[USMCDK]

Okay here it is, a CRAZY idea.

I was pondering cause I am bored and got to thinking. A bullet made out of ice. (you say that's impossible or just not practical, it'll melt right???) So instead I thought of actually a bullet that's incased in ice. Follow me here for a second. I know how stupid this sounds and trust me I feel kinda dumb talking about it but I want to see what everyone else thinks or what they might have to say about how to make this actually work/practical.

I was thinking about how it would be possible and came up with this kinda outlandish but not impossible idea. The idea is kinda one that is formed around reducing/eliminating the rifling on the bullet but allowing the bullet to get the effects (accuracy and greater distance) of the rifling in the barrel. I know this just sounds straight dumb and quite criminal to be honest, but I assure you it more of an entertainment thing than anything else.

With that said: here's how I thought it up.

You make a mold (let's go with a .45) to make the ice bullet in and of course you add water, now you'd find a way to take a .22 LR bullet and place it into the water to be frozen (with the tip of the .22 being the tip for the .45 ice bullet) now the hard part, loading it into a casing. this is going to take a really cold cold COLD (like below zero cold) room to do this in as to not melt the bullet. of course you'd need tong like tools as to not touch the bullet and melt it with your body heat. Also you'd need all the load/reloading tools too.

So let's say you've constructed and loaded the bullet... Now comes the even harder/impossible part... Loading them into you firearm and using them before they melt. That's going to take some kind of miniture (and I mean miniature freezing compartment that's portable.)

Now okay I am going to admit that it's a really friggin impractical idea but it's one that makes you think, and think kinda hard, about how it could be made possible. So what do you all think what are some of you ideas on this.

Please be polite about this and also entertain us simple minded folk LoL. :neener:

Oh one last thing, don't be shy to add to the idea and or change some of the componenets. I had someone actually say use a different material than ice.

S&R

USMCDK

[p2000sk]

Interesting. Have you considered making an entire weapon of ice?

[lloveless]

I suspect on ignition the hot gasses would melt the ice, massive blow by would occur and the .22 bullet would have little or no effect, on your intended target.
You might consider a bullet of dry ice with a gas check. All components would have to be kept at around 20 degrees F. til used.
ll

[USMCDK]

Interesting. Have you considered making an entire weapon of ice?

That's rhetorical LoL. But no I haven't.

I suspect on ignition the hot gasses would melt the ice, massive blow by would occur and the .22 bullet would have little or no effect, on your intended target.
You might consider a bullet of dry ice with a gas check. All components would have to be kept at around 20 degrees F. til used.
ll

I kinda thought the same thing but wasn't sure if that actually might be the case that the ice would immediatly melt or shatter, or if it would at least make it out of the barrel before releasing the actual bullet. So you could be right. Also the Dry Ice is a very good idea that is a point of interest.

[19-3Ben]

It sounds to me like you are trying to recreate a sabot round, but with ice. very interesting. but i think that even if the ice doesn't melt as soon as you touch off a round, it would still just shatter from the sudden acceleration and friction.
Perhaps it would need some kind of buffer under it, like how you have a shotgun shell. That might protect it from gases and some of the other issues.

[BigBoreFan]

Its probably possible if you used compressed air or CO2 as propellant. Super cool the barrel with dry ice. I'd bet an interesting drop table having to take into account temp, rel humidity, and barrel temp. If I lived north of Barrow I'd probably look into it.

[Floppy_D]

Mythbusters did this on episodes 1 and 14 and couldn't get it to work either time. Link. (http://mythbustersresults.com/episode1)

[wnycollector]

+1 on mythbusters, they did a pretty good job shooting down the idea.

[jackstinson]

Yep....MythBusters.
HOWEVER.....the first time I saw this mentioned was in a old old Charlie Chan movie. The victim was shot, but no bullet could be found. Charlie figured out that it was an ice bullet.
I think CSI recently used a frozen blood bullet.

[earplug]

Simple test would be to cutdown a shotgun shell leaving the wad/cup in place.
Load it with a ice cube and shoot it.
Just drop the ice cube down the barrel before firing. Not safe, but I bet it would work.

[coop4u2c]

Did Mythbusters try a gascheck?

[highorder]

the crystalline water ice cant take the shock of acceleration to any appreciable velocity.

People short on science and physics education are never short on ideas.

This idea is done to death.

[edrice]

The density of ice is even less than than the density of water, which is way less than the density of lead. If you could even get it down the barrel, once it hit the air it would probably turn into a spray or mist than would only cloud your objective and look momentarily something like white smoke.

