[Eric F]

Well once again IDPA rears its ugly head to handicaped shooters. My cousin in MI shot IDPA and there was a wheel chair bound shooter that shot faster and more accurately than any one else but due to stage set up he finishes last.

One stage in particular required prone shooting, cant exactly do that from a wheel chair.

Another was shoot from box then "step" into another box to shoot. Procedural was given because he didnt step into the box. HE cant.

I have seen this happen in person too. some say your not helping by not penalizing. I say its unfair to judge these people by standards set for "normal" people.

Just a thought.

[TexasRifleman]

I have seen this happen in person too. some say your not helping by not penalizing. I say its unfair to judge these people by standards set for "normal" people.

IDPA usually tries to present stages that one might encounter in a defensive situation.

Do you believe that a home intruder will present only "handicapable" scenarios to their victim?

There are other shooting sports but this one is intended to be more closely aligned with "real world" defensive situation.

If "winning" is all that matters take up one of the other shooting sports. Someone who is shooting IDPA and being true to the sports intention is not interested in "winning".

I notice that you are not the "victim" of this so called injustice, you are insulted FOR this guy? Did you talk to him? Is HE unhappy with this?

The International Defensive Pistol Association (IDPA) is the governing body of a shooting sport that simulates self-defense scenarios and real life encounters.

[DWARREN123]

It's like life, not always fair!

[jmorris]

We have a shooter that also requires the use of a wheel chair; we do what we can to accommodate (i.e. Shoot around a barricade instead of through a high port, sitting vs. prone, etc). How many times have you heard a lefty (or right) handed person say “the guy that came up with this stage must have been “X” handed”? You can’t make everyone happy all of the time. If your buddy really wants to game it towards his reality, have him MD a match and bring out an extra wheel chair, that will even the odds. If he is just frustrated that his physical limitations are keeping him from 1st place, stationary shooting sports would better for him.

[Eric F]

IDPA usually tries to present stages that one might encounter in a defensive situation
exactly he will never get a chance to shoot some one out of a high kitchen sink window. or from over a dutch style door. These are just 2 of the examples I witnessed. They gave him a procedural for shooting around instead of through the window or over the door. If that is all you can physically do its not gaming up the sport its being realistic. All I am saying is the sport should not penalize a person if they are using cover and making the hits. Winning has never been the issue because these type folks are not going to move from position to position very quickly.Do you believe that a home intruder will present only "handicapable"scenarios to their victim?
well yes, because anything that happens would be "handicapable". He would still shoot from where he could not stand up and shoot uver obsticles or go prone shoot and run to the next room. He would do all he was capable of doing from his chair I would think.If your buddy really wants to game it towards his reality, have him MD a match and bring out an extra wheel chair, that will even the odds. he has said this several times in jest but maybe that would be the ticket. I think it would be good fun.

[Justin]

I've heard it said that the basis of action shooting sports isn't primarily about shooting, it's about solving the problem presented to you as best you can.

At least, that's true for IPSC and Multigun. This guy solved the problem in the best manner that he could, and giving him procedurals for failing to commit actions that he is physically incapable of doing is ridiculous.

If the guy is in a wheelchair, that has to factor into how he solves the problem, and attempting to force him to use the same solution as everyone else is just patently idiotic.

[XDKingslayer]

A wheel chaired person is certainly not going to solve a real life shooting problem by jumping out of the chair and going prone or stepping from one arbitrary box to another.

Neither is a healthy person...

[ny32182]

I certainly appreciate what IDPA was meant to be: a competition with real world carry gear. Unfortunatetly I still feel there is much more "gaming" gear and tactics allowed than there has to be (and there *must* be some level of that present of course), but that is neither here nor there... obviously the line has to be drawn somewhere and few people are going to be completely happy with its exact location.

When I shoot IDPA, I'm not there to win the competition, I'm there to practice with my real world carry gear. IWB holster. Bone stock G19. Full powered ammo. Concealment no matter the weather, including my normal daily attire: a buttoned or golf/polo type shirt. *That* is why I am there.

Others are there to win the game: Every bit of their gear and clothing is set up to maximize their speed. That is what they are there for. Fine with me. They just have a different goal than I do.

In short, I'm only competing against myself. Regarding the guy in the wheelchair, that is what he should be doing. Does he want to win a game, or does he want to practice defensive type shooting skills as it applies to him? If the former, this game is not for him. He will have to find a different one. If the latter, why does he care if he gets a procedural for shooting from a sitting position rather than prone? The scoring penalty doesn't affect his ability to acheive his goal.

