[psyprofessor]

Any suggestion for a 9mm that is....

1. Pocket carry
2. Utterly reliable
3. Able to use +P rounds
4. Must have manual safety
5. De-cocking lever a plus
6. Lightweight.

[blackcash88]

I don't think a gun that meets all 6 of your criteria exists. External safeties on 9mm pocket guns are pretty rare. Look at the common ones. Kel-Tec PF-9/P-11, Kahr PM9, Walther PPS, Rorbaugh R9, Glock 26 for those with huge pockets, etc. NONE of those have a manual safety...and for good reason. They don't need one.

I have the Kahr PM9 and it's been the finest 9mm pocket carry I've ever owned. It fits all your criteria except #4 and 5.

I'm assuming you're talking about pistols and not revolvers. If you're considering revolvers, forget about ANY manual safety right now.

[everallm]

Cz Rami 2075

[WNC Seabee]

I'm not certain about the safety and decocker, but a friend has the new(ish) Walther PPS that absolutely disappears in his front Docker's pocket.

It shoots really well too. ~1,000 rounds thus far with zero reliability issues.

[Guns and more]

I think #4 and #5 are mutually exclusive.
I don't think anything fits all of those criteria.
9mm. and pocket makes me think of the PM-9, but it's a DAO so no safety.
CZ Rami too big for pocket. (but a nice gun)
LCP great in a pocket, but not a 9mm.
I give up.

[prescobd]

A little on the large side, but it meets the rest of your criteria.

[oneounceload]

why the manual safety??..a DAO pocket nine, like the Rohrbaugh would fit the bill very nicely, (and expensively too)

[cookekdjr]

with your criteria, good luck with that...there is the cs9...and the cs9

[Loomis]

Beretta 92 compact "L" type "M".

No longer made.

That's the only thing I can think of that will meet every single one of your requirements...although item #1 might be questionable.

Possibly a bersa model of some kind. I don't know much about bersa.

I would like to know if you find anything better. I currently have a kahr PM9 and I too would like something the size of a PM9 with a decocker.

[Sistema1927]

I have carried a Kahr PM9 in a pocket holster everyday for the last couple of years, and I have never wanted a manual safety, let alone desired one. I feel as comfortable carrying it as I do a J-frame.

[FranklyTodd]

1. Pocket carry
2. Utterly reliable
3. Able to use +P rounds
4. Must have manual safety
5. De-cocking lever a plus
6. Lightweight.
In short, NO!

I think #4 and #5 are mutually exclusive.


No, my new Beretta PX-4 Storm Sub-Compact meets all of your criteria (including 4 & 5), and offers 13+1 capacity. I can, and have, pocket carried it, but it would be totally impractical to do so regularly, in a variety of pants.

Try a DAO S&W j-frame. All the power you want, total reliability, and nearly everyone agrees you are fine with not having a safety on a revolver! Mine is an M&P 340. 13.3oz of .357 might. Handful to shoot, but utterly safe, utterly reliable, and a dream to carry.

[19-3Ben]

That's the only thing I can think of that will meet every single one of your requirements...although item #1 might be questionable.

Questionable? uhhh...yeah. My dad has a 92compact with which I'm pretty familliar. It's no pocket gun. Heck, it's on the large side for belt carry.

[Loomis]

Hey, ben, read my post again. Nowhere did I mention anything about a compact 92.

My post said compact "L" type "M"

not the same gun there, sonny. Not by a long shot.

[MICHAEL T]

9mm+P in a pocket pistol No thanks

The kelTec little 9 is nice bit snappy with plain old 9mm I wouldn't want +P But then it doesn't fit the other requirments.

[Prince Yamato]

How can you people fit some of these guns in your pocket? PPS, a pocket gun? Only if you have HUGE pockets.

[blackcash88]

The PPS is only slightly taller and longer than the PM9, which I carry daily. I could easily accommodate the slightly larger PPS.