Might be a heck of a show as compared to a water gun.

Ed

[A/C Guy]

An easier method would be to use a paper wrap around the bullet. Take a .40 caliber bullet and wrap it to load in a .45 shell. That would give you acceptable accuracy for close range and leave no rifling on the projectile. There are even paper patched bullet molds if you want to pour your own.

The easiest solution is to buy a .45LC / .410 convertible pistol and shoot .410 shotgun shells; if you want a non traceable concealable weapon.

[HIcarry]

I think CSI recently used a frozen blood bullet.
I think it was a frozen meat bullet, wasn't it? But, if the info on the CSI site is correct, Mythbusters debunked the meat bullet as well in episode #1.

[jaholder1971]

A bullet made of IMHO would shatter simply from the forces of ignition, resulting in lots of shattered ice, water, wet powder and flame coming out of the barrel as well as a gun with wet innards.

Gas checked? THe shattered ice would stay together in the barrel until it left the muzzle, then water and pieces of ice would go everywhere, leaving you again with a wet gun.

Pressures? I dunno, which is why I'd NEVER try this on a dare.

[highorder]

Can anyone think of a LAWFUL reason to avoid rifling on your projectile?

We don't advocate breaking the law here.

[Mad Magyar]

This reminds me of an English "who-dunnit" movie where the perp used a bullet of "dry-ice"....When the body was discovered, they found the wound, but no bullet....BTW, he got off scott-free, and using the rule of Double Jeopardy, told the authorities how he pulled it off...Fascinating...:)

[DRYHUMOR]

I thought of ice once, then I thought of wax.

Close range for sure. Just the gas and debris would be effective.

I can't remember the actor's name, but a good while back he pointed a 44 loaded with blanks to his head and pulled the trigger. Poor decision, it didn't work out too well.

[USMCDK]

Okay one it's is not illegal to find way s of not having rifling on ones bullets, so henceforth i'm not even advocating anything against the law. Secondly I already told you it was merely an idea that I was more along the lines of... well here let me quote myself

I know this just sounds straight dumb and quite criminal to be honest, but I assure you it more of an entertainment thing than anything else.

So please read closely before you start pointing a finger. Thank you. Also I still do appreciate the input highorder, I know that you and I haven't always seen eye to eye, but your imput is always welcome my friend. Thirdly there are some good reason to avoid putting rifling on a bullet. RELOADING. I know that my 1911 carves some pretty good groves into my bullets and I know of some that reload already shot rounds back into casing. Now I know what some are thinking here. bullets fragment upon impact... Not always so true. I have seen bullet, that I have personnally shot into a 5gal plaster bucket full of sand that didn't even flinch with the exception of the rifling on them.

Okay now here's a question (a noob one at that) what the heck is a "gas check?"

An easier method would be to use a paper wrap around the bullet.

A/C Guy I thought about this and read up on this a lil bit. The paper is a good idea but it doesn't always eliminate the rifling. But still thanks for the input.

I can't remember the actor's name, but a good while back he pointed a 44 loaded with blanks to his head and pulled the trigger. Poor decision, it didn't work out too well.


:banghead: nuff said LoL.

[TexasRifleman]

I think they did this one on Quincy didn't they?


I can't remember the actor's name, but a good while back he pointed a 44 loaded with blanks to his head and pulled the trigger. Poor decision, it didn't work out too well.

Jon-Erik Hexum

[highorder]

Secondly I already told you it was merely an idea that I was more along the lines of... well here let me quote myself


Quote:
I know this just sounds straight dumb and quite criminal to be honest,


What do you mean we don't see eye to eye? :)


Thirdly there are some good reason to avoid putting rifling on a bullet. RELOADING.

That is one reason, and a not a good one.

Reloading used fired bullets is a BAD idea.

Fired bullets may look ok, but likely are impreceptably out-of-round. Concentricity and cylindricity, are important physical aspects, not to be ignored.

If you want to save money, cast lead, shoot it, recover and recast it.

Okay now here's a question (a noob one at that) what the heck is a "gas check?"


Lastly, this was the second entry in a google search:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_check

[DrLaw]

There was an old movie, along the lines of a Sherlock Holmes with Basil Rathbone as Sherlock, where the killer used a bullet made of ice. Only left water in the wound. That is probably where this idea came from. Another movie had killer using a knife made of ice. To hide it, it was put into a clear pitcher of water where it melted. No mention of blood on the ice-dagger, though.

