[Drjones]

I've been hearing about a bill that will require water meters to be installed in several small cities around my city, at a cost of $5,000 per meter, required to be paid by the homeowner.

This bill and the meters will supposedly "help conserve water."

I can understand conservation and of course do not advocate needless waste of anything (except for the wasting of liberals........sorry....had to stick that in!!! :D ) but excuse me, I see something VERY wrong with the govt. FORCING you to pay $5,000 for a meter and then limiting your water usage.

So essentially, if you do not pay the $5,000 fee, tax, whatever, then you will presumably have your water shut off. In other words, the govt is taking it upon themselves to levy a heavy tax upon and heavily regulate the usage of the second most important compound necessary for life. (Second to air.)

What next, sunlight meters??? Oxygen meters?????

Opinions?

[Leatherneck]

It's probably worse than that, DR. The .gov, under eminent domain I believe, can force ALL residents to join the commune...I mean water distribution system. It's for the communal good, you see. If you refuse, they put a lien on your property and eventually take it from you.

Sweet dreams, kids...:fire:

TC
TFL Survivor

[Zak Smith]

When you bought your home, did you buy the water rights too? Chances are the answer is "no."

-z

[cuchulainn]

I'm confused.

If you're already on municiple water, you've got a meter, and are paying for the service of it being piped to your house.

If you're on a private well or private spring, then there's no reason for the meter.

Are they:

1) forcing people who now are on private wells/springs to get on the municiple service.

or

2) forcing people to meter their usage of private wells/springs.



I grew up on well water, and the muniple water pipes didn't make it down my folks road until I was grown. But the county gave them the choice to stay on the well or get on the county water.

[TheeBadOne]

Do you currently live in an area that has municiple water provided but does not meter your use? Do you currently get one flat fee and can use all the water you want? If so; WoW! All the places I've ever lived/visited have water meters for city/town provided water. Wells aren't metered.

[Waitone]

First, I'd refrain from getting huffy until you complete step 2.

Step two, pick up the phone and call the relevant city gov'ts and ask if what you heard is true. If true then you can get huffy. Might also inquire as to how the meter will help conserve water. Sounds like a demand monitor and limiter to me.

Optional step 3, if you are or will be a homeowner in the affected area make an inquiry as to the policy of drilling a well. $5,000 gets you a good ways down.

Few other points. No one bitched when Algore and his buds passed a law telling you how much water you can use in a toilet flush or water usage in washing machines.

Another point, water systems and sewers are net revenue generators for cities so they have a vested interest in compelling compliance and limiting substitution.

[Mike Irwin]

If you're on a city system, as opposed to a well, yeah, they can do it.

As for the conservation end of it, you'll pay a certain amount per unit of water used. Some systems measure in cubic yards, some in gallons, some in tons.

When you're paying per unit, instead of a flat fee, you're going to be a lot more conscious of your water usage, ergo the conservation end of it.

I'd say that the municipal system is less interested in helping you as a person conserve water than ensuring that the system is able to serve the entire community by ensuring that there's enough treatment capacity, both of potable water and of sewage.

Adding to either end of the infrastructure is horrificially expensive, and if you can keep usage down by making people conscious of the amout of water that they're paying for, the municipality may be able to forestall system upgrades that can cost millions of dollars.

As for closing off your municipal water and putting in a well...

May or may not be possible depending on the size of your community and the size of the lots.

In most municipal areas ground water is contaminated, and you'd pay an amazing amount of money installing the equipment needed to make it safe.

[Sergeant Bob]

Dr I've been hearing about a bill that will require water meters to be installed in several small cities around my city, at a cost of $5,000 per meter, required to be paid by the homeowner.
If you are buying your water from an outside source, I'd suppose they'd have every right to charge you for the amount of water used (although the price for the meter seems a bit high and the source is monopolized). If you now have your own well or they prohibit you from having one then it's definite Barbara Streisand. You know what they say about fighting city hall.

My Brother-in-law and sister are going through the same thing with a sewer system (although they have a perfectly serviceable septic system now). They have to hook-up at a cost of $10,000.

Zak When you bought your home, did you buy the water rights too? Chances are the answer is "no."
Who would he buy the "water rights" from? What gives them the right to own his "water rights"? If someone else owns the water on/under his land, do they then have the right to remove all the water, therefore, denying him any water? Just because it's a law, doesn't make it right.

[El Tejon]

If you want to dance, you have to pay the band. If you want to shower, after dancing, you have to pay your own way.

Dr., like hunting fees, or BLM land, or park fees, or shooting range fees, or gasoline taxes, I do no understand why one would be angry over having to pay your own way and pull the wagon. However, I'm from Indiana (only 12 electoral votes and politically marginalized) so I am unfamiliar with being given something for nothing.

