How is a supressor on an air rifle not a class 3 device


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Eric F
August 20, 2008, 09:27 PM
http://www.gamousa.com//Catalog.aspx?Product=234

It is a built in supressor, so how do you not need a $200 stamp?

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kingpin008
August 20, 2008, 09:29 PM
Because an air gun isn't a firearm.

rondog
August 20, 2008, 09:31 PM
Does that mean that if a person had one of those high-dollar .45 cal. hunting air rifles, you could buy a legal supressor for it?

Eric F
August 20, 2008, 09:32 PM
Because an air gun isn't a firearm. So I can thread an air rifle barrel and get say a gem tech for it and not have to pay for the stamp?

Jim Watson
August 20, 2008, 09:35 PM
I suspect they got the air rifle past the feds because the silencer is integral with the barrel. They would not be amused if you said you were buying a conventional can to put on a pellet gun.

Maelstrom
August 20, 2008, 10:20 PM
They would be amused, however, if you cut that can off of the air rifle and put it on a .22.

They'd laugh all the way to jail.

Ohen Cepel
August 20, 2008, 10:25 PM
It comes on the rifle and can't be taken off.

You can't buy one from Gem-Tech and get exempted from the $200 stamp since it's made for a firearm.

Now, you could still put it on a .22 air gun if that made your day.

As for putting one on a .45 air rifle you could do it (after you pay the $200 stamp since you're buying a firearm suppressor). However, couldn't hunt with it in most states and I'm honestly not sure it would work so well since they are designed to suppress a different type of blast from a different source, not sure about that.

IIRC suppressors are class II, not III.

These things aren't made to make sense, the ATF/Gov't wrote the rules:cuss:

PTK
August 20, 2008, 10:28 PM
The reason those are legal is that they never asked the BATFE and thus far there hasn't been a problem. Technically, since they can be removed (hacksaw) and "readily attached or adapted to" a firearm they ARE silencers under the 1934NFA.

Clear as mud, yes?

Eric F
August 20, 2008, 10:32 PM
I suspect they got the air rifle past the feds because the silencer is integral with the barrel. It comes on the rifle and can't be taken off.I know this is incorrect as I have a friend that has a can welded on an ar still had to pay the $200 stamp.Because an air gun isn't a firearm.seems to be the right answer here from what I just saw on a diffrent forum.

Seancass
August 20, 2008, 11:09 PM
I know this is incorrect as I have a friend that has a can welded on an ar still had to pay the $200 stamp

but that is a Firearm, which an airgun is not. seems the same might apply to a BP gun?

man these laws are stupid.

Wes Janson
August 20, 2008, 11:11 PM
IIRC suppressors are class II, not III.

Those who know more than I do, feel free to correct me...

"Class III" is a misnomer; they're all NFA items (or Title 2). "Class II" would be a Class II Special Occupation Taxpayer (SOT) FFL license (manufacturer of Title II firearms).

I don't have a link, but I do strongly recall Small Arms Review printing a news blurb a couple years ago regarding an ATF ruling that an integral paintball silencer (ie permanently welded on) is not considered to be an NFA weapon.

kingjoey
August 20, 2008, 11:26 PM
The ATF ruled that airgun and paintball gun silencers are regulated. I'm guessing that the only reason this one slides by is that it is a permanent part of the barrel.

TexasRifleman
August 20, 2008, 11:42 PM
. Technically, since they can be removed (hacksaw) and "readily attached or adapted to" a firearm they ARE silencers under the 1934NFA.

The ATF ruled that airgun and paintball gun silencers are regulated. I'm guessing that the only reason this one slides by is that it is a permanent part of the barrel.

Suppressors/silencers are regulated when they reduce the noise level of a firearm.

I guarantee you if you put this piece of crap from this Gamo air rifle I bought my kid on a real gun it would silence nothing.

It's a joke......

TehK1w1
August 21, 2008, 12:27 AM
TY Kingjoey. I've seen people show up at paintball feilds with homemade silencers before-one guy got really mad when the club president refused to allow him to use it on the field.

PTK
August 21, 2008, 12:33 AM
TexasRifleman

If it reduces the sound by 1 db for 1 shot, it's a silencer. If it was even intended to reduce the sound at all, it's a silencer. It doesn't matter if it holds up or not - a soda bottle packed with toilet paper is still a silencer, too. :)

BigBlock
August 21, 2008, 03:39 AM
It is this simple: The ATF has absolutely ZERO authority over air powered "guns" of any sort. Their definition of a firearm includes something about powder burning. A silencer on an air gun would be no different than a homemade silencer for your own farts....

PTK
August 21, 2008, 03:41 AM
BigBlock

UNLESS it can be adapted or modified to reduce the report of a firearm by even 1 db for even 1 shot.

sanglant
August 21, 2008, 04:05 AM
a depressing link (http://www.beemans.net/silencers_on_airguns.htm) :uhoh:

PTK
August 21, 2008, 04:08 AM
Everyone saying that integral silencers are legal on airguns/paintball guns should REALLY read that link.

Diggers
August 21, 2008, 04:42 AM
Lots of info in that link. Quick glance at it and saw that bit on integrated silencers on air guns.

IMO how they got around this issue is this.

Air guns are not regulated by the ATF, AND the silencer is NOT a separate part of the air gun. The silencer IS the barrel of the gun AND to prove that they even put the iron sight on it.

Thus, there is no silencer on that gun; they just designed a barrel that makes for a quieter air gun.