Yes, the ice idea is a cool one, but it melts under scrutiny, and has been discussed here before in a now cold thread. :rolleyes:

The Doc is out now. (because I can't think of any more puns) :cool::neener:

[rcmodel]

Icicle daggers.

Yea!
That's the ticket! :banghead:

rcmodel

[Phydeaux642]

There was also a movie with Keenan Ivory Wayans that used this idea. I can't remember the name of the movie at the moment, though.

[Lonestar49]

...

Kinda makes me think of a mini sized Sabot round..

I'm bored too.. lol


Ls

[highorder]

As long as we're doing movies, "I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!"

[Gadget]

I've taken the opposite interest. I ran across some "flare/Incendiary" rounds at a couple of sites I've visited. I got this crazy idea and asked some of my friends at the local forensics lab. If these rounds perform as advertised, what would be left to analyze? I was informed very forcefully not to pursue the line of thought by the lab guys and the local sheriff. As I see it, there would be no rifling left for identification.

[9mmepiphany]

i guess good ideas never die...it's been done

the KGB made an asassination weapon the fire ice "bullets" with compressed gas

it was pretty much a "contact weapon" as the "bullets" didn't have much mass.

[conw]

People short on science and physics education are never short on ideas.

A recent quote I read said "An inventor is simply a fellow who doesn't take the things he learned in school too seriously."

:)

[Loomis]

Use mercury metal cooled via liquid nitrogen.

I think gun powder loses it's power at extremely low temps though. So you might need to find a new form of propellant.

As for handloading it, do it backwards. make a bullet mold that holds an empty case. Fill the mold with liquid mercury, then insert case. Then cool the whole cartridge. Tada, no crimping required, or handling of super cold components.

The base of the bullet might need to be insulated from the burning propellant. The friction of the bullet on the rifling will liquify the surface of the bullet and compromise the torque exerted on the bullet by the rifling.

Therefore, to minimize the heat added to the mercury, I would propose that the barrel of the gun be cooled to liquid nitrogen temps as well. Maybe design the bullet to have a hollow base so that the bullet expands to a tight fit as the outer layers melt off.

Now you have a very complex design problem. Metal properties change at very low temps. The bore diameter may change as the projectile travels down the barrel due to temperature. bullet loses mass as it travels. Parts will be brittle. You have to develop a new kind of propellant or at least completely re-calibrate loadings and charge quantity since power and burn rates are all thrown off.

BTW, mythbusters is a show full of total idiots. They couldn't find their a$$ with both hands.

Here's a thought: If you're just trying to hide rifling marks on a slug, why not go with a smooth barrel and a traditional lead projectile?

Smooth bore musket...DOH!

[Cosmoline]

Frozen water isn't going to work well because the friction would melt it almost instantly. Maybe there's some other kind of frozen chemical that would hold up better. The only practical application other than Spenard in January would be outer space.

I think gun powder loses it's power at extremely low temps though. So you might need to find a new form of propellant

Denser air will slow down a projectile faster, maybe that's what you're thinking of.

BTW, mythbusters is a show full of total idiots.

What a profound and witty criticism.

[zxcvbob]

Mythbusters used a small caliber rifle bullet to maximize the probability that it would fail. A large-bore handgun with an ice bullet might have had a chance.

[Loomis]

"maybe that's what you're thinking of."

Nope. Burn rates. The frozen chosen 30 carbine snafu.

[Cosmoline]

Where did you hear the performance of the M1 Carbine at Chosin had anything to do with powder burn rates? There may be some variation in burn rates in very extreme cold, but it's not going to be enough to matter on the business end. There is also the effect of denser air. Your contention that powders won't function in deep cold is incorrect. At least not any cold we have on this planet outside of a lab.

[USMCDK]

I was thinking the same thing about how the extreme cold would effect the powder/propellent. I never really thought about it and would have to research up on that.

[Aka Zero]

Why not freeze something that's not water. and not super cooled. Like a low melting alloy. if it melts around 120 degrees. Rifling would essentially melt off the round, and not reduce integrity much, and no barrel cooling needed, maybe a patch, that's it.

[Colt Smith]

The idea is not totally implausible. During WWII the US and Candian navies experimented with the idea to build an unsinkable aircraft carrier out of ice. Actually the material was called Pykrete. Google it.