[LightningMan]

Rohrbaugh is really the smallest pocket 9mm out there, that you can slip into your jeans pants pocket without needing much more to hid it. That said, it has issues and they do not recommend using +P ammo.
As for meeting your needs;
1. Pocket carry
2. Utterly reliable
3. Able to use +P rounds
4. Must have manual safety
5. De-cocking lever a plus
6. Lightweight
I believe only 1#, 6# and maybe 2#, (as I have not shot one) will make it. LM

[Bennett Prescott]

How can you people fit some of these guns in your pocket? PPS, a pocket gun? Only if you have HUGE pockets.
Depends on your style of dress. I'm already carrying a magazine in holster, car keys, and house keys in the left pocket. Right pocket is phone... I'm planning on putting an LCP in there too (in holster)... I don't think it will be an issue.

Then again, I wear 40x30 Carharrts and am a reasonably big guy. If I was wearing Dockers and tried to get away with this, then there might be some extra effort made to get things to play nice together, but even a PPS is a lot smaller than some of the .38 revolvers I've seen in people's pockets.

[Prepster]

I can get away with a Glock 19 in really baggy shorts with a good belt. Oversized pockets really help. If you don't need to wear things that fit properly on a regular basis you can conceal just about anything.

[19-3Ben]

Hey, ben, read my post again. Nowhere did I mention anything about a compact 92.

My post said compact "L" type "M"

not the same gun there, sonny. Not by a long shot.

Ah, you are right. I missed the "L" and "M".

My apologies. I stand corrected.

[mythos]

I can get away with a Glock 19 in really baggy shorts with a good belt. Oversized pockets really help. If you don't need to wear things that fit properly on a regular basis you can conceal just about anything.

Heh, this is my first time posting... been reading awhile and this thread spiked my interest.

In our department, some of our guys carry Glock 26s. They're smaller guys than me, shorter and of slighter frame, and they can make a Glock 26 invisible in their pockets in just about anything except a tight pair of jeans.

However, of course, Glocks have neither the manual safety nor a de-cocking lever. Still, it's one of the best CC guns I've come accross.

I just wish my hands were small enough to use a G26 comfortably. I personally prefer the G19 for my 9mm, I just can't carry it in my pocket unless, like you said, I am wearing really baggy shorts/pants, or have big, deep pockets.

[un_lucky]

If you can find a Colt pocket9 you would have alot of what you want.

[blackcash88]

Rohrbaugh is really the smallest pocket 9mm out there, that you can slip into your jeans pants pocket without needing much more to hid it.

Yeah, but I doubt he wants to spend $1000+ (if he can even find one) for a pistol of VERY questionable reliability. Just go to the Rohrbaugh forum and read all about it. No +p, recoil spring assembly has to be changed waaaaay too often as the manufacturer themselves recommend changes every 150 or so rounds. Sorry, too high maintenance. They sure are nice looking, though.

[blackcash88]

quote]9mm+P in a pocket pistol No thanks [/quote]

Oh, come on...man up! :neener:

My carry ammo in my PM9 is some hot +p Corbon stuff. I shoot it out to replace it all the time at the range and the recoil is no problem. I'd shoot it exclusively if I could afford it. :eek:

[benderx4]

Rohrbaugh R-9 if you have lots of bucks, Kahr PM-9 is you have some bucks, and the Bersa Thunder-Mini 9mm is you only have a few bucks. (Although none of these guns fit ALL of your criteria.)

[Kind of Blued]

I'm picking up a Kel-Tec PF-9 tomorrow and wondering why I even need a(n exposed) slide stop...

It's nice, small, very light, simple, can shoot +P, has a 5-6 lb. trigger pull, no safety, and will never "go off" in my pocket. Assuming it runs well, what more could you want? Or less?

If I could get rid of the magazine release and have the slide stay open and eject the magazine after the last round, I'd be all for it. :)

[CDH]

I'll add to the Rohrbaugh vote.

Just recently got mine and it's one of the most well made pistols I've seen in the "pocket" class.

Dont' need or want +P's in this class.
No protrusions AT ALL to snag or accidently drop the mag if hit.
Totally safe double action pull. No safety needed.
No decocker needed because it's never cocked. The smooth trigger pull works just like a revolver.
I've found it to be totally reliable with HST, a great self defense round.

