[Dave P]

... when ya got tomatoes:

**********

Tomato-Throwing Man Shot To Death
Police Say 10 People Were Throwing Tomatoes At Cars

POSTED: 5:22 p.m. EDT September 2, 2003

MILLERSBURG, Ohio -- The Holmes County Sheriff's Office said someone fatally shot a man for throwing tomatoes at his car.

Steven Keim, 23, was hit with several shotgun blasts about 11:30 p.m. Monday. The man, from Apple Creek in neighboring Wayne County, was declared dead at a hospital early this morning.

Authorities said about 10 people ages 15 to 23 were throwing tomatoes and firing paintball guns at passing cars from a corn field on state Route 241 near Mount Hope.

Members of the group told deputies that the driver of a luxury car stopped when a tomato hit it and threatened that he would shoot if it happened again. The driver then turned around, passed the group and was struck again with tomatoes.

Deputies said the car returned about a half hour later, and the driver got out with a shotgun and started shooting.

***************
I imagine we won't see the shooter again for a long time!

[jsalcedo]

I'ts really hard for me to feel sorry for "young adults" who fire paintball guns at unsuspecting victims. The tomato throwing is vandalism.

Did the person deserve to die?

Maybe..maybe not. He was at least given once chance to live.

If I was warned to stop vandalizing and firing a paintball gun in an unsafe manner under threat of being shot by a real gun... you bet I'd quit.

This incident falls under the Darwin catagory.

[OF]

Uhhhh, I beg to differ...this falls under the 'premeditated murder' category. I don't care how badly they 'vandalized' your car, you don't get to kill people over it. Period.

Was it stupid? Yes. Do you get to kill people for being stupid? No. I sincerely hope the shooter gets to spend the rest of his life in prison.

- Gabe

[jsalcedo]

GRD:

What if someone was driving with their window open and got smacked in the side of the head with a paintball going 300+FPS?

What if a Tomato totally obscured the windshield of a car and caused
a motorist to wreck possibly killing someone?

These vandals were engaging in potentially deadly behavior and were given a chance to stop.

If a cop was being attacked with paintball guns do you think he would use deadly force if the attackers failed to heed his warnings?

[TallPine]

We need more tomato control laws

Do you know that you can just walk into a store and buy them without even a background check?

You can thank the powerful NTA (National Tomato Association) for that :rolleyes:

Do it for the children!

[Ridgeway]

As the driver of what I consider to be a rather nice car that I take extreme pride in- I can certainly understand the driver's reaction. Though, IMO he should have immediatly notifed the police to have them arrested instead of going home for a shotgun.
The shooter will definitly be spending alot of time in prison, but I do hope that the "kids" get their fair share of punishment!
I would personally really hate to be cruising down the road in my roadster w/the top down and get pelted with paintballs potentially going well over 300 FPS and also being shot @ a rate of 20 per/sec...

[OF]

Deadly force for being attacked by a tomato. You have got to be kidding.What if a Tomato totally obscured the windshield of a car and caused a motorist to wreck possibly killing someone?What if a pretty woman was flashing passer-by on the side of the road, would you go home get your shotgun and kill her for it? I am having a hard time taking you seriously on this.If a cop was being attacked with paintball guns do you think he would use deadly force if the attackers failed to heed his warnings?Uhhhh...no. Deadly force is absolutely NOT justified to stop people from shooting paintballs at you. The fact that you think it is is cause for some concern, actually.

The guy in the incident told the kids to stop throwing fruit and paintballs at cars, drove home and got his gun, came back and murdered one of them. Somehow you think this is acceptable behavior. In this country we lock people up for murder, some of them we even kill.

If you carry a gun, or even own a gun, you should spend some serious time looking into deadly force laws as your current understanding is a little...disconcerting.