Pay your bill or start digging. Of course, if you lived around here, the water would be coming to you whether you wanted it or not!:D

[Mike Irwin]

"If someone else owns the water on/under his land, do they then have the right to remove all the water, therefore, denying him any water? Just because it's a law, doesn't make it right."

Water rights in some areas are dealt with the same as mineral rights. In many areas of the country when you buy a home you buy land rights, but you are NOT purchasing the mineral rights.

[Graystar]

When NYC moved to meters the city came in and installed the meter at no charge. The flat-fee for water was removed from the property tax and I started getting a water bill.

Light users of water saw this as a good thing because they could pay less for water. Of course, heavy water users weren't as thrilled.

If you don't have water on your property then the fact is that *someone else* is controlling your water...be it the government or a private company. At least with the government controlling the flow of water you can vote and try to change things you don't like.

[Mike Irwin]

You know, come to think of it, if you're on a municipal system that's charging flat rates for water, that means that it's an OLD system.

If they are charging $5,000 per meter, a lot of that money may be going to system upgrades.

Here's a kicker for you.

My Father is municipal engineer (civil engineer) in a community in Pennsylvania that was founded in the late 1700s, and really started growing in the 1800s as it was on the Pennsylvania Rail Road main line.

They've had municipal water for a very long time. So long, in fact, that a few years ago they were digging up a street to repair a water main break, and found that it was a wooden main...

[AZTOY]

$5,000 per meter

I can get a well for $5,000!

Also the well water tastes alot better, then Tucson city water.:neener:




The Arivaca Range owns the water right for Arivaca. We have a few rules about water use too. You can't build on land under 5 acres:D and you can't water a farm bigger then 2 acres!

[Lone_Gunman]

There is no way a meter will cost $5,000.

What will they do with the people who can't afford it (and that would be the majority of the town)? Let them die of dehydration?

[biere]

I live in the sticks and last summer city water lines were run down my road. I had the option of getting a meter put in for 1300 bucks or not having a meter put in. Everyone up until this time was either on a cistern or a well, I have a well and still use it. This is simply a meter and a pigtail to tie into, I have to run a few hundred yards of line to actually hook it up.

I got the water meter just because I wanted a back up in case something happens to my well.

For the extra money they could easily be doing upgrades to the system or even the facility. The facility I am hooked to has the ability to feed a lot more houses, but if on an old system I could see where it would cost that much.

As for the gov. saying "DO IT", a friend has a sidewalk in his yard and he lives on a corner lot. He had to pay when the city sent workers over to redo the sidewalk.

You live where you choose, you sign away your rights as you choose.

I still signed some rights away, but at least I can build a shed without pulling a permit and paying for an inspector to come tell me how to build something.

As for making people pay such a large amount, in many cases you might see low interest government loans or something to help out those without money. Of course I have seen some stories where it seemed like the city simply priced the people out of their homes because they wanted the house or land.

[Baba Louie]

Water rights...

Water is gold here in the desert and Mike is right... you buy a piece of dirt to develop you'd better go purchase some amount of water rights before you build something, in fact its a must. Not in Clark County but in the rural portions of the state.

In the Reno area there are companies that do nothing but buy and sell water rights to them what needs it/them... "Yes Mr Baba Louie, how many acre/ft are you looking to purchase. Hmmmmm?"

Wells are limited to a minimum property size of 1.25 acres, you need a state well permit before you begin to dig and a little known piece of fine print states that the state CAN force a meter on you and charge $/gal.

The $5K is (more than likely) a number to help defray the cost of any water treatment facility upkeep/maintenance.

With Lake Mead some 60 ft. below norm due to the drought... water is gold.

And yes, if you're presently on a well and the water district brings a main into your neighborhood, they can and do force you to cap your well and connect to the districts pipes and charge you accordingly.

Interestingly enough, a water aquifer flows below Las Vegas some 12' - 15' in certain parts of the valley...

Hence the name Las Vegas (the meadows), a wet spot in the desert where the railroad stopped to fill their engines years ago, because water seeped out of the ground in two or three spots.

Also interesting, and on the same subject, all of the mountain ranges in NV (which is 85% owned by the Fed Govt) that are high enough for snowfall/water accumulation are owned and managed by... Uncle Sam.

Hmmmm. I wonder why?

When they gotcha by the short and curlies... you dance to their tune.

Adios

edited to add... water mineral AND Avigation rights belong to the gov't here. Yes avigation, the air space over your property is controlled by... the FAA. Well, at least here in NV it is. Should you choose to build a high-rise building, get the FAA to bless it first (typically only used in areas near airports... for obvious reasons), but quite often the city/county require you to sign away any "avigation" rights on your property to get building permits for large projects... I've never seen it done to small residential units, unless you live, again, near the AFB or any of the airports... its a sound (decibel) thing.