9mm in a teeny package. The Rohrbaugh has it all.

Just remember that it's not a plinking pistol. It's a specialized self-defense tool. Shoot it enough to familiarize yourself with it, then put in a new recoil spring, and take it with you wherever you go.

[unisonic12]

Sorry, CDH, but the R9 is not something I'm going to drop $1000+ on and rarely shoot it. ANY gun that's relied on for self defense must be shot regularly to maintain proficiency and we all know that, in general, the smaller the gun, the harder it is to shoot. And that recoil spring absolutely kills it for me. That and all the horror stories about reliability...on the Rohrbaugh forum hosted by the manufacturer! What's the round count for swapping it out now? Something like 150 rounds? Pathetic. My PM9 isn't that much bigger at all and has thousands of rounds on the current recoil spring and much of that has been +p. Corbons are my carry load.

[dbp95]

look at Glock and Kahr or Beretta 9000.
DO NOT purchase Kel-tec or SCCY, they will jam....
even if you decide on a Glock, Kahr, Beretta, you will find that
even though they are considered "compact", they will not
carry in a front/back pocket very well, all of the pocket 9's I've
had "print" really easy and are not a good "pocket" carry.
for a true "pocket" gun you can trust the Ruger-LCD.380.

I recommend S&W J-frames or Taurus mod 85 or similar models.....

[IMTHDUKE]

I'll add to the Rohrbaugh vote.

Just recently got mine and it's one of the most well made pistols I've seen in the "pocket" class.

Dont' need or want +P's in this class.
No protrusions AT ALL to snag or accidently drop the mag if hit.
Totally safe double action pull. No safety needed.
No decocker needed because it's never cocked. The smooth trigger pull works just like a revolver.
I've found it to be totally reliable with HST, a great self defense round.

9mm in a teeny package. The Rohrbaugh has it all.

Just remember that it's not a plinking pistol. It's a specialized self-defense tool. Shoot it enough to familiarize yourself with it, then put in a new recoil spring, and take it with you wherever you go.

I will drink to that statement...I slip this one in a Desantis pocket holster....and it's outa sight till needed.
http://photos.gafana.com/photos/0896252680996590803912.share.jpg

[SniperStraz]

dbp95 Are you saying that you trust the Ruger LCP more so than the Kel-Tec P3AT? Its been my experience and that of many others I know that the KT is reliable and that thus far the LCP is crap. Sounds to me like statements such as yours are a little "gun snobish." Have you owned any KTs?

[skeptiq]

dbp95 Are you saying that you trust the Ruger LCP more so than the Kel-Tec P3AT? Its been my experience and that of many others I know that the KT is reliable and that thus far the LCP is crap. Sounds to me like statements such as yours are a little "gun snobish." Have you owned any KTs?

LOL, I was thinking the same thing. I have heard great things about KT and have not ruled them out as a pocket carry for myself when the time comes. On the other hand with the LCP recall and what-not, I am far less trusting of that model right now. To each his own though.

Ben

[dbp95]

skeptiq
SniperStraz

somehow I got off track talking about .380, when the subject I was
blogging on was pocket 9's. my bad.

but, yes I have owned a P3AT, and it jammed & misfired repeatedly.
no I was not using crappy ammo.

the new ruger .380 I recently purchased has not given me any problems
with the same ammo (winchester factory 380 supreme).
if it gives me problems like the KT did, I'll get rid of it and get something
else again.

and no I'm not a "gun snob", in fact I am a healthy gun nut.
I have owned and still own handguns in small and large calibers.
I have bought and sold enough guns to also know you get what you pay for.
as with just about anything.

so Ben, you are right, to each his own.
I will stick with my j-frames for CCW and continue to dislike KT based upon
my personal experience.

have a good weekend.

[CDH]

Sorry, CDH, but the R9 is not something I'm going to drop $1000+ on and rarely shoot it.

