches on the silly things. I like my 1911s and Glocks. Simple.

Haven't gotten around to getting an M1A yet. I'm in the market for an FAL or G3 instead. I'll eventually get around to getting one, but I might have one built, instead, as buying one from SA seems to have no advantages.

[RTFM]

Skunk, case in point follows...

SW1911 Safety Recall Information
... As part of this ongoing evaluation process, we have received reports, in an extremely small number of cases, that the firing pin safety plunger of the SW1911 pistol can become disabled, creating a situation where the slide may jam and render the firearm inoperable. This only pertains to certain Smith & Wesson Model SW1911 pistols bearing serial numbers JRD0000 to JRD4750.


Link http://www.smith-wesson.com/CatalogManual/sw1911recall.htm

[jsalcedo]

Ok here goes:

Winchester M94 .44mag (new) Mirror blue finish, beautiful wood, fit and finish accuracy is out of this world.

Mossberg 500 (new)
Made of inexpensive materials and looks to have a painted finish instead of blue(finish is consistant however they pull it off and it shoots like a dream and functions perfectly.


Remington 870 (handled a friends brand new gun) Nice wood, nice finish
no malfunctions, smooth action

Ruger P90 The flinstones version of a .45 auto. It's like an overbuilt highpoint. It's the gun that eats my reloading mistakes.
the P90 is like a billy goat... it feeds and functions with anything that says .45acp on it.

Oh yeah and its more accurate than some kimbers I've fired

H&R Handi rifle. Sweet shooting .45-70 no complaints

Smith and wesson 629: (1995) Perfect, utterly perfect.

Ruger MkII : If there were a pope of pistols this one would be canonized.


That said:

I went to look for a SAA in .45colt and the gunshop guy hands me a
new Colt with hard rubber grips and a case hardened Uberti with wood grips.

He has me check the lockup and everything on the "how to check out a revolver thread" Gunshop guy asks me which is better.

The Uberti won hands down. When I asked the price difference I was told the colt was priced $1639 and the Uberti was $349 and came with a .45acp cylinder as well as the .45 colt.

I could by every Uberti single action they had for the price of one cruddy new colt.

It is up to us, thoroughly inspect new guns at the gunshop and don't buy crappy specimens. Try it out immediately and take it back if it sucks.

Pretty soon the manufacturers will get the message.

[axeman_g]

I am having a hard time wrapping my brain around this thought ....

I personally see as many foreign weapons have issues as I do domestic. I think what some people look at "quality" they get confused with "hype" or reputation. I know Glocks are supposed to be indestructible ... but explain KBs. A springfield xd may need a new extractor, an inconvenience yes, but I aint walking away missing fingers when the extractor breaks.

When I bought my American SUV, my friends said I would hate the fact t would always be in the shop. Well, i have had to replace the cd player twice now, but thats about it. But one firends toyota needed a new engine after 20k miles due to a design flaw with the oil passages, and an Acuras transmission seared a pinion gear with 5k.

I am not a huge "BUY AMERICAN" only ... I just dont know if an educated consumer can be anymore. Especially a cheap one, as most of us here are.

When it comes to guns ... durability, ergonomics and features are the points I look for. But I have fallen for hype ....Let me look at my own collection over the years ...

Colt Combat Comander ... never a hiccup, bought used, 1000rds since purchase. American as can be. CCW

FN HiPower ... love it. Foreign, US ties ... never a problem

New Ithaca 37 16 quage ... like it alot. Looking for something more modern maybe ... some shell (Winchester) wont eject due to brass expansion.

Old Ithaca 37 16 quage ... love it. Never a problem and is 50 yo.

Beretta U22 .. have not shot it yet. HYPE gun ... got to have a toy

Marlin Glenfield .22 ... perfect little rifle. Never a problem ...

CZ85 ... nice, like the FN and commander better. Has jammed, nothing major broken. Will prob be sold.

Springfield XD .40 ... Nice gun, did not love it. Sold it and swore to stay away from hipower polymers.

Berreta 92 Border Patrol ... nice gun, did not like shooting grip... sold it. Never hiccuped. US made ???? Not sure ... most likely.

Taurus 92 ... POS. Goodbye ... could not get through 4 mags without a FTF.

Walther P22 ... nice little gun... no problems ... zero. Miss it. Should not have sold it ... but I did get the hipower with the money.

Ruger gp100 ... beyond tough. Will never trade or sell.