Pykrete is a composite material made of approximately 14 percent sawdust or some other form of wood pulp (such as paper) and 86 percent ice by weight. The properties of such a composite were apparently first noted by a couple of researchers at Polytechnic University of New York, and were investigated more thoroughly by Max Perutz. Its use was proposed during World War II by Geoffrey Pyke to the Royal Navy as a candidate material for making a huge, unsinkable aircraft carrier. Pykrete has some interesting properties, notably its relatively slow melting rate (due to low thermal conductivity), and its vastly improved strength and toughness over unmodified (crystalline) ice, actually closer to concrete. Pykrete is slightly more difficult to form than concrete, as it expands during the freezing process, but can be repaired and maintained from the sea's most abundant raw material: water.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pykrete

[Kentak]

Why not cast a bullet of gallium? It's solid at room temperature but melts at about 85 F. The friction going through the barrel would probably destroy the rifling marks, but it would also melt completely in a body temperature target.

K

[meef]

Might as well use flavored water while you're at it.

Heck, make it a 12 gauge round and you could shoot popsicles.

Or here's a great idea for a thread..... what caliber ice bullet for snowmen?

:cool:

[USMCDK]

The idea of using another liquid other than water is an intriguing one I might say, that is something to look into.

[CYANIDEGENOCIDE]

using traditional powders you aren't going to launch anything that can't stand up to a few hundred degrees. no ice bullets, no gallium bullets, no pykrete bullets. you best bet for eliminating rifle marks would be a sabot like the .30 cal slap or the 50 cal slap, or even the .30-06 accelerator from remington. of course by the time you are into rifle territory just step up to a copper solid and there would be much less chance of the bullet ever being recovered.

[USMCDK]

what would be the melting point for the galliun or pykrete bullets???

[brassdog]

Oh come on! I see this leading right into "Forget the gun! Use the knife, hence no rifling marks." :rolleyes:Then you just ditch or destroy the knife. It's amazing how much free time some of you guys have! By now we could have invented cold fusion thus saving the world.

Heck, why not use the cold fusion portable reactor to power the 40w phaser. I bet that wouldn't leave any "rifling marks.":)

FWIW, I did like the frozen hamber bullet too. Sorry about the earlier rant but ten years my wife suggested the same thing to silence the neighbors' yippy dog. I just rolled my eyes at her and laughed.:rolleyes:

[duo02]

a pistol that shoots water?... sounds like a gun powdered super soaker

[Geronimo45]

Why not just use a lithium (or similar metal) bullet? Reacts violently with water. In theory, the rifling marks (along with the bullet) would 'melt' away in the mostly-water human body. I don't know if it's been tried before.

[Realbigo]

I remeber The Wayans movie, and an ep of Murder She Wrote that used an "Ice Bullets". The CSI ep, it was frozen beef, molded as a bullet. The Bugs that grisom discovered only rescted to dead cattle. Seemed a bit out in left field to me, but I've heard less inteligent questions ;)
How about an Ice dart using compressed air????

[p2000sk]

A lot of thought
A lot of work
To answer the initial question of the thread
With another question

If you USMDK can invent this idea and patent it...
Who is going to buy it?
What legal purpose can be done with this idea?
Maybe the whole project could be sidestepped by pondering the thought...

Why bother?

Imagine the headlines:
Serial Popsicle Killer Strikes Again!

[USMCDK]

okay one you guys are getting off topic.

secondly: IT"S NOT AN ICE BULLET that I am gettig at... the ice is merely like a shell around the bullet. re-read the OP

I don't give a $#!t if the ice would be the projectile hitting the target. I understand how silly this idea sounds, but get with the program, this thread was created to get the creative juices flowing in your heads, but apparently those juices seem to be frozen like the idea of this bullet, or at least the ice that was purposed to surround it.

Okay so now that I have that out of the way, seriously and sorry for being insulting, I just want this thread back on track.

The idea ISN'T about a abullet made of ice, I ALREADY KNEW THAT ICE WOULD SHATTER AND MELT JUST FROM THE EXPLOSION the concept is to create a round that would have NO rifling on it.

There would really be no leagal purpose unless you consider SpecOps to be a legal purpose and it's possible from them to need something like this, as to not incriminate America or any other country for that matter. Needless to say it's just an IDEA.

So I hope you are following with me here now, it's just a concept and not one that looks to find a way to make a bullet out of ice to be the projectile (mainly).

What about using wax as the shell surrounding the bullet, would that hold up better???

[highorder]

What about using wax as the shell surrounding the bullet, would that hold up better???


No.

The temperatures and pressures involved preclude your line of thinking. The plastic sabot, in some form, accomplishes your "goal".

This thread has strayed off topic because the topic is flawed, moot, and done to death. :)
it's possible from them to need something like this, as to not incriminate America or any other country for that matter.