- Gabe

[longtom4570]

Were do i sign up for the NTA:evil: and do the allow for concealed carry:D

[OF]

I can certainly understand the driver's reaction.What?! Getting mad I can understand. Getting foaming mad, I can understand. Yelling and screaming I can understand. Grabbing one of the little ingrates by his ear and yelling I can understand. Calling the cops I can understand.Going home, getting a shotgun, returning to the scene and MURDERING SOMEONE I absolutely cannot understand. It is sad. Beyond sad, it's disgusting.

May he rot in hell.

- Gabe

[Destructo6]

I certainly wouldn't say that the driver's final reaction, that is premeditated murder, was in any way warranted in that situation.

However, the tomato tossers (in every definition of the word) opened the can of worms on their own volition and deserve little sympathy.

[synoptic]

Uhhhh...no. Deadly force is absolutely NOT justified to stop people from shooting paintballs at you. The fact that you think it is is cause for some concern, actually.

Actually, paintballs can cause "Grave bodily harm" and if they are shooting them at you then the threat is imminent and you can shoot back. In fact, in Texas you are even allowed to respond to a punch with deadly force because the punch could be aimed at your throat, eye socket, etc... The same would apply to a paintball. But, that wasn't quite the situation here. His car was hit with a tomato, he left the scene, when he returned he was the aggressor. He should have called the cops and let them handle this. He gives us a bad name and gives the liberals more ammo against us. Hope he gets punished.

[spacemanspiff]

DEMISE in the other closed dupe thread said:
...may have killed someone whose only "crime" was being there.
i'd be willing to bet that if law enforcement had come upon the tomato throwers and paintball shooters they would have charged them with perhaps 'disturbing the peace' or 'wreckless endangerment'.

[Sportcat]

Can we merge this with the other "tomato/shooter" thread, please?

[OF]

If paintballs and tomatoes constitute 'grave bodily harm' then I'm the pope. Are we that wussified that getting a tomato splatted on your car is grounds for opening fire? Or even, as some here seem to be able to 'understand' (because they have a nice car, or think that 23 year olds are too old for this kind of nonsense), going home, getting your shotgun and then killing people? I'm stunned.

This guy deserves to hang.

- Gabe

[13xx]

what i dont understand is if he was so content on shooting his gun why didnt he just shoot it up in the air or in the ground and try and scare them off rather than open fire on them.

[uglymofo]

This guy deserves to hang.

I'll agree with that. But one thing's for sure, there's about nine other guys from that field that'll never tomato another car, and probably none of their future kids will either.

Hey, if you're gonna be stupid, ya gotta be tough.

[outfieldjack]

Going home and getting a shotgun was wrong.

HOWEVER.... If I am out with my family and someone starts shooting at us with a paintball gun..... your Dang right I am going to take cover and return fire. My brother (Sportcat) and I have been paintball fighting MANY times..... ever wonder WHY they require you to wear a face guard, helmet, etc.... because they are DANGEROUS!

Why do we always say the "response" was wrong when the ORIGINAL action was wrong as well?!?!?! Two wrongs don't make a rigth.... But when you "ambush" cars with tomatos and paintball guns you should expect the worst..... unfortunatly for the "childern of the corn" it happened.

[Daniel T]

i'd be willing to bet that if law enforcement had come upon the tomato throwers and paintball shooters they would have charged them with perhaps 'disturbing the peace' or 'wreckless endangerment'.

I'd be willing to bet that as well. I'd also be willing to bet that punishment for those offenses doesn't get you strapped to a gurney and IVs stuck in your arm.

If the standard for "grave bodily harm" is that there could be an off chance of getting an eye put out, then there would probably be a lot of targets. Hey, does that guy over there have a baseball? It could possibly fracture your skull. Get shooting, killer.

[Sportcat]

I agree... guy shouldn't have shot for tomatos, but being pelted with paintballs will get you shot.

You might blind me, but you'll be plant food.