Springfield .45 loaded ... hated shooting it. Sold it ... Did not own long enought to find out quality.

SW 66 ... nice revolver ... like the GP 100 better. Never a problem.

HK USP C ... Nice, ok, grip was wrong for me. not very accurate .. was not only the shooter ....

Steyr M9 ... great gun. Fun, durable, light ... I sold it because I was concerned about support. It and P22 funded the HIPO.

There are others ..... but I think it is a tossup. If I was a new shooter all over again and had $600 to spend on a handun ... it would be a Ruger p series 9mm and $300 worth of ammo. Learn to shoot well, worry about being cool later. Quality and skill would make it cool.

I dont know ... this thread bothers me .. no offense skunk, but we all know where your passion lies.

I just dont see a difference between foreign and domestic guns in the same price range. Once again ... apples and oranges. It just seems that most domestic manufacturers concentrate on 1911 style. That turns off half the gun buying marketplace. Take $500 - 750 dollars and shop foreign vs domestic. Keep the 1911s out of the domestic pile ... you have ...

SW vs HK
2 Ruger P series vs Sig
Springfield XD vs Glock vs Walther

It seems that quality is what you make of it. Lets face a truth, SIGS are prob the most quality gun out there now for the money. But a SW and HK are about the same (semi autos).

By the way, you dont have to do a thing to a 1911 but shoot it. You can choose to tune it to perfect it, but a 1911 should shoot as well as any other handgun out of the box. Anybody tells you diff is lying.

I dont know .... there are lemons out of all countries. It is the nature of the beast.

[Dorrin79]

While I love commie mil-surps and some Euro guns as much as the next guy, my American firearms have all worked fine.

I was very impressed with the fit and finish of my Springfield Mil-Spec 1911.
My Rugers have all impressed me with their reliability.
Even my Kel-Tec, which I hate, is a reliable, well-mde little gun.

So, while Euro guns may be better finished and fit, that is more a matter of taste, especially once you consider the premium you pay for, say, a Sig-Sauer.

[TechBrute]

S&W should stick to revolvers. They have yet to make a trouble-free auto, even when they borrowed someone else's design. I won't even get started on the S&W auto designs.

[10-Ring]

I think I'm gonna blame the liberals here again for totally screwing up the American work ethic! When workers think they're owed something just because they work in America, quality will suffer. Job security comes when you build a quality product! :banghead:

[Keith]

I don't think your generalization has any validity at all.

Compare a Kimber and a Springfield of the same cost. You won't find any tool marks and chatters on the Kimber pistol - you will on the Springfield. They'll both work right out of the box, but the Kimber will look a bit better and be a bit smoother.

Look at a Glock. While its a perfectly serviceable weapon, it's made out of plastic and metal stampings and costs $500! And don't ignore those warnings about reloads, or it may just blow up in your face. Finish...? it doesn't have any. Do you know of any American pistols sold with a warning about blowing up if you don't follow the directions?

Compare a Taurus and S&W revolver. Which will have the smoother trigger, better finish, most accuracy? There's no comparison, the Smith is simply a finer weapon.

You can pick up a Savage 110 for about $350. It will have excellent accuracy and rugged construction - your grandkids will still be shooting that rifle. Do you know of any foreign rifles that have those qualities, at that price?

Ruger makes a whole line of rugged weapons at low cost - pistols, revolvers, rifles... and all of them will outlast you with minimal care.

There are some excellent foreign weapons at reasonable cost as well, but we certainly compete with any of them.

Keith

[mwithers72]

I have a beretta 92f that is "made in USA" and I have not a problem one out of it. I take that back i did have a problem when I started to reload my own ammo and did not put enough powder in the load to cycle the slide,, but other than that It has been the most reliable pistol I have ever owned. I put about 400 rounds a month through it, 200 rounds twice a month. I will have to say this though I do spend a lot of time in the cleaning stage after the shooting is over, That may make a differance i don know and I am not saying that anyone here doesn't clean their weapon(s) any better then i do. I just feel that a clean weapon is a reliable weapon. that is just my story.:D

[Zak Smith]

I argue that the situation exists because, by and large, people don't care.

For counterexamples, look at SV, STI, Les Baer, Wilson, JP Enterprises, etc. You have to pay - sometimes a lot - for that level of quality.

-z

[Skunkabilly]

I think when it's all said and done, Made in America is not beating Made in Taiwan anymore, and that's just a sad statement...

I know, it's pretty pathetic huh.