We had a guy in an electric wheelchair shoot at our club for a while. I honesty don't remember what sort of scoring they did for him.

[GEM]

Around here, you can ask the match director for a dispensation in such circumstances before the match.

However, is the purpose to win or have fun shooting. If the shooter got something out the match shooting the way they best could - did the match not serve its purpose.

I shot a local match with a 642 as I just wanted to shoot that gun in a match and get some practice with it. Not to win.

If I can't do a stage correctly because of my bad knees - that's just life.

[skinewmexico]

And I wish that when I get in a shoot out I will have mags staged around the mall when it happens, like some IDPA stages.

Never seen one of those. Plus a stage like that would violate the IDPA COF design rules.

[Eric F]

However, is the purpose to win or have fun shootingDoes he want to win a game, or does he want to practice defensive type shooting skills as it applies to him?
In talking with him He already knows he cant win just based on time moving from shooting positions kills his score. But he has no qualms about complaining when there is a position where you are required to shoot from with no other alternative. Such as the shooting prone through the "cat door" built into the bottom of the house door. That stage was just silly to be but fun. for him it resulted in a no shoot target and a procerural. As the main door was just a wall of card board with the door drawn on it. I guess what the real issue here is the local club. He could really care less about winning or loosing but for what ever reason getting procedurals for non compliance gets him every time. BTW he does will some stages like the non movement stages and such. Just unfortunate circumstances I guess.

[Phil DeGraves]

Procedurals were designed to make "gamers" follow the rules; in other words, skipping some procedure in order to make your time faster would result in a procedural. Since the guy in the wheelchair is not skipping a procedure to gain a competitive advantage, giving him a procedural is just ludicrous. Expecting him to go to prone is idiotic and poor training given his handicap. What a bunch of idiots. It's for those same reasons that I've given up competitive shooting; stage managers following the letter of the law instead of the spirit of the law.

[Justin]

...stage managers following the letter of the law instead of the spirit of the law.

Agreed. It's an indication of a lack of common sense if you ask me.

[creekerdoug]

I've been a competative shooter for many years and a IDPA Safety Officer for serveral years and I've never, ever, given a procedural penalty to a truly disabled shooter. I've also never seen a S.O. with much experience or much common sense who would ding a wheel chair bound shooter because of movement issues on high or low shooting positions.

I've been an S.O. for shooters with everything from wheel chairs, artificial limbs, morbid obesity and leg braces. They fact they have enough courage to actually come out and shoot a match in public when so very many healthy and able bodied people don't means they get some extra consideration on my stage.

Treating folks with physical problems or new or inexperienced shooters the same way you treat a 20 something Master Class shooter (who is quicker than a rattlesnake and faster than an antelope) is a great way to discourage the weak, new and inexperienced. I'm pretty sure that's not the way to grow the sport........

Any S.O. who discourages any shooters should probably not be running stages.

[Jim Watson]

Typical Internet IDPA Bashing.

As I recall, USPSA has a provision for "penalty in lieu of course requirement" that would affect a disabled shooter in much the same way as an IDPA Procedural for someone physically unable to get into a given position. Saw it applied only once; a USPSA stage started in a bathtub and two shooters too fat to fit the tub.

[Morgan]

Penalties should only be applied if the shooter gains a competitive advantage.

[JohnMcD348]

As a person looking in from the outside, I've never shot a IDPA or any other type match before so I can't really comment on how the rules are structured, but, Like other posters have mentioned, amd from my limited understanding of it, the idea behind these types of matches are to get close to real world situations.

The reason behind this is to present problems and obstacles, barracades, cover, concealment issues and you are timed in your ability to present your firearm and make hits on targets. That is part of the judgement of how well you negotiate the problem and find the solution to get around it. If you can't shoot over it, you shoot around it, if you can't shoot around it, you shoot over it. If you can shoot over or around it, then if you must, you shoot through it. I kinda think it wouldn't be right to penalize someone who obviously cannot stand and manuever the same as you or I but is capable of the same level of markmanship and skill. If anything, he would qualify for a deduction of time due to his quick ability to come up with other resolutions to a problem no one else has been presented.

And before, anyone picks this post, no I do understand how unsafe it would be to actually shoot through a cover area during a tournament.