Also if someone was dumb enough to cut it off and some how attach it to a real firearm it would most likely be blown to pieces and not silence anything.

A potato would work better. :neener:

I also question where the author of that artical is coming from AND if he really has his facts straight. (I'm thinking he does not seeing that the Whisper is now for sale.)

He seems the take the "Tuck your tail between your legs and run" point of view to all this, makes me wonder.

Eric F
August 21, 2008, 06:50 AM
a depressing link As noted above who is this guy and he never really sites any real laws. Bottom line gamo has had these things for some time my guess is also that BATF knows about them, I further guess they would have done something if it were not legal.

Phil DeGraves
August 21, 2008, 08:59 AM
Since when do air rifles and paintball guns need to be silenced?

News Shooter
August 21, 2008, 09:08 AM
If you've ever heard a Gamo go off, you would understand. It's very loud

Phil DeGraves
August 21, 2008, 09:14 AM
If you've ever heard a Gamo go off, you would understand. It's very loud

Thanks!

Drgong
August 21, 2008, 09:26 AM
Does that mean if you built a blackpowder weapon with a suppressor it would be kosher as well?

( of course, after two firings you would have to clean that sucker out good)

PTK
August 21, 2008, 09:30 AM
Again, right on the BATFE website, there is documentation on this issue.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#m30


Numerous paintball and airgun silencers tested by ATF’s Firearms Technology Branch have been determined to be, by nature of their design and function, firearm silencers. Because silencers are NFA weapons, an individual wishing to manufacture or transfer such a silencer must receive prior approval from ATF and pay the required tax.

If it can silence a paintball gun, airgun, or BP gun, IT'S A SILENCER.

dogmush
August 21, 2008, 09:42 AM
One day, I would like to have the money to take the ATF to court over this.

Based on their wide net, anything that has an internal volume greater then the internal volume of your weapons barrel. I think a $200 tax for a 2-liter bottle of soda would be unaccaptable to most folks.

The BATFE really needs some kind of logical oversite on their rulings.

Happiness Is A Warm Gun
August 21, 2008, 10:27 AM
If it can silence a paintball gun, or airgun, it may be a firearm silencer.

Corrected for you. The quote states it MAY be a silencer, not that ALL airgun silencers are FIREARM silencers . Likely in this case they determined it is NOT because it can't be readily removed from the gun.

It isn't removable. It isn't even attached to the end of the barrel. It literally is the barrel of the airgun.

PTK
August 21, 2008, 10:33 AM
The BATFE has not yet found any sound reducing device for a modern projectile weapon anything but a silencer.

Anything any of you do, be ready to face serious consequences if caught with an illegal silencer.

Happiness Is A Warm Gun
August 21, 2008, 11:12 AM
Anything any of you do, be ready to face serious consequences if caught with an illegal silencer.

Aren't charges & fines for selling "illegal silencers" equally stiff.

I originally saw this model in 2006. It has been discussed online since early 2007. Gamo isn't even hiding it. Not only does their website mention it but every store website mentions it also. The physical box mentions it. The air rifle is sold at some of the largest chains in the US. Don't you think by now BATFE would have raided Gamo fined them thousands of dollars per violation (easily could be hundreds of millions by now), arrested CEO and other officers, shut down the company? Not only that gone after the distributors, and the retail locations for illegal trafficking in uncontrolled class III items? If Gamo, Wallmart, Midway USA, Sportman's Guide, and litterally hundreds of other stores don't think it is a liability I think it is safe to say it isn't illegal. Often stores will drop products even on the chance it could cause liability issues. If the lawyers thought there was even the slightest risk of a raid by BATFE they simply wouldn't sell it.

For someone in the BATFE looking for a promotion wouldn't "stopping the sales of thousands of silencers from falling into the hands of terrorists" be a nice bullet on their resume?

Strangely it hasn't happened.
Gamo is still open for business. Hundreds of stores are selling the air rifle.
Likely tens of thousands have been bought ever year for last 2 years.

Sometimes the sky isn't falling.

jackstinson
August 21, 2008, 11:48 AM
Gamo isn't even hiding it. Don't you think by now BATFE would have raided Gamo fined them thousands of dollars per violation
Heck, this is old news. GAMO is a very late-comer to the scene of air guns with silencers. The PCP (Pre-Charged Pneumatic) guns have been sold with silencers for years. Look into Career, Sumatra, Talon, Logun, etc and see the huge variety of air rifles available with integral and detachable silencers. A quick trip to Pyramyd Air's rifle section should suffice for a perspective: http://www.pyramydair.com
All can be purchased online and shipped in the mail or UPS (except a couple of states). Many of these guns develop 30+ fpe and when suppressed properly, all you hear is the valve pin click as you pull the trigger.
BTW- Most springer guns like GAMO sells don't make much of a sound at all once they are properly broken-in. Most of the noise you hear originally is over-lubrication dieseling upon compression. Once broken-in, a springer makes sort of a soft "sproing" sound. PCP's bark loudly though, unless suppressed.
I shot suppressed PCP guns a lot until I realized Super Colibri's and CB's would give me similar low/no noise with far less expensive and more versatile guns. My last PCP rig set me back over $1000....just to shoot .22 pellets out to 35 yards.
Jack

jason10mm
August 21, 2008, 12:39 PM
Out of curiosity, can folks safely hunt deer and bobcats with a Gamo? In their commercial they show a lot of game taking that seems to be pretty incredible from an air rifle. Maybe I'm ignorant on this level of air rifle. I take it a gamo is a bit too much for backyard plinking in a suburb?

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