I'm half-scared that HK is going to build a US factory.

[KRAUTGUNNER]

I'm the proud owner of two S&W revolvers.

A 686 6" built in 1989 and a 629 Classic DX 8 3/8" (1994).

Both guns needed some trigger tuning but they are outstanding accurate, rugged and reliable.

I love 'em!!! :cool: :)

[444]

Skunk, not trying to stir the pot here, but I would be interested in hearing about your FIRST HAND experiences that have lead you to believe that American firearms are junk.
Details please.

[TechBrute]

So you haven't hear about his M1A yet? It's the stuff legends are made of...

[Skunkabilly]

First hand:

1. Poorly tensioned Kimber 1911 extractor. Purchased 8/01. Cheap fix, but I expected better for a $959 gun that said 'custom' on it. What a moron I was.

2. M1A stock paint comes off when it contacts anything from the bench, to a magazine, to my hands. Paint would come off the stock in the magwell and get inside the action.

3. M1A muzzle brake was pointing skyward when assembled at the factory. To keep it pointing straight, the muzzlebrake was not fully tightened at the factory.

4. Springfield 1911 magazine release wouldn't release.

5. Springfield 1911 serrations poorly done. Not sure how to describe it, but the surface of the slide between the cuts looks 'crinkly'.

6. Misaligned barrel on US-made Beretta 92FS Vertec. Pointed low and to the left. Photos somewhere on the board.

7. Poor finish on US-made Beretta 92G Elite IIs. Including but not limited to slide stop grating off the lettering on the slide (does not happen with non-Brigadier models) and . I haven't been picky about this gun as it's still my favorite and it's a prototype gun. I can take a closer look at it and gripe more.

8. Wilson KZ45 hammer falling to half-cock every one a thousand, or so, rounds. I sent it to Wilson as a pre-caution (difficult to replicate the problem without slamming it home on an empty slide) and they sent it back to me declaring it was OK. After I sold it to a friend, it went burst fire on him, but thankfully I wasn't there so I guess that doesn't count as first hand.

There may be more, but I can't think of them right now.

[Atticus]

I may be mistaken but aren't Springfield Armory products actually manufactured in Brazil?

American products may not be what they used to be (for the same $ anyway) but they are still far better than non-European products in the same price range. Overall, I've had great luck with Kimber, Ruger, Remington, Beretta USA, and especially MARLIN products (great lever rifles!!). 95% of my S&W's have been excellent as well, and the other 5% were worth fixing. Can't say the same for the Taurus or SA products I've tried- they can keep their lifetime warranty- I want a gun that works for life, not one that keeps Fed Ex in business.

European goods definately have an edge in quality, but price is an issue, with CZ being an exception.

[444]

Thanks Skunk, that is what I wanted to know.

I don't think Springfield Armory is made in Brasil, I know their 1911 frames are made in Brasil, but I don't think they are assembled there.

The only gun I can think of that I wasn't satisfied with was a Springfield Armory 1911. It wasn't accurate. Oh, I suppose it was good enough for "combat". It could hit an 8 1/2" x 11" sheet of paper every time at 25 yards. I want a lot more than that.

This whole American vs. the world argument seems really blurred to me. Beretta is an Europeon company that has an American plant. Glock is a Europeon company that has a plant in the US.................

[jsalcedo]

Skunk,

All that would leave a bad taste in my mouth about American guns too.

Sounds like a bad case of Springfieldsucksitis.

Shame on Wilson for using substandard MIM parts :barf:

[Keith]

Well, one of your issues (the Kimber) was a very minor problem and a "cheap fix".

Two other items were on a Brazilian made gun, others on an Italian gun (though admittedly assembled in the US).

The "stock paint" issue is just... odd. If you order a gun with a cheap painted plastic stock, you shouldn't be surprised if you get a cheap painted plastic stock... They still make them in oiled walnut, but you have to pay a little more for quality!

The only real issues you have with American guns is the Wilson problem and the M1A muzzle brake thing. These are certainly valid issues, but I can't imagine why this would sour you on the entire industry.

Keith

[Trigger]

I may have to respectfully disagree with some of this.

I think that many American firearms are amoung the finest being made. If you look at AR-15's, many countries around the world use them. The 1911 market has been thriving very well over the last couple of years and the quality has been much improved especially Colt for example. Some of the european gun manufactures tend to be very good at marketing, especially in the early days when they entered the US market and gained share by offering products at a much lower price using very cost effective materials.