[Eric F]

And before, anyone picks this post, no I do understand how unsafe it would be to actually shoot through a cover area during a tournament.
Well I missed a steel plate from a position durring a 3 gun match, When I transitioned to another area I could still see it but the way the rules were you had to shoot through the baracade of pallets at the new position, I had no shot from where I was ir had to shoot through the pallets to hit the steel, it took 4 shots and some serious guess work but I got it. Some places encourage shoot throughs others dont.

[pwrtool45]

IDPA is just a bunch of guys that can't make it in USPSA

And USPSA/IPSC are just a bunch of guys who can't hack Bullseye. What with all that sloppy shooting and racket making.

I think some guy named Brian Enos said something about members of one shooting sport ragging on members of another shooting sport. It was real edifying. He might have even written in down in a book somewhere. Maybe you should read it sometime.

[JoeSlomo]

giving him procedurals for failing to commit actions that he is physically incapable of doing is ridiculous.


Agree 100%

Sounds more like a MD problem than an IDPA problem IMO.

[solvability]

So, as I see it a handicapped guy is handicapped by his handicap - who woulda thunk it.:banghead:

[Jim Watson]

Suppose you want to be Mr Nice Guy and not apply that 20% (USPSA) penalty to somebody just because he couldn't assume an awkward position. So it turns out he is a good shooter if he doesn't have to crawl like that and wins the match? What are your other competitors going to think and say about that? Have we got the proverbial level playing field? Or did you overcompensate in search of P.C.?

[madmattmd]

Jeez, its' this type of "Us vs. Them" (insert your choice of shooting sports) garbage that keeps interested parties from trying either sport (IDPA vs USPSA, Sporting Clays vs Trap, Bullseye vs Action Pistol).

How about, "Shut up and shoot what you want?" It serves no purpose in denigrating another sport/activity. You just end up being another Jerk with an “opinion.”

Why not grow up and play nice? :D

Now, back to the original question about accommodating handicapped shooters ………………………………..

Matt

[JR47]

It seems amazing to me that neither sanctioning body has addressed the handicap situation, even if only in broad terms. It would appear that BOTH are guilty of that error.

Gamers are going to use whatever rules are in place to direct their choices, and move away from real world responses, to gain any legal advantage possible. USPSA only makes that painfully obvious. It's occurring in IDPA at the same rate. So what?

Neither is anything more than what you, the shooter, make of it. Let's stick to the OP's question.

In lieu of appropriate direction from the National group, it would seem more appropriate to discuss the problem with the local Board, and seek their direction. Posting on an Internet Forum, rather than trying to see what's really happening at the level of management available, is fruitless.

[Hoser]

This is NOT a thread about IPSC vs IDPA.

I deleted many posts here.

Keep it civil.

[Eric F]

Posting on an Internet Forum, rather than trying to see what's really happening at the level of management available, is fruitless.

I dont know about this part of the statement. From this thread I have seen enough to formulate some sugestions to the clubs IDPA director to resolve this issue.
First sugestion is going to be get rid of the goofy wood box you have to shoot in and just make a taped off area in the form of a box so the wheel chair and still get in the same area.
Second sugestion is going to be offer multiple shooting positions or do not peanilize for folks that cant get into a position perscribed by the schematic for the particular stage.

[Jim Watson]

I have seen enough to formulate some sugestions to the clubs IDPA director to resolve this issue.

As the local club's MD for 15+ years, first IPSC and then IDPA, I can tell you now that I was never very receptive to suggestions about what I should be doing. I was always VERY receptive to offers of serious help. You want to run something different to what you have been seeing, you set it up and run it. More RO-SO-CoF design staff is always needed.

First sugestion is going to be get rid of the goofy wood box you have to shoot in and just make a taped off area in the form of a box so the wheel chair and still get in the same area.

I don't know about your area, but there has not been a goofy wood box used to any real extent around here for a good number of years.

Second sugestion is going to be offer multiple shooting positions or do not peanilize for folks that cant get into a position perscribed by the schematic for the particular stage.

This will require great care to be sure that the allowances made do not amount to preferential treatment. The stage should still be challenging to the handicapped shooter you are cutting slack for. But you will take care of that, right? (See above.)

I figure that anybody wishing to shoot regulation IDPA should be able to execute the Classifier as written. If he can't, he can be accomodated to allow him trigger time at local club events, but he is not going to get into a sanctioned match that way.