Ahhh, spoken like a man who has not dropped the $1000+ on the pistol. :D

Well, I did ($1,150.00 plus tax, to be exact).
And as a man who has dropped the big money on this pistol, I can say that it's well worth it.

1. This little pup exhudes quality of manufacture and precision design. No one's going to accuse Rohrbaugh of "copying" anyone else's design.

2. Weighing as little as it does (under 13 ounces) and being a legitimate "pocket" pistol, there is no plastic on this little guy at all. Only the grips aren't metal, and they aren't cheap plastic, but a G10 glass reinforced epoxy material.

3. What you have to understand about the Rohrbaugh is that it truly is a specialized self-defense tool, not a plinker or range gun.
The only shooting you "need" to do with it is to verify that your favorite ammo works in it dependably (all pistols work better on one type of ammo over another). Shoot maybe 100 rounds of trouble free operation out of it, give a good cleaning, and it's ready to do what it was designed to do; be there when you need it and go bang when you pull the trigger.

4. As a pocket pistol, it's perfect because there are absolutely no protrusions of any kind to hang up on clothing. Even the mag release is under the grip, not on the side where it could be accidently pressed and drop the mag at a bad time.

5. About that spring... The spring that is recommended to be replaced is the recoil spring, and the recommended replacement time is 200 rounds.
A new spring costs under $5.00. 200 rounds of Gold Dot ammo cost's around $200. I don't see a problem here.
In mine, I'll will only shoot what I carry, so it's a waste of time and money shooting ammo that I will not be carrying in it.
As far as perceived dependability and durability of the recoil spring, keep in mind that each shot slams the spring to full compression (to keep the pistol this small, there's no room for a longer reach spring as in larger and/or less powerful pistols). The recommendation to replace the spring every 200 rounds is not because the spring will fail at round #201. It's done in order to be able to guarantee absolute reliability in a pistol that you may have to bet your life on.

The Rohrbaugh is about as serious a carry piece in it's size class as you can get. It's "everything matters" design shows, and the high quality execution of that design shows in the final product.

Here's a couple of randomly snatched comments about some other pistols you may have heard about. Check 'em out, and tell me which pistol you would like to have when your life depends on it:

About the P3AT:
Warning about the magazine release. It will wear out quickly because it's made of plastic. Your Kel-Tec magazines are metal. I have to send my P3AT back to Kel-Tec for that reason. Kel-Tec mag releases should be made of metal, not plastic. This is an issue with all Kel-Tec pistols, not just the P3AT.

About the PM9 and it's recoil spring:
I bought a PM9 earlier this year, February I think. I like the size of the PM9 and liked the one more round capacity than the .40. I also felt that controllability would be much better with the 9mm than with the .40. The thing is a handful to control in rapid fire even in 9mm (with the flush fit concealment magazine in place) so I think I made the right choice in caliber. I thought I had waited long enough for the bugs to be worked out and ordered one.
I picked it up and took it to the range. Many failures of the slide going completely into battery. Seemed to get a little better, then started getting much worse. Sent it back to Kahr. They claimed they replaced the recoil spring and polished a few things. Tried it again and it worked a little better, but not perfect. Even after I got it back it just didn't seem like the recoil spring was strong enough. I racked the slide many times to try to break it in and noticed something. When the pistol was clean and oiled the slide would completely close no matter how slowly you let it go forward, (although very weakly) but after 50-100 rounds if you let the slide go forward very slowly it would get to about 1/4" from completely closing and stop. This would happen whether the gun was loaded or unloaded, with the problem being worse when the gun was loaded.

[PX15]

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a73/Laserlips/100_9870.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a73/Laserlips/100_9858.jpg


Jesse

[Matthew Courtney]

The Kel-tec P-9 is a good little gun, and a great value. A few of questionable quality have gotten out, but that is more a function of the number produced than it is an indicator of poor design.

The desire and need for a manual safety on a DAO pistol can easily be over come by proper training. Substitution of training with gadgets gets people killed.

[IMTHDUKE]

PX15....Nice..gun

You got some specs on it?

That one is outa production, right?

[SniperStraz]

I don't know anything about its reliability, but how about a skyy? Its pretty much a Kel Tec P11 with a safety.