I'll give you the finishes, yes, some of them have very good finishes but the processes are hazardous and not allowed in the US. But, Rugers, Smiths, Colts, Kimbers, etc overall have very good products and certainly IMO would rival foreign made products. In general, I think the high quality foreign products are few compared to the other junk various countries are turning out.

Personally I think that our problem here is the limiting factors imposed by politics, legal issues, finanical issues, etc.

I would put a Colt series 70 new production up against any foreign handgun, I'd put an AR or Remington 700 against any as well.

Just my opinion.

[Skunkabilly]

Jsalcedo:
Shame on Wilson for using substandard MIM parts
Their CQB series are now MIM-free, as far as I know. I called them and they said they had so many complaints, they went back to the old (tool steel or whatever it's called??) parts. I don't know about their KZ series.

[Skunkabilly]

Keith,
Well, one of your issues (the Kimber) was a very minor problem and a "cheap fix".
I wish the manual would have told me to tension the thing as a maintenance item. I was hoping my 'custom' $959 piece would be smooth sailing.
The "stock paint" issue is just... odd. If you order a gun with a cheap painted plastic stock, you shouldn't be surprised if you get a cheap painted plastic stock... They still make them in oiled walnut, but you have to pay a little more for quality!
Indeed odd...it's normal for them to wear, but mine was so abnormal, SA replaced the stock for me. Which reminds me I have to return my junky one in the mail. But for $1350 (MSRP is in the $1500s range) the stock is anything but 'cheap'. Replacement cost from SA factory on the stock is in the $140 range. There are tons of guns out there at the fraction of that price that have synthetic stocks that are just fine.

I say all this with all due respect of course...if I sound bitter it's because of my guns and I'm not nipping at you :)

[Keith]

But for $1350 (MSRP is in the $1500s range) the stock is anything but 'cheap'. Replacement cost from SA factory on the stock is in the $140 range.

Look Skunk,

Plastic stocks contain about a dollars worth of material and they can produce them for next to nothing with injection moulding machines. Asking $140 for one is insane, but... that's what people are willing to pay.

Yet, it's still a piece of spray-painted plastic and wouldn't expect it to be something else.

Keith

[TechBrute]

Get a McMillan.

[WingZero]

When it comes to the mainstream, it is true that american products suck. Look at the music industry, there is not one song, band, or thought worth listening to on MTv, VH1.... or so forth.
So I agree that in "mass produced" mainsteam firearms, Austria, Germany, and Italy does put out a far superior arm. But when you find that one person that does it with american pride, with american passion, and for the art......... NOTHING beats American!
Try picking up a Kimber, a Caspian,a Les Baer, a Wilson Combat, an Armalite, a McMillan!
Now that is American Superiority!
Just my opinion.......

[KRAUTGUNNER]

@ WingZero:

Try picking up a SIG-Sauer P226 X-Zone all stainless steel pistol, or a H&K USP Expert or a Korth revolver or a H&K SL-8 or Sauer, Blaser, Krieghoff or Heym hunting rifles or shotguns.

Now THAT is German superiority!

Just my 2 cents. ;) :D

[Frohickey]

.

[TechBrute]

Hmmm... Germany vs the USA... If only we had a way to pit the two counties against each other... like a large war or something... maybe even involve the whole world. Hmmm... oh wait... we've done that. Maybe we'll go 2 out of 3... oh wait... we did that, too...

:D

[Frohickey]

Skunk... that that means is that you are a discerning American consumer who is careful about what you buy. When enough of you vote with your wallets, you can expect the manufacturers to change their habits.

That said, I am happy with the fit of my Springfield Armory M1A. Only the op rod was in there tight, I'm not happy with the groups that I get from the rifle, but that is probably me, and not the rifle. Only thing that is not good is the wrinkle-paint that would peel around where metal contacts it.

I've been happy with my Rugers too.

[goon]

All the guns I am thinking of the had defects could have been fixed in about fifteen minutes at the factory.
But I don't buy guns to send them back.
I buy them so I can own them and shoot them.
If I had wanted to wait two weeks on a gun, I would have put it on layaway.
Someone mentioned that QC seems to have now been turned over to the customer. I think that is pretty accurate.
The only thing is, some of us don't play that game.
Some of us just sell our defective Kimber of Springfield and NEVER buy one of their guns again.
Then we buy CZs and more C&R's.

[Andrew Wyatt]

Am I the only person who looked that those problems and said "those were problems?"