[OH25shooter]

Maybe the simple answer to this dilema is what does the individual in the wheelchair expect from the sport? Does he want all kinds of freeby breaks? Or, is he there to enjoy the sport of competition shooting for himself. No need to compete with the other shooters, just see for himself how he would select to run the course...the hell with the penalites...just have a fun day shooting. He knows he's handicapped, no need for someone to tell him that at a match.

[Eric F]

Jim I understand what you are saying,

Back in the 90's a kid(6yrs old)IIRC was not tall enough to shoot over some of the obsticles and tha same folks then as now gave him breaks all the time.
I have made several suggestions over the years some get aproval or at least addressed some do not. Either way my point on starting this thread was to open discussion on solutions and what others think.

As for what does the handicap person think, Well he makes as much fun out of is as the next guy he just feels ripped off(my word not his) on getting peanilized for something he cant do. All things being equal he is good but the speed limitation keeps him on the bottom all the time which does not bother him. He just does not like getting peanilized when he cant physically do something.

I will say he does not know I have been talking on line about this but I did speak to him on a few ocasions to see how he feels about being peanilized and such. He has complained in the past to the Ro durring a practice night and got the usual I just run stages not the program. kind of responce.

I spoke with the program director durring lunch today some changes will be made I mentioned a trip hazard there by justifing getting rid of the shooting box. The other point will be looked into. I am satisfied with this. I think sofar they are being fair.

[Dustinthewind]

The Action Pistol course (a.k.a. Bianchi Cup) may be better suited for handicapped persons. Also it is a lot of fun, combining speed and accuracy without the use of awkward shooting positions. As far as altering rules to accommodate one, you are essentially discriminating against others. Personally I wouldn't have a problem with it but I don't shoot for medals, I shoot for fun.

[Grump]

This whole shooting box thing sounds ridiculous. Doesn't IDPA have some policy or range design statement discouraging silly foot-faults?

It would also seem reasonable that the procedural for shooting from other than the inaccessible port should be a single sort of procedural-in-substitution-for-compliance available ONLY to a disabled shooter, that's ONE penalty instead of per-shot as would be a proper penalty for a gamer.

Isn't there also some stage design guidance in IDPA meant to keep the events from becoming footraces?

[Jim Watson]

This whole shooting box thing sounds ridiculous.

As I said earlier, around here we don't use shooting boxes.
The Nationals doesn't use shooting boxes.
I didn't know they used shooting boxes in Virginia.

It would also seem reasonable that the procedural for shooting from other than the inaccessible port should be a single sort of procedural-in-substitution-for-compliance available ONLY to a disabled shooter,

Seems reasonable to me, since I don't believe in giving anybody a free ride. The disabled folks I know worry a lot less about their limitations than the able bodied around them. It is more about overcoming their limitations than getting accomodated.

that's ONE penalty instead of per-shot as would be a proper penalty for a gamer.

You are not informed on IDPA. IDPA never gives a procedural penalty per shot, that is IPSC. It is one penalty for each fault per stage in IDPA.

Isn't there also some stage design guidance in IDPA meant to keep the events from becoming footraces?

Yes, but even the ten yards given in stage design policy can seem like a long way.


At the shoot I went to today, there were three stages requiring firing on the move. They could have been negotiated in a wheelchair by shooting from cover with one P.E. or we could have had a lot of fun with someone acting as orderly to push the wheelchair while its occupant shot. I bet there would have been a movement toward EVERYBODY shooting from a wheelchair in that style. Yee-HAW.
One stage required shooting from low cover. I would not penalize a shooter in a wheelchair who got behind those barrels at all. He is pretty low to start with.

[Byron Quick]

The first three gun match I shot in had a stage that required right handed shooters to switch their rifle to their left side and then shoot the stage. Only one problem for me...I'm blind in my left eye so there I was with my rifle mounted on my left shoulder trying to use the sights with my right eye. Didn't work. They should have had the same setup in reverse for the left handers but they didn't. They got a walk on the stage.

Frustrating? Yeah, but it taught me something. Don't get in a situation where I need to shoot my long guns left handed.

[Tim Burke]

The first three gun match I shot in had a stage that required right handed shooters to switch their rifle to their left side and then shoot the stage. Only one problem for me...I'm blind in my left eye so there I was with my rifle mounted on my left shoulder trying to use the sights with my right eye. Didn't work. They should have had the same setup in reverse for the left handers but they didn't. They should have used the course design to make you want to switch shoulders. This would be acceptable if they made it so that switching shoulders was an option. If they make it the best option, some people would use it, and be rewarded. You'd still be at a disadvantage, but not an unreasonable or unrealistic disadvantage. I agree they should have also made it mirror imaged, so the lefties shot the same course in the same fashion.