[spacemanspiff]

the tomato throwers and paintball shooters WERE in fact commiting crimes, and they were endangering the safety of those they were pranking. if there was a driver like my mother she'd likely swerve off the road and into a ditch, possibly being killed in the crash. or worse yet, swerve into another vehicle.

yeah, thats the product of 'kids just having fun'.
maybe i wouldnt open fire if i knew it was just rotten tomatos and paintballs. but you can be damn sure i'd deliver a filled to the brim can of whoopass.

the amish arent supposed to fight back, right?

[Sportcat]

the amish arent supposed to fight back, right?

Wonder if they're related to the French? :D

[Dionysusigma]

Aren't the Amish German?

Hell, if I came under attack like that, what's the first thing to do? ASESS THE SITUATION. ONLY if they are actually using real guns, use yours. If it is just tomatoes and paintballs, head to Wal-Mart, get yourself a painball gun (if you don't have one already) and pop them back. Throw a few tomatoes of your own. If you've got a Class 3, use flashbangs :D

Honestly, though. Call the police. There are times for self-defense and times to let the LEO's do their job.

[Daniel T]

You might blind me, but you'll be plant food.

And you'll be Bubba's pretty little plaything when you go to jail for murder.

[Sportcat]

So I'm not allowed to defend myself against someone who is intentionally shooting me with a device which is known to maim and severly injure people?

I'm going do whatever it takes to protect myself and my family. If that means retreat, Iwill. If that means taking someone's life, I will!

I'll take my chances in the courts.

[Vitamin G]

I frequent both the Paintball and Firearms message boards. I've been an avid paintball player since 1996. I've been competing in paintball tournaments since 1998.

If you think a paintball flying at 300fps (the LEGAL limit for competition) cannot do serious bodily harm, you're wrong.

Keep in mind that 300fps is the LEGAL limit for paintballs in competitions. Most paintball guns rely on springs to achieve the force of hitting the valve to allow gas to go through the gun, to launch the paintball. Some guns can hit up to 400fps. Most of them can be found at Wal-Mart, K-mart, and the like.

IN ADDITION to this, bear in mind that paintballers usually wear multiple layers of clothing, and facemasks to protect their eyes.

As if this wasn't enough... What if I told you that my electropneumatic paintball gun was EASILY capable of firing upwards of 15+ balls PER SECOND with very good accuracy up to about 35-40 yards.... AND my paintball gun can hold 200 balls before i'd have to reload. Oh, and "reloading" it takes about 3 seconds. Its the equivalent to opening some tupperwear, dumping something in, and closing it. If you're good, you can reload WHILE shooting, and never miss a beat.

We've all heard the stories about some little girl who lost her eye when she was shot in a paintball drive by. That was ONE paintball from a $100 gun from wal-mart. I can't say for sure, but its a good certainty that it was probably traveling between 290 and 320fps. Thats about as fast as that particular gun can shoot without splitting the balls open.

Imagine being shot by even FIVE of them per second....

Me personally? I'd throw my left hand over my eyes, spread my fingers far enough to see, and return fire. I personally feel (and would risk) that a jury or judge would be convinced.

If anyone likes.... I can probably rummage through the hard drive for some welts I got from tournaments from LEGAL speed limits, with 2 layers of clothing on.
Edit... Found it... 300fps at about 5 foot range. Its what they call "Bunkering"
http://pbnation.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=523514

[Atticus]

I agree with GRD. Boys will be boys (even at 23 year old). Throwing stuff at cars was stupid in the first degree, and they should have been dealt with by the police....or their Fathers (who more than likely woulda delivered a big can a wup a...) on them. It's not like a bunch of gangbangers had the guy cornered. He had many other options. This is nearly as sick as the guy who got shot a couple of weeks ago (while walking his three year old to school) for yelling at a driver to slow down. I've had similar things happen to me in the past, and have chased more than one kid down to give him a brief lesson in manners (verbally). What the hell is wrong with people? You don't kill young people for doing stupid things. If you did, there would be no old people. The anti-CCW folks here in Ohio will love this one.

[Andrew Rothman]

If paintballs and tomatoes constitute 'grave bodily harm' then I'm the pope.