Well, most of them. the vertec barrel pointing in odd directions is a tad nuts, as well as the funky muzzle brake.

The other problems were non issues or easy fixes, IMHO. I don't know of my expectations are too low, or I just don't care because I can fix things, or what.

[444]

This reminds me of the old joke:

You know the definition of an expert ?
Someone that lives over 50 miles away.

[c-bag]

I agree - with reservations:

i think this is true in one field: autoloading handguns.

as for the other catagories:

shotguns: i think American products hold their own in this field.
sporting rifles: again, American guns usually offer the best combo of quality and value.
evil black rifles: more evenly matched but the AR-15 is still the gun to beat right now (might change after the AWB)
revolvers: we unquestionably rule here.

which leaves the semi-auto pistol. i think part of this is the fact that the ratio of autoloader to revolver sales has basicly inverted in the U.S. since the 1970's (30%/70% to 70%/30% auto/ rev.)and America has long been a revolver-oriented country while Europe has been more auto-oriented.

and although everyone owes JMB for laying the ground-work i think the europeans have been more ready to try new things such as polymer frames ect.; while we long held to the dogma that "real guns are blued steel and walnut PERIOD" thereby falling behind in the R&D.

which means today we come to a place where the U.S. makers are trying to compete in a market where they're behind the curve and don't have the features/gimmacks the mass market wants.

ON THE OTHER HAND the import laws keep low-end Euro guns out and may wreck the curve. can't think of many new Euro-guns that are even close to the worst we make (jennings, lorcin, ect.)

or maybe the handgun reached perfection in 1911 and the euros just haven't realized it yet.:D

[jsalcedo]

I wish the manual would have told me to tension the thing as a maintenance item. I was hoping my 'custom' $959 piece would be smooth sailing.

You aren't a fascist skunk: ( stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition)

But we could use a little severe economic and social regimentation for these
gunmakers that put poop on a stick and tell us it's caviar.

If I paid $959 for a gun I would expect utter perfection.

[axeman_g]

did anyone see the Tales of the Gun last night at 6pm on History Channel. It was about German small arms development ....

WOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOW. :what:

I think I person could be well server with any MP38 or MP40. A Walther P38 sure has caught my eye... I like seeing a German soldier with a HP35 ... that was interesting ... but the mack daddy id the MG42 ..... 1500 rds a minute. Sounded like cloth tearing.

I know the scene in SPR with the machine gun nest is scary. can you imagine facing that???

German vs US weapons superiority???? I dont want to argue that one right now. Two different beasts ... just like the cars I always say.

Axe

[Skunkabilly]

You aren't a fascist skunk: ( stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition)

I figure if the bad guys in WWII made it, it can't be half bad :D (Italian and German guns, Japanese cars)

[KRAUTGUNNER]

Skunk, the Italian military weapons were horrible P.O.S. until 1945 (with the notable exception of the Beretta submachine-gun M1938).

Just remember the Mannlicher-Carcanos M1891 and M1938, or the Breda or Fiat-Revelli machine guns! :barf: :barf: :barf:

It was a heinous crime to send the Italian soldiers into battle with such inferior weaponry!!! :banghead: :cuss:

The MODERN Italian firearms are very good to excellent (Beretta pistols, Benelli and Franchi shotguns).

[seeker_two]

The MODERN Italian firearms are very good to excellent (Beretta pistols, Benelli and Franchi shotguns).

And don't forget the Beretta rifles & SMG's...:D

http://world.guns.ru/smg/berett12s.jpg

http://world.guns.ru/assault/beretta_ar70.jpg


My theory is that the import guns are approaching the level of quality that US makers were offering 20 years ago while some of the American makers are maintaining the same level--but charging twice as much for it (Ruger being the significant exception).

Compare the CZ rifles of today to the Remingtons of 20 years ago. Both great rifles. If you compare it to a MODERN Remingon, the CZ would beat it in quality & price.

I think Skunky's on to something...

[Skunkabilly]

Atticus and Keith:
Atticus:: I may be mistaken but aren't Springfield Armory products actually manufactured in Brazil?

Regarding Springfield Armory, Inc, their 1911s and Brazil, this from Adam at SA, Inc.
The frames of our 1911s are rough forged in Brazil. All the machining is done here in the US, and all the other parts are made here. I hope this clears it up.

[jem375]

You're both........

[Schuey2002]

Thanks, Skunk. ;) :) :D