[Bob79]

There aren't too many good pocket 9mm's out there. The Kahr PM9 and Rohrbaugh would be the only two I could see carrying. I've had a PM9, and it was OK, a few jams here and there. The Rohrbaugh is very expensive, about $900+, and check out the Rohrbaugh forum. Seems the guns can be fairly finicky with ammo.

I had a Kel Tec P11 that jammed alot, and a P32 and P3AT that both jammed a lot as well. If you want 99.9% reliable get a J-frame Airweight, very good guns. They are very good pocket guns. I currently have a Seecamp .32acp that I like a lot too.

Most 9mm compact handguns are best carried in a IWB or OWB holster. There aren't too many that will fit in your pocket. Good Luck.

[Bob79]

The CS9 is a great little 9mm. It is out of production yes. It is too big for pocket carry. They weigh about 23-25 ozs unloaded with an empty mag. They are just a little bigger in every dimension compared with a Glock 26, but they are slimmer. They were made in traditional DA and DAO.

[Matthew Courtney]

Would a 9mm that jams after the 6th shot be less reliable than a J frame, or more reliable?

[Bob79]

I don't know...is this supposed to be a trick question, or a serious one?

I suppose I would question any gun that jams, even on the last round in the gun, no matter how many rounds it holds.

Bottom line....have a gun, and make sure the gun works. Everything else about sights, size, brand preference, ammo, etc....it really is at the bottom of the importance chart.

[jbrown50]

9 mm pocket carry?

Any suggestion for a 9mm that is....

1. Pocket carry
2. Utterly reliable
3. Able to use +P rounds
4. Must have manual safety
5. De-cocking lever a plus
6. Lightweight.

The SCCY CPX-1 comes the closest to matching your list.
http://www.sccyindustries.com/gun_cpx-1b.html
It has an ambidextrous safety but no decocker. It's not likely that it will meet your #2 goal of utterly reliable though unless you and/or a gunsmith can work some magic.

I carry a Kahr PM-9 in a pocket holster so the lack of a manual safety doesn't bother me. If I was that worried about not having a manual safety I'd go with a j-frame revolver loaded with 38 special 135 gr. +P Gold Dots and a speed loader or two. The DA triggers are heavy but are very smooth and they hide much better than the CPX-1.

[PX15]

JMOfartO:

Well folks, here's the truth in a nutshell for those folks who desire to conceal carry a 9mm pistol on a regular basis..

Unless you have $1000.00 + bucks for the fine Rohrbaugh you are SIERRA out of luck.

The plain facts are that for the person who is looking for RELIABILITY (which is Job one for me in a self defense weapon) you simply aren't going to get it in the Keltec's, or the SKYY (with the crappy, imo unsafe external safety).

I don't have a Kahr, but many many folks do like them and consider them one of the smallest 9mm pistol available w/good quality for daily cc. I've read where the "plastic" Kahr's are NOT as reliable as the steel ones, but that is hearsay.

You do NOT want to buy a weapon for personal defense you cannot have trust in it's reliability.... A quality weapon loaded with quality ammo will GENERALLY be a good a choice as you can expect to find in a man made product.

For occasional cc duty in a reasonably compact 9mm pistol, I am extremely fond of the 3rd generation Smith & Wesson compact pistols. I think these offer as close to absolute reliability as a firearm made by man can be, and while they aren't the lightest ladies on the block, they are reasonably light. I have the 3913, 3913LS,6906 & CS9 and all can be carried concealed under the right circumstances. My CS9 makes the trip almost anytime I chose to carry a firearm of larger caliber than the 32 or 380cal.

I've found (after over 50 years of searching and trying) NOTHING, for me, conceals better on a daily basis than my Seecamp LWS32 in a rear pocket (wallet style) holster.. I pick up my wallet, car keys, and Seecamp and I'm good to go, any place any time...