Well, Your Holiness, tomatoes are pretty harmless, but paint balls are not.

This guy, who went home, got his shotgun, and came back, is clearly in the wrong, but in some circumstances (like the Pittsburgh paintball shooting), being shot at with paint balls DOES pose an imminent danger of GBH.

Matt

[OF]

The Pittsburgh 'paintball drive by' did NOT pose a threat of grave bodily harm, not at least as how I define it. In that incident I could only see shooting back if you were unaware of what it was that they were shooting at you.

[Keeper]

I hope that who ever did it is caught and sent away because they are a threat to society. That being said, doing what they were doing is not a whole lot different than going around picking fights. Eventually you are going to F around with the wrong person and pay for it in spades. I do not believe the guy deserved to die but it sounds like it was only a matter of time before they hurt someone or someone hurt them.

[outfieldjack]

You are entiltled to your opinion.... Have you ever been involved with paintballs? Myself (and a number of previous members who have posted here) have.....

Being struck with a paintball is DANGEROUS. Its up to you. IF someone shoots at you out in the open, what are you going to do? They have a range of up to 50 yards..... If there is no cover and you are with your family I would hope you do what was needed to defend them.... Well, at leat I would defend my family.

[OF]

Yes, I've played paintball. I even have a gun myself. I've been hit in the head w/o protection and had all the welts and everything. We must have very different opinions of what constitutes 'dangerous'.

Just to be sure: if you were standing in a field and someone started hitting you with paintballs, your reaction would be to kill them. Is that right?

- Gabe

[spacemanspiff]

people have been blinded and deafened from being hit with a paintball, yet you dont think thats 'dangerous'? :rolleyes:

[jsalcedo]

Yes, I've played paintball. I even have a gun myself. I've been hit in the head w/o protection....

Just maybe.. you aren't helping your position with that tidbit. ;)

[OF]

OK, 'dangerous'? maybe...depends on your definition. More like 'risky' in my book. Deserving of a lethal response?

Nope.

- Gabe

[Penforhire]

Hey Vitamin G, you must have a force-feeder to get 15 balls per second, based on gravity acceleration and the diameter of the balls. Gravity feed isn't so reliable above 12 bps.

I owned a paintball field (indoor & outdoor) in the late 1980's and worked on early designs for semiauto conversion of pump Sheridan PGP's. If you like the current Autococker designs, say hey to me & Glenn Palmer (and Bud Orr of course).

Anyway, I view being shot with a paintball marker in the same category as a fist fight, or someone throwing small rocks at me. If that means lethal force then have at it, but unless the balls are frozen and the velocity is pumped up (hard to get lots of high velocity shots with CO2 due to Joule-Thomson cooling, easier with compressed air or nitrogen), and the distance is close, no way am I responding with gun fire. Yes, 300 FPS is fast enough to put out an eye or produce a bleeding welt at point blank range.

Might be a different story if someone got up close to me, aimed at my unprotected head, and dumped a full-auto load at me. But for shooting my car? All that's called for is a heads-up to the cops or an @ss-whipping, depending on mood and maturity.

[spacemanspiff]

suppose you have the windows rolled down and a paintball that should have just hit the body of your car has impacted upon your head. or do you think the pranksters were sitting there saying 'no wait, dont shoot, we might hurt someone, wait for the next car that has its windows rolled up'?

or you have your family in your car and your child has a window rolled down, it hits him/her in the head, knocks him/her out. still not 'dangerous'?

[outfieldjack]

I never said I'd "kill" someone if they were shooting at me or my family with a paintball gun. I said I'd DEFEND myself with whatever means necessary. Especially if I was with my wife or our soon-to-be daughter. What do you think a paintball would do to a NEW BORN BABY?!?!?!?!

A paintball can be lethal..... what if one exploded my eye out, what if I was yawning and it tore a hole in my windpipe, etc......