[Larry Ashcraft]

Been going through these issues at home lately. We have a well, and since it is capable of pumping 500 gallons per minute, it is classified as a "irrigation well". We were required join an "augmentation association" a few years ago because of the Kansas-Colorado water suit, so we are required to METER and PAY FOR our WELL WATER! The meter cost about $200, the association fees are about $250 per year, and the water was about $3 per acre foot.

We only use the well for household use, but if we downgraded the well to a household one, our property would lose lots of value (wells are a precious commodity in Colorado, permits are rarely issued). So we keep the well as an irrigation well and only order one acre foot per year.

Now, with last year's drought, they decided to cut all irrigation wells back to 50%, so they sent us a notice that we can use .29 acre foot in the summer months and .21 acre foot in the summer months. And if we go over, they can shut us off, or charge $200 per acre foot. Last Friday a car with a State of Colorado Division of Water Resources sticker on it drove up, and the guy inside read our meter and infirmed me that we were at 85% of our summer usage, so now we are scrambling around trying to get another half acre foot.

BTW, the state of Colorado owns all runoff water in the state. It is technically illegal to catch rain water in a barrel because the state owns the runoff from your house. We have springs on our place that we can't use because prior water rights are senior to ours. We own 900 feet of the Arkansas River, but that just means we own the ground underneath the river, the water belongs to the state.

OK, rant off for now, I'll think of more.

[Larry Ashcraft]

Oh yeah, we have the option of tapping into the rural water system. $4500 tap fee + 150+ yards of trenching and pipe. Probably $8-10K.:banghead:

As for making people pay such a large amount, in many cases you might see low interest government loans or something to help out those without money.
Normally what they do is put a lien (with interest) against their homes, so they eventually get the money.

[feedthehogs]

Some things are meant to be free. Water being one of them.

The delivery system is something else.

You buy a piece of property, it has water on it, you dig a well, its yours.

But big brother wants, correction, "needs" to control it so there is plenty for all. (alternative form of government?)
Oh and by the way, if they want your property for any reason, they take it.

If I hear the phrase,"for the good of everyone" anymore, I'm going to puke.

God forbid there might be little microbial particles swimming around.
Quick, cut off the water to the farms, people and wildlife.
Better they all should die than the microbial tree huggers.

Still think this is the land of the free?

We maybe free'er than other countries.

S.S. card, drivers license, ccw permit, vehicle registration, etc.....................
Can I see your papers please?

[Mike Irwin]

"God forbid there might be little microbial particles swimming around."

If you ever have the chance, visit Franklin Square in Philadelphia. It's an excavation/creation of the area of Mulberry Alley where Benjamin Franklin lived.

It's pretty amazing to walk out into the back yard of what was Franklin's house, and look at the stone markers on the ground...

"Water Well, 1785"

"Privy, 1785"

Separated by less than 25 feet of ground. :barf:

It's little wonder that cholera and typhus would routinely roar through communities and wipe out as much as 1/4 of the population in the summer and fall months.

[Double Naught Spy]

Hooking up a sewer system is not a comparable project to replacing a water meter.

So Drjones, you are intimating that on the basis of a rumor about which you have no primary information that the government owns us because they are supposedly going to put in new water meters at $5000 a piece and charge it to the customers and that the reasoning is that the meters are going to save water?

Just how many parts of that rumor strike you as hokey?

These meters must be from the military at that price, just like $400 toilet seats they put in some of the big bombers for the crew.

Let's see, residential water meters cost no more than about $500 for the really delux models. Commercial meters can cost up to about $1100 each and less than half that amount for smaller versions. Even if installed by plumbers working after hours at twice their normal rates, you should still come in at several thousand dollars less.

Just how is it that a water meter is supposed to save water? Was this information provided? The flow rate might be able to be handled by the meter, but adjusting flow rate does not actually conserve water, but if lessened, then it may take a little longer to fill your bathtub.

It sounds like your source is either incorrect or pulling your leg to get a rise out of you and it looks like it worked.

Where we are, the cost of the original meter is charged to the builder of a new home who includes the cost in the price of the home when it sells. The meter belongs to the city. Should something happen to the meter through no fault of the homeowner, or it needed to be upgraded, that is covered by the city.

There is no reason to go crying foul and complaining about the government on an issue that is just a rumor when there are so many other actual issues to complain about relevant to the government..