[pax]

A wheel chaired person is certainly not going to solve a real life shooting problem by jumping out of the chair and going prone ...

No, but handicapped people DO sometimes get dumped out of the chair by an attacker, or overturned in a general rush for the door in a crowd situation. Being able to shoot from prone in that situation would be a significant and important defensive skill, worth testing for.

pax

[Jim Watson]

That sort of testing is best done in a training environment or at least with a student of the same approach to defensive shooting assisting. I don't want to dump somebody out of a wheelchair for a match stage.

[pax]

I don't want to dump somebody out of a wheelchair for a match stage.


No, of course not.

But you might simply assist them out of the chair so they can shoot the stage.

Or am I missing something??

pax

[.40-.45]

a year ago I shattered my left tibial plateau had it pinned back together and was no weight bearing for 3 1/2 months

I went to our IDPA matches and competed in the courses of fire I felt I could complete safely

I still have problems with that knee but I understand that this is something I'm going to have to deal with for the rest of my life and I had better figure out how I can make it with in the scope of my abilities.

.02

.40-.45

[Walkalong]

I think they should cut him as much slack as possible without turning it around and giving him the edge. Only those involved can figure out how to do that fairly.

I have only watched IDPA and have never shot it. I am fairly athletic, and never really thought about some of the situations brought out here. I play baseball with a friend who is blind in one eye. How he does it at all is testament to his competitiveness and fortitude. He does get frustrated at times. Try hitting a 70 MPH slider, or maybe it's a 80 MPG fastball, or a 75 MPH curve, in a split second, with two eyes, much less one. :banghead:

Work with those running the match, in a kind and patient way, and try to improve things for your friend. I bet if you were one of the ones who always helped out, it would go even better. :)

[GEM]

USPSA stage started in a bathtub and two shooters too fat to fit the tub.


Were two shooters in the tub together? Who sits in a tub wearing IPSC gear? Was this a Cialis commercial? I never understand why the two folks in those are in separate tubs.

I once saw an IPSC stage with folks on a fake horse. One shooter was so fat that ...

Anyway, I shouldn't talk - could lose a few.

[Jim Watson]

I once saw an IPSC stage with folks on a fake horse.

Last CAS matches I went to, Ol' Splinters, the full size rocking horse, was pretty much retired. Too many of the shooters too arthritic to get on and off.

[JR47]

Again, there should be some guidance available from the National group. Ignoring the handicapped is going to involve them in an ADA law-suit.

The largest problem is how to design a challenging stage, then allow for it to be "handicap accessible". There are various handicaps out there. Dyslexia is a handicap, does that mean no written clues in a stage? How about color-blindness? The use of flashing lights at a certain rpm has been proven to induce seizure activity in some people, as well.

Handicaps aren't always a wheel-chair bound person. Can you require weak-hand shooting of someone, maybe a combat vet, who lost a finger or two to an IED?

The idea that someone should be allowed a concession in competition will always turn around to bite the majority of the competitors. Perhaps the answer lies in dis-qualifying those who cannot complete a stage as designed from the competitive standings. After all, they're not out there to win, just to practice, right?

[Grump]

Again, there should be some guidance available from the National group. Ignoring the handicapped is going to involve them in an ADA law-suit.

I doubt it. A private club running a competitive/recreational event open to the public does NOT implicate all the so-called public policy issues of running a hotel or restaurant or even an ordinary furniture store.

Being NOT a "professional" event where people are trying to make a living, I also don't see any ADA implications related to the very real "right to earn a living" in any IDPA event ever, or even local-club IPSC events. It's not quite like the PGA with "reasonable accommodations" being required.

I know that I would never press an ADA claim for such boorish behavior by people running an IDPA event, no matter how motivated or willing to foolishly spend money the client might be.

[Don Gwinn]

Help me out here. The stage requires that you move from one box into another, and they specify that you must step? This guy moved from one box to another, but because no one had the brains to consider his short roll a "step," he got a procedural, and the OP doesn't think that's fair?

Well, you could argue that he's making too big a deal out of it--I guess--but explain where he's wrong, please? For one thing, why the strictness on the word "step?" Are they afraid you might skip?