I'm not saying people who shoot at people with paintball guns need to be killed, but thay sure as heck better be prepared for someone like me who is going to take WHATEVER means necessary to protect himself and family. If that mean RETURNING fire, then so be it.

You don't seem to understand that FACT that someone has already DECIDED to put YOU in thier CROSSHAIRS and pull the TRIGGER. When they make that decision, they BETTER be prepared for the consequences.....

[Daniel T]

A paintball can be lethal..... what if one exploded my eye out, what if I was yawning and it tore a hole in my windpipe, etc......

Now that's some rationalization on the level I'd expect from antis. Exploded your eye out? Paintballs are loaded with paint, not HE. Maybe you could supply an example of a paintball tearing a hole in someone's windpipe? Or killing somone at all? More people have been seriously injured by the CO2 cans on paintball guns than the paintballs themselves, so I don't think you're going to have any kind of luck.

[outfieldjack]

My point is this..... if I am being "shot at" and cannot take cover, I will return fire.

[CPS1]

Outfldjck, and your lovely brother who is apparently coming over to my house to steal my tv and splatter my non existant wife and child (see other paintball thread), I wonder if you realize how detrimental and attitude such as yours is to the RTKBA? You are advocating shooting someone for attacking you with paintballs (estentially a non lethal weapon). I wonder what a moderate would say if he saw this thread. He/she would think the members of this forum (who are generally a pretty sane lot) are "gun nuts" in the most stereotypical sense, i.e. we are actively looking for an excuse to shoot other human beings. I believe strongly in self defense. I believe there is a time and a place for shooting at someone. But that time and place needs to be very clearly defined. For instance what about fist fights? I've fought some men that were sure of a lot more dangerous than an tippmann (paintball MARKER for those in the know). Do I have the right to shoot them? No, I have the right to punch them in the face, i.e. a proportionate response. It is irresponsible (and frickin illegal) to blow someones head off with a shotgun for starting a fistfight. The same goes for paintball MARKERS. Advocating a lethal response for such acts makes us (gunowners) look like we are actively pursuing an escalation of confrontation to the general public, not an image we want. One last thing: paintballs WILL take your eye out. They will not rip out your throat. They will not maim you. Unless you get hit in the eye you will pretty much be okay. How do I know this? Because I play. I have been shot at close range. I have been shot at close range (~3 ft) in the throat. I have been shot at close range in the throat multiple times by an automag RT (RT's are one of the nasty ones previously mentioned that spit out 10+ sec) It hurt. A LOT. But I am still here. My throat is the same as it was. And I didn't resort to slaughtering the other team with buckshot.

[Keeper]

About the fist fight thing what about a 105 pound woman against a 220 pound man. Should she just take a severe beating safe in the knowledge that it would be wrong to shoot him? What about a stun gun? Really your chances of being killed by one are slim to none just take the juice and smile. My point is there are instances outside of the examples offered where lethal force is appropriate.

[mattd]

Shooting people(most likely,just stupid kids) just for paintballs would give gun owners a bad name. I was almost a victim of a paintball drive by while I was riding my Bike and they shot at my friend on the other side of the street and It does not sound like a gun shot we just rode away fast. And some times its best to run away and this is one of them. Besides, all it leaves is a little bruise and hurts. Cops use paintball guns on crowds, does that mean I get to whip out a M-16 and shoot the cop to protect the people in the crowd? I think not.

[OF]

What do you think a paintball would do to a NEW BORN BABY?!?!?!?!
Gee, I don't know, raise a welt maybe?You don't seem to understand that FACT that someone has already DECIDED to put YOU in thier CROSSHAIRS and pull the TRIGGER. When they make that decision, they BETTER be prepared for the consequences.....<through the bullhorn> "Put down the Soldier of Fortune and step away slowly. "

Remind me never to shoot at you with my rubber-band gun, jack. A paintball down your windpipe. :rolleyes:

This has gone beyond ridiculous to the truly odd...and it's racing towards insane.

- Gabe

[Powderman]

Thoughts to consider:

1. Is the threat REAL?

Sure, the paintballs are flying.