[suijurisfreeman]

Before I bought my 20 arces in southcentral Kentucky 4 years ago, I made sure that I got the water rights, mineral rights, timber rights, etc, I even checked out the chain of title back to 1863 when the Confederates burned the Monroe County Courthouse down, all the records were lost. I've since checked it out all the way back to the original 'land patent' through the BLM. There'es no way in hell that I would own property that I didn't have the water rights to! I'm not 'hooked-up' to any public utilities, period! No water, no gas, no electricity, no phone - nothing! I heat and cook with wood, use kerosene for lighting, 'catch' my rain water, use a composting toliet and attempt to grow alot of my own food. There are no utility lines, water lines, gas lines, etc that even run down the road my property is on. A couple of years ago they sent out questionaires for 911, I never filled it out, they sent two people from 911 out to get the information from me, I met them at the entrance to my property (of course I was armed) and when asked for the information they needed, I replied, "no information is available!" They left empty handed! :evil: Don't want no stinkin' utilities, don't need no stinkin' utilities, ain't gonna be 'metered' by no one! :cuss:

[Drjones]

Jesus, I fail to post a link and suddenly I'm a delusional liar?

:rolleyes:

Here: http://www.sacbee.com/state_wire/story/7340220p-8284341c.html

Unfortunately it doesn't say anything about the $5k pricetag, but I heard that on the radio.

Don't exactly get my news from the village idiot, believe it or not. :rolleyes:

[Malone LaVeigh]

The bill in question is aimed at those cities that get water from the Central Valley Project, a Federal project administered by the US Bureau of Reclamation. There's a lot to be said about the way rich agribiz is being subsidized and how they circumvented regulations that were supposed to protect small farmers. there's also a lot to be said about the environmental damage caused by the out-of-control federal agency. But asking municipal users to meter their use is not "proof positive that the govt. owns you."

If you want to know why the govt. is involved in water development in the west, read Cadillac Desert by Marc Reisner for a good account of the string of failures by private agencies (some of them catastrophic) to develop and deliver water.

[Mike Irwin]

Double Naught,

Some of us have already speculated on the mechanisms for conservation, the reasons why the meters might cost so much if they do, in fact, cost $5,000.

I do agree, however, that the concept of the government "owning you" based on a meter being required is a little extreme.

[roscoe]

Plus, the government will probably force you to drink flouridated water! That government will stop at nothing to introduce foreign substances into our precious bodily fluids!

Have you ever seen a commie drink a glass of water?

[Hal]

What's next air, sunlight? I believe the EPA already has that covered:barf:

[TarpleyG]

Geezz suijurisfreeman, you must be posting from work or something then. Takin it to the extreme. I like that. Of course I'd miss my DSL and DTV but what the h3ll. You only live once.

GT

[cordex]

If you want to live in a space station and you need to get air shipped in, you've gotta pay for it.
If you want to live in a desert and you need to get water shipped in, you've gotta pay for it.

"Air should be free!" and "Water should be as free as air!" doesn't apply everywhere.

Refridgeration is free in the arctic and heating is free on the equator. Doesn't mean the opposite is or should be true.

[Double Naught Spy]

Mike Irwin, what I understood from the posts in the thread is that water meters do not cost $5000. There are all sorts of other services that cost money, but not the water meter itself. The description included nothing about tapping, running new lines, massive system upgrades, or anything else...just $5000 for a meter to be put in.

Drjones indicated that it would be $5000 per property and so I assume that each property would get a new meter. As he also indicated that the meter was going to several surrounding town, I have to wonder if the $5000 meter is not an individual unit being installed to provide a more accurate assessment of just how much water is being used in each of the towns. In short, it would be the town's water meter. The expense of the upgrade would no doubt get passed on to the users, but if there are 500 properties in the town, then that would be $10 per property.

And you are very correct in that it is extreme to be basing being owned by the government based on water meters. It is even more extreme when the argument isn't even being made with actual information, just a rumor.

[hops]

Water meters by themselves do not mean that the gov.org now owns you. I lived in the PRK during the drought years of 1977-1980 and 1988 - 1992. In Sacramento for example, houses and many apartments did not have water meters even though they were on city water. Some law was passed to ensure that each unit in a condo or appratment got its own water meter. Most of this was to enforce water rationing and to ensure the So Cal got cheap water from Nor Cal.

I lived in a condo complex, in the bay Area 1988-1996, built in 1979-1980 with 17 water meters that support 20 buildings and irriation. We were fined 6-8k per 2 month water billing cycle (by we I mean the association which paid the water bill). There was no way we could fairly pass the fines on to the users. Individual water meters would have been a good thing.

Gov.org owns you the day you hook up to the municipal water system.
Considering the amount of ground water contamination in the PRK in certain areas I can see why they are forcing people to hook up to municipal systems.

However, the State of Colorado owning rain water before it hits the ground is B.S.