[Don Gwinn]

All that said, it sounds like this guy ran into a doofus RO, not the IDPA organization as a whole.

[32winspl]

Sorry guys. If you remember a few years ago, there was a big "problem" in the Men's PGA (pro-golf) because a man wasn't physically able to walk the full 18 hole course. The guy called "unfair" because by rule, he wasn't able to ride to the tees in a golf cart. Well, by rule, competitors had to WALK.... when all settled, the rule remained.
Now, all our shooting games are just that.... games. In those designed to simulate "real- life", if you can't walk or run to the next stage, well, you can't. If you're wheelchair bound, you just may be unable to make the moves that an unencumbered shooter may be able to make that might put himself in the best position to survive a shooting.
Just how does any shooting organization make life fair? Maybe the term "handicapped" is the wrong term, but how do you make "even" the disparity between a person in a wheelchair and a person capable of running like the wind? And even if you can, so what. The person capable of climbing fences and shooting accurately versus the person that can't is just life.
So you join the shooting games. Why should the afflicted be given points for not being to do what is required?
Wanna even things up in the game? Add a wheelchair for the able.
Other than that, if you can't do the stage, and you know what's required, accept the points-loss.
Hell, it's just a game.
Real life has it's own requirements for all involved.

[JoeSlomo]

All that said, it sounds like this guy ran into a doofus RO, not the IDPA organization as a whole.

Exactly.

A course of fire can be adjusted to both meet the needs of, and challenge, a shooter in a wheel chair.

We have a gentlemen with 82 years under his belt that shoots with our club. We assist him while he moves from point to point and we DON'T penalize him for things he can NOT physically do.

[Tim Burke]

we DON'T penalize him for things he can NOT physically do.Makes sense to me, since, after all, it's just a game.
As for the PGA, it isn't just a game.
The shooting sports at the higher levels may not be just a game, either. When there is a wheelchair bound IDPA shooter who regularly places with the master class shooters, I'll reconsider. For now, I'll use the refrain "it's just a game" as a reason not to add insult to injury, rather than as an excuse to do so.

[Eric F]

Help me out here. The stage requires that you move from one box into another, and they specify that you must step? This guy moved from one box to another, but because no one had the brains to consider his short roll a "step," he got a procedural, and the OP doesn't think that's fair?

It was a physical box made of flat 2x4 sides a 1x1 across the back and the front was a baracade"door" to shoot around. The wheel chair cound not roll over the boards into the box. He weeled behind the box shot and rolled on.

[Grump]

Eric, assuming that it was not possible to wheel in over the 1xwhatever in the back, lean around to engage the targets, then back out and move to the next

STUPID

shooting box to repeat the nonsense, I hereby conclude that the match RO has committed a "failure to do right" by giving the shooter a 5-second procedural for shooting from where he could see and engage the target(s).

As described, you have a requirement for a wheelchair-bound shooter to go to a place where, in real life, he would NEVER go.

Sounds like absolutely NO advantage to the shooter, either--he had to engage from farther away than everyone else.

How was the next

STUPID

shooting box configured?

Can anyone here say "trip hazard"? If even ONE person has stumbled over those 2x4s in the past, your club would appear to be "on notice" of a potential problem.

I've heard from some IPSC shooters that steel squares 36 inches on a side made out of 1/4-inch rod were often used years ago, SO LONG AS THE GROUND OR GRAVEL OR CONCRETE would not allow the thing to pop up when stepped on, for pretty obvious reasons.

[Eric F]

The box thing was more for suport of the prop than just a "box" Any way there is a match this week and I think things will be a bit diffrent. I have been working with the "director" some and they have aproached the handicaped person about some options. Some things for this club will be un avoidable and in these cases no penalities will be handed out for making shots from a other than perscribed position.

All in all this is just for the better of the club, other things have slowly been getting out of hand and things have really tightened up. I would like to again thank every one for their constructive ideas and opinions. This forum has really helped out.

[degoodman]

90% or more of the proceedurals out there are the fault of the course designer. Period.

If we accept as our premise that the purpose of IDPA is to simulate, within the context and rules of the game, defensive shooting scenarios, then a shooter who finds a more efficient way to shoot the scenario without violating the other rules of the game, shooting targets in "tactical order" as they're presented to the shooter, properly using cover and movement in defensive contexts, etc, should be rewarded for his innovation, not penalized for the designer failing to account for his solution.