2. Does the threat place you in IMMINENT DANGER of DEATH or GRAVE BODILY INJURY?

Try convincing a jury on that one.

3. Is there any other action that you could have taken, other than taking a human life?

Whatever happened to just walking away? Or running away? Or driving away?

Yep, the paintballers would (in the State of Washington) be arrested and charged with: 1. Reckless endangerment, 2. Malicious mischief, 3. Assault 4th degree (for welts) Assault 3rd degree (for serious cuts) Aggravated Assault (if the paintballing put you in a position to seriously injure yourself or someone else).

However, if I come to a call and find you there standing above the body of a paintballer with a firearm, stating that you shot because he was throwing paintballs in your direction, I would place you under arrest, read you the Miranda warning, and charge you with Murder.

Do the math--it isn't hard to figure out.

If you carry a firearm and have the intent to shoot someone for paintballing you, do us all a favor. Sell your guns and move somewhere else. Your frame of mind is that you are looking for an excuse to shoot someone.

[Moparmike]

What do you think a paintball would do to a NEW BORN BABY?!?!?!?!Gee, I don't know, raise a welt maybe?GRD, something tells me you dont know much about newborns. If it hits the head or the heart, it could do serious brain damage (enough to kill) or hit the heart area, it could stop the heart. At the very least it would maim the baby much worse that you or me, even if it hit a foot. If it is endangering the baby or killing the baby, you are damned right I will respond with lethal force.

On newer cars, body damage could occur. Hell, on old cars if it hits hard enough. That is $500-$2000 worth of body damage right there. And the responses about the endangering motorists (and not just the ones they hit) are right on the money.

Shooting to kill wasnt necessary. A shot to the sky (with bird shot) would have been plenty.

[outfieldjack]

I do NOT advocate killing paintballers..... I only advocate protecting yourself.... The guy with the shotgun with which this thread was started was in the WRONG.

My POINT= If people (idiots) decide to attack me or my family with paintball guns (possibly lethal weapons, especially to a newborn) and I CANNOT retreat or take cover, then I will return fire IF the THREAT continues..... Hopefully 1-2 rounds will convince the attackers to retreat, I'm not looking to kill someone..... but I WILL PROTECT MY FAMILY!!!

Those of you who disagree have the right to disagree.... althogh none of you have provided me with what YOU would DO if you, your wife, and NEWBORN were being attacked with paintball guns and had nowhere to take cover.... :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Atticus]

"...althogh none of you have provided me with what YOU would DO if you, your wife, and NEWBORN were being attacked with paintball guns and had nowhere to take cover.... "

In that case (assuming we're on foot and the attack is sustained) then yes, I would shoot them. Not got much to do with the dead Amish kid tho.

[synoptic]

For instance what about fist fights? I've fought some men that were sure of a lot more dangerous than an tippmann (paintball MARKER for those in the know). Do I have the right to shoot them? No,

Actually, if you were in Texas, you do have the right to shoot (assuming you were not the aggressor and taking into account disparity of force and all)

One kid seizure prone ( several gran mal per year in the first few years) from a direct hit on the temple.

sounds pretty dangerous to me, definitely worth returning fire to keep something like this from happening.

Now, I'm guessing here that those of us who say we would shoot someone for attacking us with a paintball gun mean if the circumstances warranted such action. If a kid fires 2 or 3 times and misses, most of us would run. If he is consistently hitting me and there is no where to run, I'd return fire to stop the threat. If my kids (theoretical, no kids yet) were around and someone was firing wildly in our direction I'd return fire. If it's a friend playing a gag and pops me in the chest, I'd prolly kick his butt, but thats about it. I think you get the picture.

You are free to disagree, but please give us the same respect. In many cases, to return fire would not be against the law, at least not here in Texas, so please don't speak to us as if we were criminals looking for a fight.

[Sportcat]

synoptic,

Well said! :)


-Sportcat

[mattd]

If a pro paintball shooter would address my post about the police, I'd like that.