Now before the "incoming" starts from those multitudes who disparage the puny 32 or 380 rd, I'm not saying either can do the job of a quality self defense 9mm round. But I AM saying that I can carry my Seecamp a whole lot of places, wearing anything short of a thong, and I feel adequately armed. The Seecamp just disappears in my back pocket, and since the object of carrying a conceal weapon is to actually HAVE that weapon on you then the Seecamp is a wonderful choice.

Or, a Seecamp (or other quality mousegun) in the back pocket trumps the 9 or that deadly 45cal hand cannon you had to leave at the house because it's too big, or too heavy, or not concealable for one reason or another.

IF I were to be determined to carry on a daily basis a 9mm pistol then I would save my pennies and buy the Rohrbaugh.. The Rohrbaugh is DESIGNED for just that purpose.

IF you can't afford a Rohrbaugh, then consider the Seecamp LWS32 at around $425 and you will be able to carry 24/7 (should you care to sleep in it), and it is extremely reliable... I consider 6+1 rounds of Speer Gold Dot jhp's as an excellent choice to a sharp stick, or harsh words.

On those times I CAN carry a concealed 9mm pistol (always in ADDITION to the LWS32) I like the CS9, 3913LS, or even my HK P7.

Just more personal opinion, but unless you buy drugs, or sell drugs, or live in a druggy neighborhood (move) and are NOT in the law enforcement community you are honestly unlikely to ever even need a cc weapon.. Keep your butt at home late at night and tell your darlin' if she needs milk or bread from the local "stop 'n rob" at 2:00AM to go back to bed and you'll get it tomorrow. BAD folks roam late at night, and if you aren't there when they're "there" you won't be involved in whatever crap is coming down.

You'll encounter a much nicer batch of folks at 10:00AM at Publix than at the 7/11 late at night. Trust me on this.

I LIKE 9mm pistols.. My favorite platform. But small and very light and concealable they are not.

Just personal opinion, no offense to folks who have differing opinions.

Best Wishes,

Jesse

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a73/Laserlips/100_6811_01.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a73/Laserlips/100_8018.jpg

[obiwan1]

I use GoldDots in my P11. No prob. My niece's husband uses GoldDots in his Kahr MK9. No prob. His Kahr cost 3.5x my KT. Having said that... I'd buy the Kahr if you could afford it. I bought the KT back over 10 yrs ago before the MK series of Kahrs were even dreamed of. By the way - I own an K40 and really like it. ;)

[IMTHDUKE]

Jesse

+1 Thanks for your post.

[22LRFan]

Bersa Thunder 380

1. It's not ideal for pocket carry...yet could be done or switch to belt carry for certain days.
2. There are a lot of people accounting for it's reliability.
3. I think you can load it with +P ammunition.
4. Yep.
5. Yep.
6. How lightweight is lightweight?

Also you never said 9x19 mm so...that leaves open .380 (9x17 mm) or you could get a Makarov (9x18 mm)!

[8830]

Best pocket 9mm I ever carried was a Kahr MK9. Little heavier than my snubby but worth it. You wanting a safety or decocker just adds girth and it will not conceal as well.

[Matthew Courtney]

I am glad someone mentioned the Mak. Most of those are well built little guns that stand up to a lot of shooting. On the heavy side, but very affordable and good ammo is available from Cor-bon.

[DAdams]

My choices for pocket carry are all DAO, pull trigger; no safety nor decocker required. Appropriately designed pocket carry holsters are necessary.

S&W M&P 340 Revolver, 5 Rounds of .357 Magnum possible, I prefer .38 spl plus P/ with CT 405 grips.

Seecamp LWS .380.

Kahr PM9.

One of these three covers about any pocket carry scenario you can imagine.

$2500 will get you all three including holsters.

You could get a BERSA Thunder .380 (except the 9mm) and it would meet most of your requirements.
It was my first pocket carry experiment at under $300. A bit heavy at 24 ounces. Or try the BERSA CC, .380 (I don't own this one).
I think I could make the Walther PPS work if I dressed to fit the tool. But then I like the tool to fit the occassion.

[unisonic12]

My Kahr PM9 and one of my Kel-Tec P3ATs has the pocket carry role covered quite nicely for me.