If a CoF designer wishes to force a scenario to be shot in a particular way, he should do so utilizing the layout of the course, not be mandating a particular proceedure for the shoot. Black Poly plastic sheeting is cheap, so are 2x4's in the relative scheme of things. If you want to prevent a shooter shooting around cover to one side or the other, put a plastic "wall" there so he can't. Don't penalize him for shooting over the trash barrel because he shot over it instead of around it. If a shooter cannot get into some kind of funny position, proned out, through a cat door, or whatever, you should probably remove the target from his possible score, because in real life that target probably didn't represent a threat to him that justified shooting in the first place.

I can think of a very specific example of this, albeit from a different discipline. Does anyone remember the episode of shooting sports USA where they were shooting 3 gun? They had a stage where the shooter had to carry an ammo can from point A to point B as part of the stage. The problem was that the can had to be carried "suitcase style" with a straight arm or you took a proceedural. This was a mistake by the course designer. if he wanted to mandate that type of carry, he should have made the box sfficiently large that you had to carry it that low, or sufficiently heavy that you couldn't raise it up to move, because otherwise, if you were carrying a box that size from point A to point B, you'd have carried it up high because that's the right way to do it.

If a shooter violates the course of fire by shooting through "cover" or without using cover or movement as proscribed, then yea, hit him with the proceedural. But if a shooter finds an innovative way to shoot the scenario that doesn't violate the general shooting rules and principals of IDPA, then that should be considered a valid solution to the shooting problem at hand and you go with it.

[Navy joe]

There you go sounding like a USPSA guy and making sense. Solving the problem, what a novel idea. I think if folks would shoot more and whine less(see below) life would be more funner. I care about one penalty only, that's a DQ, the rest are just my way of letting you folks catch up. :neener:

[mgregg85]

Sounds rather inconsiderate to give him a 'procedural' even though he cannot possibly comply.

Seems to me that decent individuals would at least try to help the guy out and be more understanding. I would say this was low road of the guys who knocked him.

[Feanaro]

The CoF rules already require that stages be designed with "senior and mobility challenged shooters" in mind. Page 12, rule 5. (though the most interesting stages I ever shot probably violated 5 or 10 of those rules, non-sanctioned matches of course)

Is IDPA a game or a simulation? Games require a level playing field. If a handicapped person can't complete a course of fire without penalties, that isn't level. Handicapped shooters shouldn't be exempted from these penalties, the CoF should be designed with them in mind. (Which is easier said than done)

If IDPA is a simulation, level playing fields are neither desirable nor in the proper spirit. If a handicapped shooter can't complete the CoF as described, that's a lesson learned. We all have real limitations, something that shouldn't be ignored. Conversely, penalties shouldn't be assessed for not doing it the designer's way, 'long as they shoot the stage in a realistic manner, tactical order is followed, etc.

Of course, IDPA is really a combination of the two but it leans towards the simulation edge, IMO. With that in mind, I don't think stages that tax older or mobility challenged shooters are inappropriate, now and again. All of us need to be taxed. When I get time, I shoot SSR. I don't like "revolver friendly" stages. You can't learn anything if your limitations are never reached.

[Jim Watson]

One criterion would be, can the shooter in question complete the IDPA Classifier ?

This is the one and only official and universal CoF, required annually for all members, and strictly choreographed with Limited Vickers scoring. There is no opportunity to "solve the problem", there is no flexibility in layout or procedure, you just have to do it. I would not make accomodations that would give somebody a higher classification than his abilities warranted.

[30 cal slob]

I don't want to dump somebody out of a wheelchair for a match stage.

I can only speak for myself.

If it were me...

For TRAINING purposes, I'd want somebody to dump me out of a wheelchair. As brutally and realistically as possible (w/o breaking the law).

[Jim Watson]

Which is why I made the distinction of a MATCH stage.

You can elect to take training as rugged as you like. I have read of gunfighting academies that were more dangerous than I would want to be around, but it's your money and liablility waiver.

But you cannot treat people like that in a recreational setting.

[Sunray]

"...for "normal" people..." No offense, but you're the one that's saying your cousin isn't normal. I'd bet he had a great deal of fun just shooting because it's fun. In any case, IDPA is a shooting game and nothing more. There's no point whining about a game course of fire.
Have your cousin put together a course of fire for wheelchair bound shooters. Him, not you. That'd be something I'd bet would catch on too.