[synoptic]

Cops use paintball guns on crowds, does that mean I get to whip out a M-16 and shoot the cop to protect the people in the crowd?

no, that does not mean you can open up on the officer. They have training with the weapons, and more importantly, liability. I would not be in a crowd that was getting shot by the police with paintballs anyways I try to stay away from those situations. If you were getting shot by the cops with paintballs you have probably done something to be considered the aggressor and a self defense claim would not work.

If an officer tried to arrest you and place you in handcuffs would you try and fight him? no, you prolly wouldn't, but if some random stranger came up to you and tried to handcuff you would you fight back then? I'll bet you would.

Our reactions are all dependant on the situation at hand. I would hate to ever have to shoot anyone as would, I'm guessing, all of the pro shooters in this discussion, but depending on the situation returning fire may be necessary as I wouldn't want to go through the rest of my life with 1 eye or loss of hearing or be prone to siezures because some punk kid thought it would be funny to shoot me with paintballs.

[outfieldjack]

Ditto what synoptic said......

[jsalcedo]

I remember the famous video that some kids took of themselves
driving around at night with paintball guns shooting kids, knocking people off bikes, people carrying groceries home etc..

These people being shot were screaming in surprise and pain. It would seem that the uninitiated would think that a red paintball marker was their own blood.

With kids aty least a sharp blow to the chest at the right time can cause the heart to stop. It happens all the time.


What is the proper level of response?

Going home and getting a shotgun? Probably not.

Driving away and calling police? probably the most rational.

I'm wondering why the kids didn't run when they saw the car come back
and the guy get out with the shotgun.

I'm wonderig if he was just going to try to scare the kids off when they
started shooting him with paintballs at close range..

If the kids didn't run it makes me think they were a little more brazen than just innocent pranksters having fun.

[Penforhire]

I was unaware police have used paintball markers as crowd control devices. Anyone have a news reference link?

Most painful paintball shot I ever saw was at an indoor range. My buddy and I had one enemy trapped in a small room. After some fruitless blind exchanges I went in low and my buddy went high. Let's just say that guy wasn't wearing a cup and my COM shot was a little low (from about three feet away on the floor). For a while there I was worried he'd stop breathing...

[Vitamin G]

To the best of my knowledge, there are a few areas that have pepperspray-filled paintballs for use in breaking up hostile groups. Last I ever saw. they were firing them from Tippmann Pro-Lites.

[synoptic]

I was unaware police have used paintball markers as crowd control devices. Anyone have a news reference link?

Sorry, no link, I saw it on a discovery channel special. It showed how they would use the pepper filled paintballs to fire on an aggressor then when he was subdued would spray him with hairspray I think to keep the stuff on him so it didn't get all over the police car. Was interesting but it was only a short bit about the paintball. I think the show was about less than lethal weapons used by police

[Futo Inu]

GRD, I would like my picture taken with you, since you are now the pope. A paintball to the eye could =no more eye. That IS "grave bodily harm" in my book (though I agree with most everything else you said).

[El Rojo]

If it were some random paintballing, unless they have you completely surrounded, you are going to get this question at your trial. "Could you have turned away from them and walked away?" You are going to have to answer that question. The problem with this whole scenario of malicous paintball gangs is that it rides the border of being something very potentially dangerous and not. What it is going to come down to is someone is going to have to be the test case. If one or two dumb kids are shooting at me with paintball guns, I probably am not going to be the test case. I will withdraw and call the cops. If they don't give me much choice, this might be one of the only times I could see using the old warning shot. I think the sight of your "victim" pulling a handgun and making that loud noise with it might convince the paintballers they are in over their heads.

Now as far as this specific situation goes, the kid didn't deserve to die obviously. However, lots of kids now a days don't have much respect and seem to think they are invincible. It is situations like this that teach some kids some real quick lessons in respect. They think they are real tough until they see someone get shot or get shot themselves. Tough lesson.