Incrimination? The US has shipped millions of service rifles (M1's, M-16's) all around the world... Finding a 5.56 bullet with GI barrel rifling characteristics in some corpse in Romania isn't going to provoke Interpol into a full blown indictment against rogue forces inside USSOCOM...

sorry, what was I saying?...

[fletcher]

Any ice coming in contact with the barrel would fail, resulting in a loosely held, non-stabilized bullet coming ou the end.

Bullets are ductile, and deform to engage the rifling; ice does not have this ability. A brittle material like ice flying into the rifling would cause it to shatter before the entire round fully left the chamber - this is what would really ensure its destruction, moreso than the shock from explosion of the powder. The idea is impractical if you desire any sort of accuracy or consistency. Off the top of my head I couldn't suggest any other material that could be used to help not leave rifling other than the sabots already mentioned - they maintain pressure to stabilize the bullet in the barrel, then drop off afterward. Maybe something that would react with air once hot and out of the barrel to burn off real quick?

[Norinco982lover]

i think i saw a movie on TV once where this assassin sniped a guy using a hi-tech crossbow and a bolt made of dry ice (he got it out of a freezer/briefcase) and it went thru his target, hit the concrete behind them and shattered.

[meef]

So there I was, confidently strolling the streets having recently acquired my CCR (concealed carry refrigerator) when all of a sudden a mugger pulls me into a dark alley.

"Your money or your life", the thug says.

Hoo boy, is this creep in trouble now!

I flung open my trenchcoat, thereby revealing the tactical icebox/generator combo on wheels it was covering, and with a flurry of well-practiced motions I opened the icebox door and drew my large caliber icegun!

"You're doomed now, chum!" I gloated as I went into a Weaver stance and prepared to Mozambique his dumb butt.

I pulled the trigger.

Nothing, nada. Just a couple of measly drips from the barrel.

Damn! I then remembered the last time I cleaned my ice gat I used antifreeze instead of Breakfree.

I meekly handed my wallet over to the lowlife scum and silently promised myself that from now on I was going to be sure to wear a backup popsicle whenever I went out.

Just not carried in Thunderwear.

:cool:

[p2000sk]

The idea ISN'T about a abullet made of ice, I ALREADY KNEW THAT ICE WOULD SHATTER AND MELT JUST FROM THE EXPLOSION the concept is to create a round that would have NO rifling on it.

Perhaps you could buy a smoothbore rifle from your class III dealer.
Uses regular ammunition. Literally can be bought over the counter.
It's already manufactured, think of all the time saved at the lab
because you don't need to invent forensic proof projectiles.

[USMCDK]

okay okay I get it bad idea, i was really hoping that this thread would start the creative juices in our heads to flow, but most of you just hammered this idea into the ground, i'm not mad about it though. I was really hoping to see some theoretical ideas from you all, oh well. however I really like what meef posted

So there I was, confidently strolling the streets having recently acquired my CCR (concealed carry refrigerator) when all of a sudden a mugger pulls me into a dark alley.

"Your money or your life", the thug says.

Hoo boy, is this creep in trouble now!

I flung open my trenchcoat, thereby revealing the tactical icebox/generator combo on wheels it was covering, and with a flurry of well-practiced motions I opened the icebox door and drew my large caliber icegun!

"You're doomed now, chum!" I gloated as I went into a Weaver stance and prepared to Mozambique his dumb butt.

I pulled the trigger.

Nothing, nada. Just a couple of measly drips from the barrel.

Damn! I then remembered the last time I cleaned my ice gat I used antifreeze instead of Breakfree.

I meekly handed my wallet over to the lowlife scum and silently promised myself that from now on I was going to be sure to wear a backup popsicle whenever I went out.

Just not carried in Thunderwear.


I thought that this way really funny and had a great laugh over it, thank you meef it was worth it.

[WVMountainBoy]

Hmm just wondering what about the 12 gauge flare rds they make for boating. I'm not sure if these shells will fire from a conventional 12 ga, but they have to have some substance to them that apparently burns off, should be easy to find/make a pistol sized 12 gauge, if not just the flare gun itself. As for the ice bullets I could only think of a very weak loaded dry ice bullet with a gas check being fired through a non-rifled bbl. I did like the idea I saw about using one of the many alloys that melted slightly above room temp. Though I think they'd still have to be fired from a relatively low power round to keep the friction from overly deforming them.

[Ske1etor]

Why not jacket the bullet in a thin layer of latex or other easily torn rubber like material. You could leave the nose of the bullet open. The latex would likely be torn completely off upon hitting the open air.